[Free article] The Best Draw Engine in Vintage

[diopter]

Legacy has Brainstorm so those guys can paper over stuff like Thought Scour.

The first time I whiff on a double Thought Scour opener in Vintage will be the only time, as I would subsequently throw that build in the trash.

Preordain is somehow underrated here, which is boggling my mind. How are you guys winning without it? How are your mulligans not horrific? How are you not mulliganing to five all the time?

[Chubby Rain]

I still think that Gush alongside Dack are the real culprits for making the delve spells so broken. You have to pay for and cast six to seven cantrips compared to a Gush for free chuck the lands to Dack and your two thirds or more of the way to a very cheap Cruise or Dig. If they restrict Dig that changes the best draw engine to four Gush four Preordain one of Acall Brainstorm Ponder Cruise and Dig and two to three Dack. Is that really any different? Gush fuels so much with all the others as raw card advantage. Most definitely more than two random cards. Its more like best of my top four which translates into Dig meaning best four of my top eleven. Quite ridiculous.

I agree...Gush + Dack are definitely at the boundary of being restricted (which means Gush is probably restrictable). And that makes sense...the card was restricted before. Dig has crossed that line...even if it's just best 3 out of 9 (with Preordain), it's still probably too good.

Legacy has Brainstorm so those guys can paper over stuff like Thought Scour.

I'm not sure what this means.

The first time I whiff on a double Thought Scour opener in Vintage will be the only time, as I would subsequently throw that build in the trash.

Preordain is somehow underrated here, which is boggling my mind. How are you guys winning without it? How are your mulligans not horrific? How are you not mulliganing to five all the time?

I'm not underrating it...I specifically said it was a good card. I just also said that there are similar cards that could take its place were it to be restricted.

[diopter]

Chubby: it means I think Thought Scour is really bad (having tried it) and that Brainstorm is covering up that glaring mistake.

Re: Preordain - there is no unrestricted comparable that's even close. Serum Visions is really bad, I've tried. Sleight of Hand is the only remote possibility, but not seeing that third card down is deal-breaking - in the midgame, clearing off land-land is often the difference between a tight win and a crushing loss. All the other options are awful. I would not be caught dead playing Probes or Scours in the slots that Preordain occupies. These 4 slots dictate how the rest of the build looks and how good those Gushes can actually be.

I'm not sure I'd even want to play Gush without Preordain anymore - what is the advantage gained over the hibernating Gifts? What would I even be Gushing into? It would truly be two random cards, instead of busted insanity like it is now.

As for Dig - a great way to put the nail in the coffin of a game post-Gush, but man, how do you 4-Dig players not tilt every time you mull or double-mull into a 2-Dig opener and lose horribly as a result? A mulligan into 2 Preordain is great, and 2 Gushes in the first 6 is fine as long as the other 4 cards + 1/2 topdecks can get me to two Island by turn 2.

[Naixin]

After further testing, I came to the conclusion

1. Preordain is insane. I would never run less than 4.
2. 4 Dig and 1 Cruise is a bit much. 3 Dig or 2 Dig/1 Cruise is too little. I think the correct number is 3 Dig and 1 Cruise.

Opinions?

Also, if dig get's restricted, what do you think would take its place? Instead of 4 Digs that a lot of decks run, maybe 1 Dig, 1 Merchant Scroll, 1 Mystical Tutor, 1 random bomb? Idk.

[serracollector]

I was not joking when I said maybe its time I test Opt. It is an instant which reads scry one draw one. I do not think preordain needs restricted. Personally I didnt think ponder did either but I am a firm believer that Gush should of never came off the list. If they did restrict Gush and Dig they would more than likely unrestrict Thirst for Knowledge which may lead to another linear draw strategy but at least all the spells would cost mana and not enable decks to run fourteen or less lands they can just filter into business. This would open up more variants of builds if not more archetypes in general tho. Dont get me wrong I absolutely love Mentor but I am not liking the meta of Mentor delve/Oath/MUD and thats about it. Quite mundane.

[Chubby Rain]

Chubby: it means I think Thought Scour is really bad (having tried it) and that Brainstorm is covering up that glaring mistake.

Well, I didn't know you tried it. That's pretty definitive there - you should let Jason Smith, Chris Anderson, Dave Shiels and all these Legacy stalwarts know that Thought Scour is just bad and they should stop running it in their top 8 lists.

Rather than calling it a "glaring mistake", why not mention the synergy between Brainstorm, Cabal Therapy, Tasigur, Snapcaster Mage, Sword of the Meek, and Dig through Time, and how these players constructed their decks to take advantage of Thought Scour? Because I'm pretty sure they didn't accidentally insert Thought Scour into their decks because they forgot about Preordain and Ponder.

In Vintage, I have found Thought Scour to be good particularly in the Shops match up. Being an instant, you can cast it during your upkeep in response to a Tangle Wire and the extra two cards in the graveyard are very relevant when it comes to powering Delve spells through Spheres. It has some additional value against Vamp and Mystical tutors as well as randomly winning games against Doomsday (always fun). It won't really help you make lands drops and that's one of the reasons Preordain is superior in these land-light Gush decks but seeing as the topic of discussion was the different components of the draw engine, I thought it was worth mentioning that Preordain is not essential to the draw engine and that there are alternatives if Preordain were to be restricted. 

[diopter]

Chubby: sarcasm aside, these are powerful effects to strive for. IMO Brainstorm is doing all the real heavy lifting, and I'm pretty comfortable in this thought, but you see it differently and that's fine.

On the Vintage side, I just totally disagree with your opinion. I really don't know how to describe my viewpoint, let me just describe my experience:
- I used to not play Preordain in my Gush decks. I lost a lot to my own bad draws, always wondering why. Why??? I was playing all these other good cards like Regrowth and Jace and stuff.
- A year ago I bit the bullet and switched to 4 Preordain. I stopped losing a lot of those games.

I have tried other cantrips to supplement the 4 Preordain and they are just... disappointing.
- The Probes I'm currently running are often underwhelming, I'm in the process of testing changes.
- I dabbled in Thought Scour yesterday and that lasted 5 games before I bricked on it in a mulligan hand. Next.
- When I went to try Serum Visions or Sleight of Hand, it was ok but the drop off from Preordain was stunning.

So, yeah. This statement, I wholeheartedly disagree with. It's a fundamental schism with my basic experience with the strategy.

Preordain is not essential to the draw engine and that there are alternatives if Preordain were to be restricted.

[Chubby Rain]

Chubby: sarcasm aside

My apologies. It's my usual response to someone who says a particular card choice is a "glaring mistake" based on their own unquantified and unqualified testing without further explanation.

Thank you for providing more detail - seeing as the extent of your testing was 5 games with Thought Scour in a deck that was not designed to take advantage of the card, I do not believe that you have sufficient empirical data to make the assertion that Thought Scour is a "really bad card".

I agree with you when it comes to Preordain. The card is very good and key to the consistency current Gush-based Delver and Mentor decks enjoy (and Oath and other combo decks). If it were to be restricted, it would not kill the Cantrip-Gush-Dig draw engine but it would certainly hurt the consistency of it. That is what I mean when I say "Preordain is not essential to the draw engine". You can fill your engine with lower octane gasoline (worse cantrips) and still get from point A to point B.

[diopter]

Chubby: the first order effect of Thought Scour (pay 1 dig 1) was awful. I mean I've spent so much time trying to make powerful synergies in the past work (Regrowth/Gush; Skullclamp/YoungP; Cobra/anything) and ignoring the stark evidence that these cards were bad...

I mean I'm not sure how much time I've wasted on Git Probe in the last 6 months and in the next month or so it's probably going to go down to zero in my list because it just doesn't do enough to help me win. I probably should have just paid attention to the first (of many) times I bricked on it, oh, say, 5.9 months ago.

Anyways. You are totally right that I didn't try to take advantage of Thougut Scour's second order effects and yet in the end my experience tells me it's not going to matter.

[GrandpaBelcher]

After further testing, I came to the conclusion

1. Preordain is insane. I would never run less than 4.
2. 4 Dig and 1 Cruise is a bit much. 3 Dig or 2 Dig/1 Cruise is too little. I think the correct number is 3 Dig and 1 Cruise.

Opinions?

Also, if dig get's restricted, what do you think would take its place? Instead of 4 Digs that a lot of decks run, maybe 1 Dig, 1 Merchant Scroll, 1 Mystical Tutor, 1 random bomb? Idk.

I play 4 Dig because I want to be the first person to find and resolve Dig. I also want to find and resolve more digs per game, should it be necessary. This is also why I run Merchant Scroll (to get Force, Gush, or Dig, usually).

If Dig gets restricted, I think most blue decks will go back to the mishmash restricted draw package and play it and Treasure Cruise as one-ofs. Gush becomes less necessary to fuel Dig, though it will certainly still be very good.

[jamestosetti]

Has anyone tested Monastery Siege as part of a draw engine? I have been testing it in Gush Tendrils, and it wins the game almost every time it is in play. I'm not certain about Dig Through Time as more than a three of in a deck though. Having multiple copies before it can be casted creates a temporary disadvantage. I would also hate to see the card restricted. It adds so much fun to the format. Resolving the card multiple times only nets so many cards anyway. On top of that, the more it is cast, the less likely it will be that the grave can be used as a resource.

[DuKeLiO]

In my experience, I have never a problem having an acceptable graveyard after casting multiple DTTs. Second on I will pay more than two mana very often and I will exile at least the first one. Really, you only have to keep in your graveyard Lotus, Ancestral and Time Walk.
Also DTT is a superior card in Mentor decks and UBx decks, while TC is only better in Delver-decks.

[Prospector]

1. Preordain is insane. I would never run less than 4.
2. 4 Dig and 1 Cruise is a bit much. 3 Dig or 2 Dig/1 Cruise is too little. I think the correct number is 3 Dig and 1 Cruise.

Since I started playing vintage online I've played 4 preordain in pretty much every deck. I'm forced to play serum visions in modern and it a pale shadow of preordain.  Getting the card right away makes a huge difference, I'd prefer opt over serum visions if preordain was banned.  While testing grixis control I found running 4 dig and 1 cruise I'd occasionally be out of a yard to delve, so I play 3 Dig and 1 cruise alongside 3 gush. 

Also, if dig get's restricted, what do you think would take its place? Instead of 4 Digs that a lot of decks run, maybe 1 Dig, 1 Merchant Scroll, 1 Mystical Tutor, 1 random bomb? Idk.

Personally I'd up the gush count to four, and probably try merchant scroll over mystical - less of a misstep target. 

[Chubby Rain]

Anyways. You are totally right that I didn't try to take advantage of Thougut Scour's second order effects and yet in the end my experience tells me it's not going to matter.

3 Thought Scours in the top 8 of the NYSE and 0 Preordains. Seems like "second order effects" do matter in deck construction.

[diopter]

Chubby Rain: that is compelling evidence.

[Chubby Rain]

Chubby Rain: that is compelling evidence.

Compelling enough to admit that the card is not "horrible" and those playing it are not necessarily making a "glaring mistake" in deck construction? Compelling enough to admit that 5 games substituting the card into a deck not designed to make use of its "second order effects" is not compelling evidence?