C14 - Titania, Protector of Argoth

[Protoaddict]

Has instant effect on the board, combos well with mana bases we are all using, works well with format staples like crucible and fastbond. Could this be a finisher in some green list that is looking for a non combo way to go off, because most decks that could run this basically just need to put a copy in their list just as their lists already are and they will get plenty of value off this. Every time you sac a wastelands you get a lodestone body, thats going to end some games quickly. Only knock i have against it is the creature type, but it seems like an absolute game ending effect to me.

[Demagoguery]

This card has a lot of very strong effects attached to it but it's also a five mana double green card which is a touch awkward.

The cool thing is it gives you a ton of value off Fetchlands alone, and goes completely nuts if you can use a Waste/Strip effect, play this, bring that Stripmine  back and kill another land while getting 2 5/3 dudes.

The bad thing is that it's very expensive to cast, in a colour that's not the best, and has 3 toughness making it prone to more removal than normal.

Still though, having the ability to Waste/strip your own land to make multiple 5/3's instantly in one go is pretty big. 

[gkraigher]

I have a commander deck she is going to go in, so I have been thinking about this card all day.

Never once did she cross my mind as playable in competitive play.

Fastbond, however, does make an interesting argument.  The best card she works with is Ghost Quarter, as you can quarter one of your lands for 10 power on the board.
Fetch lands, Wasteland, Strip Mine, and Horizon Canopy are all good too.  Petrified field is interesting too.  Heck, so are the man lands like factory and mutavault. 

But in the end, I think she costs way too much mana.  

[Demagoguery]

But in the end, I think she costs way too much mana.  

I don't think the cost is the issue as much as the colour, since she's kind of like Tezz in that if you basically get one turn with her in play you're probably winning the game since she comes in and makes 10-15 power on the board, with more potentially the next turn or even that turn. Obviously there's ways of playing around her as with the Tezz combo, but it's a really big board presence that she provides that gets out of hand quickly.

The more I think about her, the more I can totally see her being a one of in some Gush-Pyro shell since right now their whole win condition is 4x Pyromancer and she can easily serve as a bigger fifth copy.

[Protoaddict]

The reason I like her is because most decks can just play her and are already using all the tools to get the full effect out of her, since most decks run fetches and some run wastes.

I think shes best in a list that is trying to force a fair game, or as a tool against that. Oh your fastbond gush combo got shut out? ok well here is the back up plan that is also still perfectly fine if things are going as planned, either way she's winning the game if they cannot answer her.

[sirgog]

This isn't Tezzeret.

Tezz wins the game on the spot if you control Time Vault, or Voltaic Key if you have 1 mana. He also wins the game next turn if you haven't drawn either of those two cards and can protect him from Bolts and Pyroblasts for a turn.

Titania provides a serious threat if you have drawn a fetchland or Wasteland or Strip Mine this game, and can protect her until her ETB trigger resolves (and only minor value otherwise). That's actually not a small ask - I expect she will be Bolted a lot with the land return trigger on the stack if people try to use her.

[Zeksagmak]

I'd like her a lot more if she was a x/4 to dodge bolt.  Other than that, she does get around most of the removal.

[Demagoguery]

Sirgog that's assuming you're always casting her at 5 mana with no way to protect her. If you simply just wait a turn, or draw her later in the game, you can always slow roll a fetch or Waste to get instant 5/3s into play without worrying about the ETB trigger. Heck, if you have an open Wastland in play when you cast her, you can just Waste one of your lands in response and make 2x 5/3s and get that Bolt out of their hand, while bringing back another land so you've essentially only lost the Waste for your troubles.

[Protoaddict]

I expect she will be Bolted a lot with the land return trigger on the stack if people try to use her.

That is still a trade where you come out of the deal with a 5/3 they likely have to deal with for doing nothing.

Like I said, I cant imagine this being central to a strategy but as a backup kill card out of the board it could work.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

Guys. You have to Zuran Orb your lands away obviously! 

[vaughnbros]

I expect she will be Bolted a lot with the land return trigger on the stack if people try to use her.

That is still a trade where you come out of the deal with a 5/3 they likely have to deal with for doing nothing.

He's pointing out there are windows to bolt her where you don't get to keep a 5/3.  This is a 5 mana card that can be 1 for 1'ed by any creature removal spell, and loses in combat/card advantage to a number of other 5 mana creature cards.  I'm going to have to go with unplayable.

[Demagoguery]

I expect she will be Bolted a lot with the land return trigger on the stack if people try to use her.

That is still a trade where you come out of the deal with a 5/3 they likely have to deal with for doing nothing.

He's pointing out there are windows to bolt her where you don't get to keep a 5/3.  This is a 5 mana card that can be 1 for 1'ed by any creature removal spell, and loses in combat/card advantage to a number of other 5 mana creature cards.  I'm going to have to go with unplayable.

The thing is the window to not keep a 5/3 is so narrow that if you fall pray to it you're probably just playing poorly or would have lost regardless. There should never be a case where she's 1 for 1'ed by a removal spell, because at worst you'll get a land back from your graveyard or make other 5/3s with lands that are already in play even with the CIP trigger on the stack, you should always come out ahead.


The advantage she has over other creatures who cost 5 mana is that she provides an overwhelming board presence very quickly.

Again, look at it this way, you play her with a Wasteland untapped in play, you can respond to their removal spell and make 1-2 5/3s with that Wasteland alone. If they don't kill her instantly you can bring back a Fetch or Waste and make even more 5/3s... Like she can bring out 20 power the turn she comes out easily. That's not even jumping through hoops, it's having a single Wasteland in play when she comes out and a fetch or waste in the bin.

The second ability triggers when lands are put into your graveyard from play, not the other way around.

[vaughnbros]

I expect she will be Bolted a lot with the land return trigger on the stack if people try to use her.

That is still a trade where you come out of the deal with a 5/3 they likely have to deal with for doing nothing.

He's pointing out there are windows to bolt her where you don't get to keep a 5/3.  This is a 5 mana card that can be 1 for 1'ed by any creature removal spell, and loses in combat/card advantage to a number of other 5 mana creature cards.  I'm going to have to go with unplayable.

The thing is the window to not keep a 5/3 is so narrow that if you fall pray to it you're probably just playing poorly or would have lost regardless. There should never be a case where she's 1 for 1'ed by a removal spell, because at worst you'll get a land back from your graveyard or make other 5/3s with lands that are already in play even with the CIP trigger on the stack, you should always come out ahead.


The advantage she has over other creatures who cost 5 mana is that she provides an overwhelming board presence very quickly.

Again, look at it this way, you play her with a Wasteland untapped in play, you can respond to their removal spell and make 1-2 5/3s with that Wasteland alone. If they don't kill her instantly you can bring back a Fetch or Waste and make even more 5/3s... Like she can bring out 20 power the turn she comes out easily. That's not even jumping through hoops, it's having a single Wasteland in play when she comes out and a fetch or waste in the bin.

The second ability triggers when lands are put into your graveyard from play, not the other way around.

You are talking about having 6 mana if you want her and an untapped waste/fetch to prevent her from being instantly 1 for 1'ed, if you want to protect yourself from a counterspell even more.  Now you are in the realm of wurmcoil engine/consecrated sphinx/____ titan, there are seemingly infinite numbers of better 6 drops in magic that see no vintage play.  You need to have more fetches and wastes to create more 5/3's, so this is not "easily" 20 power unless you are completely and utterly mana flooded or have her AND crucible wastelock in play (the crucible-wastelock is probably enough to win without her).

This is not even looking at her colors or creature type either.  What deck is she going into?  Are you really going to try and argue that this card is worth building around?

[Protoaddict]

If you have 6 mana sources in play, one of them being a strip or a wasteland, and she resolves, you are likely winning the game. With the first trigger on the stack, if you opponent trys to bolt her, you can still put your strip onto the stack and resolve it to get a dude and destroy one of their lands, and then get a land back. She provides a lot of value for 5 mana, even if she herself is fragile.

No one is expecting players to jump through hoops for this card, and I don't think most lists that can play her will have to because those lists are already running fetches and waste effects. Like I said, I see this as a potential finisher that is maybe a 1 of in a sideboard or even in a zoo list, probably along size Pridemages and Noble Hierarchs, which is a deck that floats in and out of the meta all the time. She is a good trump creature in the mirror matches for that list, since once again that list is already playing all the cards needed to make her good.

[serracollector]

I now have all i need for my green devotion fastbond exploration courser of kruphix zuran orb crucible enchantress deck. Fear it.

[vaughnbros]

No one is expecting players to jump through hoops for this card, and I don't think most lists that can play her will have to because those lists are already running fetches and waste effects. Like I said, I see this as a potential finisher that is maybe a 1 of in a sideboard or even in a zoo list, probably along size Pridemages and Noble Hierarchs, which is a deck that floats in and out of the meta all the time. She is a good trump creature in the mirror matches for that list, since once again that list is already playing all the cards needed to make her good.

So we are on the same page.  Maybe a 1 of in a sideboard or in a zoo list = unplayable.  Zoo isn't a deck in vintage, and as such the zoo mirror definitely isn't something people need to worry about.  There are occasionally some BWG decks, but again not prevalent enough to worry about the mirror.  Honestly its been a while since even noble fish has had a presence in the meta (basically since Mike Noble last played vintage).  This card is marginally better than Precursor Golem for green decks and as such I wouldn't be surprised if it saw a lot of modern play, but likely not good enough for legacy, and almost definitely not good in vintage.

EDIT: Forgot these cards are not modern legal.  For some reason unbeknownst to me.

[MaximumCDawg]

Meh.  I think we're past the point where a 5 drop that gives you a 4/4 a Juggernauts or two when it resolves (sometimes) is playable.

Gawd that sounds weird to say, but so help me it seems to be true.

[Demagoguery]

Like she does a ton of stuff guys, she's not any one part of herself and she can be placed into existing decks as a single copy without forcing you to build around her.

Let's look at all she does:

- Returns a land once she comes into play. This doesn't even have to be a fetch or Waste to make a dude, sometimes it's enough to bring back a big utility land that was destroyed earlier.

- She can make multiple 5/3's in a single turn, while also generally making one or more when she comes into play.

- She provides protection against Waste/Strip effects. I know most people will say "But you're casting a 5 drop why do you need mana then?" but what if you cast her off something like a Mana Vault or Lotus, which leaves you with less lands in play. Facing down a Crucible + Waste lock is pretty scary but if you can get a critical turn where you bring her down all of a sudden you're up a land and they give you guys each time they Waste a land.

I don't know, but the sum of her parts seem really good to me and you don't have to go all in on her to make her viable. She's honestly just a threat they have to counter or kill pretty much immediately or be over run at a very quick rate.

[MaximumCDawg]

Like she does a ton of stuff guys, she's not any one part of herself and she can be placed into existing decks as a single copy without forcing you to build around her.

Let's look at all she does:

- Returns a land once she comes into play. This doesn't even have to be a fetch or Waste to make a dude, sometimes it's enough to bring back a big utility land that was destroyed earlier.

- She can make multiple 5/3's in a single turn, while also generally making one or more when she comes into play.

- She provides protection against Waste/Strip effects. I know most people will say "But you're casting a 5 drop why do you need mana then?" but what if you cast her off something like a Mana Vault or Lotus, which leaves you with less lands in play. Facing down a Crucible + Waste lock is pretty scary but if you can get a critical turn where you bring her down all of a sudden you're up a land and they give you guys each time they Waste a land.

I don't know, but the sum of her parts seem really good to me and you don't have to go all in on her to make her viable. She's honestly just a threat they have to counter or kill pretty much immediately or be over run at a very quick rate.

I suppose its a pretty serious finsher for your mono-green Vintage deck, sure.

[sirgog]

I expect she will be Bolted a lot with the land return trigger on the stack if people try to use her.

That is still a trade where you come out of the deal with a 5/3 they likely have to deal with for doing nothing.

He's pointing out there are windows to bolt her where you don't get to keep a 5/3.  This is a 5 mana card that can be 1 for 1'ed by any creature removal spell, and loses in combat/card advantage to a number of other 5 mana creature cards.  I'm going to have to go with unplayable.

It's not getting 1 for 1'ed, it's still a 2 for 1, but 5 mana is a hell of a lot to pay to duress a Bolt/Swords and to get a dead Wasteland or even LoA back.

[H]

If you play this card without Sylvan Safekeeper, I don't know what you are trying to do.  At least add in Knight of the Reliquary, but come on, Ollie is pretty bonkers with this card.

Also, I am not discussing this card in the context of Vintage.  I would actually beg my opponents to play this card versus me in Vintage actually.

[Saya]

a cute card,but only for Legacy Nic Fit.