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Author Topic: [OGW] Jori En, Ruin Diver  (Read 7118 times)
serracollector
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« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2015, 05:40:02 pm »

Two Silvergill after a Jori seems more cute than good. I simply see her as something you want in a deck where you are always trying to cast two spells everyturn. There are obv enough free spells and one mana cantrips to do this. She helps fuel her own chain. Might be time for me to break out my Opts alongside the preordains.
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xouman
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« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2015, 06:21:20 pm »

That doesn't seem all the spectacular to me. Here's a list of cards I can play on or before turn 2 that will draw 1 or more cards by the time t2 is over without using 55% of my cards to that point to achieve this goal (in no particular order of viability):
ancestral recall
brainstorm
ponder
preordain
mystic remora
library of Alexandria
gush
dark confidant
jace, vryns prodigy
gitaxian probe
Repeal

Gush requires 2 islands. Other than that every single card above has an easier casting cost to get into play.

All of those cards make the first draw cheaper, no doubt. But we are talking about well established vintage staples (so a non-superior card could still be playable), and most of them do not allow further drawing. Remora potentially does, at the cost of a cumulative upkeep; library, at the cost of a landrop and limited ability to cast spells; and confidant, which means losing life, shows the card, is worse in the combat phase and cannot potentially draw 2 or draw in the same turn it's played. Jori is not strictly inferior to any (outside ancestral maybe, but most cards are inferior to ancestral). Maybe the secret is to play her and hope she can survive enough to generate advantage, like some decks do with mentor. If not, well, let's hope at least for a 1 for 1 Smile
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Khahan
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« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2015, 07:58:06 pm »

That doesn't seem all the spectacular to me. Here's a list of cards I can play on or before turn 2 that will draw 1 or more cards by the time t2 is over without using 55% of my cards to that point to achieve this goal (in no particular order of viability):
ancestral recall
brainstorm
ponder
preordain
mystic remora
library of Alexandria
gush
dark confidant
jace, vryns prodigy
gitaxian probe
Repeal

Gush requires 2 islands. Other than that every single card above has an easier casting cost to get into play.

All of those cards make the first draw cheaper, no doubt. But we are talking about well established vintage staples (so a non-superior card could still be playable), and most of them do not allow further drawing. Remora potentially does, at the cost of a cumulative upkeep; library, at the cost of a landrop and limited ability to cast spells; and confidant, which means losing life, shows the card, is worse in the combat phase and cannot potentially draw 2 or draw in the same turn it's played. Jori is not strictly inferior to any (outside ancestral maybe, but most cards are inferior to ancestral). Maybe the secret is to play her and hope she can survive enough to generate advantage, like some decks do with mentor. If not, well, let's hope at least for a 1 for 1 Smile

I was responding to the comments about how she is so great to get out and have activated on turn 2 which people were falling back on as her best case scenario for early game. And again, it takes 5 out of the 8-9 cards you've drawn at that point to trigger her.  She's NOT an early game card. She's actually pretty horrible as an early game card for an extra turn 2 draw.  I listed 11 cards that are cheaper and more efficient for a turn 2 or earlier draw that are all playable.

For the long game I'd still take remora over her in most decks.   She's  just  not a good T1 card for drawing outside of maybe the tribal themed deck that protoaddict posted. The 2/3 body isn't bad but its not really spectacular either. She can chump block a number of common cards all day long but gets rolled by a number of other common creatures.   I'm going to go on record as saying she doesn't see serious tournament play outside of a tribal themed deck and even that isn't going to be a tier 1 or 2 tournament deck.
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evouga
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« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2015, 10:43:36 pm »

This is a fine card. Clearly it's garbage outside of the control mirror, but in the control mirror will passively draw you cards for doing what you already want to be doing: chaining cantrips and fighting counter wars. It's not a burst of card advantage like Ancestral, Gush, etc, it's slow incremental advantage like Library, Remora, or Dark Confidant that you don't have to jump through hoops to enable and doesn't make you die when drawing Dig, Cruise, or FoW.

Is it better than Dack or Jace in that role? It doesn't die to opposing token swarms, but is vulnerable to all of the same removal that is included to fight against Mentor/Pyromancer.
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mmcgeach
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« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2015, 10:58:15 am »

This is a fine card. Clearly it's garbage outside of the control mirror, but in the control mirror will passively draw you cards for doing what you already want to be doing: chaining cantrips and fighting counter wars. It's not a burst of card advantage like Ancestral, Gush, etc, it's slow incremental advantage like Library, Remora, or Dark Confidant that you don't have to jump through hoops to enable and doesn't make you die when drawing Dig, Cruise, or FoW.
This.

Quote
Is it better than Dack or Jace in that role? It doesn't die to opposing token swarms, but is vulnerable to all of the same removal that is included to fight against Mentor/Pyromancer.
But ideally, she protects herself by making the missteps you use on their removal cantrip.  If she makes your missteps cantrip, this card will be amazing.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2015, 12:01:52 pm »

My concerns with the card are as follows:
1. Its 3 mana.  There is a lot of competition at this CMC.
2. It dies to most removal spells in the format, pyro, bolt, dismemeber, swords, ect.
3. Its condition to draw you an extra card can be extremely difficult at times.  It is triggered easily when I have lots of other draw spells in my hand, but it doesn't trigger when I have control cards in hand.  Basically the opposite of what I want from a draw engine.
4. The times its good, mentor is probably better.  The biggest issue with mentor is not having draw spells in hand, coincidentally this card has the same issue.  I could never see this optimally being played over mentor.
5. Its a legend.  This will likely limit it to a singleton at most.
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Protoaddict
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« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2015, 05:29:21 pm »

I see this as a bit of a mentor trump to be honest. Mentor is better if it is on the table granted, but if you can land this first it becomes much easier for you to play the control role and deal with mentor players with the CA it generates. Keep in mind a deck that will play this is likley to play 2 spells on their turn as well as an opponents.
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gkraigher
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« Reply #37 on: January 01, 2016, 12:43:40 am »

I am torn on this card.  I think it's ability is harder to trigger than it looks, but if you do start triggering it, it's ability makes it easy to cascade into more triggers.

I don't think the 2/3 body is impressive.  I'd think differently if it was a 3/3 or a 2/4.  But at 2/3 it does stop a good deal of creatures will remaining in play. 

Torn.  I don't know if it's good or bad.  It's probably fringe playable in the right build. 
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Ten-Ten
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« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2016, 12:40:24 am »

When I saw this card previewed on facebook, I went nuts! "Broken" I said to myself. The more I look at it, the more I move away from that statement. Dark Confidant just looks better at getting you an additional card a turn.  They both require you to build around them but Dark Confidant is still more efficient and can fit in combo, control and aggro plans. Jori En doesn't. Plus, I would rather have Bob against shops than Jori En.
Sad to say Jori En will sit it out alongside cards like Kiora and Narset.
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« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2016, 06:12:05 pm »

When I saw this card previewed on facebook, I went nuts! "Broken" I said to myself.

The card is very far away from broken.  Far far far away. 
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Ten-Ten
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« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2016, 10:43:20 pm »

@gkraigher
Yes, I know. I misread the card at first glance upon preview but then realized you only draw one card when you cast your second spell on your turn. If you could draw a card from casting the second spell of any turn, then yes, that would be a different story. Although, still leaps from being broken. A bit of hyperbole on my part, lol.

I'm trying so hard to like this card but find something better to run in its place every time.
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Khahan
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« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2016, 11:04:56 am »

@gkraigher
Yes, I know. I misread the card at first glance upon preview but then realized you only draw one card when you cast your second spell on your turn. If you could draw a card from casting the second spell of any turn, then yes, that would be a different story. Although, still leaps from being broken. A bit of hyperbole on my part, lol.

I'm trying so hard to like this card but find something better to run in its place every time.

Actually the way its worded you draw a spell whenever you cast your second spell regardless of whose turn it is.  The drawback is that is has to be YOUR second spell. So your opponent casting two spells doesn't trigger it. Your opponent casting one and you casting one doesn't trigger it. 
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thecrav
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« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2016, 05:12:03 pm »

I think it's interesting in Merfolk based mostly on the idea that once Merfolk reaches four mana, it's frequently emptying its hand every turn. That will trigger the Ruin Diver and help feed future turns. This may be better in the legacy builds of Merfolk that are frequently focused on pooping as many lords onto the table as possible.

I threw this deck together online to explore the following ideas:

Free spells are obviously great with Jori
Lots of cheap spells are almost as great
Snapcaster Mage + GY spell = trigger Jori
With all these spells, I definitely want Pyromancer!

After a gold fishing a handful of games, my thoughts are:

The Delve spells are auto-include but non-bo with Snapcaster Mage. However, Snapcaster Mage is great with Jori. 4 is not the correct number of SCMs. I'm going to try 3 but given the large amount of card selection, 2 might be enough.

Proper fetching and Preordaining, as well as the sequence in which you play your cantrips, is much more important. If you trigger Jori with a draw spell, you're drawing one deeper, which can be easy to forget. It's also worth pointing out that you can draw with Jori, then fetch in response to your spell, allowing you to get the top card, then shuffle away the second from the top.

I sometimes found myself actually drawing too many cards. As an example, in a Gush a deck that has so few extra mana producers, you frequently don't want to Ancestral from >5 cards with no extra mana because you'll likely be left with a card in hand that you have to discard. Jori exacerbates this. I once went from 4 cards at the end of my draw step to 9 at the end of my turn.

Jori can trick you into not playing your spells. On my first run through, I found myself wondering if I'd rather hold something to trigger Jori next turn or cast it now. In a deck where you're ~80% to draw more draw spells or answers to their stuff, it's probably correct to continue playing your spells rather than waiting to be able to trigger Jori. However, it's definitely something you'll have to be thinking about on a turn-by-turn basis.

This deck has next to no game against Workshop. However, going heavy on Hurkyl's in the main might be fine. If you're playing against another Gush deck, Hurkyl's Me, replay my Mox might just be a fine play.

Given the desire for free spells and the increased mana usage, an extra off color Mox (emerald or whatever color you splash) is probably worth playing.

~~~~~

Slightly further afield, and certainly greedy, Jori seems nutty good with Jeskai Ascendancy. The deck probably goes from trying to have one turn where you make a 20/20 Fatestitcher to a few turns where you're almost 100% to attack for 5-10.

I swear to Jobs, Macbook, I will throw you out the window if you keep correcting that to Tori.
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maciek16180
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« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2016, 05:25:02 am »

Hello there.

I am pleased to see that other people are trying out Jori as well. I was playing with it for a while now in practice rooms and I got to similar conclusions. Free or cheap spells are great, obviously. Proactive cards seem to be a lot better here then random counterspells. SCM is great, but enough is enough. I wanted to draw Jori relatively often, so I am playing three (probably too much, but it is blue, so whatever).

That being said, my decklist is a bit different. I am playing Jori in a Pyromacer Therapy shell.

4 Young Pyromacer
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Jori En, Ruin Diver

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Dig Through Time
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
4 Gush
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Cabal Therapy

2 Dack Fayden

4 Mental Misstep
4 Force of Will

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus

13 lands:

1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
1 Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
5 blue fetches

Cabal Therapy is a great card with Pyro, and good with Jori too, for being cheap or free to cast. It also gives me maindeck access to more disruption than just 8 counters against fast combo like DPS, Belcher or Tezz, where this kind of deck usually struggles. I am playing all five moxen, which seems strange for a Pyromacer deck, but I thought that if nothing else, they cantrip with Jori, and they help a lot with casting both Jori and Dack on turn 2. Lots of turn one Pyromancers too. Dack is great in this deck, he pitches away additional moxen or lands from gush. I went down on lands due to full set of moxen. I am also playing both Strip and Library, becouse of pure greed. Forth Misstep is to protect guys from Bolt or Plow, but it is also useful against storm or opposing Missteps on your Therapies for example.

When this deck wins, it has like a milion cards in hand. Once you get Jori online she really pulls you ahead, slowly but surely. I found her excellent against slow blue decks, Mentor, other Pyros. In most fast combo matchups I cut her for hate. Same with shops. I don't know what to do against oath, becouse the matchup is so bad that I don't even care to have cages in a board (prefer crypts and leylines for both dredge and DPS).
« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 06:10:00 am by maciek16180 » Logged
fendog
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« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2016, 03:57:17 am »

When this deck wins, it has like a milion cards in hand. Once you get Jori online she really pulls you ahead, slowly but surely. I found her excellent against slow blue decks,

This was my experience last Sunday in a match piloting Blue Moon, losing to Painter running Jori En.
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TheBrassMan
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« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2016, 01:52:16 pm »

I've been playing a bit with Jori En myself - I don't feel like I've found the right shell for the card (I've mostly been playing it in delver style decks which are super-tight on 3 drops), but it's been consistently pretty good in play, and easier to draw cards with than I initially expected.
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« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2016, 02:21:37 pm »

I just tried the Jori En Therapy list for a while and Jori seems awesome. Having 3 toughness is cool. I just don't think this is the perfect shell for it yet, at least not for 3. Most of the times I tapped out to play Jori En, leaving him open for removal. Of course if I counter the removal I draw a card, so it's all good. But I think we need a bit more mana for it to work better. Painter seems awesome with it! I'm picking 3 copies because why not?
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