[DTK] - Hedonist's Trove

[MaximumCDawg]

DISCLAIMER: I am posting about this card not because I think it's a Vintage powerhouse, but because I think the ability is quite powerful and unique, and it could lead to a very interesting discussion about what this effect SHOULD cost.  



Translation from MTGSalvation:

Hedonist's Trove
5BB
Enchantment

When Hedonist's Trove enters the battlefield, exile all cards from target opponent's graveyard.
You may play land cards exiled with Hedonist's Trove.

You may cast non-land cards exiled with Hedonist's Trove. You can't cast more than one spell this way each turn.

So, this card.  Right off the bat, it costs 7 mana and it can't be used to abuse Storm.  While there's currently a thread going on about how playable a 6 mana Dragon is, I'm not convinced that this casting cost is playable in Vintage.  This is Grislebrand mana with fewer ways of cheating it out.  This card is a poster child for Dragons of Tarkir - big, splashy, and unplayable.

Fun, though.  The effect this generates is very powerful.  In essence, you deny your opponent a resource and then set yourself up for land drops and a psuedo tutor effect every turn for the rest of the game (probably).  You will probably get access to a variety of fetchlands to thin your own deck, countermagic, and removal. It's very strong.

What would this effect have to cost to make it playable in Vintage or Legacy?  Or, what kind of enabler has to be printed to make this effect playable?  I've been noodling over it, and I feel like this kind of effect wants to be priced at 4 mana or less to actually be playable.  It gives you an effect probably as powerful as Jace or Gifts, but not tremendously moreso.  Even pricing it at 1BBB would probably make it playable off Rituals.  Of course, this kind of cost would absolutely wreck Modern, so that's not happening.  

As far as enablers go, it has some interesting synergy with Academy Rector.  Sac a rector, nuke the yard from orbit at instant speed and now you're drawing gas for awhile.  The test, for me, is whether the card is here situationally better than Omniscience, and I think it is.  

[Protoaddict]

In what way is this better than Omniscience, or in what way are they comparable? Decks that play Omniscience typically win the game as soon as its played, where as this is no such thing. I actually think in vintage this effect is rather poor for a number of reasons, and that this would have to be costed at a cost that would be broken in other formats for it to have a chance to see play.

Think about the decks in the format right? This first effect is only a tormods crypt until you are using the rest of the card, so against dredge its useless. Many other decks that really abuse the yard in this format do so buy delving, meaning this loses most value it may of had, snapcaster, which means they can do things in response and rob you of value for much cheaper, or do not care.

If this thing cost 3 mana, even then I am not sure when or where you play it. What do you really get from it earlier on, a few fetches? If your hoping to get a timewalk or a recall, would it not be better to just run praetors grasp at that point and steal the damn thing?

I think if this cost one or even two mana, it would be decent against decks that it should be good against and maybe playable as an incremental CA engine, but you have to be able to steal more than like 2 cards from your opponent for it to be better than sign in blood.

[MaximumCDawg]

In what way is this better than Omniscience, or in what way are they comparable?

Omniscience doesn't do anything if you've got an empty hand.  That's all I got.

If this thing cost 3 mana, even then I am not sure when or where you play it. What do you really get from it earlier on, a few fetches? If your hoping to get a timewalk or a recall, would it not be better to just run praetors grasp at that point and steal the damn thing?

At three mana you play it on turn 2 or 3 or so, and you're probably netting a counterspell, a piece of removal, a few lands, and a few cantrips.  Whichever you happen to need at the time.  That's pretty good value.

[Protoaddict]

This does nothing against an empty yard. Your move sir.

[MaximumCDawg]

This does nothing against an empty yard. Your move sir.

Hah, I said situationally, didn't I?

The idea would be so that your Rector.dec has options you can dream about as you lose before managing to resolve Rector.

[Wagner]

This does nothing against an empty yard. Your move sir.

Different uses pretty much. Omniscience is used in a deck that is made to break it and win on the spot. It's basically a combo piece. This card, should it be decently priced, is more of an engine that will let you get good card advantage.

Although not amazing against Shops, it would most likely get you some Wasteland and possibly Mishra's or City of Traitors which would be helpful.

[fsecco]

It comes into play with Academy Rector, but I'd rather play a Yawg Bargain or Omniscience than this. I mean, this "could" be played as a 1-of in a Rector deck, maybe in the SB. It will normally net you a few good cards and remove their graveyard - but it's probably still too slow against Dredge, even if you Show and Tell it.

[Meddling Mike]

[Chubby Rain]

"Situationally better" is probably the laziest justification for a card's "playability". Obsessive Search is "situationally better" than Ancestral Recall in that it can't be Misdirected, doesn't deck you if you have 2 cards in your library, and who knows...your opponent may hit it with a Hymn to Tourach. You have to create a deck in which the card being "situationally better" outweighs the opportunity cost of playing a different card.

[MaximumCDawg]

"Situationally better" is probably the laziest justification for a card's "playability".

I said it wasn't playable.   My point is that this EFFECT is potentially playable,  and unique.  It's kind of like adding yard hate to Agenda.  I'm interested to know what might make this effect competitive.

[Chubby Rain]

As far as enablers go, it has some interesting synergy with Academy Rector.  Sac a rector, nuke the yard from orbit at instant speed and now you're drawing gas for awhile.  The test, for me, is whether the card is here situationally better than Omniscience, and I think it is.  

Again, the "situationally better" test you are talking about is a horribly incomplete measure of a card. It's not worth a slot...

It's effect really isn't great at any mana cost...you are dependent on your opponent's deck to make it good. They have to have a stocked graveyard, you have to resolve the card, then you have to have the ability to abuse it. Sure, you can come up with scenarios in which it is game-ending, but those seem incredibly unlikely and difficult to pull off. It is also worse now with the presence of Delve cards in the metagame.

[vaughnbros]

Yeah the effect is typically not going to be much better than that of Nihil Spellbomb.  The fact that it costs 5BB is laughable.  For anywhere close to its mana cost it would need to have leyline of the void's ability attached to it, or be able to play any land/spell your opponent had exiled for it to be an even remotely decent card.  As is it would probably need to be like 1B at most to be playable in vintage, and even then I don't think it would necessarily even be the graveyard hate of choice.

[fsecco]

We gotta confirm the translation, but as far as I know this card is different from Agenda in that "You can't cast more than one spell THIS WAY each turn". Or: you can't cast as many spells as you like, but only 1 via Trove per turn.

[brianpk80]

While there's currently a thread going on about how playable a 6 mana Dragon is, I'm not convinced that this casting cost is playable in Vintage.  

I'm confused.  In that discussion, you described Tezzeret and Bomberman as "hate bear" decks (?), described 6-drops as unplayable despite the proliferation of Consecrated Sphinxes, then ran off and started a thread about an unplayable 7 mana enchantment.  Has someone hacked your account?   

[fsecco]

Let's not discuss casting costs. Griselbrand, Omniscience, Emrakul, Elesh-Norn, etc, this are all playable cards. They don't come into play hardcasted (well, eventually they do), so that's not the issue.

[ben_berry]

You need to cheat this into play when your opponent has a well stocked graveyard. To me this would only happen off show and tell. If you're casting show and tell, relying on you're opponents graveyard sounds very risky and not game ending. If your opponent is casting show and tell, then this is terrible as a hate card.

[nyghtrunner]

I'd be far more intrigued if it said "Remove the top 10 cards from target player's library. You may play lands exiled this way. You may play a spell exiled this way once per turn."

I think having to hit the GY requires too many conditions to be met, and needing to play at least somewhat similar decks is definitely a drawback (This is just a bad Crypt against Dredge, and I would wager it's not terribly useful against Stax). I think best use case is in a blue deck against another blue deck, both largely control builds, and if I were to try to cheat it into play, I'd probably just rather have Yawgmoth's Bargain or Necropotence (maybe even Phyrexian Arena) as a card advantage engine. And as someone mentioned earlier, Delve is a thing, and DTT doesn't even need to resolve to remove all their best cards and blank this thing.

Interesting card, but my gut says bulk rare that will only see play in casual big deck formats.

[coldcrow]

This has to be compared to Ywill effects, and it does very unfavorably.

The gravehate effect is useless at this cost.
Assuming a stocked graveyard it still is situational as you will not be able to cast every spell (colours).
It does not cheat mana.

This has to be at 3-4 cmc to be even considered for serious play.

[MaximumCDawg]

While there's currently a thread going on about how playable a 6 mana Dragon is, I'm not convinced that this casting cost is playable in Vintage.  

I'm confused.  In that discussion, you described Tezzeret and Bomberman as "hate bear" decks (?), described 6-drops as unplayable despite the proliferation of Consecrated Sphinxes, then ran off and started a thread about an unplayable 7 mana enchantment.  Has someone hacked your account?  

Haha, nope.  In the prior thread, you guys were talking about using a 6 - 7 casting cost Shivan Dragon with hexproof or cant be counter or some other such nonsense and I assumed we were talking about a Wizards or GW deck or something.  A bomberman shell can certainly generate more mana, but I remain firmly skeptical that Vintage has evolved to the point where we want superpowered Mahamoti Djinns to finish out the game.  Sphinx, I get that, since it has an end-the-game body attached to a known playable effect (Notion Thief) but I am totally not seeing any of the Big Phat Dragons Rawr getting any play at all.

Note also that I think the brief era of fatties is coming to a close as people start dipping back into White for Mentor and hanging up the Bolts for StP.

This thread was more like wondering if this EFFECT is playable, not this card, because it costs too much.  I think people are too rushed to poop on it; it feels like a Tormod's Crypt attached to a cheap Planar Portal to me.

[nyghtrunner]

I think people are too rushed to poop on it; it feels like a Tormod's Crypt attached to a cheapweak Planar Portal to me.

Fixed that for you.

The crypt comparison is obvious, but to me, this card is a lot closer to what would happen if Wrexial and Tormod's Crypt had a baby. Wrexial's effect is powerful, for sure, but he's far from being a Demonic Tutor on wheels. I like the effect, but I do think hitting the GY is actually pretty weaksauce overall with the current state of the game. DTT goes a long way towards blanking this effect against the opponent you want to land this against, regardless of whether Trove costs 3-4 or 7cc.

Even if Trove were 3-4CC, how often will it truly end up being better than Memory Plunder on a DTT? I think often, the best case scenario won't be too much better than that.

[brianpk80]

Haha, nope.  In the prior thread, you guys were talking about using a 6 - 7 casting cost Shivan Dragon with hexproof or cant be counter or some other such nonsense and I assumed we were talking about a Wizards or GW deck or something.  

The thread was about Ojutai who is not playable and in that thread, it was contrasted with Dromoka who is playable.  The next time I bring out Salvagers Oath, it will absolutely have Dromoka in the 75.  Anyone who's been punished by Cavern Abolisher in that list understands why. 

[WhiteLotus]

Haha, nope.  In the prior thread, you guys were talking about using a 6 - 7 casting cost Shivan Dragon with hexproof or cant be counter or some other such nonsense and I assumed we were talking about a Wizards or GW deck or something.  

The thread was about Ojutai who is not playable and in that thread, it was contrasted with Dromoka who is playable.  The next time I bring out Salvagers Oath, it will absolutely have Dromoka in the 75.  Anyone who's been punished by Cavern Abolisher in that list understands why. 

If anyone can make that dragon work it's probably brian, he already popularized so called unplayable creatures with high cmc like Elesh norn, Magus of the future and Inferno titan HARDCASTED into play. 

I myself have played around with these cards in decks that would power them out through Mana drain, academy, ancient tomb and trinket mage for lotus. And with experience, I know now that if the ability is powerful enough (ie it wins the game while disrupting oppo), 6 cmc creatures are actually a lot easier to pull off than one thinks (in blue mirrors) and they will win you a lot of games other cards couldn't.

Dromoka certainly has a very desirable effect, my main concerns are the colored requirements so the decks that would want to abuse her like a uber xantid swarm won't be able to cast it, and the card is probably too slow for those decks. Would have been much better with a smaller body, 4 cmc and pitchability to fow.

Same thing for hedonist trove, a vintage desirable effect just not the right mana cost for it.

[boxian]

I glazed over when I read this card the first time around and didn't see the CMC or the thing about casting spells, so I thought of another card that I like a lot more, and since this is just a discussion thread, I'll share

Crucible the Enchantment BBB
Enchantment

When ~ ETB, exile target player's graveyard. If a land would enter the targeted player's graveyard from anywhere, exile it instead.

You may play land cards exiled with ~.

So basically, I think the real card is terrible but graveyard hate+value seems interesting so I would be on board playing something like a RIP for lands with added utility.