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Author Topic: Eternal Masters CONFIRMED  (Read 7879 times)
MaximumCDawg
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« on: February 15, 2016, 11:51:31 am »

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/news/announcing-eternal-masters-2016-02-15

Holy balls, they actually went and did it.  Non-reserve list reprints of Legacy / Vintage cards.  This would be awesome if I wasn't totally convinced that sealed product is going to be marked up to 20-30 per pack.

That Force of Will art is SWEET though.  Therese for the win!
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 01:06:04 pm by MaximumCDawg » Logged
jimmycolorado
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« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2016, 12:11:06 pm »

I didn't believe it when the leaker spoiled it, but then again I had been holding off on a Karakas purchase haha. (I hope it's reprinted in the set.)

Will make proxy/playtest tournaments with a fixed number of proxies that much more accessible. So good news over all. And I hope the limited environment is fun, too. I learned a lot of lessons from Modern Masters and applied them to my cubes.
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gkraigher
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« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2016, 02:54:45 pm »

I hope they do this right and print a ton of portal 3 cards.  The world needs more imperial recruiters, imperial seals, and ravages of war more than it needs force of will and wasteland.  

Good news overall.  They were always going to do this at some point. They like money just like everyone else does.  

The curious question is what happens now to the price of cards on the reserved list?  If they are committed to reprinting cards all the cards they can (MM, MM2, eternal masters, MM2017, etc) then the cards they can't reprint should spike. Shouldn't all those cards skyrocket as a response to this new supply of eternal magic cards?

Dual Lands are obvipus winners, but there are lots of them.  I'm more curious what happens to the narrow reserve list cards, that do unique rare things.  

« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 03:44:25 pm by gkraigher » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2016, 03:31:18 pm »

It says in the article $10 per pack
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« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2016, 04:00:29 pm »

It says in the article $10 per pack

True. But every report I've ever heard of modern masters sets talks about how retailers and small timer sellers gouged the price severely.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2016, 04:01:00 pm »

The curious question is what happens now to the price of cards on the reserved list?  If they are committed to reprinting cards all the cards they can (MM, MM2, eternal masters, MM2017, etc) then the cards they can't reprint should spike. Shouldn't all those cards skyrocket as a response to this new supply of eternal magic cards?

Dual Lands are obvipus winners, but there are lots of them.  I'm more curious what happens to the narrow reserve list cards, that do unique rare things.  

I think it's safe to say that all reserve list cards in Legacy go up.  There's two pressure points on that:

1. Increased demand if players want to get into Legacy.  This is possible; it happened with both Modern Masters sets.  The vast majority of cards in a lot of top tier Legacy decks are not on the Reserve List, so people might start wanting to suck it up and dump a few hundred on a the last pieces they need.

2. Flight of capital into Reserve List cards from other eternal staples due to fear of pending reprint.  This one, I think, is more likely to happen than the first.  Anecdotal reports from over at MTGSalvation are that people who have Dual lands up for auction are suddenly moving at the top asking price TODAY when they sat around forever.  I expect a sizeable run on duals and other cards before the spoiler is complete, and another run afterwards.

To cross-post some very useful information:
url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/market-street/market-street-cafe/651725-the-legacy-price-discussion-thread?comment=37

Quote

Definitely expect Duals, Cradle, LED, City of Traitors, and other Reserved-list cards played in popular decks to go up.

Most-played Reserved-List cards at the moment:
1) Duals (primarily the blue ones, followed by Bayou. Played in everything)
2) LED (played in Storm decks and some all-in decks like Belcher/Oops)
3) City of Traitors (played in Show and Tell lists plus various Stax, Stompy, and MUD lists)
4) Mox Diamond (played in various Lands lists and some MUD/Stompy/Stax lists)
5) Gaea's Cradle (played in Elves)
6) Null Rod (some Stax-type lists and Maverick)
7) Metalworker (MUD)
8) Grim Monolith (MUD)
9) Intuition (some Show and Tell builds, some Lands builds, some High Tide builds)
10) Tabernacle (Lands)

Beyond that are some really fringe things.
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gkraigher
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« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2016, 05:18:44 pm »

I can definately see upticks in all of those cards, but it's the candelabra of tawnos, moat, and chains that I see becoming entirely unaffordable for a lot of people.  Oh yeah, almost forgot, the tabernacle at Pendrell vale, I can see that going to $2000 is 3 years.

I think these are the true speculation plays and I am very curious to see where they end up.
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Aaron Patten
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« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2016, 06:36:51 pm »

Moore's law wants a word with you.
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« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2016, 07:40:49 pm »

I know this is a little OT, but was curious if Wizards ever debated reprinting dual lands as a legendary land. Seems like it would be all format playable, open up some interesting design space and usage, and maybe help bridge supply gap.
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« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2016, 07:44:05 pm »

I know this is a little OT, but was curious if Wizards ever debated reprinting dual lands as a legendary land. Seems like it would be all format playable, open up some interesting design space and usage, and maybe help bridge supply gap.

This comes up a lot, and at one point they have stated that a purely legendary dual land is too closed to the spirit of the RL for them to do.
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« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2016, 01:11:07 pm »

I know this is a little OT, but was curious if Wizards ever debated reprinting dual lands as a legendary land. Seems like it would be all format playable, open up some interesting design space and usage, and maybe help bridge supply gap.

This comes up a lot, and at one point they have stated that a purely legendary dual land is too closed to the spirit of the RL for them to do.

not only spirit, it violates the letter:
"A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness."
Note the absence of 'supertype' from that list..so straight legendary duals, or straight snow duals are 'functionally identical'
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2016, 03:09:06 pm »

I know this is a little OT, but was curious if Wizards ever debated reprinting dual lands as a legendary land. Seems like it would be all format playable, open up some interesting design space and usage, and maybe help bridge supply gap.

This comes up a lot, and at one point they have stated that a purely legendary dual land is too closed to the spirit of the RL for them to do.

not only spirit, it violates the letter:
"A card is considered functionally identical to another card if it has the same card type, subtypes, abilities, mana cost, power, and toughness."
Note the absence of 'supertype' from that list..so straight legendary duals, or straight snow duals are 'functionally identical'

That's not really relevant, because we could theorycraft functionally non-identical cards all day that would invalidate or supplement the existing dual lands:

Scry Dual
Forest Plains
When this enters the battlefield, each player Scrys 1.

Happy Dual
Swamp Island
You can't cast Enchantment spells.

Zippy Dual
Mountain Forest
If this would enter the battlefield from a location other than your hand, it enters the battlefield tapped.

Etc, etc.  There's an infinite number of ways for WotC to print cards on the same power level as the original duals, or close to it anyway.  They choose not to for power level and other concerns, but the Reserve List doesn't stop it.
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« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2016, 04:46:04 pm »

Max Dawg, I agree that they could print dual lands like that, but those would never supplement the original duals.  You would always have the problem that one player with the original cards would always be better off than the player with the inferior cards.  So printing more "strange" dual lands really only benefits the player with the original duals to begin with.  It's counter productive.

A better way to do it would be to make Land cards that are a specific type that also produce colorless mana, then continue to expand the number of cards requiring colorless mana costs.
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« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2016, 05:03:27 pm »

I think clever designs, especially in the vein the Savannah that has both players Scry 1, wouldn't necessarily be inferior to an ABUR dual. It's situationally better and situationally worse, making it an interesting design for vintage. I'm not entirely sure that it's functionally different enough from Savannah for WotC's comfort though.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2016, 05:28:51 pm »

I think clever designs, especially in the vein the Savannah that has both players Scry 1, wouldn't necessarily be inferior to an ABUR dual. It's situationally better and situationally worse, making it an interesting design for vintage. I'm not entirely sure that it's functionally different enough from Savannah for WotC's comfort though.

It's hard to say, but remember, they found this sweet spot for countermagic already.  You don't have to own Mana Drain to complete with a blue deck in Vintage anymore, and that's huge.  There's no reason other parts of Vintage could not get the same treatment.  In fact, I'd argue that this is EXACTLY what WotC has been doing lately.
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« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2016, 06:37:46 pm »

I'm really hopeful that we get at least a couple new cards that WotC wouldn't necessarily be able to make in a Commander product that can really help Vintage and or Legacy. That's what I'm mostly excited about. That and Foil Dacks that aren't the price of a car down payment.
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Aaron Patten
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« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2016, 02:59:34 pm »

A better way to do it would be to make Land cards that are a specific type that also produce colorless mana, then continue to expand the number of cards requiring colorless mana costs.
This can easily produce more problems than solutions.  You can't print new cards that are superior to old ones without obsolescing the old ones.  If colourless matters got better than playing colours it would hurt the diversity of the format. 
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« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2016, 03:51:16 pm »

A better way to do it would be to make Land cards that are a specific type that also produce colorless mana, then continue to expand the number of cards requiring colorless mana costs.
This can easily produce more problems than solutions.  You can't print new cards that are superior to old ones without obsolescing the old ones.  If colourless matters got better than playing colours it would hurt the diversity of the format. 

I feel like If they ever printed new cards that were actually better than the old ones, then those new cards would probably end up in the same price range as the cards they replaced.
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MaximumCDawg
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« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2016, 05:02:52 pm »

A better way to do it would be to make Land cards that are a specific type that also produce colorless mana, then continue to expand the number of cards requiring colorless mana costs.
This can easily produce more problems than solutions.  You can't print new cards that are superior to old ones without obsolescing the old ones.  If colourless matters got better than playing colours it would hurt the diversity of the format.  

I feel like If they ever printed new cards that were actually better than the old ones, then those new cards would probably end up in the same price range as the cards they replaced.

This isn't speculation.  Wizards already pulled off this feat for lots of Vintage staples.  

Mana Drain -> Flusterstorm, Misstep, Mindbreak, Spell Pierce, etc etc
Trike/Juggernaut -> Lodestone, Hellkite, Battlesphere, Forgemaster, etc etc
Ancestral -> Treasure Cruise, Dig Through Time (aaaallllmost)

There's no reason they couldn't do the same thing with dual lands, moxen, or anything else relevant to the format except for concerns over power level.
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« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2016, 11:48:11 pm »

I could see dual lands being rebranded and printed in some fashion - scry, whatever.  Moxen and lotus, no way.  Then, even restricted, you double the amount of moxen/loti in your deck and that would accelerate formats too much.  WotC likes games to advance beyond turn 3.  I could MAYBE see a colorless mox, with all this eldrazi stuff now.  0-tap for a colorless.  That adds a tinge of power to already powered decks, but it's as close as you can get to reprinting a mox without being flat out busted.  It'd have to be commander too, otherwise, you'd break standard and modern.
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« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2016, 12:09:40 am »

Oh ye of little imagination.  You can absolutely print new moxen.  Pour example:

Crappy Mox Jet
0
When Crappy Mox Jet enters the battlefield, reveal your hand and library to target opponent.  That opponent may choose any card named Mox Jet from your hand, deck, or graveyard, and exile it.  Shuffle your library afterwards.
T: Add B to your mana pool.

Is this a good design?  Heck no!  But it's certainly proof that it's certainly possible to print cards that are mutually exclusive with the original moxen but also fill the same role.
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« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2016, 10:05:44 am »

Oh ye of little imagination.  You can absolutely print new moxen.  Pour example:

Crappy Mox Jet
0
When Crappy Mox Jet enters the battlefield, reveal your hand and library to target opponent.  That opponent may choose any card named Mox Jet from your hand, deck, or graveyard, and exile it.  Shuffle your library afterwards.
T: Add B to your mana pool.

Is this a good design?  Heck no!  But it's certainly proof that it's certainly possible to print cards that are mutually exclusive with the original moxen but also fill the same role.

you could still play that in a deck with jet. when you draw it, play it, and it's like you're playing 1 jet. when you draw jet first, play it, and now you're playing a deck with 2 jets.
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« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2016, 10:24:21 am »

Oh ye of little imagination.  You can absolutely print new moxen.  Pour example:

Crappy Mox Jet
0
When Crappy Mox Jet enters the battlefield, reveal your hand and library to target opponent.  That opponent may choose any card named Mox Jet from your hand, deck, or graveyard, and exile it.  Shuffle your library afterwards.
T: Add B to your mana pool.

Is this a good design?  Heck no!  But it's certainly proof that it's certainly possible to print cards that are mutually exclusive with the original moxen but also fill the same role.

you could still play that in a deck with jet. when you draw it, play it, and it's like you're playing 1 jet. when you draw jet first, play it, and now you're playing a deck with 2 jets.

Yea it's not like storm would pass up the chance to just play a second mox jet if it was functionally so similar that the only thing it does is thin the deck if it comes down before mox jet.
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« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2016, 11:38:07 am »

Jeez, fine, you're missing the forest for the trees.  My point is you could design a card that can't be played with the original Moxen if you really wanted to; not that this particular language is perfect.  If you want something specific to talk about, here:

SUPER RESTRICTED MOX JET
0
Artifact
When you play SUPER SPECIAL MOX JET, reveal your hand, library, and face-down cards in exile to target opponent.  Then, you lose the game if you own a card named "Mox Jet" or "SUPER RESTRICTED MOX JET" in any of those zones, or any other zone.  Shuffle your library afterwards.
T: Add B to your mana pool.

The lack of imagination on these guys, I tell ya...

EDIT: This would be a hilarious card to print in an UN-set, actually.  That's the only context where this level of haberdashery might actually fly.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 11:42:28 am by MaximumCDawg » Logged
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« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2016, 03:46:21 pm »

Personally I would love see them do away with the no reprint list.    I think its the only way older formats will have a long term survival.  The pricing to break into Vintage is just utterly ridiculous now.  Moxen are simply priced out of prize range for tournaments.  Duals, while any 1 is not really outrageously priced, are used in sets of 4 and most decks run 4-8.  Duals lands alone you are talking 1500-2000 for a deck for a new player.

A set like modern masters only for vintage with these cards in it and just not put the set in the modern or t2 rotation.  Release it for draft only.  An injection of new mox, duals, bazaars, LoA's is sorely needed.  10 years ago when a lotus was $500 to $800 and moxen were about $300 a piece people thought the price was a bar to entry. But tournament organizers at least could offer up a mox or two for first and second in prizes and with proxies people could use tournaments to build their collection.  Now its just even worse for new players.

But aside from that there is another good reason for a new circulation of these cards. Its been 22 years since these cards have seen circulation.   In that time many have been destroyed. Too many have been put into hard cases and graded and become collector items.  And even more have gone into private collections and disappeared from circulation.   How many mox and loti do you think are sitting out there in some 40-something year olds closet that he bought when he was in college and they were new and he's since stopped playing?   We've lost thousands of these cards because of that kind of scenario.   Its been 22 years.   Its time for blizzard to wake up and realize they need to get a few thousand of these back into circulation.   The dip in price would be needed and, when you are talking about a game running into its 3rd decade with no real end in sight, also temporary. In another 20 years we'll be right back where we are now, needing another injection of cards.

I've always felt the no-print-list was a mistake. A hard line in the sand like that can only lead to problems. They should have declared these cards will never be printed for use in a format beyond vintage again. Leaves them some wiggle room to fix issues.
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« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2016, 03:52:13 pm »

Wizards has no reason to assume the risk of breaking the reserved list policy.  One of the biggest reasons Magic has been so successful over the years compared to other games is its commitment to respecting collectors, and the secondary market.
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« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2016, 10:47:35 pm »

For Duals, I always thought they should print something like this:

Murky Depths
Island Swamp
You may not play more than a combined total of 4 cards named Murky Depths and Underground Sea in a deck.
 {Tap} Add  {U} or  {B} to your mana pool.

Still fetchable and functions like Underground Sea in every way.  Still limits to 4 copies in eternal decks and doesn't break the reserve list.  Seems viable.  Simply lowering the entry point for duals alone would significantly increase people's ability to buy into paper Vintage and Legacy.
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« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2016, 10:33:10 am »

Wizards has no reason to assume the risk of breaking the reserved list policy.  One of the biggest reasons Magic has been so successful over the years compared to other games is its commitment to respecting collectors, and the secondary market.

Care to give some facts to back up the opinion?   Its not an invalid opinion. Its one many people share. But if you are going to use it claim that Blizzard shouldn't break the restricted list you've got to do more than just say, "I don't think they should."

Again it is fact that the number of cards in circulation has decreased over the years.

Blizzard IS affecting the secondary market by not addressing this issue. They are implicit in the sky-rocketing cost of out of print cards by keeping them out of print. Its not disrespecting collectors to replenish the stock.   Quite frankly I find it disrespectful that there are a handful of mass volume collectors who have driven the market to the point where it is now.    When was the last "Mox Tournament"? You know, a tournament where first place gets a mox, second gets a BB English dual. 3rd/4th get a playset of forces or drains.  The market no longer bears this as reasonable.


Whens the last time anybody but investment collectors could reasonably actually collect old MtG cards?   And to be honest, a release of restricted list cards would do 2 things:
1. temporarily give new players a chance to get their hands on these cards to use and collect.

2. temporarily soften the secondary market.  But as we've all seen with cards like tarmogoyf, the market would bounce back.

I'm not suggesting they should break the restricted list willy-nilly and have these cards reprinted as often as counterspell has been reprinted. I'm not even suggesting they reprint them once every 5 years or a do a print run with 50,000 of each card.

But a limited run reprint, say 3000-4000 of each would replenish the diminishing supply of cards like moxen, lotus, bazaars, workshops, libraries etc.   You cannot argue that the supply has not gone down over the years. And having 1 reprint done in 22 years of a limited run - do you HONESTLY think this would actually dampen the secondary market?   If anything it may make the cost go up a bit more after a few months. But at least with a stock of packs people COULD get into the market in other ways and COULD get into vintage in a way other than a second mortgage.
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« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2016, 05:38:53 pm »

I did not say I don't think they should or shouldn't.  I said they won't assume that kind of risk without reason, currently no reason really exists.  As I said the reasoning is the the collector market.  I'll elaborate further though.

Breaking a promise made with collectors/dealers can have extremely negative impacts with these customers.  They tested the water with Negator and got a lot of negative feedback (and that card was t expensive and isn't even playable anymore).  What kind of feedback do you think they would get from these people if they printed more expensive cards?  Is it worth taking all this risk just to make a few extra bucks?

Think about a Cow.  I can naturally milk my cow a number of times over the years, making good money off its milk, or I can inject it with hormones and force it to produce more milk in the short term, but also potentially killing it in the long run, or I could sell the cow to a butcher and make a lot now and none later.  Now none of these are necessarily right or wrong ways of making money, but Wizards has chosen route number 1 with magic.  

If the business starts struggling or it comes under new management maybe then you'll see the reserved list abolished, but I can't realistically see it before that.

I don't really get all the wacky work arounds... There is language in the reserved list stating that they wouldn't do that.  Also it would be confusing and kind of tacky.  If they wanted to print these cards they would just do it.  They wouldnt make "fake mox #24".
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« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2016, 07:17:29 pm »

How did they reprint Memory Jar? Is mythic exempt?
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