New Gifts, without Brainstorm or Thirst for Knowledge

[The Atog Lord]

...I'm curious to know exactly how "I was a tool..."

No, really, this is not the official TMD "Let's Talk About Steve" thread. Steve, for all that you've accomplished in Magic, you are still not a copy of Gifts Ungiven. And this thread is for discussing Gifts Ungiven.

[Hrishi]

I know this is under Rituals but since we're talking about how to abuse Gifts, I had reasonable success with my attempt. I had read a lot about decks attempting to fuse Grim Long and Gifts into a single deck and I allowed my TPS list to evolve with the addition of Gifts. It might be underwhelming and uninspired, but it seemed to work well both in testing and in practice.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=47134.0

[serracollector]

We also now have four Regrowth and four Snapcasters and Past in Flames which did not exist back when Gifts was last allowed. I mean you could do a Gifts pile of something like Lions Eye Diamond Black Lotus Seething Song and Past in Flames and do some seriously retarded stuff.

[Smmenen]

The first #Giftsweek Gifts article was posted on EC today, by Guillem Ragull.   http://www.eternalcentral.com/giftsweek-gifts-talrand-gush/
FYI

It seems to just use Gifts for value rather than as a combo engine.  I think if I was playing Gifts in a Gush deck, I'd definitely run Regrowths.

[H]

I think the biggest issues facing Gifts power level post-unrestriction is lack of unrestricted Brainstorm and power-level of Workshop decks.  I admit I am curious to see if anyone can solve these issues satisfactorily, but I am deeply skeptical.  I have little doubt that Steve or Shawn, or someone else, can make a Gifts deck that has a positive matchup versus Big Blue, but trying to resolve 4 CMC spells versus Shops is an entirely different ball game.  This says to me that there is going to be a real fine line between too many clunky spells that are borderline unplayable when not resolving Gifts.

[Space_Stormy]

Also Grafdigger's Cage is a damper to keep in mind.

To get the thread back on track,

Most of the lists posted here are just trying to redo the Gifts lists of old into a new shell of Tinker/BSC(DSC) Tendrils or Vault+Key/Tezz.  Reading his post I can see that all my thought processes have been the same way.  So, what have we been doing and how can we change it?

Old gifts:Mana Drain powered Brainstormx4 and Merchant Scrollx4 that gets Ancestral Recall and Gifts Ungiven.  Gifts for Recoup-Time Walk-Tinker-Yawg Will, attack twice with DSC for the win.  Also plays a Tendrils or an Empty the Warrens for storm kills with Gifts for mana sources or big Yagmoth's Will turns.

In 2007 the decks to beat were Flash+Hulk, The onset of Bazaar powered Dredge, Dark Ritual Storm decks, Fish, Bomberman and Workshop decks which were usually prison over aggro and ran Goblin Welder.  Gifts postioned itself to have more threats that the Fish decks could handle, the counterspells to deal with the combo decks, tendrils and Flash and the Hurkyl's Recall and Empty the Warrens to fight the Stax decks.

It was built to have multiple routes to victory with enough consistency to make dead draws minimal.  You could maindeck a Hurkyl's Recall Since you could tutor for it six ways directly, 4x Scroll plus Vamp and DT, or put it into Gifts piles for extra storm.  You could put it back with Brainstorm or pitch it to FOW.

So, basically my point of all this is that we aren't building our Gifts Ungiven decks for today's metagame.  We are just porting in decks of old which were built for different times.  So what is different?

-The Delver Archetype
-Oath of Druids Archetype
-Gristlebrand
-Time Vault Errata back into combo form
-No Flash Combo
-Gush x4 and Burning Wishx4 is Legal
-Workshop decks are about Spheres and beaters.  Not Smokestack and Goblin Welder
-Dredge is a deck we need to devote 6-8 SB slots for
-Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-Blightsteel Colossus making the Tinker path a 1 turn kill

So from here we have a new point of entry to think on.  Or I guess we can wait for Steve and just talk about that.

(Big thanks to Steve's "The 2007 Vintage Year in Review" article for helping me with the 2007 Vintage Metagame!)

Also Grafdigger's Cage is a damper to keep in mind.

[boggyb]

Thanks for the steering wheel, Rich.

fwiw, I felt my deck was a strong metagame choice for the east coast scene I expected. I didn't figure out the Mentor/Delver matchup (didn't have time) but it does very well against everything else, and is particularly good against storm, harder control, and Oath, which I expected a lot of (and found) at the tournament. I tried a more all-out approach but kept losing to Shops; slowing the deck down into a traditional grixis build solved that very well. It's not even a huge dog to Mentor either, as their control game is middling and they don't always have a fast Mentor. Mr. Murray beat me with a turn 1 or 2 Mentor in one game, and then I was either one mana OR one turn away from victory in the next. It's tight and very winnable. (Matt, correct me if those details are wrong.)

And I do consider it a Gifts-centric deck, btw. The useful insight here for people is that Bob and Snap perform double duty as combo enablers and control components in a Drain deck that builds to Gifts.

[brianpk80]

And I do consider it a Gifts-centric deck, btw. The useful insight here for people is that Bob and Snap perform double duty as combo enablers and control components in a Drain deck that builds to Gifts.

Congrats on your finish.  I think your approach was very reasonable, since Grixis Control is better adapted to today's metagame than the cardinal Gifts lists of the last decade. 

[PeAcH]

@Smmenen

It seems to just use Gifts for value rather than as a combo engine.

Well, not quite like that.

For me Gifts is a combo engine indeed, and here these are included in the usual Gush shell (sans Preordain).

You can search for Vamp, Demonic, Mistical and Lotus/Fastbond or any combination of draw and tutors (or snaps) for the kill.

Also, if you have Will in hand or access to it Gifts allows the perfect set up.

Additionally, Gifts allows a shift of gears speeding up the kill out of nowhere.

I think if I was playing Gifts in a Gush deck, I'd definitely run Regrowths.

The list is pretty tight and post tournament I think is that it needs more manipulation to avoid flooding. However, I´m sure regrowth effects can have a space in any Gifts list and also in this one (maybe instead of Snappies?), but that definitelly is a personal choice projected in a list build upon the basis of ones' own style of play.

[desolutionist]

Actually Space_Stormy,

When Flash combo came out, it pretty much edged out Gifts control (Meandeck Gifts/Brassman Gifts).  Going into the last 4x Gifts legal tournament, I played Ritual Gifts (and won) because it had a distinct advantage in the Flash matchup (Duress + quicker kill).  So Flash decks actually had more to do with making Gifts decks unplayable than anything.  I might have been the only one playing Gifts at that tournament.

Off the top of my head, the following cards didn't exist when Gifts was king:

Lodestone Golem
Kuldotha Forgemaster
Thorn of Amethyst
Grafdigger's Cage
Flusterstorm
Spell Pierce
Mental Misstep
Preordain
Ponder
Thoughtseize
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Griselbrand
Snapcaster Mage
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Dack Fayden
Delver of Secrets
Young Pyromancer
etc.

Also new is the unrestriction of:
Fact or Fiction
Frantic Search
Burning Wish
Regrowth
Crop Rotation
Gush
Mox Diamond
Chrome Mox
Entomb?

Honestly, if Dave Feinstein had Delver of Secrets, Snapcaster Mage, Spell Pierce, Thalia, etc.  I don't think Meandeck Gifts would have been very competitive.

[Machinus]

Steve has said that everyone else's lists are bad, and that his list is much better. He has, in fact, claimed that the archetype will be defined by his work. Maybe Steve will redefine Gifts. Maybe Steve will do for gifts this time what Brassman did for it last time. Maybe Steve's Gifts Ungiven decklist will cure Abu Jafar of being a Leper while causing all three factions of the Three Kingdoms to join hands and sing in harmony.

Who knows? Since we can't see his decklist, we can't verify any of that. But what we can see is that this thread is for discussing Gifts Ungiven, not Steve Menendian. Please keep it that way.

Steve can start his own thread for self-promotion and hype over meaningless card choices. This one was doing fine until he crashed it.

[Space_Stormy]

Gush is the biggest thing that stands out to me since the Gifts restriction was at the same time as the Gush unrestriction (the first one at least) is that going for card advantage over combo seems not the best way.  Being able to play Burning Wish is interesting as well.  Putting a wish in a pile with the ability to get Yawgmoth's Will or if you want to Maindeck the will you can cast it for Recoup/Past in Flames.  I guess it begs the question of:

-What do you want to kill with?
-How do you want to get there?

Storm is the easy answer but is there a better way? If you want to storm kill there are better ways.  If you want to piece together Key/Vault you can get there just maxing out on Tezz and not worrying about your graveyard.  The Gifts/Salvagers deck is an awesome idea I saw posted by KanaKaishou but that really isn't a pure Gifts deck.  Tinker->Blightsteel is still relevant I feel but nothing we can easily make our only game plan.

[Machinus]

Hello gentlemen,

I've been testing and brewing more, and I have come up with a new design that I like. Back in the old Gifts days, there were 4 brainstorms and 4 thirst, so Gifts really was just needed to combo off. Since we don't have those kind of draw spells available now, there is a lot more pressure to use Gifts as a draw spell when you aren't sure you have the mana and permission to force through the win.

I don't believe Gush is compatible with the mana-hungry Gifts strategy (at least as a core engine card). However, rather than casting Gifts for value, there is another spell that performs a similar function, but works MUCH better as a card advantage generator, and has huge synergy with Mana Drain and the rest of the tutors in this deck.

Green Gifts 2015:

4 Force of Will         
4 Mana Drain         
3 Mental Misstep     
2 Thoughtseize                     
1 Hurkyl's Recall     
1 Abrupt Decay                     
1 Tinker         
1 Blightsteel Colossus                 
2 Gifts Ungiven         
1 Yawgmoth's Will     
1 Time Vault         
1 Voltaic Key         
1 Regrowth                 
3 Fact or Fiction     
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor   
1 Thirst for Knowledge     
1 Time Walk         
1 Demonic Tutor         
1 Merchant Scroll     
1 Ponder         
1 Vampiric Tutor     
1 Mystical Tutor     
1 Ancestral Recall     
1 Brainstorm                     
1 Black Lotus         
1 Mana Crypt         
1 Sol Ring         
1 Mox Pearl         
1 Mox Sapphire         
1 Mox Jet         
1 Mox Ruby         
1 Mox Emerald                     
1 Tolarian Academy     
3 Underground Sea     
3 Tropical Island     
2 Island         
1 Snow-Covered Island     
2 Polluted Delta     
1 Flooded Strand     
1 Misty Rainforest     
1 Scalding Tarn         
           
SB:           
2 Hurkyl's Recall     
2 Nature's Claim     
1 Trygon Predator     
1 Toxic Deluge         
2 Abrupt Decay         
1 Batterskull
3 Grafdigger's Cage     
1 Flusterstorm
1 Mindbreak Trap     
1 Blue Elemental Blast     


In this version of the deck, the weirdest card you have to play is Regrowth (which is quite good with FoF and Gifts), and when using it to combo off, the opponent will not give you Yawgmoth's will, which means your kill costs 6 mana. The pile is Vault+Key+Will+Regrowth, out of which they will give you Key+Regrowth, meaning your kill costs 1G+2+1+1. Your win condition is Colossus, or Jace activating if they remove colossus.

The biggest loss when playing Green over Red is REB in the sideboard, but between black discard and blue permission there is more than enough disruption. The only functionality which is missing is a cheap way to kill Jace in UBG. However, you gain great tools like Nature's Claim, Abrupt Decay, Trygon Predator, or even Pernicious Deed. I think it's possible to play 4 colors, but in my experience it is best not to push your manabase since you are already heavily depending on UU and this deck is very mana-intensive.

Mana Drain into Fact or Fiction used to be one of the most dominating plays in Vintage. I am not sure if it is still as good in 2015, but it is a plan that goes very well into the Gifts shell and may be the perfect setup card for your Gifts. If you can get just one combo piece in your hand before casting Gifts, your subsequent piles will be much harder for the opponent to split.

[desolutionist]

I like your idea.  You may have something there. 

Just wanted to point out some possible ways to deal with Jace:

Maelstrom Pulse
Hero's Downfall
Pithing Needle
Snapcaster Mage
Rushing River

[Machinus]

I like your idea.  You may have something there. 

Just wanted to point out some possible ways to deal with Jace:

Maelstrom Pulse
Hero's Downfall
Pithing Needle
Snapcaster Mage
Rushing River

Pulse and Downfall cost 3 so they are much worse than REB. Pithing Needle would be great but we also run 2 Jaces   It may just be that Green doesn't have the same efficiency to kill Jace.

[serracollector]

Dont forget beast within.

[desolutionist]

I don't necessarily believe that Jace should be in the deck at all.  Like you said about not having Merchant Scroll, Brainstorm, or Thirst for Knowledge, you need cards to bridge the gap between turn 1 and Gifts Ungiven.

[Machinus]

I don't necessarily believe that Jace should be in the deck at all.  Like you said about not having Merchant Scroll, Brainstorm, or Thirst for Knowledge, you need cards to bridge the gap between turn 1 and Gifts Ungiven.

Jace is a strong way to generate card advantage over multiple turns. I would rather have Thirst back, but we have to play with the cards in the pool. The brainstorm effect is also really strong in this deck since you can fetch and tutor to get rid of the cards you don't want. Even the turn you play it, you can bounce a threat or stock up on free counters.

It's also your secondary win condition after Colossus, which is actually quite important since Tendrils is much worse in a MUD-heavy metagame.

[diopter]

I would be very inclined to test desolutionists suggestion of Night's Whisper, it may have been in the other thread. My experience with this flavour of big blue deck in recent times has been less than stellar without that kind of low-commitment value getter.

[The Atog Lord]

Night's Whisper sounds like a great suggestion. It's not as good as Merchant Scroll or Brainstorm. It is, however, almost certainly the best option we have for card draw that costs less than three mana.

[desolutionist]

Also Mystic Remora has proven to be really good in big mana blue decks.

[diopter]

I would also test 4 Preordain. It won't nearly be as good as in Delver because you don't have as much role flexibility (though that's a worthy goal, to keep kill packages to a bare minimum so that most draws are live) but the issue of infi awkward hands and oblivion mulligans needs to be solved.

Actually, I'm now quite excited about the prospect of a 4 Preordain+4 NW test build. I'm going to add it to next to my 4 Dack + Gifts test build.

[ApolloGod]

...
Green Gifts 2015:

4 Force of Will         
4 Mana Drain         
3 Mental Misstep      
2 Thoughtseize                     
1 Hurkyl's Recall      
1 Abrupt Decay                     
1 Tinker         
1 Blightsteel Colossus                  
2 Gifts Ungiven         
1 Yawgmoth's Will      
1 Time Vault         
1 Voltaic Key         
1 Regrowth                  
3 Fact or Fiction      
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor   
1 Thirst for Knowledge      
1 Time Walk         
1 Demonic Tutor         
1 Merchant Scroll      
1 Ponder         
1 Vampiric Tutor      
1 Mystical Tutor      
1 Ancestral Recall      
1 Brainstorm                     
1 Black Lotus         
1 Mana Crypt         
1 Sol Ring         
1 Mox Pearl         
1 Mox Sapphire         
1 Mox Jet         
1 Mox Ruby         
1 Mox Emerald                     
1 Tolarian Academy      
3 Underground Sea      
3 Tropical Island      
2 Island         
1 Snow-Covered Island      
2 Polluted Delta      
1 Flooded Strand      
1 Misty Rainforest      
1 Scalding Tarn         
            
SB:            
2 Hurkyl's Recall      
2 Nature's Claim      
1 Trygon Predator      
1 Toxic Deluge         
2 Abrupt Decay         
1 Batterskull
3 Grafdigger's Cage      
1 Flusterstorm
1 Mindbreak Trap      
1 Blue Elemental Blast      
...

I've been testing a similar shell. However, I modified it by I adding in the Gush-Bond engine. I did this by making the following changes:

-2 Thoughseize
-1 Abrupt Decay
-3 Fact or Fiction
-2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-1 Mana Drain

+1 Mental Misstep
+4 Gush
+1 Fastbond
+1 Gifts Ungiven
+1 Preordain
+1 Regrowth

I've always loved Fastbond. I use it whenever I can. It feels natural in this list, because a.) It helps to hasten the resolution of Gifts Ungiven, and b.) Gush-bond is a nice engine and alternate path to victory.

I've also been testing a Gush-Bond storm version of the deck. It has two divergent victory conditions (Tendrils, or vault-key.) That list uses x3 Dark Ritual. I can't recall off-hand the entire list. I'll post it later if I remember.

[zeus-online]

.

[tito del monte]

I think going green makes a lot of sense.

I've only been goldfishing today, too and I'm all for green. I know he's old-hat, but I like how Lotus Cobra could let you cut back on a couple of mana sources, making Gush better and help power out Gifts. You can play Preordain then maybe and ditch the awkward Nights Whispers.

Won't get to try anything properly for 10 days, but that's just my idea for now....

[brianpk80]

2x Deathrite Shaman or Noble Hierarch (more reliable mana generation) can go a long way in both accelerating into Gifts/Fact or Fiction and helping the difficult Shop match. 

[desolutionist]

mana dorks could end up unplayable if there is a Gifts takeover. Have you seen Jaco's ShownTell Gifts list? Not even Deathrite Shaman is a good turn one play against that

ive been playing a singleton of the exact opposite: gorilla shaman

Not only is he good at generating card advantage by eating moxes, he can easily remove Grafdigger's Cage

[Machinus]

2x Deathrite Shaman or Noble Hierarch (more reliable mana generation) can go a long way in both accelerating into Gifts/Fact or Fiction and helping the difficult Shop match. 

The problem with this is that it triggers oath and is not a good card in the late game. On turn 1 it's a good way to establish mana, but the other abilities are not worth the mana and time to use them in this deck.

[Smmenen]

@Machinus, your list has seven 4cc blue spells (3 fact, 2 gifts, and 2 jace).  That mana curve seems suspect to me.  In an era where 4cc spells are more difficult to cast than ever, that seems excessive, especially with your lack of mana acceleration beyond Mana Drain.  Your list doesn't even have Mana Vault. 

[Machinus]

@Machinus, your list has seven 4cc blue spells (3 fact, 2 gifts, and 2 jace).  That mana curve seems suspect to me.  In an era where 4cc spells are more difficult to cast than ever, that seems excessive, especially with your lack of mana acceleration beyond Mana Drain.  Your list doesn't even have Mana Vault. 

There are not many more accelerators that are good enough to maindeck. Mana Vault is an ineffective source of mana. Using it to cast Gifts or Fact or Fiction means you cannot use it to cast the spells you draw. It's more effective when you have ways to get rid of it when you don't need it, and without Thirst or Brainstorm it's not as good as other cards. Mana Vault won't solve that problem.

It may be the case that there are too many expensive spells. This style of deck wants to hold open UU to delay the opponent and ideally generate drain mana to start going off. Sorcery speed draw spells make this strategy harder to execute, and the best instants are restricted. So you have to play with the cards in the pool.