Improving Bant Mentor

[serracollector]

I have always been a fan of Sylvan and just a question or suggestion but does Ivory Tower warrant a try in these decks as an alternate life gain and or card advantage engine with the ability to stay at five plus cards with Sylvan and Gush?

[Chubby Rain]

I have always been a fan of Sylvan and just a question or suggestion but does Ivory Tower warrant a try in these decks as an alternate life gain and or card advantage engine with the ability to stay at five plus cards with Sylvan and Gush?

Ivory Tower only serves 1 function and that is to gain life - which is poor outside of when you have Sylvan and are going to town on it. Seeker of the Way and Dromoka double as win conditions - Seeker pressures opposing Planeswalkers - there is additional functionality here that justifies their inclusion outside of the life gain. To be fair though, Brian Kelly was testing Student of Ojutai at one point.

[brianpk80]

Ivory Tower is too narrow, slow, and doesn't generate an obscenely broken amount of life.  The Student of Ojutai was being tested in a fun variant of this list that had Tinker and Alhammarret's Archive in it.  That was for a holiday event and wasn't designed for high level competitive play.  The Student was however better than I thought it would be, FWIW. 

[jcb193]

and brought home the Workshop.  

You're now 25% of the way there!!!

[Chubby Rain]

and brought home the Workshop.  

You're now 25% of the way there!!!

You should have seen him holding it. It was like it were a used tissue or a small pox blanket instead of a 700 dollar piece of cardboard.

[jcb193]

and brought home the Workshop.  

You're now 25% of the way there!!!

You should have seen him holding it. It was like it were a used tissue or a small pox blanket instead of a 700 dollar piece of cardboard.

I was hoping more like Anakin before he goes to the Dark Side

[Grand Inquisitor]

"Not Black"..."Not Red"

I vote for removing the negatives for something like MBR vs MBB (MentorBantX...).  I think this is a central design question and I'd like to hear more from Rich and Brian among others (Steve?)

There are very serious benefits to controlling the board with access to red.  BUT, in a metagame moving away from 4x Chewer, it may add value to consider how well green covers these sins while allowing 'slot savers' by running the black tutors.  Since there are a hefty number of flex slots and since the black tutors cut both ways by allowing you to fetch either a game ending bomb or Priest/Thalia/RestinPeace, can we revisit the control/combo divide?  Doesn't black enable rather hard-control silver bullet strategies while also letting you close down a snap>time walk finish?  It seems like a natural evolution of the archetype.

[The Atog Lord]

That's a great question, GI. At first, I refused to play the fourth color. Red seemed unnecessary. After all, Red was just there for Dack and Grudge; and other colors can handle artifacts reasonably well. Nature's Claim and Trygon Predator seemed sufficient.

Then I tested more against the Workshop decks. It turns out that Ancient Grudge actually is leagues better than the other options. In this environment, with the way Workshop decks are configured, getting that two-for-one at your convenience more than justifies the splash. Besides, having the Dack lets us more comfortably run the Gushes without choking on the cards quite as often.

Even without having any basic lands left, adding red significantly improves the Workshop match.

So, given that, I like Red as the forth color. If we cut the Red for Black, our Workshop matchup would get much worse. While Demonic Tutor is a great card, it isn't nearly as good against Workshops as an Ancient Grudge. And Black contributes nothing over Bant in the Workshop matchup except a worse manabase. For these reasons, I don't think that Black would be a great addition as long as Workshops are so popular. However, I could certainly be wrong on this. And I do see the value of discard spells as the metagame moves toward more Storm.

[Chubby Rain]

"Not Black"..."Not Red"

I vote for removing the negatives for something like MBR vs MBB (MentorBantX...).  I think this is a central design question and I'd like to hear more from Rich and Brian among others (Steve?)

There are very serious benefits to controlling the board with access to red.  BUT, in a metagame moving away from 4x Chewer, it may add value to consider how well green covers these sins while allowing 'slot savers' by running the black tutors.  Since there are a hefty number of flex slots and since the black tutors cut both ways by allowing you to fetch either a game ending bomb or Priest/Thalia/RestinPeace, can we revisit the control/combo divide?  Doesn't black enable rather hard-control silver bullet strategies while also letting you close down a snap>time walk finish?  It seems like a natural evolution of the archetype.

I think you are underestimating how critical Ancient Grudge and Dack are against both Shops and decks like Tezz or Belcher and overestimating how helpful the tutors would be given the inherent tempo loss to playing them.

Edit: Well said, Rich.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I think you are underestimating how critical Ancient Grudge and Dack are against both Shops and decks like Tezz or Belcher and overestimating how helpful the tutors would be given the inherent tempo loss to playing them.

I think the tempo issue is real and that tutoring is a fringe effort that resigns only to the most important plays.  I look to it ony as a way to better manage the 75 in a deck that already has a low curve.

Still, I think your characterization of red's impact is foolish.  Grudge and Dack are poor versus these two decks (Tez and Belcher).  Further, traditional MUD fears spot removal much less than it would months ago.  Grudge is a fine generalist card right now, but if you're going to play control, you need to really pick and choose.  Maybe red is the best support, but it doesn't seem to bolster the growing legions of storm and big blue.  If it does, it's REB and not the other cards mentioned.  Maybe MBR really is too reactive for the current meta.  If Mentor needs red, maybe it is too slow for now.

I'm imagining something that turns faster on a given mid-game turn and can use hurkyls/rebuild to win artifact matchups.

[brianpk80]

GI, it sounds like you'd prefer to play something more like an orthodox Grixis Control list.  What I hear in your posts is "Hurkyl's the Shop player, then Demonic Tutor for Tinker."  It's possible that this strategy is still viable and its lack of prominence is simply a function of player subjectivity.  That being said, it's a very different beast from Sylvan Gush control.  As for nomenclature, neither Rich nor I can declare that anyone running a list in this genre be name it X, Y, or Z.  Some may consider that a good thing, as with me at the helm, it could end up being "Ojutai's Family Portrait,  2016."   

[Grand Inquisitor]

GI, it sounds like you'd prefer to play something more like an orthodox Grixis Control list

Far from it.  In fact I even put the 'Bant' firmly in the nomenclature above the family photo.  I think the core here is fine.  And I like a lot of what red has to offer, but I'm sceptical if it may have outlived its value vs workshops.  Not really because of what this deck does, but more because of how many shops lists have evolved.  Obviously this is a ying-yang in terms of how you migh reposition this deck's win condition.

Maybe red is worth it just for what Dack offers across matchups.  But if Green & others can cover better for the shop matchup and Storm and Big Blue are larger metagame players, perhaps there are better options and maybe those are facilitated with silver bullets found with black tutors (especially now that DTT is a 1x).  But just spitballing here.

[Chubby Rain]

Still, I think your characterization of red's impact is foolish.  Grudge and Dack are poor versus these two decks (Tez and Belcher).  Further, traditional MUD fears spot removal much less than it would months ago.  Grudge is a fine generalist card right now, but if you're going to play control, you need to really pick and choose.

How does Tezzeret power out it's namesake card when you destroy/steal their Moxen and Seats? It's not by casting 5 mana Divinations. How does Belcher recover if they don't kill you turn 1 against multiple 2-for-1's in a card-drawing machine? How does either deck reliably assemble Vault + Key when it now takes two counterspells to protect it's combo, again against a deck that mostly draws cards? Even if you are "spitballing," I don't think I would call what I said "foolish" when it does not seem like you have any experience with the deck in any of its forms. Did you even watch any of Rich Shay's VSL matches? Ancient Grudge was instrumental in winning his Shop match. Come on, man...

[Grand Inquisitor]

Sorry, you're right about Grudge in the Tez matchup.  But it's cold comfort to an activated Belcher and Dack is much too slow to interact in either matchup.  It's not a dead card, but it's win-more after your real answers have done the work.

[vaughnbros]

Sorry, you're right about Grudge in the Tez matchup.  But it's cold comfort to an activated Belcher and Dack is much too slow to interact in either matchup.  It's not a dead card, but it's win-more after your real answers have done the work.

Dack is 3 mana easily castable turn 2...

[brianpk80]

Sorry, you're right about Grudge in the Tez matchup.  But it's cold comfort to an activated Belcher and Dack is much too slow to interact in either matchup.  It's not a dead card, but it's win-more after your real answers have done the work.

Most of the time against Belcher, you win by stopping their major play and then annihilating their mana base.  Matt was correct; Ancient Grudge is an all star in that match-up.  And nothing replaces it against Shops.  It is bar-none the best hate there. 

Tutors are better suited to things that proactively advance your game plan.  It's far less impressive to tutor for Flusterstorm or other situational answers than it is to Tutor up Yawgmoth's Will or Tinker. 

[Grand Inquisitor]

It's hard arguing against the Vintage champ, but I think you guys are really over-selling artifact removal vs. Belcher.  If you're on the draw against them, Dack is almost always irrelevant.  Given that the current versions are so counter heavy or have Defense Grid, the presumption that the removal becomes valuable after "stopping their major play" means you likely require 2 other key spells on your end before getting to Dack/Grudge.  Something like EE can potentially disrupt their manabase and can be played effectively for 2 mana; that's realistic.  However, grudge will cost 3 mana across two colors to significantly disrupt their mana.

I'm not saying these cards are completely dead.  And I do think Dack's filtering is huge vs combo, so the versatility is valuable.  But the idea that these cards are 'all stars' in this matchup is perplexing.  These lines of play seem wishful thinking compared to my experience.

Tutors are better suited to things that proactively advance your game plan

I'd say as a general point this is true.  And I'm aware that the tempo loss is more important than ever before.  But, this build is mostly a control deck and much more than most other versions of Mentor.  The way the metagame is shaping up, this will intensify as Dredge, TPS and Tezzerator become more common than Merfolk, Delver and the mirror.  It just feels like the 75 is stretched pretty thin without the multiplicative power of black tutors.  And as per your point, Brian, nothing says you can't fetch Mentor with these when you're pressing advantage.

I'm not hard on this 2nd point, but at least right now I can see the value when going into a big event with a still settling metgame.

[brianpk80]

Against Belcher, Ancient Grudge is the type of card that allows you to win games that you did not lose to a Turn 1 nut draw.  Afterwards, you need to clean up the mess because "trying to Force of Will everything" is not a sustainable strategy.  The reason artifact removal works is because it allows you to capitalize on the supreme card disadvantage of its burst mana and interdependent mana base.  I prefer my Belcher opponents to be incapacitated rather than letting them expand and regroup without interference after an initial assault.  It bears noting that destroying a Belcher that was tossed onto the battlefield without mana to activate is pretty good as well.  

Before Champs, I tested this match up extensively.  The Gush list was better than the Oath of Druids list for that specific match up.  The Gush list, from which current Sylvan builds spring, was a nightmare match for my opponent precisely because of the Grudges that prevented him from doing anything meaningful.  Naturally, playing a deck without countermagic and draw that crutched too heavily on removal is not a good strategy.  But the Gush decks with Ancient Grudge provide a context where Grudge itself shines so brightly; its power is not being overstated or exaggerated at all.  Stephen's match against Randy illustrated this very nicely last night.  

Your views are appreciated but the conclusions many of us have reached on Ancient Grudge have a strong experiential and practical basis.  It was not hot air or random theory crafting.  

[serracollector]

On the flip side playing tutors allows you to find that one of null rod or stony silence faster which completely stops belcher. Im not disagreeing with you brian. Just throwing it out there that when running singletons to stop something that tutors obv have some merit. Ofc you could just stay three colors and play Seeds of Innocence

[brianpk80]

On the flip side playing tutors allows you to find that one of null rod or stony silence faster which completely stops belcher. Im not disagreeing with you brian. Just throwing it out there that when running singletons to stop something that tutors obv have some merit. Ofc you could just stay three colors and play Seeds of Innocence

That's a reasonable suggestion for something with a singleton Stony Silence or Rest in Peace, but for this list there are 3 Grudges post-sb and the mana base is structured in a way to comfortably support four colors (really just a blue cake with three different shades of icing), but not five.  It's a draw-lots-of-cards deck that crafts solutions to problems as they come along.  There's nothing a Dragonlord and his tools can't handle.