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Author Topic: Title: 5-0 (last round split) with Oath at Gencon Vintage for Prizes and Byes  (Read 9821 times)
Gandalf_The_White_1
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« on: August 03, 2015, 07:49:50 pm »

I’ve been out of the Magic loop for a number of years and was looking forward to playing Vintage at Gencon. I usually like to play Storm combo but there had been a great deal of MUD lately so it seemed like a bad idea. Because there had been a lot of MUD as well as creature decks like Delver and Mentor, I decided to play Oath. I started with Rich Shay’s Oath list ( http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=47680.0 ) and made a few changes, basically cutting 2x Flusterstorm, 1 Dig Through Time and 1 Misdirection for 1 Ponder and 1 Rebuild and 2 land (Volcanic and Forest). In the sb I ran more Dredge hate and a couple REBs. Here’s the list:

4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Preordain
2 Thoughtseize
1 Misdirection
1 Rebuild

4 Oath of Druids
3 Show and Tell
3 Griselbrand
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Memory’s Journey

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Forest
5 Mox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Pithing Needle
1 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Nature’s Claim
1 Sol Ring
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Abrupt Decay

I played in 5 tournaments over the course of three days so my memory is not as clear as I would like. I welcome any corrections or details from my opponents if you happen to read this.

I think there were 28 players or so. The tourney is five rounds of Swiss (no cut). 4-1 gets tickets as prizes and 5-0 gets tickets and byes at Vintage Champs.

Match 1: Dair with Snapcaster Control Deck[?]

G1: I don’t remember this game very well. I eventually Oathed up Griselbrand and won.

G2: I drew 3 Oaths within the first couple turns of the game. He Spell Pierces the first one, Fows the second one, and for the 3rd one he Snapcasters his Spell Pierce—I Fow the Pierce and my 3rd Oath resolves. On his turn he kills his Snapcaster with the 2B pay X life –X/-X sorcery, to prevent me from Oathing. But on my next turn I Demonic Tutor for Orchard. On his turn he casts Dig Through Time into Grafdigger’s Cage, but I’ve been holding Abrupt Decay from the start. I Decay his Cage and Oath into Grisel for the win.

Match 2: Shawn with Planeswalker Control[?]

G1: He plays first and lays down Academy, Ruby, and Sapphire and passes. On my turn I play land, Mana Crypt, Mox, Vault, Key (holding Vampiric Tutor which I could use for Rebuild to bounce Mana Crypt if necessary). He has no answer and scoops.

G2: If I recall correctly, I mulled to 5 and lost in short order.

G3: He mulls to 5. On his T1 he casts Lotus and Ancestrals himself. I Fow his Ancestral; he Fows my Fow and his Ancestral resolves. Then he casts Preordain, Preordain, plays Volanic Island, casts Ponder, and passes. It seems grim for me. Eventually he resolves Dig Through Time and gets Jace into play. For his first Jace activation he fateseals me and puts REB on the bottom. Luckily for me, I then topdeck Oath and resolve it. On his turn he Jacestorms but doesn’t find an answer. On my turn I oath up Griesel and activate it, then cast Yawg Will. He Fows it but I Misdirect his Fow and he scoops.

Match 3: Justin with Storm Combo

G1: I play first, T1 fetch Underground Sea and Thoughtseize him. He has Lotus Petal, Mystical Tutor, Preordain, Dark Ritual, and lands. I consider taking Preordain or Mystical, his only business spells, but I don’t have a quick follow-up threat. I take the Dark Ritual to try to bottleneck his fast mana. I am holding Oath. His Preordain is useful and I am slow and have little gas. He ends up casting Mystical-->Yawg Will-->Probe-->into a Yawg with Lotus and Dark Rit, so he easily casts Tendrils for the Win. Unfortunately for me I did not have Misstep.

G2: Unfortunately I don’t recall the details. I think that I shipped back a hand of 7 which had only mana, 2x Fow, and misstep, into an OK 6-er. I had a fairly early Oath and he didn’t do very much—perhaps no business. I win with Grisel.

G3: A very long game. We have a war of attrition. He probes me and then he gets early Defense Grid down but doesn’t have a quick follow-up. By the time he goes for it I have drawn into 2xFow and have 3 lands untapped. He Mysticals for Yawg Will and casts it; I tap 3 and Fow his Yawg Will, pitching the second Fow so I can hold on to my Show and Tell. After this he beats me down for 7 or so turns with 1 Spirit token. Eventually my hand is Fow, Time Walk, Misstep, and Show and Tell, at which point he casts the 5 mana sorcery which tutors a card and gives him BBB with Spell Mastery. I think for a little bit because I am unsure whether to Fow the tutor or to wait to counter the spell he gets. I eventually decide to err on the side of caution and Fow the tutor, pitching Walk. I draw Griselbrand and Show and Tell it into play (I actually could have hardcast it because I had a lot of lands, but I was low life so didn’t want to give him extra Spirit tokens). I think we are low on time at this point, but Grisel wins it.

M4: Sean with GWU aggro

G1: He plays first. On his T1 he plays a land and passes. My T1 I Thoughtseize him and take his Containment Priest, leaving him holding Green Sun’s Zenith, Plains, Tundra, STP. I get Oath into play on my T2 but think I might be screwed because of Green Sun’s for Containment Priest on his T3. He does not have another Priest in the deck, however, so he casts GSZ for Qasali Pridemage buts lacks the mana to activate. I trigger Oath on my turn and win with Griselbrand. [edit: as pointed out in a reply, I forgot GSZ could only fetch green creatures.]

G2: He starts beating me down with a Containment Priest. I get an Oath into play and at the end of his turn I Abrupt Decay his Priest, but he just flashes in another one. I die to beats.

G3: He gets Meddling Mage on Oath and starts beating me down with the Mage. I play Time Vault but have no other business. On his T4 he casts a 3 mana 2/2 elf creature which lets him draw cards when a creature he controls deals combat damage to me. I consider Fowing it because I had been thinking about skipping a turn to Time Vault so I could take a double turn later—which obviously would not be a good idea if he has that creature. I decide not to Fow. After the creature resolves he casts Stony Silence, which I Fow. On my turn I lucksack out and topdeck Voltaic Key; we are near time and he scoops.

M5: Paul Mastriano with MUD

Before the match, we agree to split the prizes regardless of the outcome. Unfortunately, I will not be able to attend Eternal Weekend, so I ask the judge if we can split the prizes such that Paul receives the byes, and I the tickets—but the judge says that while we can agree to split the tickets, the byes go to the winner.

G1: I play land and Mox Jet before I get buried under Spheres. I can’t do much and die to Lodestone Golem and Factory beats in short order. Very quick game.

G2: I think I had T1 Orchard, Mana Crypt, Oath. Oath into Griselbrand and win in short order. I believe I cast Nature’s Claim on his Trinisphere.

G3: He plays first and on his T1 plays Mishra’s Factory, Lotus, Lodestone, Chalice for 0. I think he had mulled to 6. After getting beaten down to 8 I am able to Nature’s Claim his Lodestone Golem. On my T4 I play Oath of Druids off 4 land through his Sphere and Thorn, giving him a second Spirit token. I fetched so I’m now at 7. On his turn he swings for 4 with Mishra’s and the two spirits, putting me to 3. I oath up Griselbrand and pass. He cannot attack into Grisel, so passes back. On my turn I swing, dropping him to 17 and raising me to 10. After attacking I mess up horribly by activating Grisel to draw. I basically had a massive brain fart and was thinking for some reason that I could pass again at 3 and be safe like I did last turn—I forgot that because I’d attacked I couldn’t block with Grisel, so he would be able to swing back for 4 and kill me. I immediately realize my massive punt after I resolve the Grisel draw. I am holding Vault+Key but cannot play them because he has Sphere and Thorn in play and I only have 6 mana on the board. Fortunately I drew Pithing Needle so I Pithing Needle on Mishra’s Factory, then pass. He swings with the 2 Spirits, dropping me to one. On my turn I can attack with Grisel again. I probably deserve to lose for punting, but the game is mine at this point. Paul asks me to scoop to him so that he can get the byes for Eternal Weekend. We have agreed to split the tickets anyway and the byes are useless to me, so I scoop.

Notes: The deck is surprisingly not as broken as one might expect, in the respect that Griselbrand in play doesn’t usually allow you to win instantly. A lot of games I had to win simply by beating down with Griselbrand. Usually you just try to set up a Time Walk after Oathing up Grisel, and ride her to victory.

Props to my opponents for being such good sports in the face of some ridiculous draws on my part. I certainly didn't play as well as I could, but that's to be expected given that I did no testing and haven't played Vintage in years. This tourney and Gencon were a blast.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2015, 10:45:57 pm by Gandalf_The_White_1 » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2015, 02:07:12 am »

Nice report. Thanks for sharing.

I'm myself looking for ways to move away from the "all-in on Griselbrand" Oath build because it relies on Oath so heavily (and it is hated out currently), you get really weird hands with multiple Show and Tells and you are instantly in a "let's hope there is Griselbrand on top of my library" scenario and also due to the fact that Griselbrand itself is relatively easily hated out by reworker, karakas, notion thief, jace and many other cards. People are very prepared for the most popular Oath version these days (3 Griselbrand - 3 Show and Tells - Vault/Key win after draw 7-14) that I think you can only reliably win by drawing the nuts, which, in the long run, is not what is going to happen, imho. Just my few cents.

I've tried Brian Kelly's approach and I like it a lot. I'm currently in the process of tweaking the deck to fit my current meta and possibly come up with new techs that would allow me to compete with Gush/Dig/Standstill draw engine, or Oath/Griselbrand popular hate cards. The only problem I have is that I can only test on mtgo, where executing the bomberman thing is actually nerly impossible, unless you have some massive masochistic clicking skills.

Good job anyways on the 5-0 streak.
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« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2015, 03:35:16 pm »

M5: Paul Mastriano with MUD

G3: He plays first and on his T1 plays Mishra’s Factory, Lotus, Lodestone, Chalice for 0.

It didn't seem like you were too hindered by it, but have you found Chalice to be a problem for the deck at all? If so, have you considered Stifle?
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« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2015, 04:07:00 pm »

It didn't seem like you were too hindered by it, but have you found Chalice to be a problem for the deck at all? If so, have you considered Stifle?
I wouldn't say that Chalice (at 0) is any more of a problem for this deck than it is for other blue-based Fow/Vault/Yawg decks in Vintage. If anything, it is less of a problem, because Oath only costs 2 mana and the deck runs 17 lands. Chalice at 2 can be annoying, but the S&T backup plan helps to mitigate it, and post-board you have 4x Claim and 2x Abrupt Decay (though I never saw Chalice for 2). I don't think the deck has room for as conditional a card as Stifle, which often sits in hand and requires extra mana open.
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« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2015, 04:33:57 pm »

It didn't seem like you were too hindered by it, but have you found Chalice to be a problem for the deck at all? If so, have you considered Stifle?
I wouldn't say that Chalice (at 0) is any more of a problem for this deck than it is for other blue-based Fow/Vault/Yawg decks in Vintage. If anything, it is less of a problem, because Oath only costs 2 mana and the deck runs 17 lands. Chalice at 2 can be annoying, but the S&T backup plan helps to mitigate it, and post-board you have 4x Claim and 2x Abrupt Decay (though I never saw Chalice for 2). I don't think the deck has room for as conditional a card as Stifle, which often sits in hand and requires extra mana open.

You're totally right, thanks for the reply! Once you lay it out like that, it seems pretty obvious that trying to Stifle a Chalice isn't what you want to be doing.
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« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2015, 10:28:00 am »

You're totally right, thanks for the reply! Once you lay it out like that, it seems pretty obvious that trying to Stifle a Chalice isn't what you want to be doing.

Stifling a Chalice is only good when you stop the counters from being added.
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« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2015, 11:15:13 am »

You're totally right, thanks for the reply! Once you lay it out like that, it seems pretty obvious that trying to Stifle a Chalice isn't what you want to be doing.

Stifling a Chalice is only good when you stop the counters from being added.
The counters are placed on chalice as a replacement effect not a trigger, so you can't stifle that.  If you cast something that chalice will counter, you can stifle the chalice trigger to prevent your spell from being countered.  If there is not exactly 1 counter on chalice (so that it would trigger for the stifle itself) this is productive.  If there is 1 counter on chalice this may still be productive if you have no other play since your opponent has to not miss their chalice trigger on your stifle.  Still, not worth running stifle for this.
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« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2015, 01:43:48 pm »

You're totally right, thanks for the reply! Once you lay it out like that, it seems pretty obvious that trying to Stifle a Chalice isn't what you want to be doing.

Stifling a Chalice is only good when you stop the counters from being added.
The counters are placed on chalice as a replacement effect not a trigger, so you can't stifle that.  If you cast something that chalice will counter, you can stifle the chalice trigger to prevent your spell from being countered.  If there is not exactly 1 counter on chalice (so that it would trigger for the stifle itself) this is productive.  If there is 1 counter on chalice this may still be productive if you have no other play since your opponent has to not miss their chalice trigger on your stifle.  Still, not worth running stifle for this.

Oh man, you're totally right. I think we can all agree that it would be a bad thing to do to play a Stifle to stop a Chalice from coming into play with counters on it.
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« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2015, 02:06:02 pm »

You're totally right, thanks for the reply! Once you lay it out like that, it seems pretty obvious that trying to Stifle a Chalice isn't what you want to be doing.

Stifling a Chalice is only good when you stop the counters from being added.
The counters are placed on chalice as a replacement effect not a trigger, so you can't stifle that.  If you cast something that chalice will counter, you can stifle the chalice trigger to prevent your spell from being countered.  If there is not exactly 1 counter on chalice (so that it would trigger for the stifle itself) this is productive.  If there is 1 counter on chalice this may still be productive if you have no other play since your opponent has to not miss their chalice trigger on your stifle.  Still, not worth running stifle for this.

Oh man, you're totally right. I think we can all agree that it would be a bad thing to do to play a Stifle to stop a Chalice from coming into play with counters on it.

I would go so far as to say that anyone who's been playing Eternal formats for any decent amount of time should be fully aware that this interaction does not work.
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« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2015, 02:28:39 pm »

So you are telling me this is not championship level rules knowledge?? Does this interaction ever pop up in othet formats like type 4? Maybe the rules are different in casual formats like that.
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« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2015, 04:03:48 pm »

I was completely unaware of that interraction. Are there any other scenarios where I should watch out for this type of play?
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« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2015, 04:12:12 pm »

I was completely unaware of that interraction. Are there any other scenarios where I should watch out for this type of play?

It comes up every now and again in Legacy...
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« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2015, 04:33:34 pm »

So you are telling me this is not championship level rules knowledge?? Does this interaction ever pop up in othet formats like type 4? Maybe the rules are different in casual formats like that.
Barring some kind of nonsense where you have R&D's Secret Lair in play and some poorly written card from the past that proves a contradiction I can't think of anything.
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« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2015, 04:47:51 pm »

And I'll stop letting things fly right over my head now.
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« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2015, 05:13:07 pm »

Though the second line of Chalice is a triggered ability that could be Stifled...assuming the Chalice is not set to one, of course.
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« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2015, 05:14:07 am »

Just to let you know, you can't Green Sun’s Zenith into Containment Priest.
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« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2015, 06:26:18 am »

You're totally right, thanks for the reply! Once you lay it out like that, it seems pretty obvious that trying to Stifle a Chalice isn't what you want to be doing.

Stifling a Chalice is only good when you stop the counters from being added.
The counters are placed on chalice as a replacement effect not a trigger, so you can't stifle that.  If you cast something that chalice will counter, you can stifle the chalice trigger to prevent your spell from being countered.  If there is not exactly 1 counter on chalice (so that it would trigger for the stifle itself) this is productive.  If there is 1 counter on chalice this may still be productive if you have no other play since your opponent has to not miss their chalice trigger on your stifle.  Still, not worth running stifle for this.

Oh man, you're totally right. I think we can all agree that it would be a bad thing to do to play a Stifle to stop a Chalice from coming into play with counters on it.

I would go so far as to say that anyone who's been playing Eternal formats for any decent amount of time should be fully aware that this interaction does not work.r


Why do I feel like I'm missing out on an inside joke?  Very Happy Anyway, congrats on the 5-0 sir! I played Oath briefly, and it's a hella fun and powerful deck.
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« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2015, 07:04:35 am »

I think the inside joke was on everyone in the vintage community over the years who paid money to enter a tournament  expecting to play an honest and fair game, then had to play a certain individual who basically took advantage of everyones good.nature , amassing countless wins and top 8's by being a friendly scumbag.
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« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2015, 07:05:27 am »

I think the inside joke was on everyone in the vintage community over the years who paid money to enter a tournament over the years expecting to play an honest and fair game, then had to play a certain individual who basically took advantage of everyones good.nature and amassing countless wins and top 8's by being a friendly scumbag.

You'll be happy to know there's plenty more out there.
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« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2015, 09:34:53 am »

Well, the author actually didn't know how Oath worked either, and while not being malicious asked a judge at Gencon to help him. The judge ruled that in some yet undefined period in his upkeep he could tap an Orchard give his creature less opponent (or opponent with less creatures) a Spirit and thus trigger his Oath.

The level of judging in this event left something to be desired, in addition it was casual REL, with no lists, which while logistically was certainly easier was a little strange given that it's feeding a competitive REL event.
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« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2015, 10:03:14 am »

The winner gets multiple byes at Vintage Championships and they didn't even require lists?  Props to the winner, but that definitely seems a little loose for such a nice prize.  Multiple byes at such a difficult tourney is a pretty huge deal, especially in the high variance Vintage format-
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« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2015, 04:21:16 pm »

It was really nice playing with you, Derek.  Congratulations on your great tournament run and excellent report.  I hope you can make it to Eternal weekend next year!
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« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2015, 02:38:59 pm »

Not without a servant set to green or similar...
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« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2015, 05:10:17 pm »

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« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2015, 06:31:22 pm »

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« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2015, 11:03:48 pm »

Well, the author actually didn't know how Oath worked either, and while not being malicious asked a judge at Gencon to help him. The judge ruled that in some yet undefined period in his upkeep he could tap an Orchard give his creature less opponent (or opponent with less creatures) a Spirit and thus trigger his Oath.
Indeed, I was not familiar with the current Oracle text of Oath. A different judge clarified it for me in a later match (that opp having more creatures is part of the targeting requirements). Both these matches were on a previous day.
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« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2015, 12:46:27 pm »

Well, the author actually didn't know how Oath worked either, and while not being malicious asked a judge at Gencon to help him. The judge ruled that in some yet undefined period in his upkeep he could tap an Orchard give his creature less opponent (or opponent with less creatures) a Spirit and thus trigger his Oath.
Indeed, I was not familiar with the current Oracle text of Oath. A different judge clarified it for me in a later match (that opp having more creatures is part of the targeting requirements). Both these matches were on a previous day.

Yep. My teammate called a judge and that's all you can do at this REL, no casual appeals. He just had to eat it. Against me you double checked that you could in fact decline to Oath, in this case I had a Priest and Oathing wouldn't be particularly good (barring you having Will or something in hand).

Also Green Sun's Zenith can only find Green people ... so even if I had a second Priest I would have entered a new realm of cheating savagery had I flopped him out. That being said going and getting a Pridemage that really had no text was a bad play, I don't know what my % of outs was but Pridemage was Forest Bear at that point. I couldn't stop you from Oathing (with my Thoughtseized Priest in the yard). I had Swords to Plowshares and having that as an actual card with text might have been a better idea despite the chance of it resolving being very low. My line of thinking should have been something like, if you have to Oath very deep into your library there's a non zero chance you'd mill all your Missteps / Forces and/or be at a point where you couldn't Griselderp without decking. It was close, you Oathed pretty far. Poor play on my part, even if it wouldn't have worked out.

I was also curious as to you having Rebuild and basic Forest in your main deck? There hasn't been an Oath of Druids build that has top 8'ed with that combination in the maindeck pretty much ever, and given your self described inexperience with vintage and the card Oath of Druids I wonder why you made that choice?

http://www.tcdecks.net/busqueda.php?token=Decks&tname=&nlow=0&nhigh=0&dlow=0&mlow=0&ylow=0&dhigh=0&mhigh=0&yhigh=0&player=&dname=&format=Vintage&aname=&main=rebuild%3B+oath+of+druids%3B+Forest&nomain=&side=&noside=&strict=on

I explicitly asked you if you were pre-boarding against me and you told me you weren't. So I had no choice to deal with it but given that I had defeated you the prior day with Triple Crucible Shops, you could see how I found it strange to see you moving a couple of cards to your main from your sideboard prior to our match. The fact that we didn't have deck lists was also frustrating as there was obviously no way to know.

On one hand I'm thankful for getting to play 3, 5 round vintage events. On the other hand feeding a competitive REL event with what amounted to FNM level enforcement is awkward. I was playing to win. Things like my opponents stumbling into my chalices, or wanting take backs becomes really tough to adjudicate under the casual REL. Casual is from what I understand and REL to allow players to continue learning, and to prevent 'feel bads'. When playing shops I general want my opponents to 'feel bad'  Wink



 
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arik124
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« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2015, 08:14:43 am »

Can you ask a Judge to look up a ruling?  Seems like the kind of thing that google is built for, no?
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I don't remember anyone ever scooping to a Null Rod...
The same cannot be said of Yawgmoth's Will.
Gandalf_The_White_1
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« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2015, 08:46:41 pm »

I was also curious as to you having Rebuild and basic Forest in your main deck? There hasn't been an Oath of Druids build that has top 8'ed with that combination in the maindeck pretty much ever, and given your self described inexperience with vintage and the card Oath of Druids I wonder why you made that choice?
I expected a lot of MUD. I saw an MTGO list on mtgt8 running Rebuild. The maindeck Forest was my own addition.

I explicitly asked you if you were pre-boarding against me and you told me you weren't. So I had no choice to deal with it but given that I had defeated you the prior day with Triple Crucible Shops, you could see how I found it strange to see you moving a couple of cards to your main from your sideboard prior to our match. The fact that we didn't have deck lists was also frustrating as there was obviously no way to know.
Was taking out Reb and Pyro from the previous match.

On one hand I'm thankful for getting to play 3, 5 round vintage events. On the other hand feeding a competitive REL event with what amounted to FNM level enforcement is awkward. I was playing to win. Things like my opponents stumbling into my chalices, or wanting take backs becomes really tough to adjudicate under the casual REL. Casual is from what I understand and REL to allow players to continue learning, and to prevent 'feel bads'. When playing shops I general want my opponents to 'feel bad'  Wink
Ya, I was expecting competitive REL too. I printed decklists ahead of time only to find out that they were unnecessary.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2015, 10:44:30 pm by Gandalf_The_White_1 » Logged

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We have rather cyclic discussion, and I fully believe that someone so inclined could create a rather accurate computer program which could do a fine job impersonating any of us.
nedleeds
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« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2015, 10:24:53 am »

Ha, I thought the opposite ... so much Oath in the first 2 events. I gave up on Shops ... Smile
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