[C14] - Containment Priest

[boggyb]

Vintage is full of broken plays so it stands to reason that the only way to make playable decks outside of the 6K price highlander variety you need to print something that really hits them hard.

Stands to what reason? I don't see a good reason that this is the only way to do it.

I mean I agree that this is a true statement: you make a card for one archetype that hoses another archetype, and it will improve the first archetype's matchup against the second's. That doesn't speak at all to notions of improving diversity, increasing complexity, encouraging and rewarding difficult decision-making, etc. It might improve diversity, but only in the narrowest sense of making underrepresented decks powerful enough to compete -- except if they're doing so in an unhealthy format, that kind of diversity is not really valuable.

The question of laziness of design is entirely separate from the question of whether or not there should be cards printed that help out underpowered decks. Like I said, I agree that Dredge and Shops suck. (I'm a bit more on the fence about Oath, but I see your point.) I just don't think it really makes the game any more interesting to make cards that bump heads so narrowly like this -- it's just the flip side of the same problem.

Knight, for example, is terrifically well-designed. Courser of Kruphix is as well, in its own formats. They both do things to improve certain decks, but do so in an interesting way.

[MaximumCDawg]

Couldn't disagree more.

It is beyond me how you would believe this card somehow contributes to a diverse format.

It is beyond me how you can only view things from one viewpoint.  This card doesn't go directly into a single tier 1 deck, so its automatically going to create additional diversity.

Are you familiar with UW Flash, Blue Angels, Bomberman? You're the biggest fucking troll.

Hey guys I think you're getting upset over a children's card game again.

The question of laziness of design is entirely separate from the question of whether or not there should be cards printed that help out underpowered decks. Like I said, I agree that Dredge and Shops suck. (I'm a bit more on the fence about Oath, but I see your point.) I just don't think it really makes the game any more interesting to make cards that bump heads so narrowly like this -- it's just the flip side of the same problem.

I still dunno what you mean by "lazy."  Not demanding of much mental energy to construct?  As in, it isn't very creative to staple existing effects onto legs and call it a day?  I mean, sure, that might be true, but look at how "lazy" the original Moxen were.  

[Demagoguery]

I really don't think this card hurts diversity, but rather adds to it. The reason for this is that in all honesty White isn't that strong of a colour right now in Vintage, and giving it solid hate cards like this can really boost it's performance, seeing as this does a lot of good against multiple strong decks in the format.

The other reason I don't think it will hurt diversity is because you can play around it pretty well in most of the decks that are afraid of it, so it rewards a player who plays intelligently against it. Dredge has double Dark Blast tricks, Oath has Abrupt Decay, and the Tinker decks all have some form of removal whether it be Bolt, StP, or Dismember. This card will stop a lot of blow out plays, but as long as the player on the other end is willing to play patiently they can get around this card, which is good because it reduces variance and rewards consistency.

I honestly don't believe this card will kill any one deck in the format, but I do think it provides a good boost for what may be one of the weaker colours currently, and makes some of the tier 2.0 Junk and mono white decks have a better game against some of their worse match ups.  

In short, read this card as a counter spell for specific effects that can also be played as a hate bear, though I really don't like it in that mode since it gives your opponents a lot more outs, since they can draw Pulse, Deluge, etc. Additionally there will be some fun tricks in those Junk decks where they leave up 1 mana and then play this off a Spirit Guide when their opponent thinks they're tapped out and didn't tutor up instant speed removal or simply have enough mana for it. So yea, it's a counter spell for a specific effect that can be countered by instant speed removal, it's hardly stifling, and just like any conditional counter it can be played around.

Heck, I could see Yawgmoth's Bargain coming off the list soon.

One of us, one of us...

Honestly if they unrestrict Bargain oddly enough I think the right play in a Bargain deck would be to not play blue or at most splash for Recall/Walk, but you already have so much draw power and disruption in black that I don't think it would be worth it to hurt your consistency... Especially with how good main board Nature's Claims become in that deck along with Unmask.

[vaughnbros]

Couldn't disagree more.

It is beyond me how you would believe this card somehow contributes to a diverse format.

It is beyond me how you can only view things from one viewpoint.  This card doesn't go directly into a single tier 1 deck, so its automatically going to create additional diversity.

Are you familiar with UW Flash, Blue Angels, Bomberman?

None of those decks have been performing that well lately, but sure if you want to consider them tier 1.  I mean restoration angel is great with this card... oh wait.  And all of those decks already crush dredge and oath with main deck cage.  Can they play the card? Well they do have white mana.  Does it actually change their MU percentages?  Probably not.

[TVand]

(side note: note that this card can be cast with oath on the stack as a way to make them mill themselves)

This card, like Grafdigger's Cage, replaces the part where the creature actually comes into play.  The Oath player would still stop milling themselves upon revealing the creature.  Unless you didn't mean to make them mill their whole library, just part of it.  In which case, sure, that works.

[boggyb]

Maybe "lazy" is too cruel of a word -- I was originally borrowing it from someone else's post -- but I just mean that printing narrow answer cards to solve problems is the easiest design task possible. It's much more difficult to design cards that, rather than directly shut down an existing oppressive strategy by reacting to it, proactively open up new angles of attack for other decks by enabling powerful new interactions that require tradeoffs to incorporate.

[boggyb]

(side note: note that this card can be cast with oath on the stack as a way to make them mill themselves)

This card, like Grafdigger's Cage, replaces the part where the creature actually comes into play.  The Oath player would still stop milling themselves upon revealing the creature.

Or just choose not to Oath. It's a "may."

[TVand]

(side note: note that this card can be cast with oath on the stack as a way to make them mill themselves)

This card, like Grafdigger's Cage, replaces the part where the creature actually comes into play.  The Oath player would still stop milling themselves upon revealing the creature.

Or just choose not to Oath. It's a "may."

Right, they do have that choice.  I guess there are scenarios where you go ahead and mill yourself a bunch anyways (like if you have Yawgmoth's Will or easy access to it).  That's actually an interesting difference between this and Cage.  You would never make that play with Cage on the board because you couldn't then YawgWill all those cards you milled.

[Stormanimagus]

(side note: note that this card can be cast with oath on the stack as a way to make them mill themselves)

This card, like Grafdigger's Cage, replaces the part where the creature actually comes into play.  The Oath player would still stop milling themselves upon revealing the creature.  Unless you didn't mean to make them mill their whole library, just part of it.  In which case, sure, that works.

yeah, only meant part. But depending on your luck, you could mill away key cards. Also, If they put the oath trigger on the stack and you respond to this don't they now HAVE to mill because they already decided to put it on the stack?

-Storm

[Stormanimagus]

that Dredge and Shops suck.

Wait, do you mean to tell me you think they are bad decks?

[diophan]

(side note: note that this card can be cast with oath on the stack as a way to make them mill themselves)

This card, like Grafdigger's Cage, replaces the part where the creature actually comes into play.  The Oath player would still stop milling themselves upon revealing the creature.  Unless you didn't mean to make them mill their whole library, just part of it.  In which case, sure, that works.

yeah, only meant part. But depending on your luck, you could mill away key cards. Also, If they put the oath trigger on the stack and you respond to this don't they now HAVE to mill because they already decided to put it on the stack?

-Storm

If my Magic Online memory serves me correctly, they put it on the stack and upon resolution decide whether or not to use it, so that wouldn't work.

[MrGlantz]

In Legacy, this is probably GANGBUSTERS.  It gives D&T an incredible weapon against Sneak and Show.

Well Death & Taxes already had a very good Sneak and Show matchup. Running Mangara, Karakas, and Revokers all in the main will do that for you Especially when they can all come in off Show N Tell as well.

------------------------

I think that this card is alright for what it does. I agree with other posters that it's likely worse than Grafdigger's Cage, but adding another hatebear never hurts. Eventually WOTC is bound to print enough hatebears that it could become a consistent deck in Vintage. This isn't what mono white needed to be strong, but it helps a lot.

Mono white really needs a solid 1 drop bear to pair up with Dryad Militant. That's what I'm really waiting for.

[dragzz]

This also allows you to blink your opponents creatures out of existence via cards like flickerwisp, which could be a surprisingly good strategy.

[MaximumCDawg]

...and we're now repeating the same critical insights at least once per page.  We have reached MTGSalvation mass on this thread, which is quite an impressive feat for a card on the Drain!

[John Cox]

I like that it's exiled, so you can't just oath and draw the creature. Ala maniac, -nice card.

[boggyb]

(side note: note that this card can be cast with oath on the stack as a way to make them mill themselves)

This card, like Grafdigger's Cage, replaces the part where the creature actually comes into play.  The Oath player would still stop milling themselves upon revealing the creature.  Unless you didn't mean to make them mill their whole library, just part of it.  In which case, sure, that works.

yeah, only meant part. But depending on your luck, you could mill away key cards. Also, If they put the oath trigger on the stack and you respond to this don't they now HAVE to mill because they already decided to put it on the stack?

-Storm

No. You choose to Oath or not on resolution.

And no I'm not saying Shops and Dredge are bad decks, only that I think it sucks that one has to devote 75-80% of sideboard space to hope to compete with decks that usually only represent 20-35% of the metagame.

[evouga]

Maybe "lazy" is too cruel of a word -- I was originally borrowing it from someone else's post -- but I just mean that printing narrow answer cards to solve problems is the easiest design task possible. It's much more difficult to design cards that, rather than directly shut down an existing oppressive strategy by reacting to it, proactively open up new angles of attack for other decks by enabling powerful new interactions that require tradeoffs to incorporate.

Lazy was my word, and I stand by it, for exactly the reason you've cited.

Here's a card I designed in 30 seconds. It would totally shake up Vintage. It would finally stick it to the evil Big Blue decks, and evil Dredge, and evil Shops. It would also increase format diversity: just stick 4 of these and some Moxen into your favorite Standard deck and you have something ready to take down Vintage champs.

Arbiter of Fairness
W 1/1
Uncounterable, hexproof.
Players can't play more than one spell per turn.
Players can't take extra turns.
Nonbasic lands are Plains.
Players can't play cards from graveyards. Creatures can't enter the battlefield from any zone except the stack.

Is the Priest anywhere near this level? No, of course not. But I'm disappointed every time a new set contains a hatebear that is Vintage-playable only because it hoses the mechanics and interactions that make Vintage Vintage, rather than because it opens up novel proactive, powerful interactions on its own.

[Hrishi]

But I'm disappointed every time a new set contains a hatebear that is Vintage-playable only because it hoses the mechanics and interactions that make Vintage Vintage, rather than because it opens up novel proactive, powerful interactions on its own.

Well said. I agree with this wholeheartedly.

[hashswag]

I look at this as a way to improve diversity. Yes, it's a silver bullet against Oath, but it also opens up the way for decks without any oath hate other than cage to become competitive (e.g. Humans). Vintage diversity suffers because certain decks only have answers in certain colours (such as the lack of enchantment removal in blue, black and red).

[Demagoguery]

Well hold on guys, a lot of people are talking about this as some narrow hate bear with no applications except for targeting niche strategies, and I honestly don't believe that's true for this card.

Narrow, or "lazy" design happens but I don't really think this is the case for this card as it hits such a wide swath of effects in the eternal formats. It doesn't target only one deck, but rather provides soft hate for a multitude of decks, such as Dredge, Oath, Forgemaster, and even singular cards in other decks like Tinker. More so as I've stated before it allows those players to play around it, while also being a surprise counter once triggers hit the stack, but ultimately it doesn't just stop any of those decks from getting answers to it and cleaning it up prior to using their tactic. It also doesn't just stop things in Vintage mind you, because Reanimator and Show and Tell are still decks in Legacy.

As for opening up new design space, well look at it this way, it has cool interactions with things like Flickerwisp and other cards, it does open up some design space for decks, despite being a hate card as a result of this. Sure it's not that much design space as only have four cards with this effect makes it hard to base your deck around it because it's not game winning, but it's something to consider.

As a whole I wouldn't call this lazy or narrow, I'd say it's really well designed. Yes it hates heavily on certain cards, but it does carry over splash hate for other cards unlike various other hate bears of the past, and it also has interactions with other cards that if more effects like this get printed could have better applications as that.

More so, look at the elegance of this design, it hampers but doesn't kill cards aside from Dredge dudes once the trigger is placed on the stack, but it doesn't stop them from doing other things like evoking Chewers to make tokens. Someone casting Tinker can still find a non-creature artifact, and someone using Forgemaster can do the same, the Oath player can opt not to activate it despite putting the trigger up, and the Show and Tell player can always choose to put a different permanent into play losing their Show and Tell but still gaining a little out of it. It's very much a "hamper but don't shut out" type of card, that can potentially have some interactions with other cards you're playing. Can you really say it's bad, narrow, or lazy design? I couldn't, because if it was it would just say "permanent or spell" on it instead of "creature".

[hashswag]

...and the Show and Tell player can always choose to put a different permanent into play losing their Show and Tell but still gaining a little out of it...

Might we even see show and tell decks adapting to drop powerful enchantments instead of creatures postboard against decks with this guy in them? Yawg's Bargain, etc.

[Demagoguery]

...and the Show and Tell player can always choose to put a different permanent into play losing their Show and Tell but still gaining a little out of it...

Might we even see show and tell decks adapting to drop powerful enchantments instead of creatures postboard against decks with this guy in them? Yawg's Bargain, etc.

To be fair most Show and Tell decks in Vintage are running Show and Tell to get around Cage and in case they draw their big guy, so they're actually Oath decks, making it hard for them to do that, but in Legacy it just means Omni-Tell becomes an option if this girl becomes popular enough.

[serracollector]

And as far as legacy is concerned this stop dryad arbor green sun zenith genesis wave and vengenvine.

[Demagoguery]

And as far as legacy is concerned this stop dryad arbor green sun zenith genesis wave and vengenvine.

Oh yea, I forgot about the fact that it kind of hoses Dryad Arbor despite hearing about it today during the draft. It doesn't really stop Vengevine since it's banned in Legacy, but it does stop their version of Tinker being Natural Order, which is nothing to sneeze at. Aether Vial is also stopped by it, which means if they board this in for Death and Taxes they'll probably take out Vials.

It can also be really good against pod for whatever that's worth, since you know that card might do something eventually and kind of has already.

That's the other thing I really like about this card and the design behind it, it's not just the best hate card that you bring in for whatever match up, but rather it's a good hate card that you can weigh the pros and cons of when deciding whether to play it or other hate cards in order to play against the meta.

Oh and Welder isn't as good against it, and he's been seeing more play lately.

Edit: The other cool thing I like about the design, is that it doesn't hurt alternate casting cost, zero cost, and cost reduction creatures since they're still using the stack. In other words, something like the Affinity Bots list Adrian made a little while ago doesn't actually get hosed by this gal which is nice.

However, it's quite the non-bo with something like Restoration Angel.

[ben_berry]

Depends on who's angel. I ran across a UW control in modern using Kiki as their finisher. This would stop it.

[gkraigher]

Has anyone mentioned how this card and flickerwisp remove a creature from the game? 

It does have negative synergy with aether vial in legacy.

[MaximumCDawg]

Yeah, you know, just every dozen posts or so.

under this creature Parallax Wave simply kills 5 creatures

Yeah, I saw someone point out elsewhere that with this card, Flickerwisp becomes Swords on a stick.  Definitely applicable to Legacy DnT (with the exception of this shutting down your own vials, but maybe you board them out for this), not sure if anything similar is good enough for Vintage.  I can't think off the top of my head of any flicker effects that are good enough for this format on their own.

under this creature Parallax Wave simply kills 5 creatures

This also allows you to blink your opponents creatures out of existence via cards like flickerwisp, which could be a surprisingly good strategy.

[xouman]

It's awesome how a 2/2 creature that shouldn't have a big impact in standard has so many posts in a vintage thread!

This card battles unfair decks, agree.
Unfair decks are what make vintage awesome, agree too.
But this card does not eliminate all options from unfair decks at all: you oath, I play priest, you bolt/decay/counter, I cry. Or simply I don't draw this, since white has little access to manipulation. Play tendrils and laugh at this bear. Vault+key. Hardcast maniac. I mean, decks should have more than 1 way to win, or they could lose against 1 single card.

I have played Aether Flash in Vintage: play it if you are afraid of delvers and hatebears and see them losing. Pyroclasm. Bonfire of the damned. Toxic deluge. Don't you want to play these defensive cards? You only want to play nice offensive cards, just mirrors and mirrors of blue combo-control? This card does not make unplayable decks AT ALL, while tinker and oath have done for lots of years.

[serracollector]

Right on xouman.

[MrGlantz]

Maybe "lazy" is too cruel of a word -- I was originally borrowing it from someone else's post -- but I just mean that printing narrow answer cards to solve problems is the easiest design task possible. It's much more difficult to design cards that, rather than directly shut down an existing oppressive strategy by reacting to it, proactively open up new angles of attack for other decks by enabling powerful new interactions that require tradeoffs to incorporate.

Lazy was my word, and I stand by it, for exactly the reason you've cited.

Here's a card I designed in 30 seconds. It would totally shake up Vintage. It would finally stick it to the evil Big Blue decks, and evil Dredge, and evil Shops. It would also increase format diversity: just stick 4 of these and some Moxen into your favorite Standard deck and you have something ready to take down Vintage champs.

Arbiter of Fairness
W 1/1
Uncounterable, hexproof.
Players can't play more than one spell per turn.
Players can't take extra turns.
Nonbasic lands are Plains.
Players can't play cards from graveyards. Creatures can't enter the battlefield from any zone except the stack.

Is the Priest anywhere near this level? No, of course not. But I'm disappointed every time a new set contains a hatebear that is Vintage-playable only because it hoses the mechanics and interactions that make Vintage Vintage, rather than because it opens up novel proactive, powerful interactions on its own.

"Vintage Playable only"

What an interesting concept when the article talking about it's design never once mentions vintage or a vintage strategy. It's interesting how you see it as targetting you or specific things when there isn't really anything to back that up.
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/ld/hate-bears-commander-2014-10-31

Edit: Also if you read that article it points out that the current crew at Wizards LIKES these hatebears so expect more of them in the future!

Your post reeks of complaining and I don't even really understand why.

1) Broken strategies are inherently stronger than hate strategies.
2) There are people who like playing with these types of decks, they should be given a bone once in a while as well.
3) Plenty of interesting board states happen when these hate decks go up against the broken decks. It causes interesting complex interactions and board states that wouldn't exist otherwise. If you disagree with me here, then you probably just haven't played against enough hate decks to encounter those interactions.

Edit: What's REALLY interesting is that when blue "hate pieces" get printed there's no outrage at all. I just looked through the Notion Thief thread and there's no complaining about stupid card design despite it obviously being a hate against broken things card. Interesting to see.

In the end, its probably significantly better in UW control decks over hate decks anyway. It gives them a flash body to beat down with that helps them beat broken strategies. I can see the "Dance Magic Dance" decks wanting this in the SB as well as UW angels / Bomberman. Its more likely to make an impact there than it is in hate decks anyway.