New Gifts, without Brainstorm or Thirst for Knowledge

[Smmenen]

@Machinus, your list has seven 4cc blue spells (3 fact, 2 gifts, and 2 jace).  That mana curve seems suspect to me.  In an era where 4cc spells are more difficult to cast than ever, that seems excessive, especially with your lack of mana acceleration beyond Mana Drain.  Your list doesn't even have Mana Vault.  

There are not many more accelerators that are good enough to maindeck. Mana Vault is an ineffective source of mana.

Couldn't disagree more.  Casting Gifts with Mana Vault is more than worthwhile both back in the day and present.  In fact, even moreso now that Voltaic Key is often maindeck.  Key will sometimes be put into Gifts piles even.
 
Mana Vault is simply too good to omit.  It is a 1cc artifact so it evades Chalice @ 0, and gives you another sacrifice to Tinker, makes Academy bigger, can be untapped with Key or 'reset' with Hurkyl's or Tezzeret, and is just darn good.  

[Machinus]

@Machinus, your list has seven 4cc blue spells (3 fact, 2 gifts, and 2 jace).  That mana curve seems suspect to me.  In an era where 4cc spells are more difficult to cast than ever, that seems excessive, especially with your lack of mana acceleration beyond Mana Drain.  Your list doesn't even have Mana Vault.  

There are not many more accelerators that are good enough to maindeck. Mana Vault is an ineffective source of mana.

Couldn't disagree more.  Casting Gifts with Mana Vault is more than worthwhile both back in the day and present.
 
Mana Vault is simply too good to omit.

Couldn't disagree more. Mana Vault can be omitted just fine. Maybe your upcoming breakthrough article will enlighten us with reasoning.

It is a 1cc artifact so it evades Chalice @ 1

Most of the time 1cc artifacts do not evade Chalice at 1.

[Smmenen]

@Machinus, your list has seven 4cc blue spells (3 fact, 2 gifts, and 2 jace).  That mana curve seems suspect to me.  In an era where 4cc spells are more difficult to cast than ever, that seems excessive, especially with your lack of mana acceleration beyond Mana Drain.  Your list doesn't even have Mana Vault.  

There are not many more accelerators that are good enough to maindeck. Mana Vault is an ineffective source of mana.

Couldn't disagree more.  Casting Gifts with Mana Vault is more than worthwhile both back in the day and present.  I
 
Mana Vault is simply too good to omit.

Couldn't disagree more. Mana Vault can be omitted just fine. Maybe your upcoming breakthrough article will enlighten us with reasoning.

I don't need to write an article to explain why Mana Vault is probably mandatory in a Gifts list with 7 4cc blue spells.  It's pretty obvious to most.

I just gave you reasons, but I will add to them:

1) Mana Vault accelerates out Gifts, Tinker, and Yawg Will

2) It's fantastic against Workshops

3) It can be untapped by Key, so it's never dead even when tapped

4) It boosts Academy, even when tapped.

5) It can be untapped with Hurkyl's, and even generate mana that way.

6) Not to mention, Mana Vault is important for the "mana" Gifts package.  If you get Lotus, Mana Vault, Crypt, and Academy, you can basically make Gifts mana neutral to set up a huge play.  

7) Mana Vault was also a key staple in Gifts lists of the past: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/11209_Gifts-Dissected--Part-II.html

Mana Vault appeared in roughly 88% of the Gifts lists that top 8ed Vintage tournaments at the time of that writing (41/47 decks).

Conclusion:

The burden of proof is on the player arguing why Mana Vault shouldn't be included, not on why it should be.  

[Machinus]

@Machinus, your list has seven 4cc blue spells (3 fact, 2 gifts, and 2 jace).  That mana curve seems suspect to me.  In an era where 4cc spells are more difficult to cast than ever, that seems excessive, especially with your lack of mana acceleration beyond Mana Drain.  Your list doesn't even have Mana Vault.  

There are not many more accelerators that are good enough to maindeck. Mana Vault is an ineffective source of mana.

Couldn't disagree more.  Casting Gifts with Mana Vault is more than worthwhile both back in the day and present.  I
 
Mana Vault is simply too good to omit.

Couldn't disagree more. Mana Vault can be omitted just fine. Maybe your upcoming breakthrough article will enlighten us with reasoning.

I don't need to write an article to explain why Mana Vault is probably mandatory in a Gifts list with 7 4cc blue spells.  It's pretty obvious to most.

I just gave you reasons, but I will add to them:

1) Mana Vault accelerates out Gifts, Tinker, and Yawg Will

2) It's fantastic against Workshops

3) It can be untapped by Key, so it's never dead even when tapped

4) It boosts Academy, even when tapped.

5) It can be untapped with Hurkyl's, and even generate mana that way.

6) Not to mention, Mana Vault is important for the "mana" Gifts package.  If you get Lotus, Mana Vault, Crypt, and Academy, you can basically make Gifts mana neutral to set up a huge play.  

7) Mana Vault was also a key staple in Gifts lists of the past: http://www.starcitygames.com/article/11209_Gifts-Dissected--Part-II.html

Mana Vault appeared in roughly 88% of the Gifts lists that top 8ed Vintage tournaments at the time of that writing (41/47 decks).

Conclusion:

The burden of proof is on the player arguing why Mana Vault shouldn't be included, not on why it should be.  

There is no burden of proof. I've played Gifts for a long time and I don't have to play Mana Vault. It has pros and cons, and without Thirst and Brainstorm it might not be good enough to play. So far I haven't seen you winning any big tournaments on the basis of including Mana Vault in your Gifts deck so let's not get ahead of ourselves.

[Smmenen]

You asked for reasons, I supplied a half dozen.

For Gifts decks that don't run Tinker, I suppose it would be more arguable.  But yours not only runs Tinker, but has a ridiculously expensive mana curve.  I don't think your deck, as presented, is viable.  You have 3 Facts, and 2 gifts, and 2 Jace.  That doesn't even make sense on the face of it.

EDIT: It's true I haven't won any tournaments with Gifts recently, but I have won many tournaments with Gifts, and there are more compelling reasons to run Mana Vault than ever: namely, Lodestone Golem.    

[Machinus]

You asked for reasons, I supplied a half dozen.

For Gifts decks that don't run Tinker, I suppose it would be more arguable.  But yours not only runs Tinker, but has a ridiculously expensive mana curve.  I don't think your deck, as presented, is viable.  You have 3 Facts, and 2 gifts, and 2 Jace.  That doesn't even make sense on the face of it.

EDIT: It's true I haven't won any tournaments with Gifts recently, but I have won many tournaments with Gifts, and there are more compelling reasons to run Mana Vault than ever: namely, Lodestone Golem.    

Actually, what you did was list some very obvious other cards that interact with artifacts. Anyone that has played Vintage for a week could figure them out. You haven't contributed anything.

[Smmenen]

You asked for reasons, I supplied a half dozen.

For Gifts decks that don't run Tinker, I suppose it would be more arguable.  But yours not only runs Tinker, but has a ridiculously expensive mana curve.  I don't think your deck, as presented, is viable.  You have 3 Facts, and 2 gifts, and 2 Jace.  That doesn't even make sense on the face of it.

EDIT: It's true I haven't won any tournaments with Gifts recently, but I have won many tournaments with Gifts, and there are more compelling reasons to run Mana Vault than ever: namely, Lodestone Golem.    

Actually, what you did was list some very obvious other cards that interact with artifacts. Anyone that has played Vintage for a week could figure them out. You haven't contributed anything.

Well, I actually pointed out a few things that weren't quite simple math, like important Gifts packages that require Mana Vault.  But if that isn't compelling enough to you, I'll simply add that I've done alot of testing recently, and Mana Vault has been a top performer across the board, but it's especially important against Workshops in the current metagame.  Mana Vault has won me multiple games that no other card in that slot likely would have. 

Moreover, just because the reasons are "obvious" or easy to figure out, doesn't mean they don't apply.  Reasons are reasons whether they are obvious or not. 

[Machinus]

You asked for reasons, I supplied a half dozen.

For Gifts decks that don't run Tinker, I suppose it would be more arguable.  But yours not only runs Tinker, but has a ridiculously expensive mana curve.  I don't think your deck, as presented, is viable.  You have 3 Facts, and 2 gifts, and 2 Jace.  That doesn't even make sense on the face of it.

EDIT: It's true I haven't won any tournaments with Gifts recently, but I have won many tournaments with Gifts, and there are more compelling reasons to run Mana Vault than ever: namely, Lodestone Golem.    

Actually, what you did was list some very obvious other cards that interact with artifacts. Anyone that has played Vintage for a week could figure them out. You haven't contributed anything.

Well, I actually pointed out a few things that weren't quite simple math, like important Gifts packages that require Mana Vault.  But if that isn't compelling enough to you, I'll simply add that I've done alot of testing recently, and Mana Vault has been a top performer across the board, but it's especially important against Workshops in the current metagame.  Mana Vault has won me multiple games that no other card in that slot likely would have. 

Moreover, just because the reasons are "obvious" or easy to figure out, doesn't mean they don't apply.  Reasons are reasons whether they are obvious or not. 

Well depite your boorish posting, your opinion has been noted. I am sure you will dazzle everyone with your upcoming masterpiece about Mana Vault. My opinion is that +2 colorless mana may not be worth a card in this new version of the deck, and I have cut it.

[diopter]

Machinus: I think you must mulligan a lot with the FoF build - it seems mathematically impossible not to.

I think this problem needs a solution and neither FoF nor sitting on Drain does it. I have come to realize that Mana Drain is really not great in combo control builds these days - if your deck is somewhat dependent on the mana then you will wait forever while the early Young Peezies or Lodestones eat you alive. Drains are much better in the hard Ux control builds that don't need the mana in the developing turns and can stretch the game to turn 4+ with value SDTs, early Standstills and infi Swords/Explosives.

I guess Steve's suggestion is a good approach - certainly becoming the huge mana deck gives you an angle to just go over the top of other strategies - but I also like the theorycraft behind a low-key approach centered on e.g. Dack Fayden feeding you Moxen or 1-for-1's until you get an opening to combo off.

[desolutionist]

Beside it being a staple artifact accelerant, Mana Vault is one of the best turn 1 plays for a Gifts deck.  I think the only other card that casts a Gifts with just one land is Black Lotus

Mox Opal is a mana card that most likely belongs as well. It might be strictly better than Lotus Petal, a mana card that could possibly be omitted.

diopter,

Mana Drain could become a better counterspell moving forward if the metagame becomes more combo based

[Machinus]

Well I mentioned on the last page that 7 may be too many for the 4cc spot. I have considered cutting a Jace for a land.

I have played a lot with Mana Vault. It is a borderline card because you need the mana AFTER the gifts, not just to cast it. One vault doesn't solve the mana problem.

[zeus-online]

.

[Smmenen]

I have played a lot with Mana Vault. It is a borderline card because you need the mana AFTER the gifts, not just to cast it. One vault doesn't solve the mana problem.

That i can sort of agree with. But my first thought regarding your list was that it looked really clunky with so many 4-mana spells and a lack of mana acceleration to cast them. I am strongly considering cutting down on jaces and snapcasters in my list for the reason that they require too much mana in an already clunky deck.

Mana Vault can be untapped with Key or 'reset' with Hurkyl's or Tezzeret.

Are you suggesting that tezzeret belongs in the gifts deck? Seems like the last thing you need in a 4 gifts control deck is another expensive card.

No, but it is an option.  Time Vaulting is one of the best things you can do with Gifts.  Meandeck Gifts played 4 Gifts and 1 Fact, and I think that's probably the max number of 4cc blue spells you can run.

Beside it being a staple artifact accelerant, Mana Vault is one of the best turn 1 plays for a Gifts deck.  I think the only other card that casts a Gifts with just one land is Black Lotus

Amen.  Both are sick plays with a good Gifts list.  T2 play Gifts off a Mana Vault and a land, leaving one land up is one of my favorite plays with modern Gifts.  You can do it EOT and protect it with Fluster/Pyro/Reb, and then untap and Snapcaster.  It's just insane.

[Machinus]

I have played a lot with Mana Vault. It is a borderline card because you need the mana AFTER the gifts, not just to cast it. One vault doesn't solve the mana problem.

That i can sort of agree with. But my first thought regarding your list was that it looked really clunky with so many 4-mana spells and a lack of mana acceleration to cast them. I am strongly considering cutting down on jaces and snapcasters in my list for the reason that they require too much mana in an already clunky deck.

I think 6 4cc spells could be fine. 3 fact, 2 gifts, 1 jace could work with 16 land. I have been trying that. I haven't seen any good "fast" versions of this deck. I think getting up to turn 3 or 4 may be the best way to play this deck now that we have less consistent blue decks.

[JACO]

Mana Vault has been in most of my Gifts decks in testing thus far, except the Rector Omniscience one. As Steve stated, it is fantastic against Workshops and/or with Voltaic Key in play, but it is also very good at helping you race against things like Dredge (or control-combo decks), which is very relevant when most of us are trimming Dredge hate from the sideboard because we're pretending these are very fast combo decks (they're not). I think if you're playing Key/Vault there's zero reason not to play Vault, other than being obstinate. The only reason I don't play it in Rector Omniscience is because after a lot of testing I cut it for Ancient Tombs (I wanted repeatable mana acceleration to cast multiple expensive threats early, and Tomb does that better, albeit at a cost of 2 life). Depending on your configuration Ancient Tomb might be worth a look main deck as well, but not if you're running stuff like Drain where you want to have lots of blue mana at all times.

EDIT, just saw this:

I like your idea.  You may have something there.  

Just wanted to point out some possible ways to deal with Jace:

Maelstrom Pulse
Hero's Downfall
Pithing Needle
Snapcaster Mage
Rushing River

The best ways in a BUG shell to deal with Jace would probably be Vendilion Clique and/or Notion Thief. Both are very good against Jace decks.

[DuKeLiO]

When I have played my Burning Wish list, I have some feeling of the deck is too heavy, and my deck have only five 4cc spells and 25 mana sources. When I saw your list at the first time, @Machinus, it looked like you will be mana screwed too often playing only 23 mana sources. Also, may be Mana Vault is not needed in a non-storm deck, but I think it will be good in a deck with 5 3U spells and wants to play a lot of spells in one turn.

[Machinus]

Mana Vault has been in most of my Gifts decks in testing thus far, except the Rector Omniscience one. As Steve stated, it is fantastic against Workshops and/or with Voltaic Key in play, but it is also very good at helping you race against things like Dredge (or control-combo decks), which is very relevant when most of us are trimming Dredge hate from the sideboard because we're pretending these are very fast combo decks (they're not). I think if you're playing Key/Vault there's zero reason not to play Vault, other than being obstinate. The only reason I don't play it in Rector Omniscience is because after a lot of testing I cut it for Ancient Tombs (I wanted repeatable mana acceleration to cast multiple expensive threats early, and Tomb does that better, albeit at a cost of 2 life). Depending on your configuration Ancient Tomb might be worth a look main deck as well, but not if you're running stuff like Drain where you want to have lots of blue mana at all times.

EDIT, just saw this:

I like your idea.  You may have something there.  

Just wanted to point out some possible ways to deal with Jace:

Maelstrom Pulse
Hero's Downfall
Pithing Needle
Snapcaster Mage
Rushing River

The best ways in a BUG shell to deal with Jace would probably be Vendilion Clique and/or Notion Thief. Both are very good against Jace decks.

I considered Tomb but yes it does interfere with leaving UU up often.

Regarding Mana Vault, the argument from Ichorid is a very good one. Similar to MUD, though, it depends on what kind of decks you expect to see your metagame. I am not sure if there is a "normal" metagame, but in my area there are few of either, which might be one reason I am testing without it.

[Aaron Patten]

Bomberman Gifts has always been very strong in my experience.  Since Bomberman is present in today's meta it's likely a good fit with the new gifts. 

[Machinus]

In the old days when Stax was tier 1 in Vintage, it was normal to play 16 lands in fast Drain decks, and even 18 lands in Oath. It was essential vs. spheres and also very good against Wasteland and soft counters from Fish decks. This type of deck depends on having access to UU as often as possible. I am trying 16 lands.

13 Control
4 Force of Will         
4 Mana Drain         
3 Mental Misstep     
2 Thoughtseize                     

2 Answers
1 Hurkyl's Recall     
1 Abrupt Decay                     

2 Tinker
1 Tinker         
1 Blightsteel Colossus                 

6 Gifts
2 Gifts Ungiven         
1 Yawgmoth's Will     
1 Time Vault         
1 Voltaic Key         
1 Regrowth                 

13 Draw
3 Fact or Fiction     
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor   
1 Thirst for Knowledge     
1 Time Walk         
1 Demonic Tutor         
1 Merchant Scroll     
1 Ponder         
1 Vampiric Tutor     
1 Mystical Tutor     
1 Ancestral Recall     
1 Brainstorm                     

8 Artifact Mana
1 Black Lotus         
1 Mana Crypt         
1 Sol Ring         
1 Mox Pearl         
1 Mox Sapphire         
1 Mox Jet         
1 Mox Ruby         
1 Mox Emerald                     

16 Lands
1 Tolarian Academy     
3 Underground Sea     
3 Tropical Island     
2 Island         
1 Snow-Covered Island     
2 Polluted Delta     
2 Flooded Strand     
1 Misty Rainforest     
1 Scalding Tarn   

[desolutionist]

I've had some positive experiences with Ancestral Vision in competitive Vintage on Magic Online.  It was also a real player while Mental Misstep dominated Legacy and the fact that it's banned in modern for being OP is evidence of how good it is.

I wonder if Gifts can be slowed (by playing a lot more control) to utilize the Ancestral Vision draw engine.

[Machinus]

It was also a real player while Mental Misstep dominated Legacy and the fact that it's banned in modern for being OP is evidence of how good it is.

The Modern banned list is not a reliable source of data for what cards are "OP." They ban cards for different reasons, or sometimes no reason.

I think AV is probably too slow for Vintage unless you can put it on the stack with a different effect like cascade.

[Space_Stormy]

It was also a real player while Mental Misstep dominated Legacy and the fact that it's banned in modern for being OP is evidence of how good it is.

The Modern banned list is not a reliable source of data for what cards are "OP." They ban cards for different reasons, or sometimes no reason.

I think AV is probably too slow for Vintage unless you can put it on the stack with a different effect like cascade.

I could see sideboarding it for slower matchups like Delver v Delver but really no combo deck can take advantage of it (which is a good thing honestly)

[desolutionist]

Yes it's quite good at what it does, when you're trading counters back and forth; often is a more successful turn one play than Ancestal Recall.

[DuKeLiO]

I update my list to win my local league tournament. I used this list:

3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Drain
3 Mental Misstep
2 Flusterstorm
2 Repeal
1 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Gifts Ungiven
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time Walk
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Burning Wish
1 Noxious Revival
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn

Sb:
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Tinker
1 Thougthseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Mountain
4 Pulverize
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Surgical Extraction

I came back with Mental Misstep disruption beacuse of Pyroblast and having to fight for Noxious Revival. I add 3 instead of 2 MisD and the 3rd Repeal.
I drop DTT because of his poor perfomance in this deck.
Also dropped Fire/Ice because the metagame shift on Young Pyromancer to Monastery Mentor on my metagame.
I added Noxious Revival and a 3rd Snapcaster.
In spite of being 21 players we always play at least 6 rounds with cut to top8:

2-1 UW Remora Mentor
2-0 Oath
0-2 Landstill (3+3 Pyroblast )
2-0 UW Mentor
0-2 MUD (I heavily missplayed g1 and g2 he nuts-draw me completely)
2-1 UWR Mentor
QF
2-1 Esper Tasigur Bomberman
2-1 UR Delver
2-1 UW Mentor

[Chaam]

So has everyone given up on making Gifts work? I have been playing the following list and it has been performing well in testing. The majority of the testing has been vs. Delver and it seems quite favorable. I have also tested vs. storm and that is a good matchup. I have done limited testing vs. dredge but on paper doesn't seem that bad but I have yet to test vs. Shops and that matchup seems horrible.

Sorcery (7)
1x Ponder
1x Time Walk
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Merchant Scroll
1x Tinker
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Treasure Cruise

Instant (23)
1x Ancestrall Recall
1x Brainstorm
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
2x Flusterstorm
4x Mental Misstep
3x Mana Drain
1x Thirst for Knowledge
3x Gifts Ungiven
4x Force of Will
1x Misdirection
1x Dig Through Time

Planeswalker (2)
1x Dack Fayden
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Creature (2)
1x Snapcaster Mage
1x Blightsteel Colossus

Artifact (11)
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mana Crypt
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sol Ring
1x Voltaic Key
1x Time Vault

Land (15)
1x Island
1x Library of Alexandria
3x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Tolarian Academy
3x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island

Sideboard (15)
4x Ingot Chewer
1x Mountain
2x Viashino Heretic
4x Ravenous Trap
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Pyroblast
1x Pyroclasm

[KanaKaishou]

So has everyone given up on making Gifts work? I have been playing the following list and it has been performing well in testing. The majority of the testing has been vs. Delver and it seems quite favorable. I have also tested vs. storm and that is a good matchup. I have done limited testing vs. dredge but on paper doesn't seem that bad but I have yet to test vs. Shops and that matchup seems horrible.

I say this in all honesty: Gifts wasn't enough to make this style of deck good. It helped (don't get me wrong), but Tinker/Vault/Jace the deck is just not where I want to be right now.

As far as your results...I can't believe you're having high success against Delver. Your deck has (1) the same amount of countermagic, (2) worse card draw, and (3) more expensive, only arguably better threats. Its the same problem that the grixis deck has always had with delver. Storm is just an awkward deck, and yes, your deck seems to have lots of high cc awkward against shops cards, though I'd imagine it's not unwinnably bad.

I think the more effective Gifts decks have been ones where the desired Gifts pile is essentially "known" before hand, unlike your deck, where your pile is always up for debate (Do I want to tinker? or vault/key? how do I do that?). For example, Hrishi's Gifts Storm list has Gifts...but 7-8/10, you get Recoup/Will/LED/Lotus, subbing different cards in for pieces you already have. Or my Gifts Bomberman, where 7-8/10, you get Rites/Salvagers/Tasigur/Lotus, subbing in different cards for what you already have.

Gifts has a lot of power by being a flexible card, but it sure seems to me that the right way is to let the card be drawn up as a linear kill condition (I'm *always* getting this pile of 4, given the choice) rather than a "I don't know, let's find out, I have all these tools" card (which is how I view your deck full of tutors). If you need to be creative you can do that in game--no need to go deep on having multiple slightly different effects of differing names.

[boggyb]

Agree with Vasu, I like the deck but just don't see the Delver matchup working out. Try 1-2 maindeck Bolts and try out Bob -- he's a surprisingly effective counterplay against Delver, especially on the play and/or if backed up by protection. Your main gameplan besides your ~15% chance of smashing them with a good draw is to race them by squeaking out a win on turn 4-5. You usually will win with zero mana in your pool and/or only 0-1 cards left in your hand and most of your yard exiled. Bob is great at building a critical mass/distracting their removal/slowing their attack during those early turns. Check the list I posted earlier in the thread for what I mean.

I wouldn't play that list now, since it's mediocre against Delver and bad against Mentor and I think those decks will be popular for the next few months at least. But if I had to I'd DEFINITELY add a Hurkyl's or two (huge oversight on my part -- should prob have one in the main in place of a Jace), and test the heck out of the Mentor matchup, tweaking the sideboard to accommodate it. Test against B. Kelly's list from the other day or the simpler lists from the VSL and you'll see it's an uphill battle.

[DuKeLiO]

The problem with the vastly majority of list I see online :
- You can't play less than 24 mana sources in a deck with so many slow cards like Gifts, Jace, Will and delve cards. On my experience Delve cards have not good sinergy with the deck itself and SDT is too ana intensive for a deck that are trying to play 4cc spells.
- Your Gifts piles are very weak without playing a good quantity of graveyard recursion. Having Snapcaster Mage in hand BEFORE you resolve gifts ungiven is gg too often to not maximize the chance of doing it.
- Recoup is weak. You can Compare any yawgmoth's will+recoup pile with Snap+Noxious+YawgW+Black Lotus/Time Walk and you will very dissapointed on Recoup performance.
- Gifts is a combo card and you have to use it on this way. You have to use both aspects of the cards, the graveyard fill one and the pure card advantage one to fully benefit the four mana you spend on it.
- Repeal is best friend of combo-control players. It ups the storm, ups the mana with Mana Crypt and can resolve temporarily annoying permanents like oath, containment, delver, cage... or won a ton of time against aggresive decks. Its also have a lot sinergy with other cards you have to play in your deck like Snapcaster Mage, Noxious Revival and Mana Drain.

Burning Gifts works. It is as good as any other deck in Vintage right now. Maybe it is a little thoughtful because you have a lot of options, and you have to chain a lot of spells to win the game instead of throwing Vault-Key (mongocombo) or oath into play, but the deck is very good if you can play at a good magic level. The deck is elitist and I can't recommend it to everyone, but this also makes it very fun because you have a lot of room for improvement for your own play. I have lost very few games where I could not have played better, and I like it.
My list have a positive UW Mentor matchup and I have only some problems beating remora lists, but they are not too popular (and I think  they are not very good for a open metagame neither). These decks have to tap out on his own turn too often and this is very good for us to win before they untap.

[jamestosetti]

It had been a while since I'd played control, so started thinking about my options. I've been reading about all of the interesting new options like Gifts, Mentor, and the best draw engine, so I decided to test my own thoughts on these decks. Its never easy to brew a tier one control deck, so I made a deck that contained what I think is one of the best draw engines in Vintage, and I wanted to see how the meta would be able to deal with it. My thoughts on Gifts Ungiven is that two is unnecessary unless your playing some very dedicated strategy, and that it is meant to build momentum. If you can snap it back, you don't really need two. I will post my list, and try to explain the game plan as best I can. I've played a few matches, so I'm still testing, but I have won them. This deck is meant to achieve card advantage against decks that have the same goal, while attempting to tinker something in against Mentor. Fish decks or hate bears have been showing up, so I wanted the deck to be resilient to these strategies. Fortunately the Tinker package is good against Shops and hate bears, so that helps. This deck is probably not the strongest against Oath, but I hear Oath is hated out, so I designed it to just give Oath a good game.

2 Mana Drain
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
2 Flusterstorm
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
1 Gifts Ungiven
2 Dig Through Time
3 Gush
3 Mental Misstep
3 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Tinker
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Blightsteel Colossus

1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Notion Thief

1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

2 Regrowth

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal

1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand

SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 4 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Trygon Predator
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Pithing Needle

My experience with this metagame is that whoever is able to utilize their draw engine wins the match. I haven't tested any Time Vault packages in this meta yet because I feel like using those slots for draw spells is a better option right now. I only use One Jace because of how many Mentor, hate bear, and Terra Nova decks I have seen. I have just been trying to maximize the capabilities or my draw engines in the decks I have made. Here are some thoughts on this draw engine. Assuming Gifts resolves, I can get Tinker, Recall, Regrowth, Snapcaster. From here, I can decide whether or not to snap back the Gifts Ungiven for: Regrowth, Dig Through Time, and two other cards (maybe Yawg Will, FOW, Mana Drain, Time Walk). It would just have to be a judgment call, but I think the Dig is a solid option to keep the momentum rolling, and you would also have two regrowth at this point which would be pretty tough for the opponent to deal with. I am not an expert on Gifts piles, but I have noticed that outpacing the opponents draw engine has yielded the highest success rate for me in this meta. In fact, I learned about snapping back Gifts from reading this thread. I didn't know how much fun that was going to be

[EnialisLiadon]

While 3-0'ing a 6-man vintage FNM is hardly definitive evidence of the efficacy of my list, I liked how it ran and am interesting in tuning it further. I suppose one could argue that it doesn't belong in this thread, considering the presence of multiple TfK. In any case, I had been testing various Gifts shells since its unrestriction and was dissatisfied with most all of them. Burning Gifts was awkward and mana-hungry (adding 2RR to the Tendrils kill via wishing twice was rough), I either missed red or still splashed it with terrible mana in Regrowth Gifts, and Gifts leaning on Night's Whisper lacked oomph. So I put Gifts aside and played various combo decks.

Then Thirst was unrestricted, so I put this together to bring to Pandemonium.

//Mana--26
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
7x SoLoMoxen
2x Island
1x Library of Alexandria
2x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Tolarian Academy
3x Underground Sea
3x Volcanic Island

//Dead cards--4
1x Blightsteel Colossus
1x Time Vault
1x Voltaic Key
1x Recoup

//Control--14
2x Flusterstorm
4x Force of Will
3x Mana Drain
2x Mental Misstep
1x Rebuild
2x Dack Fayden

//Business--16
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Brainstorm
1x Dig through Time
3x Gifts Ungiven
1x Mystical Tutor
3x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Time Walk
1x Tinker
1x Treasure Cruise

//Sideboard
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Duress
3x Ingot Chewer
3x Pulverize
2x Pyroclasm
2x Mountain

It is definitely in the vein of Gifts decks of old, with the Drains and Recoup. Speaking of the latter, I haven't minded it much at all. It's the best card to make Gifts game-winning by itself and with only taking up a single slot--Snapcaster and Noxious Revival take two, and while Snapcaster has more utility by itself than Recoup does, I still say what I hate most with Gifts is drawing dead cards, and Recoup cuts down on that while serving a vital role. It also feels good to Recoup a Time Walk, Treasure Cruise, or Demonic Tutor. It happens. Anyways.

I had recently included Vault/Key at the expense of the 4th Gifts and Empty the Warrens. Empty was serving the role of Tendrils, but allowing you to go off for 6-12 goblins quickly to win out of nowhere. It felt lackluster against Mentor/Pyromancer and felt redundant to Blightsteel--both generally required a big Will turn involving Time Walk.

Thirst's unrestriction was the main reason I wanted to sleeve up Gifts again. It gives the deck velocity and helps you build up resources for a big Gifts turn.

As for changes, I feel like the 3rd Misstep is needed if people are still going to be playing 2-3 Pyroblasts in their maindecks. I might also need to get a 4th Volc in there to accommodate Pulverize. The board is relatively untested. There were no shops decks at the event, so I was unable to try the Pulverize plan--which I know to be solid in Pyromancer decks--but am unsure of in mana-hungry decks like Gifts. Duress is mostly for Flusterstorm, but has upside against the uptick in combo I've seen lately. Skimping on dredge hate because I'm a ramblin' gamblin' man.

Anyone else trying Gifts out in the wake of this BR announcement? I'm excited to see how the meta shifts.