Complex Eldrazi cards hard to evaluate

[Protoaddict]

Is anyone else having this issue? A lot of the new cards getting spoiled seem powerful on face value, but trying to evaluate them in comparison to other existing cards and strategies is really daunting because of how complex they are. I mean I think it's great for the game overall, but I am just having such a time trying to wrap my head around it all.

Cases and point:


Is there anything in the game close to this at all? It is an obviously powerful ability and a game ending body, but is it better than something like Grisslebrand in Oath? Could it see play in something like reanimator? Or is it just a crappy Iona?

Or how about this guy:


A blue red card that cannot be pitched for force that helps cast artifacts and has stats that we don't often see. Could he be good in a salvagers or trinket mage deck? How does the colorlessness factor in?

Or even:


3/4 worth of power toughness for 3 mana, but also still colorless. But also can provide a mana source on the following turns, and also can synergize with sacrifice effects that it can also produce to scry.

I'm not saying this stuff is bad, I actually quite like it all even if its likely not by and large vintage ready, but I find that I have never had this hard a time actually evaluating cards before because they all hit on so many angles.

[p3temangus]

The second two Eldrazi cards you posted are almost "sliver-ish" in their design, I wonder how many 3cmc "devoid" Eldrazi they plan on printing?

[Ten-Ten]

I felt the same way at first . This is obviously normal since devoid is new. So far only vintage playable is void winnower, at first glance.. We will see.

[xouman]

Etherium Sculptor seems overal better than Herald of kozilek. I'm still trying to figure some wat to abuse it paired with sdt and riddlesmith.

void winnower is interesting, but does not seem better than griselbrand, iona, emrakul...

sifter is interesting, but does not seem vintage playable by any means.


interesting cards, but imho do not improve vintage. can be played? well, lots of cards can be played, and there are thousands of valid finishers. One crazy guy (or was he a world champion?) even top-8ed with sen triplets, but does not means that sen triplets is a great vintage card

[Wagner]

I felt the same way at first . This is obviously normal since devoid is new. So far only vintage playable is void winnower, at first glance.. We will see.

I don't think Devoid is that relevant in Vintage. Besides Force of Will and Red Elemental Blast, are there that many cards where the color matters?

[Greg]

Void Winnower is absurdly fascinating.

For an Oath of Druids deck, this Eldrazi organically achieves something that few other "creature targets" do. Void Winnower can't be bounced by Karakas and naturally prevents itself from being hit by Phyrexian Metamorph, Duplicant, Sower of Temptation, and Phantasmal Image. I suppose that the elite untargetability of Progenitus is somewhat comparable, though Progenitus can still be cloned (but obviously not blocked). Void Winnower differs from Progenitus by having the benefit of affecting an opponent's strategy after it has hit the battlefield — as opposed to just being a monstrous beater. Void Winnower is also moderately easier to hard-cast.

Void Winnower prevents a few critical cards from being cast, such as Dread Return; Tendrils of Agony; Lodestone Golem; Jace, the Mind Sculptor; Hangarback Walker; Time Walk; Demonic Tutor; Time Vault; Yawgmoth's Bargain; Abrupt Decay; and even the lowly Stingscourger. Would it also shut down Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time?

Vintage playable, though? I'm not sure about that just yet, but it's definitely worth considering for a of the few reasons I listed above. What a unique design.

[inkmothnexus]

I felt the same way at first . This is obviously normal since devoid is new. So far only vintage playable is void winnower, at first glance.. We will see.

I don't think Devoid is that relevant in Vintage. Besides Force of Will and Red Elemental Blast, are there that many cards where the color matters?

sudden demise. mother of runes out of hatebears. sword of fire and ice out of frobots or maybe a stoneblade deck. sphinx of the steel wind. ichorid.

[CHA1N5]

I felt the same way at first . This is obviously normal since devoid is new. So far only vintage playable is void winnower, at first glance.. We will see.

I don't think Devoid is that relevant in Vintage. Besides Force of Will and Red Elemental Blast, are there that many cards where the color matters?

sudden demise. mother of runes out of hatebears. sword of fire and ice out of frobots or maybe a stoneblade deck. sphinx of the steel wind. ichorid.

Rending Volley, Misdirection, Snuff Out, Grindstone...

[Wagner]

Void Winnower is absurdly fascinating.

For an Oath of Druids deck, this Eldrazi organically achieves something that few other "creature targets" do. Void Winnower can't be bounced by Karakas and naturally prevents itself from being hit by Phyrexian Metamorph, Duplicant, Sower of Temptation, and Phantasmal Image. I suppose that the elite untargetability of Progenitus is somewhat comparable, though Progenitus can still be cloned (but obviously not blocked). Void Winnower differs from Progenitus by having the benefit of effecting an opponent's strategy after it has hit the battlefield — as opposed to just being a monstrous beater. Void Winnower is also moderately easier to hard-cast.

Also, it cannot be blocked by Orchard or Mentor tokens nor pretty much all hatebears, so it should give an ok clock. Still, I don't think that it makes the cut compared to Emrakul or Griselbrand.

[Aaron Patten]

Void Winnower seems really good With Chalice at 1.  Not much left to cast after that.  You can still cast Show and tell, force of will, and gush (Not to mention Tinker and Will).  I'm not that excited to play him in Oath but if there were ever a 12 post deck he'd be pretty neat in it.  Maybe Matt Mercer would like to Oath into this since Chalice is already a 4 of in his list

[mmcgeach]

Void Winnower seems really good With Chalice at 1.  Not much left to cast after that.  You can still cast Show and tell, force of will, and gush (Not to mention Tinker and Will).  I'm not that excited to play him in Oath but if there were ever a 12 post deck he'd be pretty neat in it.  Maybe Matt Mercer would like to Oath into this since Chalice is already a 4 of in his list

That's a fair point.  But not just oath.  Something with drains and chalices could use this as a finisher, although, those decks usually use consecrated sphinx and I'm not sure this is better.

Doesn't this shut off pretty much all combo decks?  Tendrils or empty the warrens, Salvagers & Lotus, Charbelcher, ... what am I missing?  I guess tezzeret/welder -> time vault still works.

[xouman]

Winnower gets hit by swords. Opponents who already have a jace in play can just bounce it. If oath player is at low life can "easily" die to opponent's creatures.

Since I play bomberman this creature is a problem (thought a griselbrand is even worse to face). But I'll still maindeck aether spellbomb, plus trinket to fetch for it if needed.

But it's true than this creature can be played with good success in oath. Most of the time iot will seal the game (but honestly most oath creatures do that)

[ben_berry]

It also doesn't stop chain of vapor or vampiric tutor.

[MaximumCDawg]

Devoid sure ain't no annihlator.  Is Iona, Shield of Emeria's effect better than  Mr Jellyfish here?

[StanleyAugust]

These cards are as complex as they are bad. I think that WoTC's creativity has gone too far. They are only inventing new mechanics with the purpose of inventing new mechanics - not because they bring anything meaningful to the game.

[xouman]

Keeping standard interesting and innovative is more important for them than adding meaningfulness to vintage or legacy. Just pray for a handful of playable cards for BFZ, at the moment i don't think i'd play any. Maybe kiora or this ionaldrazi

[NosferatuStuff]

Agree that these are very poor design.  Can't cast even number spells.  Did they steal that right out of a game of Munchkin?

[gkraigher]

I don't think these cards are complex to judge, I think they are bad.  This set looks worse than Theros, didn't know that was possible, but it is.  

[Wagner]

I don't think these cards are complex to judge, I think they are bad.  This set looks worse than Theros, didn't know that was possible, but it is.  

Agreed, the whole Devoid thing is not very interesting in any way and doesn't add much. Very few Protection from or hate cards are played across all formats, so your creature being colorless doesn't really do that much. You still have to pay colored mana for it and in 99% of the games the fact that it's colorless will be completely irrelevant.
Feels like Arcane to me. Not really relevant in its set, and useless outside.

[brianpk80]

I don't think these cards are complex to judge, I think they are bad.  This set looks worse than Theros, didn't know that was possible, but it is.  

+1

Actually, +1,000,000.

[JarofFortune]

I honestly feel that BFZ is a fine bar to set for Vintage-playable cards. They just printed another potentially playable tutor, as well as a 3-mana draw-3. Not every set needs to be Khans of Tarkir. In fact, if every set did change the format on the level that khans did, I'm sure many people would be furious. This set will send standard in an excellent direction while printing at least two cards that are very likely to be strong Vintage playables, and this set is no Theros.

[evouga]

The only card I think is remotely playable is the expensive Night's Whisper, if only because with off-color moxen and a rainbow mana base I think it could draw 3 cards more often than not in Vintage. Still, at Sorcery speed, it's a stretch.

[brianpk80]

I honestly feel that BFZ is a fine bar to set for Vintage-playable cards. They just printed another potentially playable tutor, as well as a 3-mana draw-3. Not every set needs to be Khans of Tarkir. In fact, if every set did change the format on the level that khans did, I'm sure many people would be furious. This set will send standard in an excellent direction while printing at least two cards that are very likely to be strong Vintage playables, and this set is no Theros.

It's okay to print cards that slow down standard but I prefer when the unplayable cards are still intriguing ideas that you have to test before dismissing or things that are totally novel, like Shared Fate.  Printing things like 3 Damage for 4RR (Theros) or that awful 5 mana enchantment that then lets you Scry for a stunning    is just feel-bad.  I'm also surprised that they would squander the Zendikar brand on a Homelands-esque set installment.  That seems like a terrible business decision. 

[diopter]

To original poster: Magic design in recent years has gotten a lot more interesting. As a long time Vintage player I've actually been really into Standard lately because of the depth of interaction.

To subsequent posters: we go through this exercise every time formats don't immediately revolutionize Vintage. No, WotC probably doesn't give a crap about Vintage, but Magic is such a good game that they still accidentally upturn this most majestic of formats just by printing really good and beautifully designed cards.

[JarofFortune]

It's okay to print cards that slow down standard but I prefer when the unplayable cards are still intriguing ideas that you have to test before dismissing or things that are totally novel, like Shared Fate.  Printing things like 3 Damage for 4RR (Theros) or that awful 5 mana enchantment that then lets you Scry for a stunning    is just feel-bad.  I'm also surprised that they would squander the Zendikar brand on a Homelands-esque set installment.  That seems like a terrible business decision.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. The aforementioned tutor and draw-3 alone seem very powerful and are enough to make me want to test/brew around them already. Meanwhile, there are many other cards including(but not limited to), Void Winnower, Brutal Expulsion, Greenwarden, and many of the utility lands, which fit the description of "probably bad but interesting enough to test". While this set is not Innistrad, there will likely be many vintage playables in this set. Additionally, the set will probably lead to a great limited and standard format, which is good for most players as well as wotc's bottom line. The way I see it, if the average set was like this one it would be satisfactory to most people(obviously not all).

I am with you on not wanting another Theros block. The worst thing about Theros was that they said it was going to be an enchantment block and instead it's a "stick as many auras as possible onto a creature" block. Myself and everyone I know who played magic at the time interpreted their advertising to mean that it would be a "fixed" Mirrodin block, but with a global enchantment theme. When they announced that scry would be a theme I got even more excited. Although I enjoyed the standard format it created, the block itself and the lack of eternal playables was such a letdown.

"To original poster: Magic design in recent years has gotten a lot more interesting. As a long time Vintage player I've actually been really into Standard lately because of the depth of interaction.

To subsequent posters: we go through this exercise every time formats don't immediately revolutionize Vintage. No, WotC probably doesn't give a crap about Vintage, but Magic is such a good game that they still accidentally upturn this most majestic of formats just by printing really good and beautifully designed cards"

I agree with most of this.

[brianpk80]

To be clear, I'm not personally disappointed by the set.  Theros was hyped up to be an iconic celebration of Magic's 20th anniversary with "[amazing]" new dual lands and an ambitious deity theme.  It also came after the slump of GTC and DGM, leading many of us to believe they were saving themselves with THS.  It was very disappointing when the whole thing turned out to be Swan Song, Seven Hundred 5-mana Holy Strengths, and a 6-mana Arc Lightning.  Khans/FRF and Dragons/Origins were both so excellent that I don't feel we're in a slump that desperately needs some new energy.  Battle for Zendikar is horrible IMO, possibly even worse than Theros, but I find it's impotence to be more comical than annoying.