Burning Long/Oath/Pitch Burning Tendrils

[JarofFortune]

In case I wasn't clear, I am referring to the Storm Deck popularized by Smmenen with Burning Wish, a rainbow manabase, Oath of Druids, and a disruption suite of either pitch countermagic or discard. What happened to this archetype? Not only was it seeing a good amount of play a year ago, the deck appears to have the tools to compete in this metagame. It has a very strong plan for beating Workshop decks. In game one, Oath of Druids is a free win against Gush creature decks and you can use your sideboard as an extension of your deck in this regard to keep them off their feet(For example, you can side out the oaths so that they have the same amount of dead cards postboard as pre board). In fact, the blue pillar is dominated by gush right now. This seems bad for a deck like tps, but in a deck like this you can throw your bombs at them fast enough that they can't refuel in time with gush, which makes their low density of relevant disruption will hurt them. Is there something I'm missing? Why has this deck fallen off the map?

[Smmenen]

I played it to a top 16 finish at the Waterbury last year, losing one of my matches to BUG, which is its worst matchup.  I think that Oath is pretty hated out right now, and the variance compared to Gush decks is less than ideal.

[Will]

I think this deck has a major problem in that it plans to Oath up Griselbrand and then draw cards with the hopes of comboing out. However, Fenton Oath's success (specifically at Champs this year) that Oathing up Griselbrand can and probably should be your combo. Instead of playing Storm cards you can just play Show and Tells and control cards and protect your Griselbrand which will inevitably win you the game.

This problem is compounded with the fact that storm is just not that great and hasn't been since Mental Misstep was printed. There are undoubtedly some exceptions to this, but Mental Misstep as well as a card like Flusterstorm do a terrific job at stopping a storm combo deck from going off on a consistent basis.

Adding an additional combo element which isn't particularly strong in the current environment to in my opinion the best combo in Vintage currently (Oath + Griselbrand) just weakens your Oath deck.

This is not to say that Burning Oath isn't extremely powerful and a fun deck to Goldfish, but in terms of viability I think it is pretty much just a worse version of Fenton Oath.

[jamestosetti]

Weren't there a couple of these lists in the top 32 of the last Vintage Champs? While Treasure Cruise was unrestricted there were a few players that used the deck on cockatrice with some regularity, and seemed to do quite well then. I had been wondering about this deck myself.

[John Cox]

Weren't there a couple of these lists in the top 32 of the last Vintage Champs? While Treasure Cruise was unrestricted there were a few players that used the deck on cockatrice with some regularity, and seemed to do quite well then. I had been wondering about this deck myself.

There were 3 lists in the top 32 (going on memory here as I can't find the top 32 on the net) that were listed as Burning Oath. One had no Oaths however. The 9th place list by merfolkOTPT (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=46879.0) was a Gush Tendrils list with Oaths in the side which might even out the playability of Oaths in Storm.

I personally think the Gushbond + Oath list seems ideal since you have less dead draws and can go control.

[gribdogs]

I usually play the pitch variation because counter spells rock. I'm a terrible player and you can still just goldfish wins with this archetype. 

[desolutionist]

It's unrewarding to win with; it doesn't feel like an accomplishment when you win games.  So people play decks like Gush, RW hatebears, or Shops in order to have more fun.

[The Atog Lord]

It's unrewarding to win with; it doesn't feel like an accomplishment when you win games.  So people play decks like Gush, RW hatebears, or Shops in order to have more fun.

This is the THIRD time I've had to use moderator text to tell you not to do this. First I used Blue text. Then I used Red text. Now I am giving you a FULL WARNING so that hopefully you will learn that this is not okay.

[Hrishi]

Oath has to deal with a lot of hate ever since it has become a top tier strategy, most notably Cage. Fenton Oath has a very powerful plan B and can turn into a vault/key control deck as well, or just go on the Show and Tell route. Ritual Oath on the other hand has to deal with Grafdigger's Cage shutting down both Oath and Yawgmoth's Will at once and Mental Misstep (now that almost everybody runs 4 of them) stopping Dark Ritual in it's tracks. Maybe if Oath ever became less popular...

[WhiteLotus]

Burning oath properly built has game against the current metagame of Gush Control, Oath and Shops.
I would tune the deck in a way to play defense grid as my anti control card and add Preordain to help improve the consistency.

Vs Gush control you get free wins game one on the back of oath and post board you force them to dillute their deck to answer oath meanwhile you can easily win the game by other paths. Defense Grid is  usually a really powerful card against those decks as opposed to duress, fow and the likes.

Vs regular oath you have the advantage because oath is your plan B meanwhile it is their plan A, you can match their orchards and Show and tell is a very strong gambit for them. Defense grid can also let you win through a Griselbrand.

Vs shops oath or Hurkyls either way all you need to do is resolve a 2 cmc spell in a deck with high mana count and ancient tombs post board. Shops being what they are and both decks being entirely proactive the die roll is probably the most determinant factor to the outcome of the match of course.

[John Cox]

Burning oath properly built has game against the current metagame of Gush Control, Oath and Shops.
I would tune the deck in a way to play defense grid as my anti control card and add Preordain to help improve the consistency.

Vs Gush control you get free wins game one on the back of oath and post board you force them to dillute their deck to answer oath meanwhile you can easily win the game by other paths. Defense Grid is  usually a really powerful card against those decks as opposed to duress, fow and the likes.

Vs regular oath you have the advantage because oath is your plan B meanwhile it is their plan A, you can match their orchards and Show and tell is a very strong gambit for them. Defense grid can also let you win through a Griselbrand.

Vs shops oath or Hurkyls either way all you need to do is resolve a 2 cmc spell in a deck with high mana count and ancient tombs post board. Shops being what they are and both decks being entirely proactive the die roll is probably the most determinant factor to the outcome of the match of course.

I really have to disagree on this,
VS gush control they have ways of keeping oath off the board and thwarting your tendrils plan. Game two Cage shuts down Yawgmoth's will and Oath. Leyline of Sanctity stops Oath, Show and Tell, and Tendrils from targeting them. U/R/g is better for you but if they overboard hats their mistake, not a general fault of the deck.
VS normal Oath they have 15 counter spells and a fast win.
VS shops they have a sideboard to beat Oath and a deck that's strong against storm.

[WhiteLotus]

Burning oath properly built has game against the current metagame of Gush Control, Oath and Shops.
I would tune the deck in a way to play defense grid as my anti control card and add Preordain to help improve the consistency.

Vs Gush control you get free wins game one on the back of oath and post board you force them to dillute their deck to answer oath meanwhile you can easily win the game by other paths. Defense Grid is  usually a really powerful card against those decks as opposed to duress, fow and the likes.

Vs regular oath you have the advantage because oath is your plan B meanwhile it is their plan A, you can match their orchards and Show and tell is a very strong gambit for them. Defense grid can also let you win through a Griselbrand.

Vs shops oath or Hurkyls either way all you need to do is resolve a 2 cmc spell in a deck with high mana count and ancient tombs post board. Shops being what they are and both decks being entirely proactive the die roll is probably the most determinant factor to the outcome of the match of course.

I really have to disagree on this,
VS gush control they have ways of keeping oath off the board and thwarting your tendrils plan. Game two Cage shuts down Yawgmoth's will and Oath. Leyline of Sanctity stops Oath, Show and Tell, and Tendrils from targeting them. U/R/g is better for you but if they overboard hats their mistake, not a general fault of the deck.
VS normal Oath they have 15 counter spells and a fast win.
VS shops they have a sideboard to beat Oath and a deck that's strong against storm.

Gush decks will have a very hard time hating on oath, being proactive and keeping you from going off through defense grid all at the same time.
Leyline sees almost no play and certainly not in Gush based decks sideboards. It also doesn't interact in any way with Show and tell: "Each player may put an artifact, creature, enchantment, or land card from his or her hand onto the battlefield."
Cage shuts down Will and oath sure, but you can still easily win through Draw7s, Mind's Desire, Necropotence, Yawgmoth's bargain, Griselbrand (hardcasted or through Wish>Show and tell) and you can otherwise deal with the cage(s) through Chain of vapor/hurkyl or Wish for Shattering spree.

How does normal oath have a fast win? their whole deck revolves upon something that they cannot rely on against you since Oath of druids and Show and tell are symmetric, Oath Mirrors are well known for their specific nature.
15 Counterspells ok, but no draw engine and if only FoW can reliably counter Defense grid...
Oath is usually one of the hardest blue matchups for fast storm combo decks, since the deck is pretty consistent at assembling it's combos early when not interacted with. But when you keep them off Griselbrand their deck is really not a good control deck at all.

Well this is true and Burning oath can't even rely on boarding in basics to build up a Wasteland-resilient mana base. However the nature of the deck makes it hard to hate out. Spheres won't prevent Griselbrand from killing you and Karakas, Metamorphs, duplicants and cages won't stop you from building up towards hurkyl's recall.

[John Cox]

Burning oath properly built has game against the current metagame of Gush Control, Oath and Shops.
I would tune the deck in a way to play defense grid as my anti control card and add Preordain to help improve the consistency.

Vs Gush control you get free wins game one on the back of oath and post board you force them to dillute their deck to answer oath meanwhile you can easily win the game by other paths. Defense Grid is  usually a really powerful card against those decks as opposed to duress, fow and the likes.

Vs regular oath you have the advantage because oath is your plan B meanwhile it is their plan A, you can match their orchards and Show and tell is a very strong gambit for them. Defense grid can also let you win through a Griselbrand.

Vs shops oath or Hurkyls either way all you need to do is resolve a 2 cmc spell in a deck with high mana count and ancient tombs post board. Shops being what they are and both decks being entirely proactive the die roll is probably the most determinant factor to the outcome of the match of course.

I really have to disagree on this,
VS gush control they have ways of keeping oath off the board and thwarting your tendrils plan. Game two Cage shuts down Yawgmoth's will and Oath. Leyline of Sanctity stops Oath, Show and Tell, and Tendrils from targeting them. U/R/g is better for you but if they overboard hats their mistake, not a general fault of the deck.
VS normal Oath they have 15 counter spells and a fast win.
VS shops they have a sideboard to beat Oath and a deck that's strong against storm.

Gush decks will have a very hard time hating on oath, being proactive and keeping you from going off through defense grid all at the same time.
Leyline sees almost no play and certainly not in Gush based decks sideboards. It also doesn't interact in any way with Show and tell: "Each player may put an artifact, creature, enchantment, or land card from his or her hand onto the battlefield."
Cage shuts down Will and oath sure, but you can still easily win through Draw7s, Mind's Desire, Necropotence, Yawgmoth's bargain, Griselbrand (hardcasted or through Wish>Show and tell) and you can otherwise deal with the cage(s) through Chain of vapor/hurkyl or Wish for Shattering spree.

How does normal oath have a fast win? their whole deck revolves upon something that they cannot rely on against you since Oath of druids and Show and tell are symmetric, Oath Mirrors are well known for their specific nature.
15 Counterspells ok, but no draw engine and if only FoW can reliably counter Defense grid...
Oath is usually one of the hardest blue matchups for fast storm combo decks, since the deck is pretty consistent at assembling it's combos early when not interacted with. But when you keep them off Griselbrand their deck is really not a good control deck at all.

Well this is true and Burning oath can't even rely on boarding in basics to build up a Wasteland-resilient mana base. However the nature of the deck makes it hard to hate out. Spheres won't prevent Griselbrand from killing you and Karakas, Metamorphs, duplicants and cages won't stop you from building up towards hurkyl's recall.

I apologize about Leyline of Sanctity, I was merging it with Containment Priest, which sees a lot of play in Gush Mentor. I think that we can agree on that.

How do you keep Control Oath off an oath your only disruption is either a minimal pitch package or 4-7 duress effects meant to push through a bomb? I can see playing out Orchards and trying to force an oath on the table, but if you can't force an Oath before they run out of counter magic, they can still win with planeswalker/ key+Vault/ Your lands.

For the workshop match, spheres and creature tech usually work in tandem making things more difficult. I think the best plan A for Burning Oath in that match would be to counter the Cage/sideboard card and win turn 0/1.

[WhiteLotus]

I apologize about Leyline of Sanctity, I was merging it with Containment Priest, which sees a lot of play in Gush Mentor. I think that we can agree on that.

How do you keep Control Oath off an oath your only disruption is either a minimal pitch package or 4-7 duress effects meant to push through a bomb? I can see playing out Orchards and trying to force an oath on the table, but if you can't force an Oath before they run out of counter magic, they can still win with planeswalker/ key+Vault/ Your lands.

For the workshop match, spheres and creature tech usually work in tandem making things more difficult. I think the best plan A for Burning Oath in that match would be to counter the Cage/sideboard card and win turn 0/1.

You seem to be ignoring the points I make which are:

1- Burning oath does not really care about Oath hate all that much since it has a lot of other game winning bombs. Thus forcing your opponent to dilute their deck to answer Oath is good for you.
2- Against other oath decks you keep them from activating oath through orchard parity and if they cast show and tell there is a good amount of chance that you end up with Bargain or Griselbrand in play.
3- Defense Grid is an absolute trump vs most current Countermagic configurations.

The best plan for burning oath (aside from going off turn 1 on the play) vs shops is to land oath early or to build up towards hurkyl's recall in their end step.

[John Cox]

We'll have to leave it there because I disagree on those points.

[mmcgeach]

It does seem like the format is weak to defense grid.  Would you mind posting your list w/grids & preordains and whatnot?

[WhiteLotus]

We'll have to leave it there because I disagree on those points.

On the contrary I think it would be more constructive if you present the logic and arguments behind your reasonning. 

Burning oath is very far from being a perfect deck but it's position in the metagame seems as strong as ever. The metagame hasn't actually changed all that much since the "treasure cruise era" and I was playing the deck back then and it was very strong vs the Oath, Shop, Delver tier 1 trinity despite the imperfections of the original decklist.

It does seem like the format is weak to defense grid.  Would you mind posting your list w/grids & preordains and whatnot?

I haven't really been playing Burning Oath, so I don't have an "optimal" list, but basically I just cut a few cards that are considered to be uncuttable since the deck is already flooded with those.
I cut: Time walk, chain of vapor, duresses, Necro, tinker+ jar and windfall to insert 4 Defense grid, 3 probe + 3 preordain and imperial seal. Also since the deck sports 4 maindeck defense grids, Mox opal is a lot more reliable and tolarian Academy is really insane.

[NosferatuStuff]

I play this style at our last vintage event and was also really on board with the defense grid tech (only 2 in SB which I wished were main with 2 more SB)  What really blew me away was playing against a gush deck packing SB remora's.  I don't think there was any chance for me to beat that craziness.  My delver match wasn't bad but my vs shops was not that great.  Having to cast Burning Oath was always a losing proposition with even 1 sphere out.  Ancient tomb in the board didn't seem to be enough.

[mmcgeach]

My delver match wasn't bad but my vs shops was not that great.  Having to cast Burning Oath was always a losing proposition with even 1 sphere out.  Ancient tomb in the board didn't seem to be enough.

There's a fantastic discussion w/Steve on the cost of beating shops with this deck, which you can read here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=44798.msg618777#msg618777

Basically, if you want to beat shops reliably, you probably need 10-11 sideboard cards.  This makes it hard to do very much else with your sideboard.  I dunno if much has changed in the year or two since we had that discussion - but maybe for the better: forgemaster shops has fewer lock pieces than espresso, so that's good.  But if people play Terra Nova shops w/null rod, then that's bad.  I think the value of Balance has definitely increased, tho. 

[mistervader]

I'm interested in "resurrecting" this deck, if only for the fact that I *really* love playing Storm more than any other deck. J

Having said that, I'm inclined to look towards the old Death Long lists for inspiration since some of those ran with a pair of Defense Grids in the maindeck. I feel that Having those would be great to keep hosers at bay in Game 1.

[Smmenen]

I played it in the VSL, and it was great fun, and, I felt, competitive.  In my match against Martell, I made a pretty significant error in the third game, by not Tinkering for Jar.  I probably win that particular game if I make the right play.  In my match against Rich, I have a great chance the first game if I win the die roll, and the second game was competitive, despite my terrible draws and his great draws.  

[Lilium]

I played it in the VSL, and it was great fun, and, I felt, competitive.  In my match against Martell, I made a pretty significant error in the third game, by not Tinkering for Jar.  I probably win that particular game if I make the right play.  In my match against Rich, I have a great chance the first game if I win the die roll, and the second game was competitive, despite my terrible draws and his great draws.  

Stephen, what are your thoughts on the list you played in VSL3 (the BLong list) in todays meta (post chalice/dig etc)? I hear the format has not settled yet, but please what do you think theoretically?

I bought your ebook on the topic of this particular deck (I buy all of your ebooks) and of course the sideboard has a lot of focus agains shops which now seem do have dropped in popularity. And since you wrote the book and did not play the deck at "vintage masters" I'm curious of your thoughts.

My recent experience online is that there is a lot of Mentor/Delver/BUG type fish decks, fewer MUD more Tezz, dredge is always around (many dredgers sport DDepths), so I was wondering if an Oath/Storm deck could be well positioned.

[Smmenen]

 I've played this deck quite a bit - in fact, I played it at the Vintage Prelim Event at Eternal Weekend, and I think it is a very strong contender.  I think it does better, however, in a MUD heavy field, but restricting Chalice is the best possible thing for this deck, of all the lock parts.  I'll PM you my list. 

[desolutionist]

Oath-Griselbrand is the main reason its strong against MUD.  And Oath is strong against Mentor as well. I think "Burning Oath" would obviously be the best deck in the format right now if it werent for Force of Will.

I don't think Force of Will beats Burning Oath, nor do I think Burning Oath should play Force of Will.  I just think the best deck should have 4 Force of Wills and the blue cards to support them.

I dont have any doubt that Burning Oath is better than Petition Tendrils, which we've been seeing as a top contender lately.  The reason is Oath of Druids-Griselbrand; its just a great fit for the deck.

[ObstinateFamiliar]

Double post

[ObstinateFamiliar]

Oath-Griselbrand is the main reason its strong against MUD.  And Oath is strong against Mentor as well. I think "Burning Oath" would obviously be the best deck in the format right now if it werent for Force of Will.

I don't think Force of Will beats Burning Oath, nor do I think Burning Oath should play Force of Will.  I just think the best deck should have 4 Force of Wills and the blue cards to support them.

I dont have any doubt that Burning Oath is better than Petition Tendrils, which we've been seeing as a top contender lately.  The reason is Oath of Druids-Griselbrand; its just a great fit for the deck.

Why do you think the best deck should have 4 Force of Wills?  

Seems to me that the most broken thing going on in most Vintage matches is Gush decks spamming cantrips and draw spells until they finally find a dude that spits out enough other dudes to attack for the win on turn 8.  I'm probably not using Force on a Preordain or Gush, and by the time they cast Mentor I'm probably so far down on cards that I'd lose the counter war over Mentor anyway...and they might run Cavern.  

Don't get me wrong, I've been starting every decklist with 4 Force of Will and all the nice blue restricted spells for years now...I guess I'm just wondering if maybe that's no longer a valid strategy.

It seems like the threats are so varied these days (Mentor, Vault+Key, Robots, etc.), maybe it would be better to just win before they matter?

For the record, here's my current "win before it matters" list (a work in progress):

Mana (28):
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
2 Mox Opal
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

3 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Badlands
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy

Bombs (9):
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Necropotence
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Mind's Desire
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall

Tutors (5):
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Dark Petition

Draw (10):
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Sensei's Divining Top

Protection (7):
3 Duress
2 Defense Grid
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Chain of Vapor

Win (1):
1 Tendrils of Agony

SB: 1 Defense Grid
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 2 Island
SB: 2 Rebuild
SB: 1 Swamp
SB: 3 Ingot Chewer
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Thoughtseize

[desolutionist]

I don't agree that the most broken things going on in Vintage matches is cantrips and Gushes. I think the Mentor/Delver/Gro strategy is pretty fair actually.  It's easy to see the difference between a hand with 3 lands, some counterspells, and some cantrips vs. a hand with artifact mana, 1 land, and some Draw 7s/Tinker/Necro. 

I think the meta could trend in a way that a Forceless deck would be good. But eventually the meta would catch up to that and then you would want Force of Wills.  Right now, Forceless decks seem fine, but best case scenario to play against all decks (Oath, Show and Tell, Yawg. will) you kind of want force of will. Not only to stop 1 card wins but also to protect your own.

[ObstinateFamiliar]

I don't agree that the most broken things going on in Vintage matches is cantrips and Gushes. I think the Mentor/Delver/Gro strategy is pretty fair actually.  It's easy to see the difference between a hand with 3 lands, some counterspells, and some cantrips vs. a hand with artifact mana, 1 land, and some Draw 7s/Tinker/Necro. 

I think the meta could trend in a way that a Forceless deck would be good. But eventually the meta would catch up to that and then you would want Force of Wills.  Right now, Forceless decks seem fine, but best case scenario to play against all decks (Oath, Show and Tell, Yawg. will) you kind of want force of will. Not only to stop 1 card wins but also to protect your own.

What I meant to imply was that most decks I see these days don't tend to be going "broken" in the traditional sense -- and that's the sense where a card CDA counterspell makes the most sense (IMO).  If you just want to protect your own win through, I think there are probably better options (Flusterstorm, Defense Grid, Duress, etc.).

Overall I think we agree -- it's a meta call.  I'm just saying I think the meta right now (at least my meta anyway) seems to be in such a position that Force of Will might not need be an automatic 4-of, especially in decks like ritual storm.

[bencabrelli]

I played this deck a lot last year and had a lot of fun doing so!

Recently however, I have been playing different blue decks, more control less combo etc.  There's something about the lure of the draw-7s though, and theyre calling to me!

I'd love to hear that this deck is still competitive and able to kick-it with all the Mentors and Thirsts etc that are now hanging around.  Has the deck changed in structure or play-style since the latest format shifts etc?