[Free Podcast] So Many Insane Plays # 44: Rules Updates and NYSE Results

[CHA1N5]

After a bit of hiatus, we have a flurry of content beginning with this pre-Origins-review episode:

http://www.eternalcentral.com/so-many-insane-plays-podcast-episode-44-rules-updates-and-nyse-open-3-results/

Kevin Cron and Steve Menendian discuss new rules updates for their impact on Vintage and the results of the third annual NYSE Open.

Play
Podcast (somanyinsaneplays): Download (Duration: 1:50:50 — 70.8MB)

0:01:00: Eternal Weekend Update: Prize Paintings Announced
0:13:15: VSL Season Three
0:15:45: New Rules Updates
1:14:30: NYSE Open
Total runtime: 1:50:50

Show Notes

– Eternal Weekend 2015 Information
– Vintage Super League
– Rules Updates
– NYSE Open 3 Results
– Old School Tournament at EudoGames July 26 2015
– Old School Tournament at Eternal Weekend August 21 2015

Contact us at @ManyInsanePlays on Twitter or e-mail us at SoManyInsanePlaysPodcast@gmail.com.

[Islandswamp]

I'm so stoked to listen to this! Downloading now!

[Loukayza]

Good stuff. Listened to some on the train this morning and should finish up on the ride home tonight.

[brianpk80]

Nice.  It's been far too long.  Looking forward to listening. 

[Smmenen]

This episode was originally supposed to be our set review. But after four hours of recording on two separate nights we werent finished, so we split it up. Hope folks enjoy it anyway!

[ajfirecracker]

I think the lack of Dredge over the past year is a moral crisis rather than a metagame issue.

VSL players have turned to Dredge only with great reluctance.

Some of the comments VSL players have helped perpetuate (that also already existed and/or were aired elsewhere)
Dredge is no fun to play
Dredge is no fun to play against
Dredge ruins the game
Dredge is not "real Magic"
Dredge doesn't test "skill" in "Magic"

Edited to add: The biggest highest-profile view of Vintage dismissing or expressing dismay towards a deck is virtually certain to have some impact. However, I certainly don't blame the VSL players for playing the decks they enjoy and advocating for the game types they enjoy.

I think people are getting turned off Dredge, not pushed out of the metagame. I've had a lot of success playing it online consistently through the past year, but I've also been playing a very unusual build the whole time (with Force of Will and a Marit Lage sideboard).

One possible explanation is that the moralistic opposition to Dredge makes people play the stock safe list instead of branching out to try new things. Sullivan's winning list had maindeck Leyline, 1x Dakmor Salvage (usually I think it's more when you have Bloodghast, right?), only 2 Dread Return, Elesh Norn in the maindeck... If this were a blue deck that would be like running 4 Mana Drain and a Tinker package - a small number of card changes but with a huge impact on how the deck can play out and how it can fight opponents. As you noted in the show, it also adapted 4 Petrified Field to help fight land destruction from the aggro-control and mana denial decks. This is probably 10+ cards off the "stock" list. Someone who thinks of Dredge as a set object built around "breaking" the game is really unlikely to spend the time, passion, and energy to come up with this list.

As a result, moral condemnation of Dredge can lead to metagame share loss (losing players, losing matches due to less attempts to tweak/innovate, and losing more players/enthusiasm as a result). The only countervailing force that may help is a group of proselytizing true believers - fortunately something that already exists.

[MTGFan]

Nice podcast, guys. It sounds as if you have enough material with the Mulligan Rules Change to turn that into a podcast of its own!

[nedleeds]

I think the lack of Dredge over the past year is a moral crisis rather than a metagame issue.

This moral 'stance' affects more than just Dredge. There are a massive subset of Vintage enthusiasts who the same proclivity to stick their noses up at shops, at anything with creatures as well as dredge. It's part of why the archtype breakdown at a sanctioned Vintage even is the way it is. Some people just look at Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, and the arm long list of restricted and powerful blue cards and can't imagine why they'd want to play vintage without them. Which I think is part of what makes Vintage, and the players who love it awesome.

Even if we came to a consensus that a certain build of a Mishra's Workshop was the 'best' deck, it's not type II. People have almost emotional attachment to their powerful spells. There's no attachment in a format like type II. Vintage players will sometimes fight for their 'school' so to speak. Others are ambivalent, Steve and Kevin the hosts of this cast are almost mercenary in their willingness to play a different deck each championship and do well.

[ajfirecracker]

That's a good point (that other decks are maligned) but VSL has a unique position right now as the face of the format, especially to newer players.

[jamestosetti]

I think Vintage takes much more practice than players realize. Quite a few players play most formats and then branch into Vintage. If some of the time devoted to other formats were devoted to Vintage then I think there would be more positive opinions about the format's archetypes. I would challenge players to sacrifice some of the cards meant to be more competitive with blue decks, and figure out what combination of cards keep game one against Shops winnable, and what combination from the sideboard causes more consistency against them. If the seemingly weaker deck is then played against blue decks then play skill will tighten and more efficient and effective spells can be chosen.

I do understand most new semi-experienced Vintage player's sentiments concerning Dredge. However, I do not agree with them in the slightest. If one seeks to identify which role a deck is focusing on at the moment during matches then a better plan can be formulated against them. Certain combinations of cards are better against Dredge than others, and the deck's strategy can also change in such a way that the cards used to combat its strategy must also change. I did not think Dredge would be fun or interesting to play, but once I picked it back up after eight years I was pleasantly surprised. I find it to be one the most interesting decks to play at the moment.

I play Vintage enough that I know players who come up with new strategies to fight the current and changing meta. Effective strategies for Shops and strong blue are out there, but they are not played in significant numbers. This is likely because these players spend more time playing Vintage than other format's, and there have not been enough tournaments for these lists to be passed around yet. I can normally brew my own Vintage lists after significant though and practice, and I find the effort worthwhile because of the lines of play that I discover and can carry over to future decks.

I do think that Vintage players as a whole are improving and it is likely due to the attention that the VSL and even this podcast brings. I used to have trouble finding opponents online, but now there is no shortage of skilled players. I would like to add that I have tested the new mulligan rule in Vintage, and I fairly sure this is not something that will benefit this format. It basically turns it upside down. If that rule were to be implemented I think it may be worthwhile to pursue more restrictions, so that archetypes suited for this type of play can be implemented.

[Loukayza]

I think the lack of Dredge over the past year is a moral crisis rather than a metagame issue.

VSL players have turned to Dredge only with great reluctance.

Some of the comments VSL players have helped perpetuate (that also already existed and/or were aired elsewhere)
Dredge is no fun to play
Dredge is no fun to play against
Dredge ruins the game
Dredge is not "real Magic"
Dredge doesn't test "skill" in "Magic".....

Agree, gets a pretty bad rap. I was watching the coverage of NYSE on Twitch and at the end in the chat box, someone made a comment to the effect of "Now that he won a Lotus maybe he can build a real deck"...

Seems a bit much to insult people like that. Play what you like, and don't worry about anyone else, makes more sense to me...

[Smmenen]

I think the lack of Dredge over the past year is a moral crisis rather than a metagame issue.

VSL players have turned to Dredge only with great reluctance.

That's not even remotely true.  The VSL players that piloted dredge did so with great enthusiasm and disastrous results.  It was played 4 different times last season.  That's not reluctance.  No one plays a deck with reluctance in the VSL, to my knowledge. 

[ajfirecracker]

I don't interact with these guys much, so it's possible that on the other side of the camera they have a lot of esteem for every deck they play. From this side, this is what we see:

According to Randy's commentary, Tom Martell picked Dredge to make everyone "miserable" as he was and that it "wouldn't be Vintage without a Dredge deck running around making everyone miserable". (S1W4, Martell's match)

Efro asked Tom what's up with Dredge players "not liking fun" and Tom replied that post-board games are "actually very interesting" but game 1s "not so much" which isn't reluctance per se, but neither is it great enthusiasm. (S2W2, Williams' match)

I couldn't find any commentary from Dave Williams on the actual dredge deck anywhere in S2W1-S2W4 but he might have said something about it while commentating one of Efro's (S2W7-S2W9) or Tom's (S1W4-S1W6) matches.

In any case, you have 2/3 of the Dredge pilots expressing negative views of the deck (Efro joined Martell and Dave later on as a Dredge pilot) with even more negative views expressed by others. LSV in particular seems to hate the deck as anything but a budget prop to get into the format.

I want to reiterate that you have no obligation to present a particular archetype in a favorable light - but when you do happen to present an archetype unfavorably it will certainly have some impact on how many people try the deck out to begin with. It will impact how players test, how much energy they devote to tweaking the deck, and simply by force of numbers how quickly the deck is adapted to the metagame. A deck like Delver that sees a lot of play and enthusiasm is going to be the recipient of tremendous energy and brainpower, giving it something of a competitive edge as the metagame evolves. That same effect will happen within the VSL.

Of course, these are professional players who are trying hard to beat each other - for bragging rights if nothing else. But decks like Caw-Blade can go months in Standard without being discovered, only to reveal themselves as format-dominating monsters once widely adopted and tuned. The stakes there are incredibly higher - thousands of dollars and free entry to other tournaments worth thousands of dollars. The numbers are also incredibly greater - instead of a dozen passionate pro players you have hundreds or thousands. It's hardly remarkable to think that 10-12 guys might mis-tune a deck (or mis-align it to a turbulent metagame), especially with only 3 players actually piloting it and (arguably) fewer expressing enthusiasm and interest.

One facet of the same general argument is presented expertly here: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/print.php?Article=17250 by a certain familiar author. When there's less enthusiasm and sharing of expertise (which is a part of the same general problem) people don't learn the mechanics and strategy, and cannot find teachers to share those mechanics and that strategy.

[Varal]

In my testing the Dredge matchup wasn't as lopsided as my match against Sullivan. Wasteland can slow down the deck, Arcbound Ravager can exile Bridge from Below to let you win some game 1. They also help with the Grafdigger's Cage and Crucible of Worlds plan after sideboard. Sullivan's version of Dredge was really good against my deck because he could nullify all my angle of attacks. Leyline of the Void is really good against Arcbound Ravager, Ingot Chewer against Grafdigger's Cage and Petrified Field against Wasteland. None of those cards are new in Dredge but the combination of all those made his deck really good against mine. He chose to play the right build of Dredge, minus the City of Brass, for the metagame and he reaped the rewards.

It is true that the mulligan process with Dredge can be daunting with up to 21 shuffling in a match but it is not that much less than a Blue deck full of fetchlands, tutors and Ponder.

[fsecco]

There was a Dredge match on season 1 of VSL (I don't remember who was playing) that was really grinding. I remember Randy and the other commenter saying how fun that match was and how many decision trees it had. It really was one of the best matches that season. So I don't know if they are talking bad about Dredge all that much. They do it now as a joke since Dredge had terrible results there.

[Voodoo Specter]

Hey guys, My name is Chris H, i was the pilot of the UW Landstill list at the NYSEIII and i wanted to reply to Stephen and Kevin's comments on my sideboard choices in their podcast. Though i agree that Rest in Peace is a better card vs dredge in a vacuum, there are many factors that i considered when choosing not to run it in place of ravenous trap in my list. First off, i talked to many dredge players prior to the event and every one of them all said the same thing, they live in fear of rav trap. Unless the dredge player has a hand full of cabal therapy's or unmasks, they have no choice but to play into it. Every other dredge hate card they can play around interact with. Secondly, i was set on playing containment priest and i felt that there was a potential to be blown out if i lost the die roll. Having both pieces of dredge hate being two mana, means that i might not ever be able to cast them since killing on turn 2 is not uncommon for dredge. So I opted to having varied cc spells to prevent that. 3rd, Rest in Peace does somewhat hamper your ability to play your game, hitting all delve spells, snapcaster and crucible of worlds is definitely something to consider too. I generally side out most/all of my standstills vs dredge which makes spells like dig and cruise also unplayable. This leaves me with only ancestral and brainstorm as my only draw spells, which doesn't cut it. Lastly, i have done extensive testing with the current configuration and it has played well, and i even played a small event the night before and i played vs dredge twice and won all my match 2-0 (not that this definitive in any way). Now I lost my match in the top 8 for a few reasons, first, He had nut 7 card hands both games, keeping a bazaar/petrified field hand game 1 and a 2 bazaar hand game 2. After side-boarding i mulled to 6 without finding ANY dredge hate except a wasteland. it could be argued i should have mulled more aggressively but it was a strong 6 with a waste, if i drew any piece it probably would have been a good game. As it was the match ended in about 5 minutes as he had everything he needed to kill in 2-3 turns both games. I could definitely see an argument for maybe making 1 trap into a rest in peace to have better results during long games, but im still not sold that it actually better than what is in the list currently for the reasons above.

[CHA1N5]

I appreciate your response, Chris: I can understand the issues of speed with 2-mana spells in a deck with minimal accelerants, but what about the fact that Trap is temporary?  How are you winning, post-Trap, before they can rebuild?

[Voodoo Specter]

I appreciate your response, Chris: I can understand the issues of speed with 2-mana spells in a deck with minimal accelerants, but what about the fact that Trap is temporary?  How are you winning, post-Trap, before they can rebuild?

Hey man, in my experience, if the deck is firing on all cylinders, ie you have 1-2 peices of dredge hate and/or 1-2 waste effects (and the rest of your hand isnt dead) it is not too difficult to squeeze out a win. Between 5 waste effects, 3 plows, 3 priests, 2 mentor, 3 factories, 3 misstep, 4 FOWs, 1 balance, 1 echoing truth, 1 snap, 1-2 supreme verdicts and the 3 rav traps (after board) you can amass a win over time with incremental advantage like any deck. My plan is always keep their dudes off the table at all costs so i aggressively plow and FOW any incoming threat until i have the mana to cast a priest. once down their only option is to hard cast dudes or sudden shock it (but they generally dont side it in game 2). Before the event, the sideboard number fluctuated a lot and there were a few things i might like to try in future events. 1 tabernacle and 1 rest in peace come in and 1 rav trap and 1 verdict come out. im potentially open to changing 1 trap to a rest in peace but def not all of them. thanks for responding!

[msg67183]

I would like to point out that you guys confused JP Kohler (the one in the top 8 on Blue Moon/ The Answer) with Justin Kohler (the Bomberman player). They are not the same player.

[Smmenen]

Hey guys, My name is Chris H, i was the pilot of the UW Landstill list at the NYSEIII and i wanted to reply to Stephen and Kevin's comments on my sideboard choices in their podcast. Though i agree that Rest in Peace is a better card vs dredge in a vacuum, there are many factors that i considered when choosing not to run it in place of ravenous trap in my list. First off, i talked to many dredge players prior to the event and every one of them all said the same thing, they live in fear of rav trap.

That's odd, because I've played Rav Trap in lots of decks, and it's never been that great.  Ravenous Trap is better the faster your deck is.  In a Delver deck with Snapcaster Mages, 3 Rav Trap can be good enough.  But in a slow deck like Landstill, Rav Trap is little better than a speed bump, imo. 

Having both pieces of dredge hate being two mana, means that i might not ever be able to cast them since killing on turn 2 is not uncommon for dredge.

Containment Priest can definitely be too slow.  But Containment Priest does nothing about stuff they have already done.    Unlike Priest, RIP blows up their graveyard and unwinds most of the hard work they've accomplished. 

Rest in Peace is arguably the best anti-Dredge card ever printed.  It's Leyline of the Void and Tormod's Crypt in one.

[ajfirecracker]

Rest in Peace is arguably the best anti-Dredge card ever printed.  It's Leyline of the Void and Tormod's Crypt in one.

plus it's only two mana to re-cast if it gets bounced!

[CHA1N5]

I would like to point out that you guys confused JP Kohler (the one in the top 8 on Blue Moon/ The Answer) with Justin Kohler (the Bomberman player). They are not the same player.

I caught that upon editing: when Steve said Bomberman during the recording I didn't put the two together and realize that he was likely thinking of Justin!  My response was reflexive and I didn't mean to reinforce that JP is Justin

Sorry to both of you.

[youhavenogame]

Containment Priest can definitely be too slow.  But Containment Priest does nothing about stuff they have already done.    Unlike Priest, RIP blows up their graveyard and unwinds most of the hard work they've accomplished. 

Rest in Peace is arguably the best anti-Dredge card ever printed.  It's Leyline of the Void and Tormod's Crypt in one.

RIP can definitely be too slow.  But RIP does nothing about stuff they have already done. Unlike RIP, Priest is a lock piece and a win condition all in one and doesn't die to their generic 1 mana answers. If they already have a board you often wish for a flash creature to interact with them, taking out the Bridges. "Unwinding" all their hard work - how often do you see Dredge with a full grave but no board? If they already have a board I suspect both cards to be too late, like most hate.   

Containment Priest is arguably the best anti-Dredge card ever printed. Hard for them to handle, appears at surprising moments and goes all the way to take their life points. Oh, and it is also strong against Oath, so you are wasting less sideboard slots for situational and one-dimensional cards. 

[Flash_Hulk]

RIP & Priest need supplementary 0/1CC hate cards to form a hard lock;  if dredge is in a position where they have "already done something" relevant (tokens/Cabal), then a hate piece of any kind is generally irrelevant.

I would also argue LotV is by far the best anti-dredge card printed, by far.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Great podcast. I listened to it on my way home from the beach over a 2 hour drive haha. I totally agree that 3 priest 3 rav trap is not correct in landstill sideboard. Also rending volley on dredge sb hates on mentor and priest. Dredge did well because too much of the hate circulating was containment priest...

Furthermore on the landstill sideboard...rest in peace is often too slow for landstill to cast vs dredge. Something more like 4 cage 2 priest 1 RIP would be good. I've found 7 to be the correct number for landstill to beat dredge and 6 if not all 7 need to be permanent based hate... Landstill beats dredge with permanent based hate and uses a ton of counters to protect

[Smmenen]

"Unwinding" all their hard work

unwinds most of the hard work they've accomplished.  

I chose the word "most" carefully.  While people can disagree on that, it certainly does not mean 'all."  

Great podcast. I listened to it on my way home from the beach over a 2 hour drive haha. I totally agree that 3 priest 3 rav trap is not correct in landstill sideboard. Also rending volley on dredge sb hates on mentor and priest. Dredge did well because too much of the hate circulating was containment priest...

Furthermore on the landstill sideboard...rest in peace is often too slow for landstill to cast vs dredge. Something more like 4 cage 2 priest 1 RIP would be good. I've found 7 to be the correct number for landstill to beat dredge and 6 if not all 7 need to be permanent based hate... Landstill beats dredge with permanent based hate and uses a ton of counters to protect

Well, there you go...  landstill expert weighs in

I don't interact with these guys much, so it's possible that on the other side of the camera they have a lot of esteem for every deck they play. From this side, this is what we see:

According to Randy's commentary, Tom Martell picked Dredge to make everyone "miserable" as he was and that it "wouldn't be Vintage without a Dredge deck running around making everyone miserable". (S1W4, Martell's match)

Efro asked Tom what's up with Dredge players "not liking fun" and Tom replied that post-board games are "actually very interesting" but game 1s "not so much" which isn't reluctance per se, but neither is it great enthusiasm. (S2W2, Williams' match)

I couldn't find any commentary from Dave Williams on the actual dredge deck anywhere in S2W1-S2W4 but he might have said something about it while commentating one of Efro's (S2W7-S2W9) or Tom's (S1W4-S1W6) matches.

In any case, you have 2/3 of the Dredge pilots expressing negative views of the deck (Efro joined Martell and Dave later on as a Dredge pilot) with even more negative views expressed by others. LSV in particular seems to hate the deck as anything but a budget prop to get into the format.

I want to reiterate that you have no obligation to present a particular archetype in a favorable light - but when you do happen to present an archetype unfavorably it will certainly have some impact on how many people try the deck out to begin with. It will impact how players test, how much energy they devote to tweaking the deck, and simply by force of numbers how quickly the deck is adapted to the metagame. A deck like Delver that sees a lot of play and enthusiasm is going to be the recipient of tremendous energy and brainpower, giving it something of a competitive edge as the metagame evolves. That same effect will happen within the VSL.

Of course, these are professional players who are trying hard to beat each other - for bragging rights if nothing else. But decks like Caw-Blade can go months in Standard without being discovered, only to reveal themselves as format-dominating monsters once widely adopted and tuned. The stakes there are incredibly higher - thousands of dollars and free entry to other tournaments worth thousands of dollars. The numbers are also incredibly greater - instead of a dozen passionate pro players you have hundreds or thousands. It's hardly remarkable to think that 10-12 guys might mis-tune a deck (or mis-align it to a turbulent metagame), especially with only 3 players actually piloting it and (arguably) fewer expressing enthusiasm and interest.

One facet of the same general argument is presented expertly here: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/print.php?Article=17250 by a certain familiar author. When there's less enthusiasm and sharing of expertise (which is a part of the same general problem) people don't learn the mechanics and strategy, and cannot find teachers to share those mechanics and that strategy.

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you say except the word "reluctance."  There are definitely players on the VSL who disdain Dredge, but I don't think the players who selected it were reluctant to play it at the moment of selection.  That's where I disagree. 

[ajfirecracker]

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you say except the word "reluctance."  There are definitely players on the VSL who disdain Dredge, but I don't think the players who selected it were reluctant to play it at the moment of selection.  That's where I disagree.  

That's a reasonable claim and you would have a much better idea of their private thoughts than I might.

What do you think of running 1 Ravenous Trap purely as a psychological deterrent (to incentivize slower, more careful play)? How many pieces of hard hate would you need before mixing in Trap in a slow or moderate-speed deck?

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you say except the word "reluctance."  There are definitely players on the VSL who disdain Dredge, but I don't think the players who selected it were reluctant to play it at the moment of selection.  That's where I disagree.  

That's a reasonable claim and you would have a much better idea of their private thoughts than I might.

What do you think of running 1 Ravenous Trap purely as a psychological deterrent (to incentivize slower, more careful play)? How many pieces of hard hate would you need before mixing in Trap in a slow or moderate-speed deck?

I think 1 trap is fine beyond the first 6 permanent based hate pieces. For example I wouldn't run any less then 7 total dredge hate (true hate cards)...and if I thought about 6, I'd regret it, and if I considered less then 6, I'd be better off ignoring dredge all together and focus on everything else...

[jyuj]

I would like to point out that you guys confused JP Kohler (the one in the top 8 on Blue Moon/ The Answer) with Justin Kohler (the Bomberman player). They are not the same player.

You decide

FACT- They have never attended the same tournament.
FACT- They have never been seen in the same location as each other.
FACT- They both started on Workshop decks, with identical Metal Worker builds.
FACT- They both now "seem" to pilot Blue decks.
FACT- Kohler is a family name of German origin. The name was first found in Saxony. It means, "Charcoal                burner"
FACT- Only one of the "Kohlers" was noticed eating a "Charcoal" burger at a Top Deck Games event.
FACT- They are both devourers of planets.......... wait that might be Galactus, the devourer of planets  
FACT- Both require Air and Water
FACT- One works 48 hours without rest, drives 6 hours, and takes down events like a boss.
FACT- One puts together a deck one night before the NYSE and top 8's
FACT- They are both over 3'8'' tall
FACT- They are likely descendants of Homo Erectus
FACT- They are both rumored to have been born in the Scottish Highlands, before being transplanted into American families.

This leads me to believe that, not only are they the same person, but indeed, a Highlander!
                   There can only be ONE!!!!!!
 

[Will]

With regards to the new mulligan rule, I think that one key aspect which was not mentioned is how frequently a deck mulligans.

While I do agree that decks with more manipulation will be better suited to use the Scry, those decks typically mulligan less frequently than the more linear decks. The obvious example is Dredge which may not use the Scry as well as say Delver, but because it mulligans far more frequently will ultimately get the most benefit from this.

This is by no means comprehensive, but a month or so ago I analyzed the propensity and impact of mulligans while playing Workshop decks in testing and found that I mulliganned in 33 of the 100 games that I played in testing since the end of February. My opponents mulliganned in 19 of the games while playing a variety of archetypes (not Dredge) which provides some anecdotal evidence that Workshops mulligan more than Blue decks. I think that this data backs up most people's experience as well.