Temporal Trespass

[Saya]

Remind yourself of Savor the Moment which sees no play at all

[Protoaddict]

An extra turn with out an untap phase is basically no extra turn at all. But i could actually imagine that card seeing play in a list that just maxed out on extra turn cards in the future.

Once again, what exactly does oath need treasure cruise for when it has grizzle in play? It basically can't cast either card untill after oath activates anyways.

Also, and I hate saying this because I dont want it to happen, but if cruise and/or dig get restricted the question of running this over cruise becomes a lot less complex.

[enderfall]

Remind yourself of Savor the Moment which sees no play at all

Savor doesn't see play because it completely sucks. The drawback is far worse than "delve 8" plus an additional blue mana.

That said, Trespass is still a situational Time Walk. In some decks it'll be good... In others it'll be terrible. I think this is going to be a little less abusive simply due to the triple blue required to cast it ( as opposed to cruise which requires only a single blue). I doubt it'll be more than a 1-2 of in decks that would want more than 1 Time Walk. Of course anything can be spoiled to break this in the future.

Easily the best Time Walk variant ever printed... It's just overcosted from the KTK delve cards.

[Hrishi]

Do you really think this is the best Time Walk variant we have? I really want to say Temporal Mastery is superior, although I haven't tested this too much..

[zeus-online]

.

[MTGFan]

Seeing as how Ancestral Recall is miles and miles beyond Time Walk in terms of power;

Wow, that's untrue.  Taking extra turns is the most powerful/abusive thing you can do in the game, not card draw.  

We have to separate the combos featuring a Time Walk element from the atomic Time Walk action when discussing this.

I consider Vault/Key combo and other combo Time Walk completely separate from the card Time Walk in their implications on the game. The fact that the Vault/Key combo technically gives extra turns is completely immaterial to an examination of its substance. Vault/Key is no different from any other two-card-combo in that it is simply a combination of two cards that wins the game upon assembly. In this way, Vault/Key is no more relevant in this discussion than Painter/Grindstone is relevant in a discussion concerning the power level of incremental milling cards such as Glimpse the Unthinkable.

So if we elide Vault/Key and any other two-card combos from our comparison of Time walk and Ancestrall Recall, we can consider the action of taking a single extra turn without immediate recursion vs. the action of drawing three cards in a single shot without recursion.

In the abstract, Ancestral Recall immediately gives access to three more options, three more answers, three more threats, three more mana sources, some combinatoin thereof, and the like. In the abstract, Time Walk gives an extra draw phase, an extra combat phase, an extra untap phase, and an extra main phase with which to use planeswalkers and the like. These are the most important elements of the Time Walk turn.

Which is more powerful, more useful, more desired? It depends on the situation.

In a large percentage of situations, the Recall's three cards will have these qualities. In the early game, a three card burst will bury the opponent in card advantage and give access to more combo search, or more control answers, or more aggro threats. In the mid and late game, these extra cards will be no less useful on average due to the mass of individual powerful cards in the format.

In a comparatively smaller precentage of situations, the Time Walk's draw phase, combat phase, and main phase will provide as much or more value as the three extra cards the Recall provides. Why? Because the draw phase gives only one card. If we are comparing the one card draw with three card draw we can see that Recall is clearly superior. The only way this changes is with static effects that increase card draw with every subsequent turn, such as Dark Confidant or Phyrexian Arena. This brings us to the real reason that Recall is generally better than Time Walk.

Time Walk's effectiveness is wholly dependent on the board state of the caster. In the early game with an undeveloped board, Time Walk is essentially a card draw, a land drop, and another chance to play some permanents. In most Vintage games the game doesn't turn on the *ability* to play spells, but the *access* to those spells. Recall grants more access in more situations to more spells than does Time Walk. Time Walk is more of a tempo tool than a card advantage tool, and thus in the aggregate sum of Vintage game states is weaker than Ancestral Recall.

Of course, there are some game states in which you have a board full of Pyromancer tokens and an extra combat phase will simply win the game, but the entirety of those situations is dwarfed by the preponderance of situations in which three cards drawn put the caster ahead of the opponent for the course of the game.

[Protoaddict]

Without getting into a huge card analysis thing between 2 well established pieces of power, I find that both cards are comparable in powerlevel, but very contingent on what your list is trying to do. I have seen decks eschew timewalk before simply because their list did not have enough ways to abuse extra turns (think storm for instance.)

That being said the top end of timewalk is often well more powerful than recall. Recalls power level is actually somewhat flat in that it is just always good, but a well timed time walk often reads "win the game," such as after a resolved oath creature. I would much rather have a timewalk effects that i could cast, regardless of mana cost, after landing a griselbrand. If I have 5 mana at that point I would be willing to cast time warp, though likely I would not include it in my deck to start. An ancestral at that point does not look quite as appealing.

At 3 mana, or 4 mana or even 5 mana, this card still looks perfectly appealing if the effect of it is still in effect win the game, much more so than ancestral would be.

[enderfall]

Do you really think this is the best Time Walk variant we have? I really want to say Temporal Mastery is superior, although I haven't tested this too much..

Between needing to draw the miracle trigger at the exact right time ( which might not be the best time to cast the card, plus have 2 mana at the ready), and it being a completely dead card in your opener or your first card drawn, I'd say that yes, it's far better than temporal mastery. If we had unrestricted brainstorm it might be possible that mastery is better since you can manipulate your hand more reliably, but even then mastery requires so much more set up to work.

[sirgog]

I don't see this being played anywhere. Assume you were considering it in Delver.

Compare the effect to that of Treasure Cruise, and for a second ignore the higher mana cost.

When you are ahead, TT is better than TC, but both are probably enough to seal the game. All TC needs to do is get you some disruption and you'll get your 'extra turn' when it would normally come around.

When you are at parity or behind, drawing three cards is better than taking an extra turn.

So overall - even if they cost about the same to cast, TC is probably stronger. But they don't cost close to the same amount.

[fsecco]

Whydo people tend to think the only place of delve cards is in Delver decks? I mean, you know the deck is not called "delver" because of delve right?

But seriously, just because Cruise found a home there, it doesn't mean, at all, that we should try and shove every blue delve card there. This clearly is unplayable in Delver.

Now, that said I also don't see that much of a room to this card. Oath is a nice place, maybe a walk combo deck? I dunno. But the card is pretty powerful. Time Walk for 3 is always something to look out for.

[enderfall]

This clearly is unplayable in Delver.

Really? Unplayable? Delver can't use a second Time Walk, ever?

The only thing this clearly isn't is an actual Time Walk. Against Delver I mostly fear Time Walk more than I do Recall. Delver is a tempo deck and there is no greater tempo play than taking an extra turn.

Will this see play in Delver? Certainly not as a 4-of, but 1 or 2 can easily find a home in Delver.

[MisterFoote]

Consider a restriction.  Play 1 cruise, 1 dig, 1 trespass, and mystical or merchant scroll and voila! 

Im not sure its better than cruise or dig until that is the situation we face.

[Protoaddict]

I feel like this is better than the first DTT in Delver, should that ever be the scenario. If TC was restricted, I am not confident that delver decks would instantly just jump over to playing as many DTTs as they were allowed to play, so I don't know that its restriction should even factor in.

Between Cantrips, Gush, a singleton TC, and ancestral, Delver likely has enough draw in a restricted meta. What you draw into is the thing that makes the difference, and taking an extra turn is really just the best.

[JarofFortune]

I feel like this is better than the first DTT in Delver, should that ever be the case.

That is a very bold statement to make. When you have the ability to delve enough cards, Dig is always good, wheras trespass requires a board presence to be better than an exorbitantly costed cycler. Now, if time walk were unrestricted delver could change to be able to better abuse it, but this card is not Time Walk. Even cruise is often cast for two mana or more, and the increased cost of this card just exemplifies that effect.

[fsecco]

This clearly is unplayable in Delver.

Really? Unplayable? Delver can't use a second Time Walk, ever?

At least in current builds I think it is. Unplayable may be too much to say, maybe you can shove 1 or even 2 there. "Not good" could be a better word.

Delver struggles a lot with 3 mana slots. Most of the time you won't be able to play and protect this at the same time. Specially if you run Gush without Fastbond. So yeah, I don't think this is a card you would want to play in Delver.

Also, I could see myself cutting Time Walk from current Delver builds. I'd never cut Ancestral though... walk is only really great with Pyromancer online.

[xouman]

Cutting time walk from delver is like cutting orchard from oath. Well, maybe not that much, but it's not only good with pyromancer online. With a lone delver is like a lightning bolt with cantrip. With gush online allows to make another landrop. Once it resolves you can play anything without having to save mana for counters. With dack or preordain, more filtering. I mean... is probably even better than ancestral, giving it often acts as win condition.

[sirgog]

Whydo people tend to think the only place of delve cards is in Delver decks? I mean, you know the deck is not called "delver" because of delve right?

But seriously, just because Cruise found a home there, it doesn't mean, at all, that we should try and shove every blue delve card there. This clearly is unplayable in Delver.

Now, that said I also don't see that much of a room to this card. Oath is a nice place, maybe a walk combo deck? I dunno. But the card is pretty powerful. Time Walk for 3 is always something to look out for.

Delver is the deck that can best convert an extra turn (and a turn at -3 mana to boot) into a win. That's why it's the first place I'd have thought of for this card, even if Cruise Delver hadn't already demonstrated its ability to use Delve cards.

I do agree that the card synergizes with an Oath activation, especially if you also run Recoup. That said, there are simply better ways to win the game after activating Oath, like drawing 14 cards off Griselbrand.

[fsecco]

I do agree that the card synergizes with an Oath activation, especially if you also run Recoup. That said, there are simply better ways to win the game after activating Oath, like drawing 14 cards off Griselbrand.

Recently I've seen decks struggle a little to win even after resolving Grisel. Playing an extra turn after zgrisel hits means you can draw 7 for free, which is very relevant these days where other decks can simply outrace Grisel. I mean, drawing 7 a lot of the time mean that if your opponent can deal with Grisel on their turn, you're dead. Maybe Trespass can help with that.

Abou Delver decks, I'm a bad delver player myself, so maybe I'm not seeing the obvious. But I think I'd rather add Digs 1 to 4 before adding 1 Trespass. Maybe someone will brew a UWr Delver than leans more heavily into Monastery Mentor and Time Walks... That could work hehe

[JarofFortune]

Time walk is definitely the most cuttable card from delver decks, except perhaps for Mystical. It is excellent in games you are likely to win anyways, but when you are at or behind parity with your opponent it is very mediocre. Good arguments can be made to put gitaxian probe or a Dig through time in that slot. It most certainly is not anywhere close to Orchard in Oath. If a delver list with more threats can be viable in this format, though, having multiple three mana time walks might be worth cutting some cruises.

[The Atog Lord]

Time walk is definitely the most cuttable card from delver decks, except perhaps for Mystical. It is excellent in games you are likely to win anyways, but when you are at or behind parity with your opponent it is very mediocre. Good arguments can be made to put gitaxian probe or a Dig through time in that slot.

This is entirely inconsistent with my own experience. Time Walk has been by far the best of the Power cards in Delver, better than Ancestral Recall or Black Lotus.

[Stormanimagus]

Time walk is definitely the most cuttable card from delver decks, except perhaps for Mystical. It is excellent in games you are likely to win anyways, but when you are at or behind parity with your opponent it is very mediocre. Good arguments can be made to put gitaxian probe or a Dig through time in that slot.

This is entirely inconsistent with my own experience. Time Walk has been by far the best of the Power cards in Delver, better than Ancestral Recall or Black Lotus.

qft.

Time Walk is probably the second most powerful card in Vintage next to Black Lotus. Lotus is the ultimate enabler so it gets the nod as number 1, but I think Walk easily gets the edge over Ancestral Recall for the number 2 slot. Time Walk unrestricted is far more scary to me than Recall unrestricted. Anyone who thinks Time Walk should be considered for cutting for a probe or a Dig is very very misinformed about how Vintage works.

-Storm

[JarofFortune]

Time Walk is probably the second most powerful card in Vintage next to Black Lotus. Lotus is the ultimate enabler so it gets the nod as number 1, but I think Walk easily gets the edge over Ancestral Recall for the number 2 slot.

This is very debatable, but it's pointless to argue about which of the power 9 is the most powerful.

Time Walk unrestricted is far more scary to me than Recall unrestricted.

I completely agree. 4 Time Walk would be obscene and much worse than 4 recall. However, you can't chain time walks while it is restricted, barring regrowth gush decks, where walk does not seem cuttable at all. I'm not talking about the power of cards in the abstract sense or in unrestriction scenarios that will never happen, I'm talking about cards that are played in Delver decks in 2015 consistent with the amount allowed by the restricted list.

Anyone who thinks Time Walk should be considered for cutting for a probe or a Dig is very very misinformed about how Vintage works.

 
If you're going to resort to personal attacks, you might want to at least give a better explanation on why you think that statement is true. And no, I don't mean talking about the power level of Time Walk out of context of the actual format.

This is entirely inconsistent with my own experience. Time Walk has been by far the best of the Power cards in Delver, better than Ancestral Recall or Black Lotus.

That's strange. I have no idea why we've experienced this differently, but it does show the value of different experiences.

[vaughnbros]

Time walk is definitely the most cuttable card from delver decks, except perhaps for Mystical. It is excellent in games you are likely to win anyways, but when you are at or behind parity with your opponent it is very mediocre. Good arguments can be made to put gitaxian probe or a Dig through time in that slot. It most certainly is not anywhere close to Orchard in Oath. If a delver list with more threats can be viable in this format, though, having multiple three mana time walks might be worth cutting some cruises.

I feel like for you to honestly believe this is true, you either have to be playing the card or the deck wrong.  How you are currently playing time walk?  Do you play it ASAP?  Or do you wait until a good opportunity for it?  Its a much more difficult card to time and sequence correctly than most of the other power cards.

[Twiedel]

To make my point short:

- Time Walk is very good in Delver, I wouldn't ever cut it
- UUU seems very borderline to pay in this deck, and this even kills your graveyard and shuts off Cruise
- Delver (as I personally understand it) is greatest when it's not the aggro deck

So, jamming more Delvewalks into the deck makes creatures a lot more important for you. Walking without a creature does often nothing at all in the later turns (you have no more lands to play, and UUU would soak up all your mana). That would lead to trying to keep the creatures alive, which is nothing I ever want to do unless I have lethal on the board.

-> This doesn't fit my idea of a Delver deck and not my playstyle at all.

[MisterFoote]

If you even had the thought that time walk is bad for delver you should be ashamed of yourself as a vintage player.  Go home.  You've been very bad.

Also, if this is where this thread is going, I think we are done here.

Timewalk bad for delver...these kind of comments are pushing people away from this forum.  No joke.

[Protoaddict]

I have no idea why we are talking about this in the confines of delver though, considering there are other decks this is good in.

It is good in oath as has been previously mentioned, though not nearly a 4 of. This is probably a 1 or 2 in flexible slots.
It is potentially playable in U/W decks, though we are unsure what they will look like in the future. Could be Salvagers, Stoneforge, Monastery Master, angels. That is still up in the air.
It is also good if treasure cruise and perhaps DDT get restricted, which people seem to think will happen, if only because there are not really other options in those slots.

[enderfall]

Pretty much any discussion for all FRF card changes if there are any changes to the B&R list in a couple weeks. I agree, if Cruise and/or Dig get restricted, Trespass becomes all the more likely to see play simply because it won't have to compete in deck space with the other (cheaper) delve spells. I still believe that most decks aren't going to want to pay 3 blue and delve for up to 8 just to take an extra turn. The reality is tempo decks use extra turns better than any other deck, which is why the discussion is centering around Delver; the best tempo deck in Vintage. Sure, Oath can use it, but really, how many times does Oath lose if Griselbrand hits the battlefield?

[JarofFortune]

If you even had the thought that time walk is bad for delver you should be ashamed of yourself as a vintage player.  Go home.  You've been very bad.

Also, if this is where this thread is going, I think we are done here.

Timewalk bad for delver...these kind of comments are pushing people away from this forum.  No joke.

Maybe you should read the thread. No one said that Time Walk is bad, just that it is potentially cuttable from some delver lists. There's only so much room in a 60 card deck.   

To make my point short:

- Time Walk is very good in Delver, I wouldn't ever cut it
- Delver (as I personally understand it) is greatest when it's not the aggro deck

Do you see the contradiction in these statements? If you aren't the aggro deck, what is walk doing for you in Delver outside of marginal advantages on a cycler? I would never cut walk in something like a Combo Control Deck or a gush storm deck, but those can abuse the effect with Bob, Oath, Jace, Regrowth, etc.

So, jamming more Delvewalks into the deck makes creatures a lot more important for you. Walking without a creature does often nothing at all in the later turns (you have no more lands to play, and UUU would soak up all your mana). That would lead to trying to keep the creatures alive, which is nothing I ever want to do unless I have lethal on the board.

-> This doesn't fit my idea of a Delver deck and not my playstyle at all.

This is exactly what I mean when I say Walk is not a necessity in these lists. So far I haven't heard anything other than that Time Walk is Power so it is never cuttable.

I feel like for you to honestly believe this is true, you either have to be playing the card or the deck wrong.  How you are currently playing time walk?  Do you play it ASAP?  Or do you wait until a good opportunity for it?  Its a much more difficult card to time and sequence correctly than most of the other power cards.

Like most cards, it depends not the situation. If I need the land drop pre or post gush, I'll use it early. If I have a Dack in hand or the potential to get in a racing situation I'll hold it for sure. Over half the time, however, when I have no board or nothing better than a delver and don't need the three damage more than a blue card, I'll pitch it to Force. I'd miss it in the Merfolk Matchup, but it's not as if many people are playing that deck at the moment. It has a few more uses against Oath, especially g1, but it is far from a necessity in my experience, especially in postbord games if you are prepared.

I'm not saying it is absolutely correct to cut it, just that it is not out of the question. I don't think walk is a bad card at all, the bar is simply high.

[The Atog Lord]

I'm not saying it is absolutely correct to cut it, just that it is not out of the question.

I don't think you and I have been having remotely similar experiences with playing Delver decks in Vintage. I'd rather cut Ancestral Recall than Time Walk.

[diopter]

I don't see the contradiction in Twiedel's statement. Delver's preferred role is control but it can exploit any opening in an opponent's defense to quickly kill with Pyromancers. It's kind of purpose-built for that, actually.

Time Walk is the best card to achieve this role switch without compromising your controlling position. If an opponent deals with your token army, you still have Time Walk in your (stocked) graveyard to keep Cruising. And your opponent probably spent mana tutoring for his Pyroclasm or EE while you just keep on cantripping through your deck and buying untap steps and delve mana for paltry costs.

Time Walk does not force you to overcommit - in fact, it can even help you establish a controlling position in the first place by allowing you to Gush and land drop while keeping your grave full.

DelveWalk does none of these things in Delver. It commits you to playing aggro because it saps your resources to the point where you can't play the control role very well post-Trespass. It's actually extremy anti-tempo because it costs UUU and removes delve mana from your graveyard. And it's not that good at getting you into the control role in the first place.

(And in Oath: it could be good, but honestly, Oath deckbuilders still have work to do to improve the period in the game before they get their Yawgmoth's Bargains into play. Post-Grisel shenanigans are a second-order problem.)

If you really want access to Time Walk in Delver why not try Burning Wish? It fits the bill of being flexible enough to help you get into the control role, and then shifting quickly to aggro. Burning Wish needs careful building to fit into a "tempo" deck like Delver, which will separate skilled dekcbuilders from poor ones.