Gold border legalization article

[gribdogs]

Did anybody else see this?

http://legitmtg.com/competitive/legalizing-gold-bordered-cards-for-eternal-formats/

I can't see it ever happening, but ironically enough I just bought CE power and a time vault because they are so cheap. Like late 90s cheap. The BB is awesome but they still aren't real in a sense. It's a fun argument to read regardless.

[Islandswamp]

Did anybody else see this?

http://legitmtg.com/competitive/legalizing-gold-bordered-cards-for-eternal-formats/

I can't see it ever happening, but ironically enough I just bought CE power and a time vault because they are so cheap. Like late 90s cheap. The BB is awesome but they still aren't real in a sense. It's a fun argument to read regardless.

Does he know that the cards have square cut corners? I'm guessing that is one of the largest obstacles. Couldn't you cut to or otherwise feel for square corners in sleeves?

[Smmenen]

This is not a new idea.  I permitted CE & IE cards in lots of Vintage and Old School Magic tournaments I've organized in Ohio and California.  I require double sleeves for gold cards, though.  And I think triple sleeves should be preferred.

[Twiedel]

Agreed that the idea is not new ... and I don't think it'll do anything at all. I mean, this really *only* helps the supply of Power basically. Almost every other card that is needed out of ABU has been reprinted in some way or is just not desirable enough. And for anything else, like Duals/Forces etc. the increase in supply is just not significant.

Couldn't care less to be honest. I guess the only thing this would do is cause a price drop in bad condition UNL P9 pieces, that would then easily be replaced by IE/CE which looks much, much nicer. Alpha/Beta would for sure NOT loose it's appeal.

[gribdogs]

I've been playing my CEs at home in DragonShield sleeves for the last several months.  I can't tell any difference between them and a 'real' card while single sleeved.  However, I'm also not TRYING to find them (aka cheating).  I could see using double sleeves as the card stock is not actual Magic stock from what I can tell (very thin and bendy).  The square borders make no difference when I'm shuffling or playing in my experience, either.  I just like them because they are basically Beta reprints and put my homemade proxies to shame that I had been using.  I just can't imagine them ever being tournament legal for many, many reasons, but as I mentioned it's a fun argument to read nonetheless.   

[covetousrat]

There is no use posting 100 articles about legalization of these type of cards you have official reply from WOTC directly and ask for their opinions. False hope is a bad thing.

[MaximumCDawg]

Well, at a minimum, these kind of cards do not violate the Reserve List.  To that extent it is more likely these get made legal than we get new printings of reserve list cards.

Full disclosure: I've owned a Collector's Edition set since the 90s. 

[gribdogs]

I think the point of the writer's article was just to get discussion going.  That was also my intent here by reposting it.  I'm 99.999999999% sure WOTC will never legalize gold border, but it's fun to discuss, even briefly.  It beats another similarly pointless reserve list discussion anyways.

[Hrishi]

How much CE power was printed? Would the amount of power available actually increase by a relevant amount? It's also worth noting that if this ever became legal, the price of CE power would also sky-rocket.

[MaximumCDawg]

Okay, well, if we're just voicing our opinions on the issue, I vote in favor of it.  

EDIT: If only to spite those horrible, horrible people who mutilated their CE cards by clipping the corners.

How much CE power was printed? Would the amount of power available actually increase by a relevant amount? It's also worth noting that if this ever became legal, the price of CE power would also sky-rocket.

The article talks about the relative print sizes.  And, it also points out that there are other gold-bordered versions of cards out there, like the World Champion decks, with some sought-after staples.  But, yes, I agree that making them legal probably doesn't dent price much because supply is low.  It would, however, cause a temporary surge of supply as people with the gold cards rushed to sell them.  This would cause a one-time shift of ownership in favor of hard core Vintage/Legacy players and aggressive speculators.

[Smmenen]

15K. A huge increase in supply

Btw, I proposed this idea in 2009:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/17339_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Reviving_Vintage.html

[MaximumCDawg]

15K. A huge increase in supply

Btw, I proposed this idea in 2009:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/17339_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Reviving_Vintage.html

I Believe In Steve Menedian.

Now, just make it happen, o Dark Lord of the Sith.

[bactgudz]

How much CE power was printed? Would the amount of power available actually increase by a relevant amount? It's also worth noting that if this ever became legal, the price of CE power would also sky-rocket.

http://mtg.icequake.net/www.crystalkeep.com/magic/misc/rarity-info.php
10k CE 5k ICE, there are about 18,500 of each unlimited rare and 4,300 AB.  So about a 60% increase in the supply of power.

[nedleeds]

I also advocated this several times over the years. I own beta/alpha power and 2 sets of CE. I would love to be able to loan those out. I think its  a fantastic idea, we allow alpha and more importantly double faced cards now. There is no difference and we have rules for marked card pattern and for see through sleeve infractions with double face cards. Additionally the increased participation would more than make up for any small decrease in value from higher supply.

[jcb193]

Financially, I think it would hit played cards the most, but those still have value to alterers, purists, and white border fans.
Minty unlimited would also see a nice bump I think.
CE prices would skyrocket, but I still think they would trade at 50-60% of a beta, as there will always be some sort of stigma against CE cards, and I doubt anyone would opt for a CE over beta if the prices were close.

Doubling the supply of power nine might bring a lot more people to the format, hence more demand for power, which I think would bouy the prices of alpha and beta.
Players with minty power cards might trade down (cash out) for CE, and collectors would scoop up the nm ones.

If nothing else, people might be able to trade down, but still be viable, when those pesky life events occur that we've all sold parts of our collection for (car, ring, house, etc).

I think there would be an initial drop in beta prices, as the market evens out, but I don't think any long term damage. Unless of course, vintage has a fixed number of potential participants, and we simply doubled our supply of power cards.

On another note, I will say that unclipped CE cards can be noticeable if you don't freshen up your sleeves. Even if double sleeved, the corners can become apparent when sleeves get worn.

[Smmenen]

Legalizing CE/IE has a much bigger impact than power.  You get Time Vault, Twister, and dual lands a well as other biggies.

[Flash_Hulk]

Anything that increases access to Vintage staples for newer players, I'm in favour of.

[jcb193]

Legalizing CE/IE has a much bigger impact than power.  You get Time Vault, Twister, and dual lands a well as other biggies.

Is twister no longer considered power? I know it's been debated for years. But yeah, agreed. I was using the word "power" as shorthand for expensive cards.

[The Atog Lord]

Legalizing CE/IE has a much bigger impact than power.  You get Time Vault, Twister, and dual lands a well as other biggies.

Is twister no longer considered power? I know it's been debated for years. But yeah, agreed. I was using the word "power" as shorthand for expensive cards.

The power nine do notchange. Twister is still power.

[bactgudz]

I agree that this would impact legacy and maybe sanctioned vintage, but I'm pretty sure almost every regular vintage scene and edh group already allows these.

[JACO]

Legalizing CE/IE has a much bigger impact than power.  You get Time Vault, Twister, and dual lands a well as other biggies.

Is twister no longer considered power? I know it's been debated for years. But yeah, agreed. I was using the word "power" as shorthand for expensive cards.

The power nine do notchange. Twister is still power.

Are you sure, Rich?  I think Timetwister got voted off on last season's Survivor.

[gribdogs]

Anybody who grew up on MTG in the 90s considers TimeTwister as part of the P9, regardless (regardless?) of it's current level in today's metagame.   

[thecrav]

The power nine do notchange. Twister is still power.

This is literally the only reason I own a Timetwister.

Agreed with the above - I just want more people to be able to play!

[nedleeds]

Another thought on this ... we just got the newest list of Chinese fakes (pasted below). The quality in the last batch is better, much better than the first these are awful for the secondary market and are certainly being spurred on by the shortage of staples.

One other possibility is that the gold bordered cards be only legal in Legacy and Vintage, this is tough to enforce though. I don't have access to all the World Championship decks but I think the impact on Modern is fairly limited (Blood Moon is the only "expensive" modern staple I could dream up that's in gold border).

Finally on the above issue of the square corners, you can triple sleeve but an easier solution assuming you don't mind potentially devaluing the CE (which wouldn't be an issue if they were legal) is a corner snip (3mm or so), they run around $30.00. A CE card takes 2 seconds to snip.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0048IVWTI?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00

List A:

Modern Set
Scalding Tarn             
Misty Rainforest           
Verdant Catacombs         
Marsh Flats               
Arid Mesa                 
Flooded Strand             
Polluted Delta             
Wooded Foothills           
Bloodstained Mire         
Windswept Heath           
Tarmogoyf                 
Dark confident              MM
Cryptic Command     LORWYN
Linvala, Keeper of Silence
Karn Liberated             
Twilight Mire             
Horizon Canopy
Flooded Grove             
Cavern of Souls
Azusa, Lost but Seeking   
Sword of Light and Shadow 
Sword of Feast and Famine 
Sword of War and Peace     
Threads of Disloyalty     
Scapeshift                 
Thoughtseize             LORWYN
Ensnaring Bridge           
Arcbound Ravager           
Spellskite                 
Sunken Ruins               
Voice of Resurgence       
Blood Moon
Splinter Twin
Cascade Bluffs             
Primeval Titan             
Elspeth, Knight-Errant
bitterblossom             
Remand                     
Liliana of the veil
Abrupt Decay
Chalice of the Void
Daybreak coronet
Snapcaster Mage
Phyrexian Obliterator
Geist of Saint Traft
Kikj-Jiki, Mirror Breaker         
Steam Vents               
Sacred Foundry             
Temple Garden             
Overgrown Tomb             
Breeding Pool             
Blood crypt               
Godless Shrine             
Hallowed Fountain         
Watery Grave
Stomping Ground



List B:

Tundra                                   Revised
Underground Sea              Revised
Badlands                               Revised
Taiga                                       Revised
Savannah                              Revised
Scrubland                             Revised
Volcanic Island                   Revised
Bayou                                     Revised
Plateau                                  Revised
Tropical Island                    Revised
Batterskull
Tarmogoyf                       
Dark Confidant                         2004
Rishadan Port                   
Imperial recuritor
Ancient Tomb
Gaea's Cradle
Force of will
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Jace Beleren
Lion's Eye Diamond
Vendilion Clique
Wasteland
City of Traitors
Show and Tell                   
Liliana of the Veil             
Sneak Attack
Stifle
Mox Opal                     
Kozilek, Butcher of Truth     
Mox Diamond                   
Sword of Fire and Ice
Damnation
Flusterstorm
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Emrakul, the Arons Torn
Fluminator Mage               
Crucible of Worlds
Umezawa's Jettle
Grove of the Burnwillows
Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Sinkhole
Chrome Mox
Sensei's Diving Top
Glimpse of Nature
Iona,Shield of Emeria
Leyline of Sanctity
Stoneforge Mystic
Entomb
Goblin Guide
Aether Vial
Natural Order
Nobel Hierarch
Karakas
Grisebrand
Snapcaster Mage


List C:

Mox Jet                                  Beta
Mox Emerald                       Beta
Mox Pearl                             Beta
Mox Ruby                             Beta
Mox Sapphire                     Beta
Black Lotus                           Beta
Ancest Recall                      Beta
Time Walk                            Beta
Time Twist                           Beta
Time Vault               
Demonic Tutor
Library of Alexandria       
Moat   
Bazaar of Baghdad
Juzam Djinn
Nether Void
The Abyss
Intution
Mana Crypt
Mana Drain
Forcefield
Candelabra of Tawnos
Vampiric Tutor
Enlighted Tutor
Wasteland 
Imperial Seal
Mishras Workshop       
Maze of Ith
Scalding Tarn
Arid Mesa
Marsh Flats
Misty rainforest
Tolarian Academy
Force of will
The Tabernacle at Pendrell
Capture of Jingzhou
Tundra                                   Beta
Underground Sea              Beta
Badlands                               Beta
Taiga                                       Beta
Savannah                              Beta
Scrubland                             Beta
Volcanic Island                   Beta
Bayou                                     Beta
Plateau                                  Beta
Tropical Island                    Beta
Unhinged Mountain
Unhinged Swamp
Unhinged Forest
Unhinged Island
Unhinged Plains
Guru Mountain
Guru Swamp
Guru Forest
Guru Island
Guru Plains

[gribdogs]

I could never snip my corners, but that looks like a really nice tool nonetheless.

[MaximumCDawg]

Finally on the above issue of the square corners, you can triple sleeve but an easier solution assuming you don't mind potentially devaluing the CE (which wouldn't be an issue if they were legal) is a corner snip (3mm or so), they run around $30.00. A CE card takes 2 seconds to snip.

You are a heartless man.  Snipping a collector's product like this just so it's still illegal in organized play?

Jesus, just order some fun proxies with original art and call it day.

[covetousrat]

Anyone has those images of fakes beside originals for the cards above? A much improved quality? Sooner or later they will be exactly identical.

[rikter]

I think if the fakes get that good it might drive the market a bit on the played stuff. I remember reading something a while back, and through personal experience (I have some fakes as old as the game itself...biggest difference is the black text wasn't over printed and they lack the middle blue piece) that the fakes don't wear properly.

In a world where the market is getting filled with indistinguishable high end fakes, a card in lesser condition, but that you can authenticate through its imperfections, might increase in value.

[TheWhiteDragon]

I think if the fakes get that good it might drive the market a bit on the played stuff. I remember reading something a while back, and through personal experience (I have some fakes as old as the game itself...biggest difference is the black text wasn't over printed and they lack the middle blue piece) that the fakes don't wear properly.

In a world where the market is getting filled with indistinguishable high end fakes, a card in lesser condition, but that you can authenticate through its imperfections, might increase in value.

Nice to know my beat-to-crap power will soon be worth more than mint betas, hahaha.

[Norm4eva]

I quickly glanced at the tournament schedules for upcoming events here at TMD. This is entirely unscientific of me, so pardon me if I'm way off base -- but it would appear as though the large number of tournaments are upwards of 25 proxies, and many allow an entire deck of proxied cards.

The RL bugs the everloving stuffing out of me, it really does; I consider it a poor move to satisfy the demands of a few at the expense of many who would otherwise be encouraged to play and contribute to the game's oldest format. And I dislike proxies, just because the whole "I know this isn't a real Taiga" thing just kinda gnaws at me while I'm playing (especially since I *used to* actually have fucking Taigas and cannot remember what happened to them).

Nevertheless, with the large number of 25-75 card proxy tournaments out there -- just how big a deal is it that CE cards become legal? As long as any member of the tournament requires proxies, or as long as the event itself permits them, you won't have a sanctioned event anyway. Is it just the desire to have more legal Power and use less proxied cards? Is it actually still an issue of accessibility or membership at this point? It doesn't grow the format through accessibility; consider that as long as 100% proxy tournaments exist, "every card is a Time Walk" suddenly means something more than the original sentiment of the phrase.

I mean really, I'd just as soon have real cards instead of fake-ass proxies, but as with many things that apply to deckbuilding in Magic, the metagame determines the viability of the strategy. If the metagame is full of proxies, then what reason beyond simply owning more legal cards is there to wish for legalized CE?

I'm not entirely trying to troll, just trying to understand why this is something worth discussing when proxies are as rampant and accepted as they seem to be currently.