[ORG] Dark Petition

[bactgudz]

Hello restricted list, or I hope not this could put storm back on the map.

Added Pic.
-MM

[fsecco]

Hehehehe Tutor for Necropotence.

[gkraigher]

It's good, but it still costs 5 mana.  I doubt this will be restricted.  It is no where near the power level of demonic tutor. 

[Protoaddict]

It fits into storm or anything looking to set up a big yawgs will, but those decks have long been out of the spotlight. There will be times where it is demonic tutor number 2 however because mastery is not hard to set up, and it dodges spell snare so I do think it may see play. Likely more of a major player in legacy where demonic does not exist, but sadly it does not play will with Ad Nausem.

[xouman]

It reads "3BB: until end of turn you can play spells from your grave like blablabla"

Demonic is usually played as a set up, so petition is worse, but playable in storm decisión

[vaughnbros]

It reads "3BB: until end of turn you can play spells from your grave like blablabla"

If we are looking at it like that it's a split card actually.  You can grab necropotence as stated earlier, or tendrils for +1 mana.  This addresses some consistency issues with storm, but not much else.

[evouga]

I think Vintage has better options, including Burning Wish, for additional tutors in Storm decks (the only place this card can possibly see play). The problem is that this card does nothing until you are going off, and is terrible vs Shops, so is more or less just win-more.

[TheWhiteDragon]

For 1 more mana we get Yawgmoth's Bargain.  Once we are talking 5 mana investment, I think we need bargain level power to be playable in vintage.

[MaximumCDawg]

For 1 more mana we get Yawgmoth's Bargain.  Once we are talking 5 mana investment, I think we need bargain level power to be playable in vintage.

I dunno.  While it is true that Vintage is at a point of cutthroat efficency, this is a five mana win now mossy of the time.   It's storm's version of tezz the seeker.

So.. possible.

[WhiteLotus]

Hard to evaluate this card, is this just on par with Grim tutor or is it much closer to a card like Burning wish. Anyhow this seems just inferior to Gifts ungiven which will cost you one less mana, only one colored and at Instant speed, and you are probably tutoring for rituals and lotuses in your gifts pile anyway, so no upside from Petition.

Either way I dont think a tutor that requires you to have 5 mana is solving Storm's weaknesses (IE Misstep, Chalice and shops in general). Probably not even helping the consistency seeing as you can already play 4 Burning Wishes and/or 4 Gifts ungiven.

Just for a reminder on High casting cost spells that are cheaper when they resolve and vintage relevant, Timespiral plays itself for free and it sees almost no play at all, how is this any different?

Also this card seems just awful in any situation where you are not trying to go off, like setting up for future turns or trying to play around hate.

[bactgudz]

Just for a reminder on High casting cost spells that are cheaper when they resolve and vintage relevant, Timespiral plays itself for free and it sees almost no play at all, how is this any different?

Timespiral will rarely pay for itself in vintage unless you have academy in play.

[diopter]

Cool, WotC is printing real cards for storm combo.

The idea of something that could be converted into either Necro or Will is appealing.

[keys]

Will for 3BB is still Will, no?

[bactgudz]

Will for 3BB is still Will, no?

It's still will with a DT in the yard for you.

[diopter]

It's strange to talk of Storm combo's "problems". Storm combo's biggest problem is that for about 7 years it's been just a collection of cards that tries to randomly kill people in two turns. It struggles against the metagame because the stock builds don't really change their angle of attack from "draw good".

Only the Burning Oath builds have ever piqued my interest. That was quite the masterful subsumption of a focused yet commitment-light threat into a traditionally scattered and all-in strategy, even if it fell short in overall tournament performance. Meanwhile the Reid Duke top 8 (which was achieved with like 1 match vs Shops in the Swiss) probably set the archetype back years as it advertised freaking Gitaxian Probe as some sort of next level innovation.

This has real potential to yield an actually interesting tutor-focused build that's better than Grim Tutor or Burning Wish. If you think of how Storm combo most reliably converts a non-existent board into a kill, it's typically a couple run-goods into DT, Lotus and Will, or a Necro. This card is about as effective as Wish in making the Will scenario happen, while giving you an insane alternate path. How many people had to run Diminishing Returns in their SB just to have an alternate Wish target? How trashy! Now just tutor for the skull.

When your build stops having to run trash like Windfall, the rest of the deck might actually be able to support a tactical or even strategic shift. Maybe you can run low-commitment Night's Whispers more effectively. A move to maindeck Tasigurs as an alternate attack angle is now supportable when your storm enablers are good tutors into Wills or Draw12's instead of knock-on-wood Timetwisters. Hell, maybe you can be a monoblack board control build with a storm finish!

What I further like about this card is that the cost is high, so it is hopefully not going to power out fast kills. A move to 14-land TPS-style shells that combo out on turn 3 wouldn't irreparably damage Vintage too much.

[TheBrassMan]

I think people are really misjudging the mana cost on this. The majority of the time you play Demonic Tutor in TPS, it costs the same exact mana (1B + 2B). Rit, Rit, DT->Will is probably the most common way I've won in TPS builds, and you can't cast the DT unless you have 5 mana, making it completely identical to this card. As long as you're getting something you can cast with BBB, which will happen more often than it doesn't, it's as good as DT, and definitely better than Grim Tutor. I don't think this is an automatic 4-of, but I think comparisons to GT and Burning Wish are selling the card short.

I do think that it's probably not going to change the shops matchup, and I don't think improving any matchup except shops is really relevant for TPS. I'm of the belief that it's already strong in every other matchup, and the additional consistency provided by a tutor won't affect its position in the metagame in any appreciable way.

[failtofind]

Agree with brassy, will at least try this card, along with the timetwisters

[diopter]

Not sure that the mana cost is really misunderstood. The five up front means one cannot simply do a smallball Tinker post board, or fetch Lotus to power up an acceleration-poor hand.

What this is almost exactly like is Gifts, where one of the cards you get is Dark Ritual and the other one is exactly the card you want in hand.

That's kind of insane.

Thinking of this as +4 Dark Petition -4 [something] in existing Long/TPS shells is thinking really small IMO. My first thought is exploring the monoblack space and seeing what that yields. A light blue splash just for the Ancestral/Brainstorm/Ponder/Preordain package might be well warranted also.

[Protoaddict]

I don't think you want 4 of these in addition to the tutor suite you already have because there will come a point where you are just glutted with tutors, but I think its likely you will want at least 1-2

[MaximumCDawg]

I don't think you want 4 of these in addition to the tutor suite you already have because there will come a point where you are just glutted with tutors, but I think its likely you will want at least 1-2

Agreed.  This card is not better than Demonic Tutor, but you can make a case that it is conditionally better than the black topdeck tutors, and that means it should at least be tested.

[diopter]

The current suite of combo tutors is awful so that's not a benchmark worth considering

[arj]

I used to play a lot of combo back when pitch long was hot, and this card gets me excited again.

[Hrishi]

How many people had to run Diminishing Returns in their SB just to have an alternate Wish target? How trashy! Now just tutor for the skull.

The problem with this approach is that this costs 5, meaning tutoring for the skull is not a very early play. Your life total is typically under heavy attack by then. Not saying this is worse than tutoring for Diminishing Returns, but the skull is often not an answer when your life total is a valuable resource.

This card is interesting, but it does not address the problems storm decks have with spheres. That's the main problem combo decks need to address.

[serracollector]

Would this have room in Dark depths combo type decks? I like how this can also get and cast either half of vault key combo. If you got a piece in hand its good game. Like a black tezz.

[diopter]

Hrishi, I think you're not thinking big enough. Now that you have a reliable way of both Willing AND Necroing at insane rate, the rest of the deck might actually be able to do things like run a not-embarrassing mana base, use alternate attack and defence angles like Tasigur, maybe even go crazy with Lake of the Dead?

That's the potential, not just tweaking stock lists that could have been played 8 years ago.

[vaughnbros]

Hrishi, I think you're not thinking big enough. Now that you have a reliable way of both Willing AND Necroing at insane rate, the rest of the deck might actually be able to do things like run a not-embarrassing mana base, use alternate attack and defence angles like Tasigur, maybe even go crazy with Lake of the Dead?

That's the potential, not just tweaking stock lists that could have been played 8 years ago.

I guess the real question is how good is a 5 mana Necro or a 5 mana yawgmoth's will.  Shouldn't Bargain and Past in flames be seeing more play if these were both legitimate options?  This card probably obsoletes burning wish, but I don't think its a huge upgrade that really makes storm playable again.

[diopter]

Five mana is the going rate for Will. I think that's pretty amazing but it is a point up for debate.

The question in my mind is whether multiplexing that with five mana Necro (you rightly make the comparison to Bargain) will result in a playable strategy.

IMO it will. Maybe I should backpedal and state that the rate of the individual options is probably just a hair below "insane", but muxing the two buys a ton of slot efficiency elsewhere in your deck. The optionality and strength of the options means that you don't specifically have to architect a situation where you have an incredibly stocked graveyard or an overabundance of fast mana on top of your deck - you just adapt to what you have. I'm hoping that adds room to run real mana or lower octane engines to move the needle on some key matchups.

[Hrishi]

Hrishi, I think you're not thinking big enough. Now that you have a reliable way of both Willing AND Necroing at insane rate, the rest of the deck might actually be able to do things like run a not-embarrassing mana base, use alternate attack and defence angles like Tasigur, maybe even go crazy with Lake of the Dead?

That's the potential, not just tweaking stock lists that could have been played 8 years ago.

I didn't say the card was bad. Just keep in mind that this reliable way to both Necro and Will does presumably take a Ritual to start things off unless we're late into the game. I have tried a 14 land TPS shell before and even that kind of manabase makes you feel like a dog to shops.

This card does have potential. I am just playing devil's advocate and mentioning the problems that are still not addressed with the overall archetype. It is not a card you want against Workshops, imo. I do hope I am wrong, of course.

[Protoaddict]

The card in a lot of situations in a numbe of decks is another demonic tutor. I know that is an over simplification but people have played strictly worse demonic tutors before, and just look at vampric/imperial seal. I would think that most decks that would have ever considered playing infernal tutor, or grim tutor or whatever would at least find some value in this.

Not that it is relevant to vintage, but because this card generates mana it opens the door to abuse as well with cost reduction cards. Not thinking there is anything relevant now but perhaps in the future it can support some wacky combos.

[ben_berry]

Flipping this to Minds Desire to 100% win more.