Ankh Sligh

[Rane]

At lest you have a good argument.

You dont have to hold on to them.  But if you draw them with 4 land out, hold on to them so your opponent doesnt see it coming.  

Pyrite Spellbomb doesnt give you mana early game.  Thats why its worse.  If you are running this deck, do you REALLY care about taking 2-5 damage off a ring?  Probably not.

Or you could maindeck cards that will help you beat control and combo (Null Rod, Shaman, Blood Moon) and not worry about looking fancy with your Isochron Scepter.

This deck is for a diverse, powered metagame, with people who know how to play there decks.  A 'real' T1 meta, you might say.  If your going to the local weekly T1 and you know what to expect, then obviously you tweak your deck accordingly.

Your argument is fundamentally flawed.  If Ring takes a non land slot, you would never need to cast it for mana early, so you wouldn't bother laying it down.  You would hold it for a 'surprise' 2 dmg.  In this case Pyrite Spellbomb is better.  If it takes a land slot, then you HAVE to put it down when you draw it and it will deal you about 3-6 dmg.  In the mirror this is TERRIBLE, and just for a late game 2 dmg against control.  In this case Mishra's Factory is better.  Barbarian Rings have not been used in competitive T1 for a while for these reasons.

As fro your excuse why you can't predict a diverse balanced metagame, you are wrong.  That simply.  ANY metagame can be predicted.  It's called research, scouting, and playtesting.  You are obviously the type of person who if enters a Tourney just walks in with his deck.  The people that win are the ones that find out what the metagmae will be, see what decks people are playing around with and tinkering, and then do what I listed.  Game 1 decides most matchups.  If you lose game 1 because of a bad matchup, you have to go 2-for-0 so your SB better be really good.  Making sure you have as few game 1 losses is important.  Aside from this, it just makes creating a decklist easier.  For a small example but simple one; 'You know that Sceptre has to go SB or out because you have Null Rod MD'.  Also if you MD Null Rod, then Blood Moon will not be a SB card as it is often effective against the same decks, so you SB a card that is better in a different matchup to take out Blood Moon... and so it goes on.

And your shot at calling Sceptre fancy is just sad.  It's not fancy, it's good.  I personally prefer scroll but it depends on the deck.  Ancestral on a stick is fancy.  Shrapnel Blast or PoP is not fancy, it's killer.

[Rane]

right Rane, WoF is bad, mk. cards are bad...we dont want cards. seven cards for three mana is not what we want.................your point taken seriously trust me. however, i still think WoF wins me games, as it has a few times.

as for the lotus. i tested it back in the deck and it kicks ass. one nice game was 1st turn: waste, lotus, ankh, pups, charge....mmm, now why was i afraid to play lotus? im determined to play it until they print something better.

META:

decks i seen played in these here parts (+ for lots, = for little, - not so much)

+slaver
-stax
=keeper
-tog
+dragon, richard grrrrrrr
=TnT
+MUD
-gobbo sligh
-reanimator
-suicide
=landstill/fish
-trix
-madness
+various scrubby decks at various times in various amounts. the ones that get 0/8 and stuff...usu aggro
must be missing something, but thats what ive seen.

people play mostly MUD or artifact galore, stax, welder, tangle wire, workshop, all the card you just want to ban from magic forever....well at least when you play them.

my SB was designed to play mostly those decks. R+R is hot against most of my meta so it goes in right away, but it would be useless against kepper as opposed to pillage which is always useful.

i really dont have a problem with WW or any white at all. cept them damn CoPs. lets imagine my Sb is empty. i know id add the R+R. i have PoP and BEB ready to go in, but thinking about my meta, may not need the BEB so much...unless i do face kepper.
tormods crypt can go in, but how many. dragon is now my enemy, because Sytupal has turned to the dark side and is playing it and there have also been other players playing dragon in my area. grrrrr.
options for SB:
PoP
BEB
crypt
R+R
thats all i can think about for now...

give me your best ideas based on my meta. thanks for the help

peace

You really aren't listening to what I'm saying.  Stating 'seven cards for three mana is not what we want' is arrogant and childish.  I'm telling you that those 7 cards don't matter cause your dead before you can cast em.  When you play those Dragon/Goblin/Slaver/Keeper decks you WILL notice this (provided they are ghood builds piloted by experienced players.)  But I'm not going to try and convince you any further as you clearly can't see that.  Do what you want and after a while you'll come around.

Lotus is the same.  GREAT first turn, ok second, after that it's just shit.  Sligh NEVER WANTS A DEAD DRAW EVER.  Again I'm not going to bother anymore.  After some matchups of screaming for a Top-Deck Bolt and drawing Lotus you'll see what I'm talking about.  It's the same for all the others I spoke about.  You DONT'T want to see Chrome Mox as you 20th draw.

As for you deck it seems it would be best to gear it toward Stax/MUD matchups, as well as a bit towards Keeprr and Dragon.   Then let your SB handle the rest.  With that we move on to card analysis.

Lightning Bolt - The best burn, actually worse than Reckless Charge in your meta lol, but should still easily make the cut MD.
Chain Lightning - If it doesn't fit maybe retire to SB for matchnups against Goblin/Madness/Landstill/Fish/other aggro.
Incinerate - If it doesn't fit maybe retire to SB for matchnups against Goblin/Madness/Landstill/Fish/other aggro.
Price of Progress - GREAT finisher against these decks.  Can squeek out the needed damage.  One of the 1,2,3! finisher group.
Fireblast - GREAT finisher against these decks.  Can squeek out the needed damage.  One of the 1,2,3! finisher group.
Shrapnel Blast - GREAT finisher against these decks.  Can squeek out the needed damage.  One of the 1,2,3! finisher group.
Jackal Pup - Good Beatdown creature.
Goblin Cadets - Good beatdown creature.  Worse than Pup here.
Slith Firewalker - Only really good vs Keeper. Even then a bit slow.
Mogg Fanatic - VERY underrated card.  Can go 2f1 vs Goblins, Fish, Landstill, Madness, Sui and other random aggro.  Can take out welders .
Gorilla Shaman - EXCELLENT in your meta.  Works against so many things, namely Keeper, Tog, Stax.
Grim Lavamancer - You may not like it but vs Stax and Keeper it is TECH.  Can take out all those little soldiers and blow up Welders
Ankh of Mishra - lol like this is going anywhere
Null Rod - PERFECT MD card.  Great against Stax/Mud/Slaver and also against Keeper.
Cursed Scroll - Great card but Rod superceeds it.
Isochron Sceptre - Great card but Rod superceds it.
Blood Moon - Great against SO many decks in your meta
Scald - Only really good vs Keeper and Fish
Reckless Charge - Excellent card here.  Can give you the boost in speed you needda gaints these lockdown decks.
Pillage - PERFECT MD card.  Great against Stax/Mud/Slaver and also against Keeper.  Bonus kills Karn and 'Core.
Wasteland - Great in so many matchups
Strip Mine - Great in so many matchups
Rack and Ruin - Not great overrall but against Stax TECH
Tormod's Crypt - Your saviour against Dragon
ReB - Can help in the counter war vs Keeper.  Kills Tog .  Also helps against Lanstill and Fish.

Aside:  PoP, Shrapnel Blast, Fireblast are personally nicknamed the 1,2,3! trio by myself and no one else (that I know of).  It's just a small little thing that has done the most BS dmg I've ever pulled out with Sligh.  Even at high level play no one can see coming let alone try to stop 9 to X dmg.  I've done over 50 dmg with these three against Keeper.  Seeing as how Monkey ate his Orb he wasn't at all happy .

With that little list I leave you to ponder a bit about how your deck will look.  I'll try to come up with a decklist some other time.

[Razer51]

As fro your excuse why you can't predict a diverse balanced metagame, you are wrong.  That simply.  ANY metagame can be predicted.  It's called research, scouting, and playtesting.  You are obviously the type of person who if enters a Tourney just walks in with his deck.  The people that win are the ones that find out what the metagmae will be, see what decks people are playing around with and tinkering, and then do what I listed.  Game 1 decides most matchups.  If you lose game 1 because of a bad matchup, you have to go 2-for-0 so your SB better be really good.  Making sure you have as few game 1 losses is important.      

Actually.....Im the type of person that walks in to random environments, and walks out with either a T8 or a win.  90% of the time.

Id really love to see you predict what the metagame will be like at oh, say, GenCon Indy this year.  

Im done with this thread since you insist on spamming it with your half cocked, untested in a real environment theories.

C

[Puschkin]

I am interested in how Rane is able to do"research and scouting" and rate the "the type of person who if enters a Tourney just walks in with his deck"   You cannot predict randomness. And you cannot predict how the others will metagame - or if they will metagame at all!

About the thread:
Please try it with arguments and if that fails, either leave the trhead or move on but do not start fighting. This thread has reached its critical 3-page-mark and is about to close itself.

[Fëanor]

okay, thanks for the heads up.

now in light of this mod post, i would still like to see any feedback, just keep past conflicts out of it. no need restating what has already been said. ive determined a starter SB, based on what i know about my meta, tell me what you think. and keep your ideas focussed on my meta description above...

SB:
Tormod's Crypt (dragon)
Blue Elemental Blast (keeper, tog)
Rack and Ruin (MUD, Stax, etc.)
Blood Moon  (non-biasic stuff, landstill)
Price of Progress (non-basic crazyness)
flaring pain (CoP: Red)

peace

[Yttric Ventus]

Here's what I would do, I think it's pretty balanced.

3x Tormod's Crypt
4x Blood Moon
4x Rack and Ruin
4x Red Elemental Blast

[Fëanor]

hey looks good. should i try to MD PoP then? and if so over what?

[Yttric Ventus]

I would use it over Reckless Charge. Also, if you didn't know, Blood Moon turns nonbasic lands into nonbasic Mountains, so PoP would still do damage.

[Fëanor]

that bloodmoon thing i did know. the reason why i took out the PoP was because i found that id rather just get rid of the non-basic than PoP it. maybe bloodmoon would negate the need for using the waste at all, and just mooning my opponent to PoP him......um dont pervert please... :shock:

this still makes me wonder how useful they would be MD without bloodmoon. i dont think putting the bloodmoon MD would be a good idea, mostly because i dont think i have space.

because of the consequenses above, im not sure if Price of Progress would actually work here. i deal two damage for each non-basic, and it usually ends up to be no more than six damage, usually less. when i face non-basics i tend to want to get rid of them. maybe the good idea is to decrease Waste count and put the moons and PoP MD so i can deal more damage. if that plan works, i would take out the charge easily, but the charge can usually deal out the same amount of damage as well, so...ill try both and report back my conclusion

thanks for the help

peace

[Sytupal]

The wastelands are a huge bonus.  They are by far a must.  However, Price of Progress is also a very huge threat.  You're playing monored,   6 damage off one spell for 2 mana is better than anything i can think of.  The wastes take out key targets, such as mana screwing one color for your opponent etc.   It's not necessarily there to take out ALL of their nonbasics.  

Sometimes if they are playing rather slow and have no flow at all due to a single color screwage, its good to keep a waste in hand without making them aware, giving you an unseen advantage.  When playing dragon it's always good to keep a waste rather then hastely blowing it on a dual.  Obviously the bazaars are targets.    Having all of this said I'll go back to my original point.  

Wastelands, Bloodmoons, and Price of Progress' do not counteract each other.  

Wastelands and bloodmoons accomplish a similar task if ether of them are out in play.  Bloodmoons generally do it better depending on the metagame.  



Price of Progress without a doubt is a finisher spell and should not be overlooked.  Against most decks out there right now including dragon, GAT, Keeper, as well as landstill and others, Price of Progress is that clincher instant spell at your opponents eot.    With the rise of Aggro and/or aggro control maybe they don't deserve maindeck slots, however i still think Bloodmoon deserves maindeck slots anywhere.  a potential first turn or second turn drop with 5 proxy is nuts.   you only have 5 3cc drops anyways.  Decks need to level out again and not have jumps in their Manacurve, even with all the cards out now.

I hate to say it, cus chain is just so cool, but Incinerate over Chain Lightning?  Besides giving you a 2cc spell its also an instant,  the one extra mana may be worth the sorcery to instant change.  I guess that may just be me.   The Charges seem a little unecessary.  You're hitting them with enough and some more stabilizing cards may be better in that slot.

[Rapalaman1]

I think Razer has something going with his build of the deck. I play almost the exact same thing. I think that his build is awesome because it's geared towards all the tier 1 decks that are winning all the tourneys. Most tier one decks can not handle md blood moon and null rod these days. All type one decks play some combination of moxes, duals, fetches, and the good ones play mishra's workshop. Why not have a main deck answer to all that? I've never been too fond of either the scroll or the scepter, they've both proven to be a little slow for my tastes. Granted some people would argue the exact opposite, but I think that with EVERY deck packing artifact hate somehow, scroll and scepter are really bad in almost any T1 meta theses days.
And also, I really don't see why you would not play brb ring. It's soo good and granted at times it can do 3-5 points of damage tops, if you don't kill them by the time you take that much damage, ur going ot lose anyways.

[Fëanor]

AGH! Sytupal i cant possibly put in incinerate over chain. the fact that its an instant makes little difference if i end up playing it early. and the whole i dea of the 3 for one is so that i can take as little time to get my opponent into ankh zone. if i play chain 1st turn and incinerate second, 6 damage...
if i play chain 1st turn, then bolt + chain second, 9 damage....hm????

@rapalaman1: point taken...blood moon maindeck. but what to take out, ill have to do some fiddling.

also im not sure whether i nec. need four of each: PoP, Moon, Rod, since the latter two become dead after the 1st one is played, and the former, well there just isnt a space for it. ill see if i can fit a new decklist on this thread next time, but im off to a tourney right now, thanks for the comments

peace

[lilmidget]

AGH! Sytupal i cant possibly put in incinerate over chain. the fact that its an instant makes little difference if i end up playing it early. and the whole i dea of the 3 for one is so that i can take as little time to get my opponent into ankh zone. if i play chain 1st turn and incinerate second, 6 damage...
if i play chain 1st turn, then bolt + chain second, 9 damage....hm????

@rapalaman1: point taken...blood moon maindeck. but what to take out, ill have to do some fiddling.

also im not sure whether i nec. need four of each: PoP, Moon, Rod, since the latter two become dead after the 1st one is played, and the former, well there just isnt a space for it. ill see if i can fit a new decklist on this thread next time, but im off to a tourney right now, thanks for the comments

peace

you have to play incinerate over chain. it has the ability to be played over a tangle wire, something that is very important when you play against MUD. plus those few decks that run some form of red mana (mox ruby, volcanic island, etc.) can easily send it back to you. nothing is worse than having your jackal pup burned by your own spell. plus it will also help against any pesky regenerators out there (though this ability will be the least amazing).

4 PoPs are a must. type 1 is filled with nonbasics with some decks even running all nonbasics. even playing it on turn 2 will net you at least 4 damage. there is no greater burn spell to ever exist in type 1.

i suggest you don't run 4 blood moons if you don't have room. the wastelands can take care of the nonbasics until you draw a blood moon. for null rods, it depends a lot on you. if you see a lot of power, mask, powder kegs, masticores, metalworkers, karn, or isochron scepters, then you should play 4. if you don't, play 2 or 3.

[Fëanor]

@lilmidget: wow veeeeeeeery good point. incinerate is just better against almost all T1 decks.

so decklist time: TIKI's wonderfull and unbelievably powerful and broken and other cool stuff deck of ankh sligh badness that can only be made by such an advanced and ingenius player such as tiki himself, with the help of a few buddies from TMD:

//0cc
R black lotus
R mox ruby
//1cc
4 lightning bolt
3 mox munky
4 jackal pup
//2cc
4 PoP
4 incinerate
4 ankh of mishra
3 null rod
//3cc
4 pillage
4 blood moon
//free or 6cc
3 fireblast
//Land
16 mountain
4 wasteland
R strip

SB:
4 BEB
4 R+R
4 tormod's crypt
3 shattering pulse?
flaring pain?

Chalice factor:
0cc: 2
1cc: 11
2cc: 15
3cc: 8
whos going to chalice for 6?

lotus kept in: um...its still just good. i can understand the Wheel thing, but lotus just gives a great advantage over other power decks. if i can play null rod and/or ankh first turn, ive made a very nice lock

Barb Ring is out: reason? solely because the card is anti-synergetic with the ankhs. if i were playing any other burn it would go in, no questions, same for scepter as well.

we need more than just eight artifact killers, which is why i thought id add some shattering pulse into the empty slots. will CoP be such a problem that id have to find Sb room for flaring pain??

will post new macthups sooon, if the thread lasts....

peace

[lilmidget]

did you ever think about adding in a black vise? it's restricted for a reason, plus it's awesome with ankh out. ankh will force them to hold back on their land and black vise will punish them for it. i suggest taking out a fireblast for it. fireblast is crazy good, but you won't be having much land out if you play an ankh early, so it can sometimes be a one sided armageddon.

[Fëanor]

judging from when you wrote your reply lilmidget, i believe right around then i was thinking the same thing. black vise will go in, but first ill see if theres something else i might take out instead, ill be back with an answer.

okay, ive done some playtesting and goldfishing, here are some observations.

- its kinda slow. i end up only really playing one spell a turn which is no no against control, or anything for that matter. when i get lucky, i open with a lotus or ruby and am able to set up my land-lock turn 1, but it doesnt happen too often, somehow i need to make this deck faster. or maybe thats as fast as red can go...

-when i run out of threats, it seems bad. i havent tested against anything too T1 hardcore, but i know that  by the time fourth turn comes around and i have one or no card left in hand, and a pup in play, its not okay, because i end up only usually getting one of the three, null rod, ankh, blood moon. one isnt enough for lock.

- sometimes i get mana screwed. sometimes i end up drawing mana when i dont need it. it might have to do with the sleeves, so ill grab new sleeves as soon as i can, but maybe theres something wrong with the manabase im not seeing.

-as mentioned earlier, i have little draw, but as a red deck, why would i have draw...um wheel is calling me, but it is 3cc which will affect my mana big time. any recomendations, would be helpful.

peace

[RoadTrippin]

- sometimes i get mana screwed. sometimes i end up drawing mana when i dont need it. it might have to do with the sleeves, so ill grab new sleeves as soon as i can, but maybe theres something wrong with the manabase im not seeing.

-as mentioned earlier, i have little draw, but as a red deck, why would i have draw...um wheel is calling me, but it is 3cc which will affect my mana big time. any recomendations, would be helpful.

peace

Uhh, I don't think it's the sleeves. I guess it's possible.. but I think it's your worse-than-optimal manabase. First, if you weren't using Null Rod which I admit I don't understand, I would immediately tell you to cut the Lotus for a Sol Ring. Ankh Sligh is a deck about consistency, not speed, based on the idea that a win is a win even if it's a turn or two later than it could have been, as long as you're doing it consistently.  


//0cc
R black lotus- I'd like to see a Sol Ring over this, see below
R mox ruby
//1cc- why no Chain Lightning?? I'm assuming you said somewhere you can't get them, as that's the only way I could make sense of this.
4 lightning bolt
3 mox munky
4 jackal pup
//2cc
4 PoP
4 incinerate
4 ankh of mishra
3 null rod- I really don't see a need for this. You're crippling their artifacts enough with Gorilla Shaman. I'd say cut all 3.
//3cc- I'd cut all 8 of these cards- Blood Moon is slow, it's enough to kill them with their lands (PoP).
4 pillage- strips are enough, or at least they should be if you play them out optimally.
4 blood moon- read above 2 comments    
//free or 6cc
3 fireblast- although I'm not sure if it's great in the deck, I too am a big fan of this card.
//Land
16 mountain
4 wasteland
R strip

Do you think some non-1 cc (and non-Pillage, unless your testing has really proven it worthwhile) artifact destruction would be nice, maybe in the form of 2 crash? Meltdown is also good. I think with these changes, your deck could be back on the right track in no time.

[lilmidget]

here's my decklist:

creatures:
   4x mox monkey
   4x jackal pups
   4x slith firewalker

burn:
   4x chain lightning
   4x incinerate
   4x lightning bolt
   4x PoP

other:
   3x blood moon
   1x fork

artfacts:
   4x ankh of mishra
   1x black vise
   4x null rod

mana:
   1x lotus petal
   1x mox ruby
   1x sol ring
   11x mountain
   1x strip mine
   4x wasteland

4 mox monkeys means more chance of getting them into play before a chalice comes out. being able to eat a chalice for 1 means that i don't have to diversify the cc of my cards too much.

incinerate is better than chain lightning in the same reason why people play stroke of genius rather than braingeyser, but if you have room, try to fit both in.

null rods are there depending on your metagame. masks, metalworkers, and all of the other artifacts i named previously are abundant in my metagame so null rods are a must for me. if you metagame does not run much artifacts, then just take them out. mox monkey may help eat the moxen, but when you get to the bigger artifacts like powder keg (which really hurts you), by the time you get 5 mana to eat it, it will already be too late.

though they have bad synergy with the lotus petal, mox ruby, and sol ring, remember that they are mana acceleration for cards like null rod. if they can help pull out a first turn null rod or ankh, then they did their jobs already and it's not a big set back to have them made obsolete by null rod.

for draw, the only thing i run is fork. though it is very situational, when over half the decks out there run card draw, it can work wonders. it can also be used to as a red counterspell or a finisher (ever try forking a PoP?). wheels are good, if they were one sided. you're taking a big gamble everytime you play it. if you're playing against control, most likely they'll counter it. if they don't, it means they don't have counters in hand, meaning they'll be thanking you for ridding them of such an awful hand.

whoever says that blood moon sucks deserves to be shot. this is the single best card hoser ever and it singlehandedly wins games for you. it even works with PoP because the lands are still considered nonbasic. there's no reason why you shouldn't be running them.

[Androstanolone]

I posted quite a bit in the old temp forums under ankh sligh, so if you wanna see reasons for my decisions just read my posts there.  Slith firewalker isn't worth it, pillage is an option to answer chalice but the loss in momentum and tempo may be too much to recover from even if you do hit chalice.  I think the standard creature base for ankh sligh should start with 4 jackal pups, 4 goblin cadets, 4 gorilla shaman, and 4 goblin vandal.  According to your meta you can alter things, in a very pro aggro meta you would switch cadets for mogg fanatics, and perhaps remove vandals for more burn since you may not be seeing many artifacts.  Also, mishra's factory goes great in ankh sligh, no reason not to run 2 or 3, though 3 is an absolute max, and I run 2 because I'm paranoid about color screw.  So that's the standard creature base, 18 threats with 10 of them being 10 turn clocks.  Also you want the standard 12 bolts of course, 3 fireblasts, 3 price of progress (you really don't need more than one, and it's not *always* a bomb, you can SB the other 1), and 4 ankh of mishra.  Then of course the lands are pretty standard, 14 mountains, mox ruby, 4 wastes, 1 strip mine.  Color screw is rare, you have enough 1 drops to insure that you'll get that crucial 1st and 2nd turn creature pressure, and mishra's factory, fireblast, price of progress, and ankh of mishra all insure you can finish your opponent in a timely manner.  

Other MD options, depending on personal preference and metagame, are the ever-popular weenie eating life draining Cursed Scroll, null rod (but with vandals and shaman rod's just overkill), and ball lightnining/blistering firecat (meta's with low permission levels).  

Remember, sligh is a deck that's all about tempo, the mana curve's tight and there's no room for spells that are in any way sub optimal or consume resources.  Also dropping enough creature threats is a big part of its tempo, and "free" burn (fireblast) also gains massive tempo.  Mishra's factory is great because it's an uncounterable creature that doubles as a land, again allowing you better tempo.  I don't like isochron scepter or shrapnel blast, they don't belong in ankh sligh.

[Fëanor]

@Tripper, what you say is true. ive made these changes because i thought, from an outside view, that my area's meta would crumble under them. if you read above, Sytupal clearly stated that incinerate, being an instant, is better in MUD heavy T1. I therefore took out my chains and put in the three for twos instead. it works fine, i suppose, except that i will spend more time reaching ankh zone.

the lotus was my way to gain speed. the reason why i need speed is because of the ankhs (and bloodmoon and null rod). if i play turn two ankhs, thats two damage i miss, plus i have plenty of other spells to play second turn. The sol ring is not up to par with the deck and i took it out in favor of the PoPs. its true that neither are really fit for the deck, but i have no other option as far as speed goes. i think...

furthermore, technically the rod is better than the munky. it was stated above that rod not only shuts down power, but also slaver, metalworker and any other pesky artifacts running rampant in type 1.

it does indeed make sense not to play all these utility cards and expect to swing for the win. i would take out blood moon and null rod if i could, but the meta is crawling with non-baiscs, and i cant let them have their mana...otherwise theyll toast me. i used to play straight burn, which won very fast, but against combo, was crap. why? because i had no form of defense or control. i switched to ankh because i thought it was the only red control out there where i could still play burn in Type 1.

peace

[Fëanor]

the midget and i have similar meta. though i find playing with fork, while real fun can screw me over almost all the time. i never have the mana to work it out since this isnt a control deck and can waste second turn wating for opponent to play three for one...

@Androstanolone: nice comments. im afraid too many creatures are a bad idea, since everyone plays or SB's mass kill. plus under the lock of MUD, my creatures have a very fun time tapping themselves during the upkeer and never get a chance to do much of anything...
pillage was a game one answer to the fact that i had only four LD, and four ld i didnt think was sufficient, since i have Blood Moon in now, i might consider taking it out, but id probably find room SB for a few.
your factory thing seems to be a good idea, but it would mean less mountains for the blast. its worth the try seeing as i get free creatures. i dont think i want to play the cadets if i have factories though. Vandal's fun but irrational...i dont think id be able to waste time blowing things up even if it doubles as damage. munkys are good for something. null rod just works with the munky, though i dont think i need four of both. im going to keep trying 3 of each for now and see if i can work things out with that.
your strategy seems to be, kill kill kill. um ok ill try it since it sounds fun. i was trying to make more of a land control deck, but i realize its not really possible with red, plus i lose tempo real quick. ill post a deck with my changes soon enough, thanks Androstanolone.

peace

[RoadTrippin]

Feanor- I know plenty about "your meta".. see my location.  

[blankpagez]

Go Ankh Sligh !!
Cool deck Razer51 !!
I kinda don't like the Barbarian Ring. 2 damage not really enough. Pyrite Spellbomb doesn't look to good too if you use it to take a land slot.
How about putting in the new burn spell from the Darksteel set named Pulse of the Forge. Play your land with an Ankh out so that you can return the Pulse of the Forge back to your hand. What do you think HappyField ??
Hey dude, how was the Pre-release of the Darksteel thing ??

How many boxes did you get this time ? Hook a brotha up man !!

[Lyhrrus]

I would only run 3 blood moons if I maindecked it.  It is absolutely useless in copies, and there is little enchantment removal in the format.

I would say run either null rod or blood moon, but not both at the same time.  You need more pressure in your deck, not to topdeck more stalls.  Mono-black cares little for null rods, and stompy doesn't care much for either.  As for null rods shutting down mirror matchups and welderMUD, your blood moons become useless.  Besides, you've got 7 maindeck artifact hate with monkeys and pillage.  Sligh has no card advantage, so having a dead card in your deck at any time makes it a lot less potent.

Also, even though you're afraid of mass removal from people's SB, you have to learn not to overextend.  That's the biggest mistake in Sligh.  Yes, it's bad when they 2 for 1 you, but when they 3 for 1, it's even worse.  Even if you draw a creature, you don't have to cast it, which is why instant >> sorcery for sligh.  If you have a chain lightning and a jackal pup in hand, you have to decide what you want do do on your turn.  Suppose you already have 2 lands and 2 threats out.  Putting out that pup is just asking for trouble if you know they have mass removal.  But if you want to play that chain, they can counter it easily.  Think about how many times things happen EOT.  Opponent Ancestrals/Tutors/Brainstorms.  By incinerating in response, you give them less of a chance to respond.  Also, a lot about sligh is bluffing what you have in hand and forcing your oppoenent to make play mistakes or play defensively.

[Fëanor]

@lhyrrus: ah yes three bloodmoon.

ok i play null rod against: slaver, MUD, Stax, monobrown tangle.
i play blood moon against: keeper, dragon, most good type one decks

which is more important?

id take out rod if not for slaver, worker, stack
id take out moon if not for every deck i play against
id play less of them but it would drecrease the chance of getting them

all three 3 for ones are in now...its better that way...im playing factories because they rule with this deck.

youre absolutely right. the problem with my current build was no threat. i though it would be more profitable to play some lock, but as it is, i need to worry more about the ankh zone. i think taking out rod ad seeing how it does would be a good thing. then ill try with moon.

ill be back,,,peace

[Androstanolone]

goblin vandal > null rod

with 4 vandals and 4 shaman you have a >80% chance of drawing a chalice answer in your opening hand, and either is disruptive against artifact prison.  Why run null rod in sligh?  Sligh is red, red is the color of artifact h8, you can do better than null rod.  Vandal is simply the best MD choice since he's a 1 drop, can attack, and can take out artifacts (and doesn't just nullify abilities, which doesn't hurt artifact prison all that much, and can tear down high CC artifacts).  As far as additional SB help, red has plenty of answers more potent than null rod.

[lilmidget]

i never really liked using vandal very much. there are a few flaws as compared to null rod. first of all, you have to wait a whole turn before you can start attacking and blowing artifacts. second, it requires that it actually has to be unblocked. third, it can only use its ability during combat, meaning you have to continuously use your mana during your own turn as opposed to mox monkey.

the way i see it, you need two sources of hate for both artifacts and nonbasics, one fast that can be used in the early turns and one slow, permanent solution that no longer requires a waste of resources. for the nonbasics, we have wastelands to get rid of individual early threats and blood moons as a global permanent threat. for artifacts, mox monkey is good early indivdual threat, and null rod is the global follow up threat. vandal simply is not as great a solution as null rod to combat multiple artifacts.

[Fëanor]

both of you make very good points.

i think personally, unless the meta changes, viashino heretic is better than the weak, conditionally successful, vandal. its slower but is dead on and more durable

null rod takes out power, which is why i initially ran them. but Razer51 made an important note a while back...

"Null Rod - Shuts down Moxen, Scepter, Slaver, Scroll (Cursed and Rack), Metalworker, Karn, Sol Ring/Monolith/Lotus. Every type 1 deck in my meta uses some, if not most of these cards. WHy would you not MD it when everydeck you see is powered; if resolved it forces them to play lands for mana, making Ankh do its thang. Run them in conjuntion with mox monkey. "

sorry i dont know quite how to use the quote thing to its potential so i just do this instead of making it look crappy

i dont think i could run less than three MD...for safety, but here i go with two...see decklist...

i could SB them since bloodmoon almost always has a better chance at being useful, or i could run a little MD and a few SB...

o k a y  n e w  d e c k  t i m e:

//0cc
R mox ruby
//1cc
4 lightning bolt
3 mox munky
4 jackal pup
4 chain lightning
//2cc
4 PoP
4 incinerate
4 ankh of mishra
2 null rod
//3cc
4 blood moon
//free or 6cc
3 fireblast
//Land
14 mountain
4 wasteland
4 mishra's factory
R strip

SB:
4 BEB
4 R+R
4 tormod's crypt
2 null rod
1 flaring pain?

factories havent proved their worth as of yet, however they have manascrewed me either...

peace

[Elinor]

My ankh sligh  

12 Mountain
4 wasteland
1 strip
3 mishra's factory( 4 are too much for me)
4 city of traditors
1 ancient tomb
(city and tomb are one test, for play null, ankh of 1°, blood and heretic of 2° and play scepter quickly)

4 jackal pup
4 lightning bolt
3 mox munky
3 grim lavamancer(or mogg fanatic )
4 pop
4 incinerate
4 ankh
4 null(i love thise card)
3 blood moon
2 viashino heretic( VS worshop.dec and aggro as block)

SIDE:I don't play REB, becouse i don't like it. Blu are BEB in the side.It's rare i win a counter war for important cards

4 Tormond's Crypt (vs madnes, atog without scepter, dragon)
4 fire/ice (vs aggro, i don't like chain becouse it's a sorcery)
3 R&R(vs worshop.dec)
1 viashino heretic(vs worshop.dec, chalice, scepter....)
3 isochron scepter(test it. vs madness,aggro and monocolor decks. I have 12+4 pop istant for imprint. Test thise card, without tomb and city are a very slow card)

I don't find slot for cadet or slith, but i have 3 mishra.
I don't like fireblast in my deck.

[Androstanolone]

@lilmidget:  running the most burn spells of any deck in magic = your vandal is unblocked.  Null rod doesn't stop any of artifact prison's bullets, namely smokestack but the fact that it doesn't touch sphere of resistance or tangle wire is significant.  You drop null rod 2nd turn and stax/welder mud (if they haven't already used artifact accel to power out a wire/stack) is like, darn, I win maybe a turn late.  I'm glad that's not a vandal b/c vandals eat all the cards that WIN THE GAME.  Without dense THREATS sligh cannot hope to win in time, if you water it down with h8 you'll slow yourself down and maybe slow your opponent down, but sligh is already the most nonbroken deck and I highly doubt you're going to get the speed edge because of some h8.  Also null rod is only really good if it comes out very early, like turn 2, so you waste turn 2 ensuring your opponent can't use their moxen/artifacts instead of building tempo and pressure with creatures, then you have the chance of drawing an extra one, which is totally useless even if your playing against the most artifact ability reliant deck in the world.  So you have a chance at TDing a completely dead card in the matchup that its good against (and wasting a TDed finisher like fireblast and/or price of progress).  And lastly, what about decks that aren't powered?  Now null rod is a dead draw, it deals no damage and just sits in your hand sucking up tempo.  Plus with 3 you will end up drawing it in copies.  So, it isn't that disruptive even against powered decks, occasionally you will resolve an early one against iso keeper and it'll steal the game, but they run permission; you can draw it in copies and then it's useless even against the decks it was included for, and it's dead against any budget/unpowered/monocolored/artifact-ability unreliant deck (like a good sligh deck that packs more creature threats and burn and has a pretty solid chance of beating you in the mirror!).    It weakens the overall power of the deck and doesn't help the matchups it's supposed to help against any more than simply another threat/burn spell would (by speeding up the kill, period).  And don't even think about sideboarding it.  I can see null rod MDed or SBed in decks that don't contain red, but in red there's better MD choices and definitely better sideboard choices.  H8 decks can win, but they never make T8 and they remain just that, h8 decks.  Null rod and blood moon are just that, h8, they don't fulfill any role in sligh.  They don't deal damage.  They are highly conditional disruption spells that will lose you the game as often or more often than win it.  That's all I have to say on null rod.  

@Feanor:  lol, yes that's my strategy Feanor, to an extent.  But you have to "kill kill kill" in an efficient and intelligent way.  Also, I considered viashino heretic at one point and he's still in the back of my mind, he would be fantastic but sligh doesn't cater well to 3cc spells that don't start kicking for a full turn.  I had pillage in sligh for a little while as additional mana denial and an extra chalice/masticore answer, but ended up taking it out because it sat in my hand sucking up tempo more often than I liked (rack and ruin SB for extra chalice answer atm).  Sligh just doesn't have room MD for spells that aren't either fast creatures, slower creatures with a good utility ability, or fast damage/burn.  I think tossing in null rod for "safety" forces you to cut valuable spells that would otherwise win you the game.  If you're playing sligh you basically have to accept that other decks are more broken than you and sometimes you're just going to lose, thus is T1.  Please take my advice and don't water down a good sligh deck with baggage like null rod/blood moon.  Yeah blood moon resolved against the right deck = gg, but it won't resolve often enough, you've got 4 moons and they have 4 MD, 4 Fow, and usually 4 duress.  75% of the time it'll get neutralized.  As far as your deck goes, 4 mishra's factories is a bit heavy, I run 3 max and 2 is usually enough.  You're running 24 mana sources, too much in sligh.  21 is a good number but with 3 factories 22 is probably better.  Depends.  Since everything in your deck is R or 1R (thank god no slith firewalker) you can get away with 3 factories.  They may not have proven themselves yet, but they will, they're an uncounterable threat, and can be a 3/3 blocker to stall long enough to draw enough burn.  They also get around that mass removal you are afraid of.  You're never unhappy to see this guy as long as you've got a mountain on the table or in your hand.  Btw, only 3 mox monkey?  Are you high?  Early on he fulfills the same role as null rod, and attacks, and can block if he has to.  Later on he keeps nibbling away at their life total, and keeping pesky low cc artifacts off the table.  4 is simply mandatory.  Also, my opinions on blood moon aside, 4 is simply too many, 3 max.  One thing you need to think about, you're an aggro deck and you only have 7 creatures, 3 of which are not very scary, plus mishra's factory which can't always be depended on (wasteland) and isn't free to swing with.  You need another 2 attacker, the difference between 2/1 and 1/1 is vast, more so in T1 than anywhere else and moreso in sligh than in any other deck.  Cadets man, you running 12 burns plus cursed scroll if you so choose = cadets attacking.  At the very least, a smart opponent will see cadets on the table and simply refrain from attacking so you won't keep hitting him with the cadets, because a smart player knows you're easily holding 2 burn spells, and maybe a fireblast, that's 10 points of burn, so they're stalling and keeping their life total healthy as long as possible until they're confident they can kill you before you can finish them with burn.  I like what Lyhrrus said, and he's right, a large part of sligh is bluffing.  If you don't have enough burn in your hand do whatever you can to make it seem like you do.   This just buys you more time to TD more burn/creatures.  You need to control the tempo of the game, make them scared of your burn, make them play cautiously (hopefully overcautiously, and induce a play error), then swing with 3 2/1's, cast chain light, bolt, incinerate, fireblast and say gg and start SBing.  Rods don't scare people and blood moons don't resolve unless you're already winning.  What sucks more, a couple of your moxen not working anymore or your life total being drained?  Threats win, other shit just stalls.  As far as facing decks with mass removal, how far you extend is just judgement.  In general good play form is to keep 2 creatures on the table and no more, but if you're ahead you can play cautiously with one, force them to go 1 for 1 with their mass removal (or with their spot removal, which is still one for one and just fine) and then play another threat or two.  If you're somewhat desperate, you might just have to throw down all your creatures so you can at least get one big swing next turn, and hope you TD enough burn to finish them.  I play a lot of sligh, budget aggro/control is mostly all I play.  Currently the meta isn't suited to letting sligh become tier 1, but MDing crap that has no place in sligh isn't the answer, but sligh can win games if you play a good, balanced deck and SB some juicy h8.  You'll be much more satisfied with your deck's consistency, and when you lose at least you'll lose after having done as much damage as possible but they were just so broken that they were a turn or 2 faster, not because you TDed a null rod/blood moon instead of an extra creature/burn against artifact prison when they're life is in the red zone already and they drop smokestack next turn  -_*.  

You're sligh, either you've won turn 4 or after that you're just waiting for the right moment to strike.  

Pulse of the forge is awful.

My sligh (that's done me quite well in the current meta, for a budget aggro deck)

Creatures

4 vandal
4 shaman
4 pup
4 cadet

burn

3 Pop
3 fireblast
4 bolt
4 chain
4 incin

mana

13-14 mountain
4 waste
1 strip
1 mox ruby
2-3 mishra's factory

Cards I'd consider MDing would be pillage, rishadan ports instead of mishra's factories (I prefer factories but my buddy rolls with ports and likes them better, I think they're a bit slow and too controlly but I got no big beef with them), cursed scroll, and mogg fanatics.  Pillage is an extra chalice/artifact answer and isn't just a narrow h8 card.  It with wastelands can occasionally win you a game on mana screw, deny them a specific color (like white, h8 balance feanor?),  and can bury masticore, a creature that is the absolute bane of sligh.  All this plus a chalice answer, pillage is a good card and a consideration even at 3cc in sligh.

I won't list a SB cuz it's individual to the meta, but here's a list of good cards.

Against other aggro:

Cursed scroll:  Nearly mandatory in a sligh SB if it's not MDed, WW can be a tough matchup if they've got pro red creatures, and if they drop empyrial armor they may just beat you down too fast.  Scroll is colorless weenie eating power.  

Arc lightning: Colored, but can go 3 for 1 and is less conditional than the scroll.  It's 3cc kinda sucks, I don't think you'd SB this often unless your meta is full of elves or something, or full of other sligh, against which it can outshine scroll.

Pyrokinesis: Another weenie eater, colored, but "free" sorta.  Losing a spell is rough, worse than most other decks because sligh has no card drawing and every spell is vital to it.  However you can go 4 for 2 here without much tempo loss, I donno whether I'd run this or arc lightning in a heavy sligh/elf meta, mostly because I haven't had to worry about those decks so I haven't tested these extensively.

Ensnaring bridge: Stops bigger aggro like madness and TNT.  Of course, SBing this plus rack and ruin against TNT may just be overkill, but sligh also drops its hand fast so juggernauts/sui chis quickly become useless and you're TDing nothing but burn, mmmm.  Definitely a consideration.  

Mogg fanatics:  Nice in a field full of other weenie aggro, just like arc lightning/pyro/cursed scroll but better in a way because you can trade it for something MDed that's less useful against these decks, like vandal or shaman, so you keep your threat/burn density the same and pretty much retain your original structure with an added anti-weenie boost.  Going 2 for 1 is always good, and sligh likes it the most because every spell is vital.  If your meta's full of weenie aggro and no artifact prison you'd trade these for vandals MD.

Control Decks:

This is a decent matchup for you, you just need a little boost from the SB since control decks always have something for you, too.

Scald:  All control decks have blue, this drops turn 2 so it can avoid mana drain, a resolved one can easily do more damage than any other burn in your deck.

Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast:  To push through threats/burn, but I like scald better because these cards are responsive, and you're the aggro deck.  Scald is a much better aggro/control card since it's proactive and forces them to work around it.  Either way, only devote 4 slots to either REB or Scald.

Rack and Ruin:  For artifact prison, but also for TNT, though you may just side in bridge for TNT and this for prison, since I don't know how you'd find 6 cards to take out of the MD.  

Combo:

If red is the color for artifact h8, it's not the color for combo h8.  The card I SB against combo is pyrostatic pillar, resolving an early pillar against either trix or long usually means the game.  Also T1 is full of 3cc and below spells, because everything is so fast, so almost any combo (even if it's not one you were expecting, or even knew of) will be hurt by pillar.  Drop pillar as early as possible and just wait for them to try to work under it.  Just chill, it's the opposite strategy of this deck, but it's all you can do.  They'll get bolted everytime they try to get closer to comboing out, and eventually you can just burn their ass to the ground.  Of course, combo is still a bad matchup, but there's no point in autolosing rounds 2 and 3.  

Other

Blood moon:  not *so* bad, it does have the ability to simply end the game, it doesn't belong in the MD but if you know you're going to face lots of very nonbasic-dependent deks, 3-4 SBed wouldn't be terrible.  It's under "other" because all three types run nonbasics.

Again, sligh isn't tier 1 anymore, but MDing narrow hate doesn't compensate.  Its presence is still felt, but other decks are robust enough that they don't have to devote nearly as much space to decks like sligh.  People running powered decks are still aware of it and are prepared, but have you seen anyone preparing by changing their manabase to avoid blood moon, or taking out their artifacts because null rod is such a bomb?  Exactly, they're not especially scared of those.  Whew, sorry, but I had to say my say.  



- Androstan