Can we answer a Mentor?

[mueller]

Abrupt Decay + Surgical Extraction is great against Mentor decks without any other threat. EE or Echoing Truth can clean up any remaining tokens.

Answers that aren't already Vintage playable are not good answers.

[xouman]

Abrupt Decay + Surgical Extraction is great against Mentor decks without any other threat. EE or Echoing Truth can clean up any remaining tokens.

Answers that aren't already Vintage playable are not good answers.

abrup + surgical + ee or et = 3 cards + 2 mana + 2 mana/2 lives

Not a great deal.

[mueller]

Those cards have general use and work independently of each other, unlike Elesh Norn or Sulfur Elemental

[EyeOfTheStorm]

Answers that aren't already Vintage playable are not good answers.

Slice and Dice was not Vintage playable before Young Pyromancer became a concern.

New threats require new answers. Though I haven't tested it, I doubt Surgical Extraction, a counterable 1 cmc spell that doesn't affect the board and requires two other cards to function fully, is the answer OP was looking for.

[diophan]

Not sure why you guys are complaining about a reasonable suggestion which against many lists removes every wincon in a sea of really out there ideas. Also for the most part new threats do not require new answers. Otherwise we'd have the same miserable sideboard problem that modern does.

[mueller]

Surgical Extraction requires another card to function, but that card can anything from a long list of obscurities such as Lightning Bolt, Abrupt Decay, Force of Will, Thoughtseize, Mana Drain, Dismember. It is a free instant without any color requirements (not, say, a 5WW creature). But by all means, let's continue lampooning it. God forbid you ever throw it away stripping out Force of Wills or Mental Missteps.

[Protoaddict]

Said it in a different thread, will say it here again.

Meddling mage is a card, it is in the right colors, and it literally has game against every deck in the format. Start a deck with 4 mages, fill out with cards against the meta, win games. I'll not even pretend I know what old MM decks look like but I sorta image they are like hatebears right? I think at this point I would build something tarting here:

4 Meddling Mage
2-3 Wincon (True Name Nemesis maybe)
0-1 relevant equipment to turn on mage (sword maybe, Maybe Jitte)
2-3 Jace
4 Force of will
4 Mental Misstep
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Ancestral recall
1 Timewalk

And just take it from there. If you have a grave based meta run Rest In Peace. If you are looking at creature matches, Stoneforge. There are options, all of them have strong game against mentor.

[youhavenogame]

Not sure why you guys are complaining about a reasonable suggestion which against many lists removes every wincon in a sea of really out there ideas. Also for the most part new threats do not require new answers. Otherwise we'd have the same miserable sideboard problem that modern does.

The problem is rather that you are leaning towards a 2-card-combo that needs specific circumstances to work, while these 2 cards otherwise don't help you to extend your game plan. While you can still fire off an Extraction to remove something else and gain some information in the process it is not a line you usually want to take, unless you are running Snapcaster as well.

Regarding the modern sideboards, and sorry for going off-topic here, but I don't think it is a big problem at all. There is still a certain metagame, may it be rather midrange heavy or rather combo heavy. A lot of answers are also very flexible and useful against different strategies. Predicting the metagame correctly can give you a huge edge. In Vintage on the other hand you often don't even need a Sideboard, but you are very happy to have one if you face Dredge or Shops Even though the blue decks are very different in playstyle, the maindeck of a blue deck is usually good enough to have a good fight against blue decks; occasionally you could board in addtional counterspells but it doesn't change that much to the equation. 

[WhiteLotus]

Sphinx of the Steel Wind with protection from Swords via Missteps is a fine trump, but it requires a deck intensely dedicated to doing that.

I've seen mentor easily race a griselbrand and even overpower dredge. Also they have missteps of their own and jaces so your plan is ultra unreliable. Don't get me wrong it's THE trump vs Delver, but mentor decks are quite different.

[TheBrassMan]

I've been trying Leyline of Singularity.

It's important to remember that with the current Legend rules, the Mentor player still gets to keep 1 Monk token as long as they want. 1 Mentor 1 Monk is significantly better than 1 Mentor, and a lot of my kills have been with only one non-summoning-sick monk in play (i.e., sometimes Leyline will do literally nothing)

[diopter]

Sphinx of the Steel Wind with protection from Swords via Missteps is a fine trump, but it requires a deck intensely dedicated to doing that.

I've seen mentor easily race a griselbrand and even overpower dredge. Also they have missteps of their own and jaces so your plan is ultra unreliable. Don't get me wrong it's THE trump vs Delver, but mentor decks are quite different.

I'm of the opinion that builds with Jaces and Mentors are extremely bad. These two cards sort of define the "tempo" of your strategy, if you will, and unfortunately they are entirely diametrically opposed.

Sphinx's lifelink AND vigilance abilities make racing actually less of an issue even against the good streamlined Mentor lists. Moreover, the crappy thing about answers like Slice and Dice is that you're forced into a defensive stance, and Mentor will eat you alive given time. Going over the top of Mentor involves keeping your head above water vs their army AND clocking them.

Opposing Missteps are problematic for sure. You basically have to be all-in on getting the Sphinx onto the table and protecting it. This is not a glom-on for existing decks, but a strategy unto itself.

Opposing Lightning Bolts can make the racing equation harder, but makes protection post-Sphinx a non-issue. Scout and play accordingly.

[mmcgeach]

I updated the first post with a list of suggestions so far.  I think there are some good ones, that I hadn't thought of.

[Wagner]

Really curious as why Starstorm is a good answer. You have to pay at least 5 reliably kill the mentor and even though it's instant, it seems way more efficient to play it in your turn. Wouldn't Earthquake (of the portal one) be better since it costs 1 red less, even though it will do 3-4 damage to you and opponent. It also comes 1 turn earlier against Bob, Snapcaster and espacially Pyromancer.

[Chubby Rain]

Fits the bill of an asymmetrical sweeper that is more mana efficient that Starstorm and hits more matchups than Massacre/etc. Great answer? Not really but probably belongs on the list.

IMO Surgical Extraction is fine as a card right now - hits Gifts pretty hard and becomes better as more decks are running more 4 ofs. There are games you can win with Surgical Extraction + Abrupt Decay against Mentor but this does seem pretty unreliable as an answer to the Mentor itself: Surgical is much more likely to hit their counters and/or card draw and impact the game in that way. Or Waste and Surgical Tundras. It's not a magic bullet but seems like it would have a decent amount of utility in decks already running Snapcaster Mages and discard.

As for Sphinx of the Steel Wind, I do not think any of the Tinker bots are great against Mentor decks. Sphinx is a relatively slow clock that is answerable with Jace/Swords but can actually be swung through with Mentor  and friends. Given enough turns, it's pretty easy to get Mentor tokens up to 7/7 and force the Sphinx to chump block (provided the attack isn't just lethal). You almost might just want to run Blightsteel to give your opponent the least amount of time to react.

[diopter]

Blightsteel won't protect you from getting killed by Mentor and 3 tokens with 3 additional spells played at, say, 13 life. This is a very common scenario and you will just lose there.

The above is a much more common scenario than a Monk going to 7/7. The above is a god draw. I'm not so concerns with losing to it (the same way I'm not going to try and beat Shops's god draws or Dredge's God draws... I'm mainly focused on tilting the mushy middle my way)

I've also tried Inkwell and Batterskull but they're terrible. Sphinx is really something else (though like I say, your deck has to be built around getting it in play).

I welcome my Mentor-packing opponent playing Jace. If this opponent wants to give me the tempo advantage, I'll gladly take it. Not that my Pyroblasts needs more targets...

[vaughnbros]

Starstorm can cycle which I think is the biggest reason to play it.  It also hits fliers like transformed delver.  Think of rebuild vs. hurkyl's. You are trading some efficiency for a situationally better spell that also has cycling.

In legacy terminus and supreme verdict are both powerful enough to see play.  These are probably the best answers, but also require you to be playing white.

[Wagner]

Starstorm can cycle which I think is the biggest reason to play it.  It also hits fliers like transformed delver.  Think of rebuild vs. hurkyl's. You are trading some efficiency for a situationally better spell that also has cycling.

Is that why people are playing Rebuild? I thought it was because it's was better against Shop because it allows you to bounce everything then play Mentor and all your artifacts to get tokens, not because it can cycle.

[nyghtrunner]

It's not an answer for your pyro or mentor builds, but Engineered Plague stomps on both Mentor and YPyro pretty hard. Mentor becomes a 1/1 with prowess, and tokens die to state as they hit play, before they can be pumped. YP and all her elementals just die, Delver has to already be flipped and on the board to live, and it's an answer that dodges Misstep completely. And it's kind of nice that they have to remove it before working to build their board again if you stick it.

Judging by the MTGO daily results, that card seems to be showing up in a lot of sideboards, and even the occasional copy in the main.

As for fog effects... If you go that route, Moment's Peace is probably a better way to go than a generic Fog. The 2cc isn't prohibitive against mentor or pyro, dodges misstep, and if you've got 5 mana, they have to counter it twice. Occasionally, it may even end up being double fog if you need it. It is far from a permanent answer, but if you're discussing fog already... Another alternative that dodges Misstep is Tangle, although I think the extra text there is worse than Flashback in the case of Moment's Peace.

[Chubby Rain]

Blightsteel won't protect you from getting killed by Mentor and 3 tokens with 3 additional spells played at, say, 13 life. This is a very common scenario and you will just lose there.

And Sphinx probably won't kill the opponent in 1-2 turns, giving you opponent the ability to draw a Delve spell and kill you through the Sphinx. That is besides the point though - I was just trying to highlight that none of the Tinker bots, including Sphinx, is a particularly good answer to Mentor. They basically get to run 4 Tinkers and 0 Robots.

The above is a much more common scenario than a Monk going to 7/7. The above is a god draw. I'm not so concerns with losing to it (the same way I'm not going to try and beat Shops's god draws or Dredge's God draws... I'm mainly focused on tilting the mushy middle my way)

Depends on how the Mentor deck is constructed, but this hasn't been rare in my experience. Well, it kind of has been as clicking through the triggers on MODO is pretty annoying and I only cast as many spells as necessary or my opponent does the math and concedes before I have to go through the motions...

I've also tried Inkwell and Batterskull but they're terrible. Sphinx is really something else (though like I say, your deck has to be built around getting it in play).

Agreed about Inkwell and Batterskull. I also really liked Sphinx before Mentor but right now I don't think any Tinker bot is great (Sphinx and Blightsteel being the best of bad options).

I welcome my Mentor-packing opponent playing Jace. If this opponent wants to give me the tempo advantage, I'll gladly take it. Not that my Pyroblasts needs more targets...

Again...depends on the variant. Mentor decks running Jace seem to be built more as control decks, in which case your ability to resolve that Pyroblast (or the Tinker itself) is going to be tested.

Starstorm can cycle which I think is the biggest reason to play it.  It also hits fliers like transformed delver.  Think of rebuild vs. hurkyl's. You are trading some efficiency for a situationally better spell that also has cycling.

In legacy terminus and supreme verdict are both powerful enough to see play.  These are probably the best answers, but also require you to be playing white.

Agreed, those are the pros but it does have cons (double red, more expensive). I think Mike's purpose with this thread is to establish a toolbox with defined pros and cons, not to nominate "Best Mentor Hate Piece". Similarly, Terminus is hurt by Brainstorm's restriction and Supreme Verdict is really hard on a typical Vintage manabase with 3 colored symbols, two of which being white. Their advantages are obvious though as both cards are among the best at what they do.

Is that why people are playing Rebuild? I thought it was because it's was better against Shop because it allows you to bounce everything then play Mentor and all your artifacts to get tokens, not because it can cycle.

That is one reason it can be "better". Cycling is also another reason. Cost (on Magic Online) is another.

[diopter]

Chubby Rain: I missed where you said Tinker bot. That's a good point - if you just run 1 tinker and the usual Demonic + topdeck tutors you are in for hurt - but there are both multiple ways to get to Tinker x 4 and also non-Tinker ways to put Sphinx into play. I'm exploring all these options in a Sphinx-dedicated deck.

[Chubby Rain]

Chubby Rain: I missed where you said Tinker bot. That's a good point - if you just run 1 tinker and the usual Demonic + topdeck tutors you are in for hurt - but there are both multiple ways to get to Tinker x 4 and also non-Tinker ways to put Sphinx into play. I'm exploring all these options in a Sphinx-dedicated deck.

Ah ok, I thought this discussion was more about hate pieces in general than specific decks. I've had fun with the Sphinx Tribal deck and casting Sphinx of the Steel Wind off Mana Drain mana and Cavern against Delver is one of the best feelings in Vintage. Good luck with your list!

[diopter]

Chubby Rain: I generally think hating on Mentor is going to give the Mentor player a TON of free wins. Over the top, or not at all!

I hate Mana Drain, but I've been enjoying Goblin Welder. The key of a Sphinx deck is to run multiple Sphinx. If it works, I'll post on TMD.

[gkraigher]

best cards vs mentor are the tabernacle at pendrell vale and moat. 

[Chubby Rain]

best cards vs mentor are the tabernacle at pendrell vale and moat. 

Moat is pretty awesome against Mentor. Tabernacle needs A LOT of help in my experience - as part of the Terra Nova or Stax mana denial plan, yes it can work. By itself though, the opponent only needs the Mentor and/or a couple of tokens to mount lethal. Heck, I killed an opponent yesterday with a single 10/10 (potentially 15/15) token. The Mentor nobly sacrificed itself to an oncoming Colossus to give its disciple a chance to bash for lethal. Which brings me to the conclusion that strategies can be effective against Mentor...go over the top or go under, attack their mana, hand and graveyard to limit the impact of Mentor when it sees play. I have not faced an individual card that was particularly effective against Mentor by itself.

[ben_berry]

I've been trying Leyline of Singularity.

It's important to remember that with the current Legend rules, the Mentor player still gets to keep 1 Monk token as long as they want. 1 Mentor 1 Monk is significantly better than 1 Mentor, and a lot of my kills have been with only one non-summoning-sick monk in play (i.e., sometimes Leyline will do literally nothing)

My though was that it can constrain a broader range of strategies instead of being really good against one.

[vaughnbros]

I think Mike's purpose with this thread is to establish a toolbox with defined pros and cons, not to nominate "Best Mentor Hate Piece".

While its all great to keep an open mind to the different options for beating mentor, the simple fact is that there probably is a best hate piece.  For example: There are many different shops hate cards, but it's been empirically shown that dack is still the best main deck option, and ingot chewer the best out of the board.  There are also many different dredge hate cards, but only a handful, grafdigger's cage, containment priest, nihil spellbomb, actually see a lot of play. 

I mean in reality any card that deals with a mass number of creatures or instant speed kills a creature can stop a lot of Mentor shenanigans.  Since there are so many options here it doesn't really do any good to list every single one of them, nominating the ones that you think are the best and is a much better approach to determining the best options.

[EyeOfTheStorm]

...Engineered Plague stomps on both Mentor and YPyro pretty hard.... YP and all her elementals just die, Delver has to already be flipped and on the board to live....

Just a quick note: you can either get Young Pyromancer and Delver OR the tokens. The tokens are Elementals and the Pyromancer and Delver are Humans (Shaman and Wizard/Insect, respectively.) I love Engineered Plague, but it's better against Mentor and a bunch of tokens than pyromancer and a bunch of tokens.

[Chubby Rain]

Just a quick note: you can either get Young Pyromancer and Delver OR the tokens. The tokens are Elementals and the Pyromancer and Delver are Humans (Shaman and Wizard/Insect, respectively.) I love Engineered Plague, but it's better against Mentor and a bunch of tokens than pyromancer and a bunch of tokens.

The Monk tokens are also not human so if the Mentor deck is running other Humans or Pyromancer, it doesn't hit them.

While its all great to keep an open mind to the different options for beating mentor, the simple fact is that there probably is a best hate piece.  For example: There are many different shops hate cards, but it's been empirically shown that dack is still the best main deck option, and ingot chewer the best out of the board.  There are also many different dredge hate cards, but only a handful, grafdigger's cage, containment priest, nihil spellbomb, actually see a lot of play. 

I mean in reality any card that deals with a mass number of creatures or instant speed kills a creature can stop a lot of Mentor shenanigans.  Since there are so many options here it doesn't really do any good to list every single one of them, nominating the ones that you think are the best and is a much better approach to determining the best options.

I disagree. All cards and decks are contextual...I'll buy you a beer at Eternal Extravaganza and we can talk about this more.

[youhavenogame]

Again...depends on the variant. Mentor decks running Jace seem to be built more as control decks, in which case your ability to resolve that Pyroblast (or the Tinker itself) is going to be tested.

Isn't diophan's version the most controlish so far? If he would want to run Jace he would have to cut either counters or carddraw and he would probably need a few more mana sources, which would result in cutting more cards. Having said that, I could imagine something like 1 Jace over a Gush or a DTT maybe. At worst it's a way to deal with Elesh Norn and an alternate win con against Surgical Extraction

[mmcgeach]

I think Mike's purpose with this thread is to establish a toolbox with defined pros and cons, not to nominate "Best Mentor Hate Piece".

Yeah, but, maybe there is a top-tier of hate pieces, each of which makes sense in a different kind of deck.

What I'd really like to do is get a list of stuff people have actually used to some success, and then sort of figure out what kinds of decks could leverage those answers into a decent game vs. mentor decks.  My suspicion is that Mentor is so powerful a threat, with such poor answers available to it, that it limits the kinds of decks that can be expected to succeed against it.