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Author Topic: Eternal Masters CONFIRMED  (Read 8083 times)
Aaron Patten
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« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2016, 08:01:56 pm »

It was foil and thus exempt at the time.  Same story to Negator.
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« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2016, 09:31:08 pm »

How did they reprint Memory Jar? Is mythic exempt?

From wiki:
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2010 revision
The original policy only applied to non-premium cards, meaning that Reserved cards could still be reprinted as a premium-exclusive card (and quite a number of cards had been reprinted such way). Starting in 2011, no cards on the reserved list would be printed in either premium or non-premium form.

They got backlash so they updated the policy.
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« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2016, 08:29:56 am »

I think this set is well more focused on legacy and commander than it is Vintage to be perfectly honest. it is going to introduce a lot of foils for cards that did not have them prior which commander players will gobble up, and honestly with the exception of a few mythics I highly doubt it is going to fix the availability problem vintage has.

In legacy, honestly the only avails they need worry about are lands that they cannot reprint, which are the duals, Tabernacle, Gaea's Cradle, and City of traitors. They have been instead of trying to print lands that would be suitable replacements for the duals, promote decks that do not need the dual lands and instead want specialty ones, but every time they seem to do this what winds up happening is some other reserve list card comes up.

Eldrazi became a deck people are toying around with in legacy now and it is showing promising results, but then suddenly you realize you need need City of traitors and that card is now over 100 bucks.

I have been saying for some time WOTC needs to come up with some new fetchable dual lands that are not shocks and do not directly compete with traditional ones. I like the Scry idea, But I think what they would actually need to do is make 10 new lands, each legendary in all likelihood, and each with a unique ability that some decks would never use but others could take advantage of. A Savanah that gains each player 2 life when it etb would be terrible for aggro zoo decks but amazing for someone playing control, for instance.

I mean, without killing off the reserve list I do not think there will ever been a fix for the eventual downfall of the formats in paper. It honestly bothers me that you can have a format where you can print things willy nilly online but not actually print them for the player base who has clamored for them for so long. this set may take care of some low hanging fruit but I doubt it will fix the problem even slightly as the other cards not in the set skyrocket in value.
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« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2016, 12:23:21 pm »

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Care to give some facts to back up the opinion?   Its not an invalid opinion. Its one many people share. But if you are going to use it claim that Blizzard shouldn't break the restricted list you've got to do more than just say, "I don't think they should."

Khahan,

Part of the allure of Magic the Gathering is that it is a collectible card game that has been around since 1993--23 years.  If Magic was not a collectible card game, I would have very little interest in it.  If I could go to the store and tell them to print me a bunch of Lotuses, Moxen, and Dual Lands for $1 each the game would be no different than Monopoly or Risk or Cards Against Humanity.  Sure there would be more players and everyone would have every card that they want, but I would argue that it would decrease diversity.

See the scarcity of some Magic cards forces innovation.  It makes you work with what you have.  I would welcome Blue Dual lands to jump to $1000 each because it would force other players to innovate with other decks.  (For the record I only own 4 blue dual lands.)  Price actually leads to diversity in the meta, if price was not an obstacle, you would have less diversity.  That's not what you want in a collectible card game with a tournament environment.  

I'll also argue that the rise in the price of cards has been a good thing for the eternal formats.  It makes it so the players who have money invested in the game travel to large tournaments like Eternal Weekend (higher numbers each year in spite of higher prices).  If Vintage Worlds all of a sudden had 2000 players in it, it would be a nightmare for all.  I don't want an influx of 1000s of Vintage players.  I don't want Eternal Weekend to be the same thing as a Standard Grand Prix.  It wouldn't be as fun, and the community would suffer.  Right now the Vintage community is a pretty tight niche group of people, who know each other.

But in all honesty, I wouldn't play this game if the cards weren't rare.  They say Rome wasn't built in a day.  I've been building my Magic card collection for 22 years.  I'm sorry that someone who just discovers the game feels like they can't buy 40 dual lands and a set of power 9 out of the gate.  Money is not the only component in having a magic collection, time is.  TIME.  There is no short cutting time.  

Onto a different tangent, Wizards has advertised on their website that there is a Reserve list.  They have double downed on the policy, and the game has continued to grow.  If they break that promise, I would start a class action lawsuit against them because I was materially financially hurt by their false advertising.  It's akin to cigarette companies saying there was no link to smoking and cancer.  It hurt people, especially on financial/medical costs, and they lost a huge class action lawsuit because of it.  

But you really don't want reprints of Duals or Power.  Honestly, you don't.  You might want a few cards you don't have, and that is part of the beauty of Magic the Gathering.  There are only a handful of players in the game that have every single card that they want.  You always want something else.  Even if you reach some happy equilibrium, Wizards prints new cards that effect old cards that you might not own.  That's great.  
 
Lastly, because of Magic's collect ability, it has become a commodity.  The closest comparison to Magic, in the entire world, is Gold.  Gold is a cross country currency hedge, whereby you could easily exchange it for a currency in any country.  If you travel to Sydney Australia, you can get Aussie Dollars for your cards.  If you travel to China, you can easily turn it into Yuan.  And if your currency is on the verge of collapse (see the Euro and the Yen) you can buy Magic cards as an investment.  Magic cards have become an investment vehicle.  It's because of it's popularity and it's rareness that allows it to be one.  Reprinting a single card on the reserve list jeopardizes this status.  

Paper Magic has legs.  It's reached a point where I think it might always exist, at least during our lifetimes (50-75 more years).  If people start selling out of paper Magic, there are many other players waiting to buy in.  A 25% decrease in eternal magic cards across the board wouldn't be the end of the game, it would be a changing of the guard.  Players who leave would simply be replaced.  The cards will make it into the hand of people who want to play the format.  Who want to travel, and who want to join a community that is open to anyone and everyone who wants to join.  

In conclusion, I welcome higher prices.  The people who complain about buyouts are the ones who don't own the cards, and who probably never were going to.  The ones who don't complain are the people who make money on it and don't voice their happiness when their pockets get fuller.  People like me, who have been playing and loving this game for years of their lives.  Higher prices don't just benefit my pocketbook, they benefit the community by naturally removing the players who don't care and who aren't fully committed to the game.  
« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 05:03:29 pm by gkraigher » Logged
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« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2016, 01:57:55 pm »

I couldn't have said it better myself, gkraigher -- well put!
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« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2016, 10:12:40 pm »

To me, it seems elitist to want prices to keep getting higher.
I have mixed feelings on the matter, however. The only cards I think should have never been on the reserved list are Lands. Very simple. I, myself, can figure out and find a way to assemble a decent deck Without P9.
Using shock-duals work to a degree.
 Then again, I build either combo/control or control/combo decks mostly, no matter what colors I use Wink

All that said, It's bittersweet to see prices rise to ridiculous amounts.
 I am very excited about Eternal Masters and future Eternal format releases, no matter what.
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« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2016, 11:02:00 pm »


In conclusion, I welcome higher prices.  The people who complain about buyouts are the ones who don't own the cards, and who probably never were going to.  The ones who don't complain are the people who make money on it and don't voice their happiness when their pockets get fuller.  People like me, who have been playing and loving this game for years of their lives.  Higher prices don't just benefit my pocketbook, they benefit the community by naturally removing the players who don't care and who aren't fully committed to the game.  


I dont disagree with a lot of what you said. It also doesn't change my opinion that breaking the reprint list on very rare occasion in a very controlled and thought out manner is a good thing and needed. In fact some of your points just reinforce that notion to me.  Very Happy

This last part I vehemently disagree with. You see I'm a collector, too. I have been since 1994. I own many (not all, but many) of the cards we are discussing. I got my duals when they were $5 a piece and in all I'm just 2 short of a full play set. I got one of my moxen when it was about $200.  I recently (within the past 2 months) picked up another Mox and a timetwister.   Mana drains, karakas, alpha duals, mana crypt.  I'll be hopefully picking up an LoA in the next few weeks. So yes, I have the very cards and have paid the current prices and I still see the current prices as a problem and a roadblock to entry.

The assertion that 'Higher prices don't just benefit my pocketbook, they benefit the community by naturally removing the players who don't care and who aren't fully committed to the game.' is simply laughable. Sorry, for the most part I either agree with you or agree to disagree. But this is one of the most disingenuous ideas I've ever read on the internet.  You should have stopped with  the higher prices benefiting your pocketbook.

The only community higher prices are better for is the community who wants to treat magic cards like a commodity or a stock exchange.  If you can admit that without silly qualifications that its better for everybody, I have no problem with you. If that is what floats your boat and you enjoy speculating in cardboard pictures, go for it. I truly hope you are successful and get enjoyment from it and earn cash at it. I dont begrudge anybody who plays it smart and makes a few bucks. But when prices become a bar to entry, I'm going to speak up.  

When Mox were $300 to $400 I felt they were pricey but doable and justifiable. When duals were $35-$50 a piece for blues I thought they were pricey but doable.   Now mox are going for $900 to $1200 a pop?  Who is going to look at T1 and say, "Ok, here's $2000 for duals I'll need, another $1000 for the other various cards (4x FoW, flusterstorm, mentors, LoA, tutors, SDT...whatever deck it is, the adds up fast). Now I can proxy the P9 and spend $3000 and start playing in a format dominated by people who have these cards and have been playing at this power level for year."   The tight knit niche community - dies.  It doesn't need to explode and have tournaments go from being 30 players to 130 players.

As a community we are slowly bleeding players. Except for online which seems to be growing. And what happened in the near past online - they released a way get P9 and duals and other old cards!

You are also painting a picture of a market flooded by reprints.   First a) whats the big deal about people actually being able to get the cards they want to play with?      and   B) where did you ever get the idea I was suggesting that blizzard flood the market and release so many cards that their values plummet to nothing?         I can answer a for you - you think it takes away from the mystique and the value of a CCG.   I agree. When everything is so plentiful there is no real point to collecting.    But the pendulum on some of these cards has swung too far (in my eyes) to the side of exclusivity.  I dont collect to make money. I collect for the simple joy of collecting and to play the game. That's it.   On this point - is it too uncollectible (is that a real word? If not, it should be now) I think we have to agree to disagree. Its a sliding scale and everybody will have a different break point.

But for the second part - flooding the market. You are arguing against something that I am not suggesting. If you would like to debate the merits of a Vintage Masters type set I'll be more than happy to have that discussion with you. I still see a lot of benefit to a limited but playable reprinting of out of print cards on very rare occasion.  But I have no desire to debate the benefits of a market flooded with Moxen because I, like you,  have no desire to see that myself.  I just dont want to see the eventuality of the market being dried up either because that leads to stagnation in the playing community. A nice balance in between suits me much better.  




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« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2016, 11:16:33 pm »

Snip

I'm not taking a position here but there are three areas where I think your logic is suspect:

1) Where are a significant number of people advocating for printing Power like Monopoly money? The much more prevalent and relevant position is that of a limited print run, similar to what they did for Vintage Masters, Modern Masters 1, and Modern Masters 2. You are creating a straw man here.

2) Arguing that scarcity breeds innovation and diversity is specious at best. How many budget decks do you see at a typical Vintage event? How many actually perform well? How much diversity is there within budget options: an unpowered version of another Vintage deck like Delver or Landstill, pick your hatebears.dec, Dredge (hardly budget now)? If you look at Vintage now, innovation in the format comes from those who have Power and are not constrained by scarcity. Look at Brain Kelly's list. Look at my lists (Humanstorm, Prodigy Dragon, MUC, Sensei Sensei that I won a set of online power with). Having access to the core cards in the format actually lets you attack the metagame in novel ways. Relegating yourself to playing without Power pigeonholes you into very narrow strategies in which there is actually little room to innovate. And that's if you even bother playing the format...most players are not going to invest time and effort into a format they feel they are at a competitive disadvantage because of card scarcity. What actually promotes innovation is a large, motivated player base unencumbered by card availability, which is quite hampered by the Reserve list.

3) Trying to keep Vintage exclusive and new people from joining sounds very similar in my opinion to Donald Trump building a giant wall...it is likely to be counterproductive in the long run. I was a new player 3 years ago and have enjoyed the influx of people since then - many are my friends. The community is based on inclusion, not exclusion, in my opinion.
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« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2016, 01:23:52 am »

I love Magic the Gathering, I think everyone in this forum does.  What I do not like are 3000 person tournaments that take extraneous amours of time to run.  I like the fact that the Eternal Weekend gets around 800-900 people for Legacy and 400-500 people for Vintage, and is growing at a mild pace each year.  These numbers are perfect for highly competitive play, but manageable in time.  I do not wish for these high end Eternal format tournaments to become the same thing as a Standard Grand Prix.  If I wanted to play in a 3000 person tournament, I would sell my collection, buy some nice things, and play standard.  

Another fun fact, as cards have gotten more expensive, tournament attendance has increased.  Standard decks are the most expensive they have ever been, thanks $100 Baby Jace, and attendance is up.  Modern prices are through the roof, as is attendance at modern events.  Two years ago Grand Prix New Jersey came close to breaking records, Seattle last year is much less assessable so attendance was down.  Do you see a trend?  Higher prices have lead to higher attendance.  Because when people spend more money on cards, its a lot easier to justify travel expenses.  And it's also easier to justify travel expenses to a legacy tournament half way across the country when your local shop only has 10 players who play the format.  

As far as a "small batches" approach to selling power, duals, and breaking the reserve list. I call total horseshit on that.  Hasbo owns Wizards, they are a major corporation who cares about the bottom line.  Once they open up the floodgates, they won't be able to shut them off.  The game will turn into Monopoly, another Hasbro game.  

You hear all the endless and hopeless cries right now from players who don't own all the cards they want to own.  Magnify it by 10000 if they do a small reprint of reserve list cards.  If those people had hope, it will only grow louder and louder.  It would only be a small matter of time before no one buys another standard card ever again.  GG everyone loses.

Why buy a booster draft, when everyone and their mother has a power cube?  Seriously it's game over.  I'd guarantee you would stop caring, and wonder why you've wasted all this time, money, thought, and energy on something that's as worthless as Monopoly money. 
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 01:43:22 am by gkraigher » Logged
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« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2016, 03:28:58 am »

I love Magic the Gathering, I think everyone in this forum does.  What I do not like are 3000 person tournaments that take extraneous amours of time to run.  I like the fact that the Eternal Weekend gets around 800-900 people for Legacy and 400-500 people for Vintage, and is growing at a mild pace each year.  These numbers are perfect for highly competitive play, but manageable in time.  I do not wish for these high end Eternal format tournaments to become the same thing as a Standard Grand Prix.  If I wanted to play in a 3000 person tournament, I would sell my collection, buy some nice things, and play standard. 

You certainly do not love logic. Even in the unlikely event that there were 3000 person Vintage tournaments, there would not only be 3000 person tournaments. You keep trumpeting on about a "Standard Grand Prixs" ignoring the fact that there are also a myriad of other competitive options ranging from FNMs to SCG invitationals offered to Standard players who don't want to go to a Grand Prix. If Vintage were successful enough to have 3000 people at its premier tournaments, it would assuredly give rise to these smaller regional events. As it is now, you can find Vintage events weekly in the Northeast US, monthly in certain select areas, and nowhere in the vast majority of the World. Oh, and on Magic Online, though Wednesday's daily didn't fire and Thursdays just barely got enough people.

Another fun fact, as cards have gotten more expensive, tournament attendance has increased.  Standard decks are the most expensive they have ever been, thanks $100 Baby Jace, and attendance is up.  Modern prices are through the roof, as is attendance at modern events.  Two years ago Grand Prix New Jersey came close to breaking records, Seattle last year is much less assessable so attendance was down.  Do you see a trend?  Higher prices have lead to higher attendance.  Because when people spend more money on cards, its a lot easier to justify travel expenses.  And it's also easier to justify travel expenses to a legacy tournament half way across the country when your local shop only has 10 players who play the format.

Correlation does not equal causation. Magic has grown at all levels because of WotC's coordinated efforts at promoting the brand along with independent efforts by Star City and TCGPlayer to run and cover tournaments that players enjoy playing and watching. The growth of other formats has overshadowed that of Vintage and Legacy and now, guess what? SCG has shifted it's resources away from Legacy to Modern and Standard. You are also focusing on Vintage Champs (I think you are underselling Nick Coss's efforts here) and ignoring the decline of Vintage events in Europe, which is cherry-picking your data.

As far as a "small batches" approach to selling power, duals, and breaking the reserve list. I call total horseshit on that.  Hasbo owns Wizards, they are a major corporation who cares about the bottom line.  Once they open up the floodgates, they won't be able to shut them off.  The game will turn into Monopoly, another Hasbro game. 

You hear all the endless and hopeless cries right now from players who don't own all the cards they want to own.  Magnify it by 10000 if they do a small reprint of reserve list cards.  If those people had hope, it will only grow louder and louder.  It would only be a small matter of time before no one buys another standard card ever again.  GG everyone loses.

This is a classic slippery slope fallacy. One need only look Modern Masters 1 and 2 to see that your assertion is, as you so elegantly put it, "total horseshit".

Why buy a booster draft, when everyone and their mother has a power cube?  Seriously it's game over.  I'd guarantee you would stop caring, and wonder why you've wasted all this time, money, thought, and energy on something that's as worthless as Monopoly money.

Believe it or not, some people actually like playing other formats for reasons outside of card availability - some people like the rotating nature of Standard, some people hate playing against Shops and Dredge, many will change it up "just because", and many will play what their friends play whether it be Commander, Modern, Legacy, etc. To assume that everyone will play Powered Cube and Vintage...well you know how the saying goes. And let's look at poker as a game that has succeeded without the "collectible" aspect - Magic's success has had much more to do with it being a game than it being collectible. Heck, less well designed and managed, and you probably would have them in a shoebox in your closet with your Pokemon cards and Baseball Trading Cards...

Everyone has a right to their own opinion on these boards, but I wish you would take the time to actually construct solid arguments in support of your position. The most convincing aspect of your previous posts has been the legalese and I frankly do not have the knowledge to comment on that.
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« Reply #40 on: February 26, 2016, 04:58:01 am »

I own everything I need to play almost any deck in Vintage champs and I would rejoice if the reserved list was broken tomorrow. I do not believe that forcing people to spend 10k USD on a manabase somehow makes them committed to the format. Indeed, if I had not bought into Vintage before the VSL started, I would struggle to justify being able to afford to do so today. It is irrelevant to commitment but is a monetary issue. I do not want a community where we exclude people for monetary reasons like that. Please understand that if I was not lucky enough to be in a position to spend money on such things, I would not be able to participate in Vintage champs year after year.

Also, correlation does not equal causation. There are a number of reasons why Vintage champs has been growing every year. Saying that it is due to increasing prices is suspect at best.

As I said in the other thread, Eternal Masters is simply going to redistribute the cost of a Vintage deck in the long run, making reserved list cards more expensive. However, this is probably a net positive for Vintage as 15-proxy Vintage will become a lot more affordable. This will come at the cost of making the jump of 15-proxy to 0-proxy a hell of a lot harder.
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« Reply #41 on: February 26, 2016, 10:02:01 am »


As far as a "small batches" approach to selling power, duals, and breaking the reserve list. I call total horseshit on that.  Hasbo owns Wizards, they are a major corporation who cares about the bottom line.  Once they open up the floodgates, they won't be able to shut them off.  The game will turn into Monopoly, another Hasbro game.  

You hear all the endless and hopeless cries right now from players who don't own all the cards they want to own.  Magnify it by 10000 if they do a small reprint of reserve list cards.  If those people had hope, it will only grow louder and louder.  It would only be a small matter of time before no one buys another standard card ever again.  GG everyone loses.

This is a classic slippery slope fallacy. One need only look Modern Masters 1 and 2 to see that your assertion is, as you so elegantly put it, "total horseshit".

And now we have a masters set every year.  Sure it looks like slippery slope fallacy, but it's a reality.  Give the players what they want, then they demand more.  Sell the cards at 3x what you sell normal packs for and the Board of Hasbro wants more.  

I took a logic class in college, I know all the "fallacies" you are evoking.  Believe it or not, because something is fallacious that doesn't make the statement WRONG.  It simply makes it fallacious.  

Quote
I do not want a community where we exclude people for monetary reasons like that.

No matter how you cut this, people will always be excluded from the Eternal formats.  If you exclude 10,000 people or 1 person, there will always be an exclusion.  What you are suggesting is idealistic.  In a situation where no one is excluded from the format, people will be excluded from tournaments because they will have to cap the number of participants for time constraints.  There is no way to include everyone all the time.

Magic is a collectible card game first.  The tournament scenes to Magic are great, but that's just a bonus.  I'm sorry I still believe in Capitalism and the Rule of Law.  There are plenty of Power 9 and Dual lands out there currently not in use.  The market of all participants, through natural supply and demand, has determined the price of these cards.  I'm sorry if you don't agree with natural forces like economics, but it's the reality of the situation.  And since they have used the Reserve List as a marketing tool to grow the game, through the argument of collectability, the Rule of Law keeps it that way.  
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 10:16:27 am by gkraigher » Logged
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« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2016, 10:09:43 am »

Guys, let's keep this peaceful.
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« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2016, 11:28:30 am »

Man, I love a good discussion!  Let me throw in my totally worthless internet fueled opinion!!

For starters, let’s review the contract law behind the Reserve List.  A contract has three parts:  (1) a promise, (2) definiteness, and (3) consideration. 

Wizards has promised not to reprint cards in any tournament legal capacity, correct?  That sounds like a promise to me.

Any cards on this list are protected from tournament legal or functionally identical reprints.  That is pretty definite.

Now we have the stumbling block.  Consideration is a legal detriment the promisee (Magic players) suffers.  A legal detriment is giving up something we have a legal right to do, or abstaining from that right.  What are we giving up for Wizards?  Did we promise to give up our money to buy their product?  Did we promise to not walk away from the game?  What are we abstaining from?  Buying Pokemon?  I’d argue there is no consideration for any Magic player.   

So we see the basic contract fails the elements.  However, what about promissory estoppel?  Promissory estoppel in contract law deals with one party’s reliance on a promise. 

In this case, the promise given was no reprints.  We, as Magic players, have relied on it for a long time sinking untold amounts of money into singles.  When we spend hundreds to thousands on Reserve List cards, we do so knowing they will continue to rise due to the promise of no reprints.  Promissory estoppel seems like a good argument.

However, I see an issue in Wizard’s promise itself.  Arguably it is an illusory promise, which is not enforceable. 

An illusory promise is basically “if I feel like it.”  For example, “I’ll give you ten dollars if I feel like it.”  In our case, Wizards promise could be interpreted to say “We won’t reprint these cards if we feel like it.”  That is the effect that no consideration has on promises.  We have to take it on good faith that Wizards intends to honor it. 

I could keep analyzing this, and in fact this is just one opinion on this specific promise.  I’m sure Hasbro lawyers have obviously seen things as a worst-case scenario which is why the “promise” was tightened in 2010.  I think our real problem at Wizards is Type 2 and their business model.

Way back in 1995 they introduced Type 2 to get away from the “collector” mentality that basically strangled Type 1 and caused the Chronicles debacle.  Ever since, Type 1 and Type 1.5 have been dying a slow death.  That death has been steamrolling since the Reserve List was created, and has grown leaps and bounds again since 2010.  Wizards obviously likes their business model of constant rotation (aka Type 2) because it forces people to buy their product. 

Until we can find a way for Eternal players to constantly give our money to Wizards, they will continue to ignore us.  MTGO is a possible outlet, but the mismanagement and general disdain for the software will continue to leave that program in the hands of the grinders.

Eternal masters might be a stepping stone to a potential Reserve List abolishment in some distant future.  If they print things in a Modern Masters style format, nobody is going to lose their shirt, and some cards may keep going up anyways.  I suspect the original artwork/framed cards will be valuable as long as the game endures.  As a person who started in Ice Age/4th Ed, I know I have a complete and utter disdain for the card border changes.  The new artwork direction is also utter crap.  I will forever crave original printings. 

I hope this puts our argument in some perspective.  I submit we need to stop worrying about the Reserve List and start coming up with ways to entice Wizards with a sustainable form of money from our community. 
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« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2016, 12:15:58 pm »

Geez, this conversation got really weird really fast.  Okay, pull up a chair, youngsters.

As you know, the Reserve List was established in reaction to Chronicles making people crap their pants about the value of Carrion Ants going down.  For awhile, the stated policy of the Reserve List allowed them to print "premium" versions of cards on the list.  So, they reprinted Mox Diamond, Memory Jar, and others in foil premium products.  Then they printed Phyrexian Negator in a supplemental product, and someone unloaded their dump truck into their drawers again.  Wizards took notice, and revised the policy so that now no paper printing legal in sanctioned events could EVER be printed.  They called it "closing the premium loophole."

But wait, there's more.  Wizards has also experimented a bit with how close they can get to printing cards on the Reserve List without technically violating it, culminating in Reverberate, which is Fork without the color-changing clause.  Apparently someone still had a bit of a sloppy fart over this, because someone (I think it was Rosewater?) made a statement in response about how they felt this card was too close to violating the "spirit" of the Reserve List even though it technically did not.  

So, where does that leave us?  Well, first off, someone out there still has trouble controlling their bowel movements, and when Wizards tinkers with the Reserve List, they soil themselves.  Lord knows who, but from the smell, someone is definitely reacting and talking to them, threatening perhaps even, each time they mess around with the List.  

As long as WotC thinks there is SOME POSSIBILITY of litigation or negative press associated with abolishing the Reserve List,  they won't do it.  Why would they?  They're printing money hand over fist as it is, and if they really wanted to save Eternal Formats, there is nothing at all stopping them.  They've been quietly printing cards that replace / substitute for / compete with Reserve List staples for a long time, and that trend will continue.  So, if you want to see Vintage and Legacy grow, push Wizards to do what they're doing - print cards for Eternal.  Eventually we'll get a dual land that is situationally better / worse than a Revised Dual, and then that barrier to entry will be gone.  Same can be done for the Power Nine - hell, they try reprinting them ALL THE TIME.  Remember Days Undoing?  

Focus your attention on new cards to save Eternal.  Not abolishing the Reserve List.  And, while you do, try to ignore the smell.

EDIT: Whooaaa... I somehow missed this page of the thread.  I blame the site migration.  Oh well, perhaps I should add to the conversation that's ACTUALLY HAPPENING...

An illusory promise is basically “if I feel like it.”  For example, “I’ll give you ten dollars if I feel like it.”  In our case, Wizards promise could be interpreted to say “We won’t reprint these cards if we feel like it.”  That is the effect that no consideration has on promises.  We have to take it on good faith that Wizards intends to honor it. 

I could keep analyzing this, and in fact this is just one opinion on this specific promise.  I’m sure Hasbro lawyers have obviously seen things as a worst-case scenario which is why the “promise” was tightened in 2010.  I think our real problem at Wizards is Type 2 and their business model.

Yeah, as you acknowledge, all of these points are wonderful things for the lawyers to argue about.  But you know what?  SOMEONE is apparently out there ready to have that fight if Wizards abolishes the Reserve List, and having that fight is expensive.  So, why bother?

I hope this puts our argument in some perspective.  I submit we need to stop worrying about the Reserve List and start coming up with ways to entice Wizards with a sustainable form of money from our community. 

Exactly.  You've got three options, really:

1. Abolish the Reserve List - Not going to happen.
2. Ban the Reserve List - This is only the answer if the question is, "How can we more quickly kill Legacy and Vintage?"

Which leaves us with:

3. Print cards that replace or compete with Reserve list cards.

And Wizards is ACTUALLY DOING JUST THIS.  Look at how deep into Eternal formats new cards are penetrating nowadays.  The penetration is real.  Just cool your heels, cheer on products like Conspiracy and Commander, and wait for the problem to resolve.  Because it is resolving!
« Last Edit: February 26, 2016, 12:21:15 pm by MaximumCDawg » Logged
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« Reply #45 on: February 26, 2016, 05:33:04 pm »

I would say the vast majority of the reserved list has already been obsolesced in this way.  Almost every effect you can find on their has a strictly better equivalent that has been printed since.  The ones that haven't yet are the ones that are expensive.  There are a few that are simply not good enough to see play due to normal power creep not directly related to their uniqueness.  Things used to be more expensive to cast in general and so cards printed back then are often over costed and thus no longer strategically sound.  Most standard playables have built in black lotuses, comparatively speaking, by the cost standards of yesteryear.  Tarmogoyf was on of the most obvious example of this but there are lots of others.
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« Reply #46 on: February 26, 2016, 06:08:40 pm »

I think buy outs on reserved list cards are pretty horrible for the game aspect of magic.  The cheapest competitive non proxy vintage deck is around 4000 dollars, dredge.  Then it goes up dramatically from there.  Even budget decks are expensive now with the recent buy out of Null Rod.  I guess if all you care about is the value of your own cards it would be fine in your mind, but I am a Vintage player not a Vintage collector.

I hope that in the future TOs can start to adopt a policy of allowing all reserved list cards to be proxied, and all non-reserved list cards to be real instead of just simple number, like 10 or 15.  This would reduce the barrier of entry significantly, and might even boost sales as players will now be buying some of the non-reserved list cards they had been proxying.
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« Reply #47 on: February 26, 2016, 06:17:02 pm »

I'd really prefer it if people didn't call the price increase in null rod a "buyout" and instead refer to it as a "price correction" that better reflects current and future demand for the card.

I think the term "buyout" should only be used in reference to people who try to corner the market on a card and then try to manipulate the price.  "Price correction" however is what happens naturally when speculators see and take an opportunity to make money because a card is underpriced due to its future demand. 

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« Reply #48 on: February 26, 2016, 06:17:28 pm »

I hope that in the future TOs can start to adopt a policy of allowing all reserved list cards to be proxied, and all non-reserved list cards to be real instead of just simple number, like 10 or 15.  This would reduce the barrier of entry significantly, and might even boost sales as players will now be buying some of the non-reserved list cards they had been proxying.

That's a super neat idea. I'm going to bring that up at our LGS, where vintage has successfully fired 0 times since we started hosting it :/

On the subject of card availability, as of noon today (Friday), there were a grand total of only six Mishra's Workshops on the floor at GP Houston (which is now five. Yay me!). There was also much less power in cases than I usually see at GPs.
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« Reply #49 on: February 26, 2016, 06:27:55 pm »

I'd really prefer it if people didn't call the price increase in null rod a "buyout" and instead refer to it as a "price correction" that better reflects current and future demand for the card.

I think the term "buyout" should only be used in reference to people who try to corner the market on a card and then try to manipulate the price.  "Price correction" however is what happens naturally when speculators see and take an opportunity to make money because a card is underpriced due to its future demand.  

The price was steady at $10-$15 for over 5 years.  Then with basically no major increase in play it sky rockets to over 5 times that price in one day then dips back down?  Yeah that's the definition of a buy out.  Every reasonably priced Null Rod on the market was sold in a couple days time.
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« Reply #50 on: February 26, 2016, 06:29:04 pm »

And now we have a masters set every year.  Sure it looks like slippery slope fallacy, but it's a reality.  Give the players what they want, then they demand more.  Sell the cards at 3x what you sell normal packs for and the Board of Hasbro wants more.  

I took a logic class in college, I know all the "fallacies" you are evoking.  Believe it or not, because something is fallacious that doesn't make the statement WRONG.  It simply makes it fallacious.  

1) We have a Modern Masters set every other year and what has it done to prices? What has it done to collectability? In able to justify the price hike on the packs, the product they are selling must retain value. Your assertion that we are on a slippery slope to dollar Moxen without the reserve list is not supported by what we've seen with either of the Modern Masters sets.

2) Yes, fallacies are errors in logic - they do not make the premise false OR true and therefore lend no support to the statement. If a statement is RIGHT, you should be able to support it without making fallacious arguments. Saying "just because something is fallacious doesn't make it wrong" is a deflection as you should be the one constructing your own valid arguments for your position, which you have largely failed to do. And if you read my responses, I don't just say something is fallacious and leave it at that: in the above case, for instance, I used Modern Masters as an example of a reprint that did not significantly hurt the price and collectabiliity of cards, thus suggesting there is no slippery slope.

I am willing to accept your position on the Reserved list. I just would like you to actually make valid arguments for your position.
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« Reply #51 on: February 26, 2016, 06:34:26 pm »

I think buy outs on reserved list cards are pretty horrible for the game aspect of magic.  The cheapest competitive non proxy vintage deck is around 4000 dollars, dredge.  Then it goes up dramatically from there.  Even budget decks are expensive now with the recent buy out of Null Rod.  I guess if all you care about is the value of your own cards it would be fine in your mind, but I am a Vintage player not a Vintage collector.

I hope that in the future TOs can start to adopt a policy of allowing all reserved list cards to be proxied, and all non-reserved list cards to be real instead of just simple number, like 10 or 15.  This would reduce the barrier of entry significantly, and might even boost sales as players will now be buying some of the non-reserved list cards they had been proxying.

Only issue with that is it's a bit unfair to those who own Power but don't happen to own chase Standard Mythics (for instance, those that didn't preorder their sets of Jace, Vryn's Prodigy). I think a more equitable solution would be to relax the proxy limit or unbound the proxy ceiling, such as 15 proxies with an indefinite number more for $1 each.
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« Reply #52 on: February 26, 2016, 07:41:30 pm »

I'd really prefer it if people didn't call the price increase in null rod a "buyout" and instead refer to it as a "price correction" that better reflects current and future demand for the card.

I think the term "buyout" should only be used in reference to people who try to corner the market on a card and then try to manipulate the price.  "Price correction" however is what happens naturally when speculators see and take an opportunity to make money because a card is underpriced due to its future demand. 



This is the usual wrangling over language we see all the time.   One side calls a sudden spike a "buyout," and the other side calls it a "correction."

The fact is, theres a measurable difference between the slow and steady growth of playable cards over time, and the rocket ship to Mars blasting off that we've seen in cards like null rod.  The latter is absolutely the result of the highly liquid Magic market, where people can and do bet huge amounts of money that the market can bear a higher price.  They make this bet by buying all the copies of a card readily available online, and then wait and see where the price settles.

This is a brutal and effective way to find out the maximum the market can possibly bear for a card.  If you think Magic prices are correct when they are as high as dealers can possibly charge and still move inventory, then you see it ad a price correction.  But make no mistake;  it's a buyout leading the charge, not just players steadily out bidding each other on eBay.
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« Reply #53 on: February 26, 2016, 07:57:36 pm »

I hope that in the future TOs can start to adopt a policy of allowing all reserved list cards to be proxied, and all non-reserved list cards to be real instead of just simple number, like 10 or 15.  This would reduce the barrier of entry significantly, and might even boost sales as players will now be buying some of the non-reserved list cards they had been proxying.

That's a super neat idea. I'm going to bring that up at our LGS, where vintage has successfully fired 0 times since we started hosting it :/
Super neat indeed.
I think buy outs on reserved list cards are pretty horrible for the game aspect of magic.  The cheapest competitive non proxy vintage deck is around 4000 dollars, dredge.  Then it goes up dramatically from there.  Even budget decks are expensive now with the recent buy out of Null Rod.  I guess if all you care about is the value of your own cards it would be fine in your mind, but I am a Vintage player not a Vintage collector.

I hope that in the future TOs can start to adopt a policy of allowing all reserved list cards to be proxied, and all non-reserved list cards to be real instead of just simple number, like 10 or 15.  This would reduce the barrier of entry significantly, and might even boost sales as players will now be buying some of the non-reserved list cards they had been proxying.

Only issue with that is it's a bit unfair to those who own Power but don't happen to own chase Standard Mythics (for instance, those that didn't preorder their sets of Jace, Vryn's Prodigy). I think a more equitable solution would be to relax the proxy limit or unbound the proxy ceiling, such as 15 proxies with an indefinite number more for $1 each.
That's just a matter of perspective I suppose.  I'd expect Wizards' perspective on the matter to be that people buying chase standard cards to play Vintage is a very good thing for them.  Wizards' could completely bypass their promise to not print cards on their reserved list by publicly supporting players in creating proxies"play-test cards" (from the reserved list specifically) to play with their Eternal Masters singles that they pulled from packs fresh of the presses.  With reserved list cards being legal to proxy it would open the gates all the way to anyone wanting to play Vintage or Legacy.  It would have the same barrier to entry as modern at the very worst but more likely it would be much less expensive to buy into than modern currently is due to the size of the card pool and the potential for deck diversity.  Of course once mtgfinance clues in everything will get bought out but whatever.  I would honestly just laugh at people spending thousands to try to buy out cards that most of the Vintage community already have.  Buying out the vintage card pool would be quite a bit harder than buying out the modern card pool.  It's much bigger.  I suspect many speculators are about to have their bubble burst by the end of the year and be left with stacks of bulk and a sizable credit card bill if things continue as they have.  

I think this is a very interesting idea for all involved and could really take off.  I don't see any way that Wizard's could be sued for what players and TO's do at their own events and venues.  Worst case scenario is that Wizards has to release a statement to portray that they don't condone the use of proxies at supported events and venues (already happened) but there's no way that it can hurt Wizards' if people just go ahead and adopt this policy going forward.  The bad news is a bunch of prospectors dangling power in front of people to extort them for playing the game they love would be out some capitol that they risked but it's their own fault really.  They got greedy and players not being able to afford reserved list cards is the consequence.  Following that people will stop playing one way or the other and the bubble bursts.  Vintage staples have pretty well hit their ceiling at this point.  
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« Reply #54 on: February 26, 2016, 08:37:22 pm »

Back in the day the printed some gold bordered tournament winning decks. FFG is printing the Netrunner world champion's decks with extended art. What would be awesome is if Wizards printed gold bordered Vintage champ decks that are "not legal for tournament play". Hell they could have different backs that would require opaque deck sleeves for all I care.

I've got a bunch of unhinged singles sitting in a box. I'm tempted to acetone them and make some decent proxies for our local store.
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« Reply #55 on: February 26, 2016, 11:10:11 pm »

But in all honesty, I wouldn't play this game if the cards weren't rare.  They say Rome wasn't built in a day.  I've been building my Magic card collection for 22 years.  I'm sorry that someone who just discovers the game feels like they can't buy 40 dual lands and a set of power 9 out of the gate.  Money is not the only component in having a magic collection, time is.  TIME.  There is no short cutting time.

While I have a lot of thoughts on the variety of important topics presented in this thread, I wasn't sure if I was going to ultimately be able to organize my thoughts and meaningfully contribute to the thread. After having read this specific opinion of yours, gkraigher, I decided to chime in. I feel that your statement is very shortsighted, especially in 2016. Money, to me, is unquestionably the only component involved in assembling a Magic card collection. I mean, sure, time plays some role: a busy person might need a month to find the time to round up every card they need instead of a week, but that's about as far as "time" goes these days. If I were forced to come up with a second component involved in Magic outside of "money," I suppose I'd offer that "connections" and "contacts" are also somewhat important, but that all really pales in comparison to the financial aspect of Magic in 2016. For everybody's amusement, I've included a few Cardboard Crack snippets that really capture a lot of important issues going on with Magic right now.



You have put a lot of emphasis on time, gkraigher, but I don't know why. Everything is readily available now. Cards aren't "rare." There is no hunt anymore. Time doesn't need to be a factor; it's a factor due to compromise. In 2016, the Internet instantaneously provides people with a way to purchase every card they need to play. In fact, the only time-consuming activity these days is hunting for a bargain, which, of course, relates back to the dominating financial aspect. I can go on eBay and buy everything from a full set of Alpha power to Oath of the Gatewatch basic lands. It's all there — I just have to decide if I can afford it.



Let me take a moment to agree with you, though: Time IS a huge factor in 2016, but only because of the money aspect. Therefore, I would say that the main culprit is money and finance; everything else stems from it. Time only leads to cards becoming more expensive. Why wait to buy that Mishra's Workshop? Unless things dramatically change, the card is only going to become more expensive as time goes on. The best time to act is now, unless you don't have access to the ludicrous and unfair prices that cards command now. Magic is big bucks now. Null Rod, thanks to the community, has now been added to a list of cards that a newcomer with modest funds won't even consider acquiring. People (outside of the very wealthy) are being priced out from participating.

Back in 1999 and 2000, I was 12 and 13 years old. I wasn't able to use the Internet to buy Magic cards. I also didn't really know many people who played Magic outside of the 30-40 locals who frequented the two stores in my general vicinity. Back then, your emphasis on time was certainly appropriate. Even if I had saved enough money for a card, it might take a while to logistically acquire it. Back then, it sometimes took me weeks to track down the cards I needed. Mark's Comics didn't always have cards like Rishadan Port and Tangle Wire in stock. I couldn't easily travel to nominal stores like Neutral Ground. If locals weren't trading the cards I needed, how could I acquire them? It took a lot of dedication. Looking back, the hunt and journey to find a card to play with was something fun at the time, though I'm glad I don't have to partake in it now.



Forming a Magic collection is sadly all about money. I'd say that this is inarguable. If I have the financial means, what's to stop me from going on easily accessible websites, such as StarCityGames or eBay, and just buying everything I need? Why wait? The only answer would be pausing to consider my finances. It might take a few moments of research, but I could theoretically purchase 40 Revised dual lands right now. Heck, I could purchase 40 Beta dual lands (if I had the financial means) in one afternoon's worth of clicking. It's all there. It's all accessible. What "time" aspect is involved nowadays? 2016 isn't 1998. It's easy now. Magic is all about money. From comments like "I only draft sets with money cards" to "Modern is way too expensive to play," it's just about all anybody talks about. I've even seen players bragging about getting a $5 card for $3. Finance has simply become the accepted and expected culture of this game; I'm unfortunately guilty of it, too. (This concept is actually something that drove me away from the game for a good portion of 2015. The stress and fear mongering of Magic finance really takes away from my enjoyment of the game.)

If we're talking about commodities such as original art, misprints, sealed product, and artist proofs, then sure, the time aspect and the "hunt" of it all is something very real, but we're not. Nobody here is talking about that. We're talking about acquiring just the bare necessities to play the game. In general, this forum (as a whole) isn't concerned with pimping and collecting; strategy and game enjoyment trumps aesthetics, pimping, and finance. An Alpha Underground Sea is a cool, special, and "elite" thing. In my eyes, the lowest rank of Underground Sea on the figurative "food chain of pimping" shouldn't cost $1,000 per playset. I made a big statement about this over two years ago. Look at how things have spiraled out of control since January 2014. I'm not saying that everybody should have the ability to own every card instantaneously, but I don't think that looking to play Vintage should cause somebody serious financial duress and contemplation.



Higher prices don't just benefit my pocketbook, they benefit the community by naturally removing the players who don't care and who aren't fully committed to the game.

Your opinion on this really shocks me. Can you elaborate on why you feel this way?
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« Reply #56 on: February 27, 2016, 12:31:12 am »

I agree with Greg, and I find the sentiment he quotes from gkraigher at the end of his post abhorrent and a terrible thing to say as a member of the Vintage community.   At best,  it ignores the reality that perfect liquidity and perfect information allow prices to reach their maximum possible value faster than ever before.   At worst,  it's a self destructive, elitist attitude that discourages the growth of the format and will be cited by those who don't play it to prove we're all buttheads.
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« Reply #57 on: February 27, 2016, 12:39:39 am »

Greg,

Very amazing post and I'm glad my opinions on this matter have evoked such a thought provoking discussion on the Reserve List.

I still think time is a component of the game that new players overlook.  Cards are consistently become more and more powerful.  If a brand new player decided to commit the time to a bi-weekly booster draft, that's 26 in a year at a price of $30 a month, for the next 10 years, I guarantee that player, if they trade wisely (another time commitment) and bulk out everything, that player could have any vintage deck he or she would want.  If they stayed focused on the goal.  Look at some of the sets you would have drafted in that time frame:  Zendikar, Worldwake, Rise of the Eldrazi, Lorwyn, Modern Masters 1 & 2, Future Sight, Oath of the Gatewatch (this set will be legendary one day). 

Like you, I have been playing for many years.  I agree that I can go and click and buy a bunch of cards on the internet with money, but I amassed my collection by slowing spending, trading wisely, and playing the game for 22 years.  The 10 years I'm suggesting a new player would have to invest isn't even 1/2 of the time I have invested in the game.  I didn't get the collection I currently have in a day, it's taken 2/3s of my lifetime.  I started at 10 and I'm 32 today.  

You cannot short cut this devotion to a hobby.  

And that is ultimately why I welcome higher prices.  Higher prices on cards give players who have invested time and money, growing the game to what it currently is, a reward for their efforts.   It makes it easier for us to travel to events, because I can now cover the cost of hotel and travel to Eternal Weekend by selling 6 Null Rods.  The hobby has paid for itself at this point.  And since the game only continues to grow in popularity, I see myself reaping future dividends from my collection as well.

But it's not just that, I honestly believe that higher prices force the people who own the cards to show up to the big tournaments.  It basically becomes an ultimatum to people.  Why do I own a set of power if I don't go to Eternal Weekend?  I should either go, or I should sell it to someone else who actually will go.  That's why I think Vintage Championships has grown almost every year since it was introduced.  Well, I should take that back because the Vintage Championships had been stagnant for many years in attendance from 2007-2011, along with the price of power, and it wasn't until prices started creeping up that attendance also increased at the event (**I would love another historian of the game step in and simply back up this point, you don't have to agree with me, but please vouch that this is indeed correct**).  Higher prices have only benefited the Vintage community, in my honest opinion.  

Quote
I agree with Greg, and I find the sentiment he quotes from gkraigher at the end of his post abhorrent and a terrible thing to say as a member of the Vintage community

You are putting words in his mouth, as Greg took a much more measured and less confrontational approach to what I was saying.  You are certainly entitled to your opinions on the matter, but I don't see how anything I am saying is abhorrent and terrible towards the community.  Because, quite frankly, it isn't.  

Unpopular, unique, different are terms I'd accept.  
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« Reply #58 on: February 27, 2016, 10:23:53 am »

I don't know if it's unpopular or unique.  But I do have a pretty good idea how people outside the format looking in will view someone who equates their unwillingness to spend $20,0000 on Magic cards as not being dedicated enough to have a place in the community. It's not a good reaction, man. We want to grow the community, not tell people they are not good enough to join us.

So, yeah, abhorrent.  Sad

EDIT: Also, I don't think your suggestion of someone pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps using drafts is realistic anymore.   I see very little trading happening in my local stores anymore.  Assuming you did dump 23 on a draft, you're only spending about 280 or so a year, which is 2800 in ten years.   That's no where near a Vintage deck, and trading can't make up the additional slack.  Not anymore.

« Last Edit: February 27, 2016, 10:29:40 am by MaximumCDawg » Logged
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« Reply #59 on: February 27, 2016, 11:19:34 am »

I play Vintage every day. I've published an article, mostly about vintage, every week for over a year.  I have several decks, and I've tried almost every deck in the format.

The thing is that if I sold my entire collection, which is all on mtgo, I don't think I could buy even one piece of power with that money. I'd love to play paper vintage but it is far too expensive. Maybe I could make a proxy tournament some day but I don't know. I don't think anyone can really question my dedication to Vintage, but I'm still an outsider to some.

None of that feels right to me. And the number of people who laugh of my articles because they think vintage is too expensive is truly staggering. Nothing will kill a format faster than not having players.
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Check out my articles @ www.mtggoldfish.com  www.puremtgo.com Follow me on Twitter: @josephfiorinijr - Watch me make EPIC PUNTS on Twitch.TV @ http://www.twitch.tv/josephfiorini06

Just like a car crash,
Just like a knife.
My favorite weapon
is the look in your eyes.
You've run out of lies...
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