[Free article] The Best Draw Engine in Vintage

[GrandpaBelcher]

Dark Lord of the Smith Stephen Menendian recommended that I post this.

http://legitmtg.com/competitive/the-vintage-advantage-the-best-draw-engine-in-vintage/

Basically it puts the draw engine of

4 Dig Through Time
4 Gush
4 Preordain
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder

Into several settings and points out how degenerate it is. Thanks for reading!

[Ten-Ten]

Very nice read, indeed.
I have been working on a bomberman list running 4 Gush/ 4 Dig Through Time without Fastbond but eventually ended up replacing Bomberman parts with more control, Mentors and 2 Wasteland/ Strip mine.

So, Leyline of the void, Mana drain, and Grand Abolisher get better from here on out!! Yes! 

[gribdogs]

Nat, I always enjoy your articles.  This sounds like a fun engine to play around with.

[MaximumCDawg]

So... is Dark Confidant just done, now?  It wasn't two years ago that he was being described as one of the most powerful turn 1 plays in Vintage. 

[Ten-Ten]

Since Dig through time was spoiled, It felt familiar...it reminded me of merchant scroll for the role it played in the Gush and Gifts engines except possibly more powerful simply for flexibility.
Seems people have opted DtT over Gifts. Although Gifts still is most powerful.

[Islandswamp]

These are indeed awesome. I'm glad to see more vintage content, and really good stuff at that.

[desolutionist]

It used to be:

4 Brainstorm
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Gush
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall

Merchant Scroll is replaced with Dig through Time/Treasure Cruise.
Preordain replaces Brainstorm.

[vaughnbros]

Merchant Scroll is replaced with Dig through Time/Treasure Cruise.
Preordain replaces Brainstorm.

The crazy thing is that merchant scroll isn't even good enough to warrant 1 slot in these decks anymore.

[Ten-Ten]

Merchant Scroll is replaced with Dig through Time/Treasure Cruise.
Preordain replaces Brainstorm.

The crazy thing is that merchant scroll isn't even good enough to warrant 1 slot in these decks anymore.

How so?
I would much rather run a single Mscroll over treasure cruise. Maybe not in delver but almost always in any other Blue deck. Counts as DTT or GIFTS #5, imho.

[GrandpaBelcher]

I definitely play Scroll to get Dig, Gush, and counterspells as necessary.

[desolutionist]

Games can be tempo oriented these days, so I could see why you would want more immediate effect. Spending a turn to Scroll for Dig, so that you may then spend a turn to Dig for X can be slow.

Decks also used to play Fastbond and Yawgmoth's Will so that Scroll for Gush was an absurd combo.

[vaughnbros]

Merchant Scroll is replaced with Dig through Time/Treasure Cruise.
Preordain replaces Brainstorm.

The crazy thing is that merchant scroll isn't even good enough to warrant 1 slot in these decks anymore.

How so?

It's not in the Mentor, doomsday, dragon, or Tezz deck posted in this article.  It's rarely ever included in mentor and delver lists I've seen, which are the most common decks abusing this engine. 

Paying 1U extra to cast many of these spells makes them significantly less effective. Gush doesn't generate mana.  Dig is no longer efficient at 1UUU.  Brainstorm for 1UU isn't good at all.  And even 1UU for ancestral isn't that great considering it can be missteped and misdirected.

We've seen a similar trend with cards like regrowth, and burning wish coming off the restricted list and having very little impact.  Adding 2 mana to many of the best spells in magic makes them substantially worse, bordering unplayable. 

To sum these cards are good for their efficiency the addition of 2 mana into the equation removes that advantage.

[evouga]

While it's entirely possible the Dig engine is the best in Vintage right now, one consequence of running few lands and many cantrips is that you become soft vs shops. Even with Swords and Ingot Chewers the Mentor vs Shops matchup feels lopsided, to the point where I can consistently 3-1 or 4-0 daily events with shops despite being only a vaguely-competent pilot.

[serracollector]

If adding two mana to find a significant spell is so weak should we unrestrict Merchant Scroll and Demonic Tutor? I think not sir.

[vaughnbros]

If adding two mana to find a significant spell is so weak should we unrestrict Merchant Scroll and Demonic Tutor? I think not sir.

I'd really prefer not to open the restricted list can of worms.

Demonic tutor is an entirely different animal as it does not have restrictions on what it can tutor (unlike merchant scroll and burning wish) nor does it get hit by graveyard hate nor require you to have previously played the card (regrowth).

As for merchant scroll when people stopped playing drain and hurkyls I think it lost a lot of its value.  It can really only find Force of will or a draw spell in most of these decks.  Adding 2 mana to those spells in particular is not good.  If unrestricted merchant scroll could have a substantial impact as you would be more inclined to play cards that it can find, like Fire/Ice, Hurkyl's, and other situationally good blue instants would become more viable.  But more notably scroll finds Flash, which I think is the bigger reason that it remains on the restricted list. 

[JACO]

While it's entirely possible the Dig engine is the best in Vintage right now, one consequence of running few lands and many cantrips is that you become soft vs shops. Even with Swords and Ingot Chewers the Mentor vs Shops matchup feels lopsided, to the point where I can consistently 3-1 or 4-0 daily events with shops despite being only a vaguely-competent pilot.

This has been one of my issues with the 'best draw engine in Vintage.' You should do very well against most other blue decks, but decks that are trying to interact with you right off the bat on turns 1, 2, and 3 putting you on the back foot are much more difficult for these 18-20 mana source decks to deal with. You can try to cast a bunch of cantrips and draw a bunch of cards, but it often doesn't do you any good if you're just dead, or in a position that you can't cast anything relevant on the fourth or fifth turn. You need time (and mana) to convert the card advantage into a win.

That being said, this is a sweet article, and I'd encourage anybody who hasn't already read it to do so!

[DuKeLiO]

But with all these draw is pretty easy to assemble any combo like tendrils, Vault-Key, Tinker or Monastery Mentor. I played two decks with this engine last months and was easy to do. With Oath win-con I wasn't worried even against MUD.
I think Dig Through Time will not go unrestricted for too long.

[diopter]

Preordain/Gush are the real problem. I'd never go below 4 for either of these. I could go to 1 DTT and not blink.

[youhavenogame]

While it's entirely possible the Dig engine is the best in Vintage right now, one consequence of running few lands and many cantrips is that you become soft vs shops. Even with Swords and Ingot Chewers the Mentor vs Shops matchup feels lopsided, to the point where I can consistently 3-1 or 4-0 daily events with shops despite being only a vaguely-competent pilot.

This has been one of my issues with the 'best draw engine in Vintage.' You should do very well against most other blue decks, but decks that are trying to interact with you right off the bat on turns 1, 2, and 3 putting you on the back foot are much more difficult for these 18-20 mana source decks to deal with. You can try to cast a bunch of cantrips and draw a bunch of cards, but it often doesn't do you any good if you're just dead, or in a position that you can't cast anything relevant on the fourth or fifth turn. You need time (and mana) to convert the card advantage into a win.

That being said, this is a sweet article, and I'd encourage anybody who hasn't already read it to do so!

And that was different before the days of our draw engine in which way? It is not like people cut Force of Will to fit in another Dig... and what does have running 18-20 mana to do with it? Are you specifically talking about Shops? If so, then how does a draw engine that puts more consistency in a game plan weakens that matchup? It is a cute misconception that running more lands helps in any way. It only helps if your opponent doesn't have a threat and you actually have to time to build up. Having 4 lands in hand doesn't help against Lodestone beats. Having 4 lands in hand still doesn't make your spells cast less and you still have to wait another turn because of their spheres... oh, and another turn... and another... cool how you make all these land drops. Chalice resolves? Wasteland to put you back another turn anyway? Does it really matter if you have 5 lands or 6 in play if any cantrip costs at least 4 mana to cast anyway? Not the cantrips or lower land counts make the Shop matchup weak, it's rather cards like Misstep or Flusterstorm that are just dead, but needed in anticipation to beat the blue decks which make 3/4rds of all decks.

Preordain/Gush are the real problem. I'd never go below 4 for either of these. I could go to 1 DTT and not blink.

Gush is an interesting card with many interactions and a lot of depth, but at the end of the day it only draws 2 random cards. They might help, they might be useless. Dig on the other is just insane and makes you keep going and going once you reached a specific setup. Also, calling Preordain a problem lol. You better try some Modern, even there people want to see Serum Visions get banned so you might find some friends there.

[evouga]

With 4 lands in hand, you have some chance to find and resolve a Lightning Bolt/Swords to Plowshares/Nature's Claim/etc. With one land in hand, GG, on to game 2.

[serracollector]

I have to agree that if there is a problem it is Gush. The reason is that its free. If Gush were put back on the restricted list I think both Cruise and Dig would lose a lot of thier power. This is just my opinion tho. Preordain is no brainstorm and I think is perfectly fine. Maybe Ill just start running Opt...

[Stormanimagus]

I have to agree that if there is a problem it is Gush. The reason is that its free. If Gush were put back on the restricted list I think both Cruise and Dig would lose a lot of thier power. This is just my opinion tho. Preordain is no brainstorm and I think is perfectly fine. Maybe Ill just start running Opt...

I doubt that they'll ever restrict Gush again because it is viewed by most as a pillar of the format.

Pillars Currently:

Mishra's Workshop
Bazaar of Baghdad
Gush
Oath
Dark Ritual (arguably not even a thing anymore)
Mana Drain (arguably not even a thing anymore)

Null Rod/Stony Silence (as a "hate" pillar)

I believe that every card on the pillars list is restriction worthy (except maybe ritual and mana drain) but Wizards won't touch those cards because they establish decks in the format that Wizards is ok with existing.

I am also worried about the power of Gush, but I don't think it is fair to take away Gush and leave these other pillars intact, especially Workshop.

-Storm

[diopter]

Not saying it should be restricted (although I'm not objective because I love the strategy) but Preordain and Gush are the reason the strategy is good.

Drawing and playing these cards leads to a lot of winning.
Not drawing and not playing these cards leads to a lot of losing.

I'm not really sure how better to describe it than that... it's an observation gleaned from hundreds of test games.

[Flash_Hulk]

Not saying it should be restricted (although I'm not objective because I love the strategy) but Preordain and Gush are the reason the strategy is good.

Drawing and playing these cards leads to a lot of winning.
Not drawing and not playing these cards leads to a lot of losing.

I'm not really sure how better to describe it than that... it's an observation gleaned from hundreds of test games.

I have to wholeheartedly agree with this synopsis.

Gush is absolutely nuts, and far more relevant than: "just two random cards".

It produces quasi mana acceleration, fuels Dack, which fuels delve, which produces back breaking card advantage. Period.

My concern with the current draw package for blue is the restriction of design space. It's so good and efficient that deck building becomes very linear (I thought I would never complain about such an issue); the "Gush archetype" simply swaps out kill conditions whilst leaving the shell of the entire deck nearly untouched. Innovation has been replaced by simple numbers preference on counter magic.

I'm not saying a restriction is warranted (though I can't imagine Dig not getting restricted, this card is just sick), it just seems like the meta has become skewed toward Gush vs Workshops.

[Chubby Rain]

Preordain is obviously a good card but other options exist and are of a similar power level. For instance, the Grixis Pyromancer that won the SCG Legacy tournament in Cleveland this past weekend ran 4 Brainstorm, 4 Gitaxian Probe, 4 Thought Scour, 1 Ponder, and 0 Preordains. Oh, and of course 4 Digs. You can make the argument that the power level of cards is more variable in Vintage than in Legacy and so the scry is more valuable than the mill or information, but the point I'm trying to make is that we have plenty of options as far as 1 mana cantrips go and restricting Preordain isn't going to impact the engine to a large degree. Gush is also very powerful but not 100% necessary for the engine - it could be replaced by a combination of cantrips, planeswalkers, Thirst, etc and still be enough to fuel delve, albeit not to the same extent.

Basically, if Preordain is restricted, I see decks transitioning to one of the many other cantrips and the engine more or less unchanged. If Gush is restricted, I see decks (not Delver but Mentor) going more planeswalker heavy with Jace a reasonable option without Gush. The engine is a bit slower but arguably still quite powerful. I think you absolutely have to hit Dig through Time to derail the engine.

[Stormanimagus]

Who was playing 4 Brainstorm again?

-Storm

[Twaun007]

Who was playing 4 Brainstorm again?

-Storm

Jason Smith.

 

[Naixin]

Does anyone else feel like playing 4 Digs and 1 Cruise is too taxing on the Graveyard? I used to run 3 Digs and 0 Cruise and 2 Snapcaster Mages in UWr mentor but i've been trying out 4 Dig/1 Cruise and it seems like Snapcaster just got worse. Either that or I suck.

[Chubby Rain]

Does anyone else feel like playing 4 Digs and 1 Cruise is too taxing on the Graveyard? I used to run 3 Digs and 0 Cruise and 2 Snapcaster Mages in UWr mentor but i've been trying out 4 Dig/1 Cruise and it seems like Snapcaster just got worse. Either that or I suck.

Snapcaster definitely gets worse with that configuration - most decks that run the full 5 Delve spells omit him. Also, he lacks synergy with Gush. If you do want to play him though, you might want to try Thought Scour as it's better at fueling Delve and Snapcaster than the other cantrips.

[serracollector]

I still think that Gush alongside Dack are the real culprits for making the delve spells so broken. You have to pay for and cast six to seven cantrips compared to a Gush for free chuck the lands to Dack and your two thirds or more of the way to a very cheap Cruise or Dig. If they restrict Dig that changes the best draw engine to four Gush four Preordain one of Acall Brainstorm Ponder Cruise and Dig and two to three Dack. Is that really any different? Gush fuels so much with all the others as raw card advantage. Most definitely more than two random cards. Its more like best of my top four which translates into Dig meaning best four of my top eleven. Quite ridiculous.