[C14] - Containment Priest

[TheWhiteDragon]

I saw this as WotC saying "we can listen to the whiny babies clamoring to restrict oath and bazaar on TMD, or we can print this and have them shut their craw...yeah, let's make this guy."

[evouga]

Wait we're suppose to whine about Oath and Bazaar? The last memo I got was to whine about Chalice and Treasure Cruise.

[Demagoguery]

I saw this as WotC saying "we can listen to the whiny babies clamoring to restrict oath and bazaar on TMD, or we can print this and have them shut their craw...yeah, let's make this guy."

I honestly don't think this was printed for Vintage as much as it was for Legacy. I'm sure they considered Vintage, but for the most part this does a much better job at hating on Legacy strategies than other hate pieces like Cage. The reason for this is that Legacy cheat spells are all pretty much creature based and require commitment upon going on the stack, so things like Show and Tell, Reanimate, GSZ, and Natural Order are hit significantly harder by this than something like Tinker which can simply tutor up a Time Vault or Oath which can just decline to use the trigger, unlike Order where you've already sacced a creature and lost your spell. Don't forget things like Dryad Arbor and Flickerwisp also see play in Legacy, so really this card was printed for them, not us...

Additionally if this ever becomes legal in Modern, because let's say they gave it some testing time in Legacy and decided it wasn't too oppressive, it would hate on Pod so much more than anything in Vintage, since once again it's a creature based card that makes you sacrifice as part of the cost of activation.

This card honestly does the least amount of work in Vintage compared to the other eternal format and that potato that people sometimes call an eternal format. This isn't Wizard's attempt to make a card for Vintage, it's an attempt to give Legacy another card that happens to be an ok option in Vintage.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Disagree.  Hitting tinkerbot, oath, and dredge as well as show and tell, aether vial, welderbot, dragon etc is all vintage relevant.  It happens to put a huge hit on BOTH formats equally.  The extra things it does/hits in legacy are balanced by the other strategies nerfed in Vintage that are not legal in Legacy.  I think WotC thought of a good way to push creatures up a notch and temper the broken plays in BOTH eternal formats pretty equally.

[brianpk80]

This card honestly does the least amount of work in Vintage compared to the other eternal format and that potato that people sometimes call an eternal format. This isn't Wizard's attempt to make a card for Vintage, it's an attempt to give Legacy another card that happens to be an ok option in Vintage.

Well stated.

I saw this as WotC saying "we can listen to the whiny babies clamoring to restrict oath and bazaar on TMD, or we can print this and have them shut their craw...yeah, let's make this guy."

Whoa.  I'd think "babies" refers to those who lack whatever it takes to even consider articulating a concern.  But today, speaking up is a weakness while meandering on the sidelines taking no stand is a strength.  Right... 

1) Broken strategies are inherently stronger than hate strategies.
2) There are people who like playing with these types of decks, they should be given a bone once in a while as well.
3) Plenty of interesting board states happen when these hate decks go up against the broken decks. It causes interesting complex interactions and board states that wouldn't exist otherwise. If you disagree with me here, then you probably just haven't played against enough hate decks to encounter those interactions.

All true.  This card is interesting because its peculiar design hits tactics that have never adequately been encompassed by one reactive card (for instance Oath of Druids and Show and Tell have always needed completely different lines of defense).  But it's still a hate bear that isn't Thalia.  It's a playable card but not a game-changer. 

[WotC_Ethan]

Not to stifle this interesting discussion about what the motivation was for designing this card, but I can authoritatively say that it was indeed designed with Vintage in mind. White is pretty underrepresented in Vintage. Oath and Tinker put a lot of pressure on aggro-control decks, so I thought that GW Beats and similar decks could use a little help. The fact that the card hoses one of my least-favorite Commander cards, Deadeye Navigator, was icing on the cake!

[enderfall]

*WotC_Ethan drops mic*

[Demagoguery]

Not to stifle this interesting discussion about what the motivation was for designing this card, but I can authoritatively say that it was indeed designed with Vintage in mind. White is pretty underrepresented in Vintage. Oath and Tinker put a lot of pressure on aggro-control decks, so I thought that GW Beats and similar decks could use a little help. The fact that the card hoses one of my least-favorite Commander cards, Deadeye Navigator, was icing on the cake!

Hu, that's pretty cool and goes with something I said earlier about how White is one of the weakest colours currently. Thanks for your input, it's really awesome to hear from the folks working on this stuff themselves.

Though I do want to ask, was Legacy a consideration for this card as it does seem to have a stronger presence there, along with more potential interactions. It also hates on one of the stronger decks, being Elves. Or was this rather designed with predominantly only Vintage in mind and realised to have potential in Legacy?

[WotC_Ethan]

I wasn't thinking too much about Legacy, though shutting down Show and Tell -> Absurd Fatty seemed like a good idea. Show and Tell just gets stronger every year...

[Demagoguery]

I wasn't thinking too much about Legacy, though shutting down Show and Tell -> Absurd Fatty seemed like a good idea. Show and Tell just gets stronger every year...

It also helps with Natural Order and Vial which seems to be as common as Show and Tell.

That's pretty cool though, you guys made a really nice overall card here, so grats on that. I do like that it's actually stronger in the format it wasn't designed for when it comes to hating on certain strategies, but it still does just enough to be playable but not unbeatable in the format it was design for.

Either way, thanks for all the insight, it's always good to hear from the guys who make this game.

Edit: Have you considered ever doing a Q&A thread on here somewhere? I'm sure we all have plenty of questions to ask that you might be able to shed some light on.

[serracollector]

Everyone seems to be forgetting sneak attack. is that not a huge thing in legacy anymore?

[Demagoguery]

Everyone seems to be forgetting sneak attack. is that not a huge thing in legacy anymore?

Show and Tell is usually the same deck as Sneak Attack, so usually mentioning one covers the other. I guess Reanimator sometimes uses Show and Tell too, but that's not their main plan.

[MaximumCDawg]

Not to stifle this interesting discussion about what the motivation was for designing this card, but I can authoritatively say that it was indeed designed with Vintage in mind.

This statement confirms all of my hopes and dreams and underpins why I adore (and purchase) the Commander product.  Target audience, HOOOO!

[Samoht]

Not to stifle this interesting discussion about what the motivation was for designing this card, but I can authoritatively say that it was indeed designed with Vintage in mind. White is pretty underrepresented in Vintage. Oath and Tinker put a lot of pressure on aggro-control decks, so I thought that GW Beats and similar decks could use a little help. The fact that the card hoses one of my least-favorite Commander cards, Deadeye Navigator, was icing on the cake!

That's interesting because I see this card as mostly beating the Sneak and Show deck out of Death and Taxes in Legacy, even Natural Order from Elves is hosed. Sure, it hoses Oath in Vintage but Tinker is alive and well (just need to not get robots, Jar, Time Vault/Voltaic Key, and Helm of Obediance are on the uptick).

[The Atog Lord]

Not to stifle this interesting discussion about what the motivation was for designing this card, but I can authoritatively say that it was indeed designed with Vintage in mind. White is pretty underrepresented in Vintage. Oath and Tinker put a lot of pressure on aggro-control decks, so I thought that GW Beats and similar decks could use a little help. The fact that the card hoses one of my least-favorite Commander cards, Deadeye Navigator, was icing on the cake!

Thank you very much for letting us know this. The fact that Wizards is thinking about Vintage and how to adjust the format through new printings is appreciated!

[healo]

I wish the day I fell in love with Oath of Druids never existed. It's always something. Nature's Claim, Cage, now this thing. I just happen to love the archetype that goes against everyone's will to turn Vintage into Legacy or Modern (tapping 2/2 dude 10x times to get the job done). FML.

[hashswag]

I wish the day I fell in love with Oath of Druids never existed. It's always something. Nature's Claim, Cage, now this thing. I just happen to love the archetype that goes against everyone's will to turn Vintage into Legacy or Modern (tapping 2/2 dude 10x times to get the job done). FML.

Every deck has to fight through something, though. Oath has always had it pretty easy with only Cage to deal with, compared to Dredge (Cage, Leyline, RiP, Jailer, etc), Storm (Flusterstorm, Trap, Cage, Leylines), etc. It's hard to consider Nature's Claim specific Oath hate: it's just an enchantment removal spell. Its existence almost plays into the Oath pilot's hands, since it's a prime Misstep target. That's like saying the existence of Lightning Bolt is ruining creature decks.

Anyway, all you have to do to get rid of this thing is to Jace or Decay it. It literally dies to the same uncounterable removal spell that Cage dies to and Oath already runs.

[healo]

I wish the day I fell in love with Oath of Druids never existed. It's always something. Nature's Claim, Cage, now this thing. I just happen to love the archetype that goes against everyone's will to turn Vintage into Legacy or Modern (tapping 2/2 dude 10x times to get the job done). FML.

Every deck has to fight through something, though. Oath has always had it pretty easy with only Cage to deal with, compared to Dredge (Cage, Leyline, RiP, Jailer, etc), Storm (Flusterstorm, Trap, Cage, Leylines), etc. It's hard to consider Nature's Claim specific Oath hate: it's just an enchantment removal spell. Its existence almost plays into the Oath pilot's hands, since it's a prime Misstep target. That's like saying the existence of Lightning Bolt is ruining creature decks.

Anyway, all you have to do to get rid of this thing is to Jace or Decay it. It literally dies to the same uncounterable removal spell that Cage dies to and Oath already runs.

I'm more concerned about the overall direction they are heading for instead of having issues with single hate cards (I'm very used to fight hate, obviously). And I don't like HOW they seem to do it. I mean, look at this card. You want to Oath? Bam, removed. Show and Tell? Bam. Tinker? Bam. You are done... I think someone else here was mentioning "lazy design"... So what is next? For 1 - "Search your opponents library. If your opponent has creatures with casting cost more then 6, you may exile them."?

Also, I'm not buying that Oath has always had it pretty easy compared to other decks (I don't really count Dredge). I would say you can somewhat compare it to Storm due to Misstep and Flusterstorm/Trap. But there were always very cheap and effective cards to stop Oath should it start winning consistently (Shops are dominating for years now, but it's fine, since it wins by tapping guys sideways right). Given that Oath is an enchantment, it is really easy to hate on it. More then you can hate on other standard archetypes I would say. And Oath almost always gives at least 1 turn to their opponents to dig for their answers.

By the way, isn't saying that Claim plays into the Oath pilot's hand because of Misstep the same as saying that Cage plays into the Oath pilot's hand because of Misstep?

Also, I like how you can kill your opponent with the answers at the same time now. The 2/2 null rod thing, now this 2/2 cage priest, etc.. Or Lodestone Golem to some degree. I understand the argument that white is underrepresented in Vintage. But come on, why would you print something that kills directly so many strategies in such manner. You just play the card and laugh how you shut down your whole opponent's deck that is desperately trying to find ways to fight all the hate there is already (playing Show and Tell, Tinker, because it is so easy to deny Oath). Of course I have answers to this card, but once more, I don't like their approach with this.

Like, they leave Vault/Key in there and print stuff like this, I don't really get it...

edit: Sorry, now that I read my post again I realise it might sound a bit aggresive. I'm a bit frustrated right now. Fact is that something similar could be said about cards like Massacre, just the other way around. But I still don't like it. 

[healo]

double post - removed.

[enderfall]

Nature's Claim is also an Oath players best friend to remove said Cages. Just saying.

[TheWhiteDragon]

This is certainly NOT a lazy design.  It effectively hits a number of broken strategies without being stupidly broken itself.  It's not a 2 mana 5/3 with all its abilities after all.  It effectively nukes one aspect of "cheating" cards into play.  That's completely fine by me.  There are 4 ways to create cards:

1) create a card that is functionally identical to, or just strictly superior to another card. (doom blade > terror) And people tend to whine when a card is simply just reprinted with a new name or completely outclassed for the same costs/type.
2) create something broken to shake up the meta.  See Lodestone Golem, trinisphere.  Nuff said (and if not, scroll back through the threads and see how many people were up in arms about these).
3) create efficient anti-broken.  See above to hear complaining about how favorite broken pet decks are ruined.
4) create something completely new and interesting via a new mechanic or something.  This is a great way to design cards, but not EVERY card can be so new. This also creates the risk of bonkers cards coming out and messing with a format (see storm and tendrils, dredge and golgari, etc).

All of these ways of design have to exist, and if #2 gets too out of hand, then #3 becomes a great option.  Continually doing #2 or #4 to fight the other broken cards turns the game into a bazooka fight...and we know how much whining there is about Vintage being a coin-flip format already.  A card like the priest helps to slow down the game and fight broken in a fundamental way - turning dudes sideways.  That's not a bad thing.  It doesn't make Vintage into Legacy or Modern, but there's only so much broken you can print until Vintage really becomes a field of "belcher" decks just trying to T1 the opponent.

And whining doesn't mean having an opinion - it's when people clamor for restriction needlessly (i.e. my stompy deck is a dog to oath - oath must be restricted!).  Oath and dredge are not dominating forces.  I, also, think it sucks that dredge needs SO many sb slots to fight...but you know what?...This card helps that too.  Good job WotC!

[Saya]

Nature's claim and mental misstep were the oath's friends to get rid of obstructs.None of them can manage Priest - they certainly need 4 of decays.

[healo]

Why would this card need to be stupidly broken itself to be an example of lazy design? From Oath player's point of view, this card actually is stupidly broken, even worse then Cage.

Why on Earth would they not remove Vault/Key prior to anything else if they wanted to slow down the format and fight the broken stuff?

1st turn Land, Mox, Sol Ring, Demonic Tutor. 2nd turn Vault, Key... How fun it is to play against this?

Win the die roll, 1st turn Workshop, Mox, Golem. 2nd turn Sphere... Why is there no initiative to do something about this?

1st turn Mox, Orchard, Oath. Similar thing, however you can at least answer this in other way then having Force + blue card. Yet this is obviously broken and calls for printing more and harder answers.

No, this card is not an attempt of "we want to slow down the game and fight the broken" in my eyes. This card is directly attacking certain deck. Even Ethan himself said they wanted to restrict the pressure Oath/Tinker is able to put on creature based decks.

If they printed something like "If a creature was put onto the battlefield and it's casting cost was not paid, that player loses life equals to the casting cost of that creature", that would have been like 10x times more interesting and therefor not a "lazy design" imo. This way you would have to be thinking about your life total, what creatures you play so how much life you could potentially lose, can you survive his next attack phase or not, is he able to burn me right away, etc..

Maybe it's not the best example, but you get the idea. Instead the other guy just plays this asap and you are like - hmm, ok, I guess I'll just sit here until I find my Abrupt Decay or I'm dead.

Where are cards like "2/2 for 1W, flash - if an opponent would take an extra turn, you take the extra turn instead", or "1/2 for W - as long as an opponent controls 3 or more artifacts, this gets +3/+3 and has lifelink."?

[vaughnbros]

1st turn Land, Mox, Sol Ring, Demonic Tutor. 2nd turn Vault, Key... How fun it is to play against this?

This is stopped by so many things its not even funny.  Mental misstep, mindbreak trap, ancient grudge, abrupt decay, nature's claim, phyrexian revoker...

Win the die roll, 1st turn Workshop, Mox, Golem. 2nd turn Sphere... Why is there no initiative to do something about this?

This isn't even close to the other two examples.  Any moxen, or winning a die roll makes this pretty easy to deal with.

1st turn Mox, Orchard, Oath. Similar thing, however you can at least answer this in other way then having Force + blue card. Yet this is obviously broken and calls for printing more and harder answers.

Except that oath is unrestricted, and against a creature heavy deck you neither need the mox nor the orchard to blow them out.  1G = good game.  Oh you have a grafdigger's?  I'll just pay 2U then for this show and tell.

If they printed something like "If a creature was put onto the battlefield and it's casting cost was not paid, that player loses life equals to the casting cost of that creature", that would have been like 10x times more interesting and therefor not a "lazy design" imo. This way you would have to be thinking about your life total, what creatures you play so how much life you could potentially lose, can you survive his next attack phase or not, is he able to burn me right away, etc..

That would be a Red or Black ability, and is a significantly worse effect.  He also specifically said he wanted a card for GW hatebears. Exiling is a white ability.

Maybe it's not the best example, but you get the idea. Instead the other guy just plays this asap and you are like - hmm, ok, I guess I'll just sit here until I find my Abrupt Decay or I'm dead.

Oh I'm so sorry for you.  You might actually have to interact with your opponent now.

[MrGlantz]

Where are cards like "2/2 for 1W, flash - if an opponent would take an extra turn, you take the extra turn instead", or "1/2 for W - as long as an opponent controls 3 or more artifacts, this gets +3/+3 and has lifelink."?

Hopefully coming soon 

[diopter]

Oath is such a binary tactic - if it activates your opponent is in a serious world of hurt, even if he was ahead - that the foils need to be equally show-stopping.

Same story with Tinker - ridiculously game-changing effect, so the foils are total hammers.

[psyburat]

Not to stifle this interesting discussion about what the motivation was for designing this card, but I can authoritatively say that it was indeed designed with Vintage in mind. White is pretty underrepresented in Vintage. Oath and Tinker put a lot of pressure on aggro-control decks, so I thought that GW Beats and similar decks could use a little help. The fact that the card hoses one of my least-favorite Commander cards, Deadeye Navigator, was icing on the cake!

White underrepresented?  Challenge accepted.

[xouman]

How can oath players can complain about printing one card that hoses the strategy? I mean, you can complain, but having to play reactive cards is much more risky than playing broken cards themselves. Notion thief is great against treasure cruise, but it's this one what changes vintage. Ingot chewer answers lodestone, but you don't want to play it maindeck.

The thing is, if I play 4 priests, there are lots of tier 1 decks that would be happy, like when I played faeries with about 18 counters, winning blue matches but always being a dog to dredge or mud. Yes, this card is nuts against some decks, but it does not win games, so I will be pretty surprised if I this card in half of the Top8's in several months.

[sirgog]

Edit: Have you considered ever doing a Q&A thread on here somewhere? I'm sure we all have plenty of questions to ask that you might be able to shed some light on.

I would eat a kitten on webcam to make that happen.

[WotC_Ethan]

I am doing an AMA on Reddit on Friday Nov 7th. Stop by and ask me anything!