Ankh Sligh

[Lyhrrus]

What?  Still no Black Vise?  

Seriously, as lilmidget said, the advantages generated by it, especially under threat of Ankh are much greater than the possibility of it being a dead draw later.

I guess I still disagree on the Factories.  Yes they're great beaters and defenders, but I still say slighs strength is its invulnerability to NBLH.  You just give your opponent's wastelands targets.  I'd run 2-3 cursed scrolls in their place.

[Ric_Flair]

I am not sure if Ankh can make it any more.  As an experiment I played by 1.x RDW from this year against a fully powered Vintage deck and it was an ass whupping.  The key, I think, is changing the deck to meet the threat of Chalice, a problem with old Ankh Sligh, and meeting the challenge of the more threat heavy decks nowadays.  I think Tangle Wire is an excellent choice.  Here is my deck that I have toying with:

Creatures:
4 Jackal Pup
4 Slith Firewalker
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Gorilla Shaman
2 Dwarven Miner  

Burn:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Incinerate

Lockdown:
4 Tangle Wire

Utility:
4 Pillage
1 Black Vise
1 Wheel of Fortune

Mana:
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
10 Mountains
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Rishidan Port

SB:
4 REB
4 Blood Moon
4 Rack and Ruin
3 Tormod's Crypt

Why Not Ankh?

Well, aggro has been on the rise.  Furthermore, cards like Bazaar and Workshop are so overwhelmingly powerful that the penalty of 2 life is not enough of a deterrent.  In my mind, wMUD is one of the decks that did in Ankh Sligh.  With a Workshop and like two other lands the deck can run.  Ankh is a cute trick but not enough.  

Add to this the rise of legitimate aggro decks, like O. Stompy, TnT, and Madness, the threat of an Ankh v. that of a Juggernaut or a Roar token is not a big deal.  Red control, which is essentially what Ankh Sligh is or was, needs a way to deal with these threats.  Hence the Tangle Wire.  

Pillage and Tangle Wire are too expensive in light of Drain.

Well, yes and no.  This deck absolutely brutalizes the mana base of Drain decks.  The ability to Drain these three cc spells should not happen regularly and you should never cast them when they can cast Drain.  But yes they are a liability.  Plus Pillage is a really useful card in this artifact delirious metagame.

Why Port?

Uber lands have rapidly become the most important part of Vintage.  With the ability to  pin them down during that player's upkeep with a free to cast card, Port is a valuable addition.  Cutting off wMUD's Workshop mana is a huge issue.  It also forces Bazaar to be used at less than optimal times.  

Well, that is my deck.  I will continue to test it, but I think it is better than Ankh Sligh right now.  I will report back with more later.

[mouth]

I've been playing alot of extended lately, and alot of RDW. It's a very powerful deck, in the right meta, and you've done a good job porting it to vintage. My only questions concern the mana base.

The RDW I've been testing with/against runs around 16 red mana sources, but you only have 12. You've dropped the Firecats, which is a good idea because of the prominence of Fire/Ice, but it seems like you might get stuck on one red source frequently.

Also, you should consider playing some fetchies to support the Lavamancers, or is there a reason not to?

I suppose my only other qualm is Wheel of Fortune, even though it combos (!!!) with Black Vise. Personally, I'd drop it for a basic mountain or a Lotus Petal, unless you say something to the effect of "Whenever WoF resolves, I win the game", which is possible I suppose.

Ankh is just too damn slow in vintage, and is pretty weak even in extended, unless comboed (!!!) with Parallax Wave. That wasn't a suggestion btw.

[Androstanolone]

To Lyrhhus:  yeah scrolls for factories is not a bad switch, they have pros and cons, it's more a personal preference than an obvious difference in strength.  Black vise is a good card, but I hate TDing it rather than, say, fireblast or price of progress.  And I'm not going below 3 on either, plus a single of a card simpy doesn't have the impact you want.  Sligh = homogenous redundant consistency.

To Ric_flair:  That deck is seriously flawed man.  I don't even know where to begin.  Let's start with the manabase.  It's just bad and not thought out.  You have 10 solid, permaneant sources of red, one mox, and one temporary source.  You're also running 2 RR CC spells, I run 14 mountains + mox in ankh sligh and sometimes I don't get RR early, occasionally I don't get RR.  11 permaneant sources is just silly.  Second, your deck is slower than ankh sligh.  You've replaced the fast damage spells Price of Progress and Ankh for disruptive cards, pillage and tangle wire.  Supposedly you want to be more resistant to chalice, but you STILL have 28 1cc spells, chalice is still a bomb against you, even if it's out for a few turns, you lose a ton of tempo.  And, why dwarven miner?  He's sloooow, if you're gonna MD nonbasic h8, run something that KILLS them, like price of progress maybe?  I donno just a crazy idea.   So you've diversified the mana base slightly, made color screw a major problem, and chalice can still lose you games.  Lastly, the problem I've already mentioned, is that the primary problem with RDW is it's slow.  Your primary disruption is at 3cc, at least with sligh they're at 2cc.  The aggro in 1.x is much different, rock is a far cry from TNT or madness/stompy madness.  Finally, I'd like to examine your logic:

Why Not Ankh?

Well, aggro has been on the rise. Furthermore, cards like Bazaar and Workshop are so overwhelmingly powerful that the penalty of 2 life is not enough of a deterrent. In my mind, wMUD is one of the decks that did in Ankh Sligh. With a Workshop and like two other lands the deck can run. Ankh is a cute trick but not enough.

You're running 5 strips, 4 LD's, and 4 ports and you're scared of bazaar and workshop!!!???  Under an ankh they *have* to take damage, or their whole game plan is screwed, ankh synergizes more with your deck than with traditional sligh.  And with the widespread use of fetchlands, ankh is even better.  Fetchlands are one of the reasons control is MDing stifle, the tempo boost.  Fetches are more than widespread enough to justify ankh.  

You don't address the key point:  Why change ankh sligh?  You say you're afraid of:  Big aggro, chalice, and stax.  None of your changes except pillage addresses these problems.  Yeah, play wire on big aggro and try to tap down all their perms, sui chi and arrogant wurm will keep pounding you.  Tangle wire is a card to beat control.  Aggro will go "oh" and just tap their perms and attack.  Plus, your manabase is so shitty you'll only sometimes get to actually cast your pillage.

Bottom line:  It's too slow and doesn't address any of sligh's bad matchups in any significant way.   Oh yeah and the mana base is just plain awful.  



- Androstan

[Ric_Flair]

I will admit that the deck is unproven, outside of 1.x.  However some of your comments betray a lack of forethought.  For example:

chalice is still a bomb against you

Really?  Even with maindeck Pillage?  I am sure it is not my favorite play, but Pillage can deal with Chalice.  

Under an ankh they *have* to take damage, or their whole game plan is screwed

Let's see, wMUD can take two damage cast Metalworker and never need to lay a land again, or I can tap both the land and the Metalworker.  Which is better?  The issue is that these lands are so powerful that in some instances they only need to get one into play and use it a few times before your fate is sealed.  2 damage is not significant enough to disrupt their game plan.

Yeah, play wire on big aggro and try to tap down all their perms, sui chi and arrogant wurm will keep pounding you.

OR, and try this on for size, Tangle Wire taps all permanents.  With Ports, Mox Monkeys, Wasteland, and Dwarven Miner, the chances are they will have little land left so that the Tangle Wire will tap these creatures.  

ankh synergizes more with your deck than with traditional sligh.

Actually the use of Ports requires more mana, essentially requiring an additional land drop.  The three mana and stop plan doesn't work any more.

And with the widespread use of fetchlands, ankh is even better.

Actual if you have noticed the use of fetchlands has decreased do the prominence of Stifle, though they are still used quite heavily.

Finally,

Let's start with the manabase. It's just bad and not thought out. You have 10 solid, permaneant sources of red, one mox, and one temporary source. You're also running 2 RR CC spells, I run 14 mountains + mox in ankh sligh and sometimes I don't get RR early, occasionally I don't get RR. 11 permaneant sources is just silly.

Here is the biggest problem.  You are wrong about the mana base.  In fact 1.x's version runs LESS land and worked quite well.  There is no additional land kill in Vintage that would affect this deck aside Strip Mine.  Here is Dan Cato's PT New Orleans deck, note the 8 Mountains:

Lands:
4 Bloodstained Mire
8 Mountain
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills


Creatures:
4 Blistering Firecat
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Jackal Pup
4 Slith Firewalker


Spells:
4 Cursed Scroll
4 Firebolt
4 Seal of Fire
4 Tangle Wire
4 Volcanic Hammer

Add to the fact that I removed the Firecats and I think that there is not as serious a mana screw problem as you think.  I realize that the fetches were in the original deck, but I don't find them as useful in this version.
I have yet to have serious mana screw, but I will keep testing.

[c9h13no3]

Okay, I lurk this forum, and I had to get an account to reply to this post.  It really just blew me out of the water.  I swear he says that Androstanalone has a "lack of forethought", and then posts stuff like this?  Dude, you've got another thing coming.

Really?  Even with maindeck Pillage?  I am sure it is not my favorite play, but Pillage can deal with Chalice.

First of all, the decks that I see running chalice are Keeper, Chalice Black, and Stax//wMUD varients.  You will never drop a pillage on one of their chalice's if they have any kind of play skill.  Between duress///hymn//mana denial in chalice black you won't get it out.  Keeper has counterspells (obviously) and will be protecting their bomb against you.  Stax and wMUD both run massive amounts of mana denial in the form of sphere, wire, and stack (I'm telling you this because you OBVIOUSLY don't know), so playing a pillage becomes quite difficult.  And at 23 spells @ 1 cc in your deck, chalice hurts.  You've done nothing but turn sligh's main spells which are 2cc (PoP, ankh), and turn them into 3cc spells (pillage, and wire) which wasn't an issue under chalice anyways.  Bottom line is, chalice is still a problem.  Your best answer is a first turn Shaman or Vandal, which you have dropped from your deck.

Let's see, wMUD can take two damage cast Metalworker and never need to lay a land again

ARE YOU HIGH?!  Metalworker won't live to see the light of day.  Just a reminder, you're playing SLIGH, who's general formula goes something like 1/3 creatures, 1/3 land, 1/3 BURN.  20 burn spells (4 bolts, 4 chains, 4 lava mancers [if you play them first turn], and 4 incinerates) MIGHT be able to deal with that Metalworker.  Do you think before you write things like that, Mr. "lack of forethought?"

OR, and try this on for size, Tangle Wire taps all permanents.  With Ports, Mox Monkeys, Wasteland, and Dwarven Miner, the chances are they will have little land left so that the Tangle Wire will tap these creatures.

Miner is too slow vs. an aggro deck.  Su-Chi's will be knocking at your door.  Ports are 2 perms for your 1, they don't count.  Wastelands are 1 for 1.  And lastly, many TNT decks actually RUN tangle wire!  How disruptive can it really be if they felt they run enough permanents to get around the draw backs of running it?  Thier creatures will be beating down more often than not.

Actually the use of Ports requires more mana, essentially requiring an additional land drop.  The three mana and stop plan doesn't work any more.

Yes, but while it may require you to drop another land, taking -2, it forces your opponent to do the same.  Either a wasteland to kill your port, or another land to take the place of the ported one.  And since you can control when ankh comes out, you could even play your port, and THEN drop the ankh, taking none.  Either way, more damage to your opponent is ALWAYS advantageous in sligh.

though they are still used quite heavily.

You answered yourself there.  At least you didn't put something silly like a 1/2 creature will survive against sligh.

Here is the biggest problem.  You are wrong about the mana base.  In fact 1.x's version runs LESS land and worked quite well.

It's not that you don't run enough land, it's that you have 11 sources of red.  That's about one sixth of your deck.  So you'll have to draw about 12 cards to get 2 sources.  In case you didn't know, that's 5th turn if you draw.  If you play, 6.  The math is not in your favor there.  And your main bullet cards which supposedly improve your chances of dealing with chalice are both RR (slith & mainly pillage).  You WON'T have the double red many games, and that's what Androstanalone is trying to tell you.  Try actually reading his post next time if that isn't too much of a stretch.

but I will keep testing.

Good thing.  I suggest testing out a completely different deck.

Anyway, that post was just too ridiculous not to respond to.  Back to my world of lurking I go.

- C9.

[Androstanolone]

Ric, it is your deck that has shown a lack of forethought, and you that have shown a lack of knowledge, planning, and skill.

The solutions in your deck that "solve" your problems cost RR. Supposedly slith speeds up your beatdown. Pillage only deals with chalice if you have RR open... 10 mountains doesn't cut it, sorry. I worked it out in statistics last year when I was bored, and the probability of drawing a card you have 8 copies of in your library in your opening hand (7 cards) is around 80%, thus if you want RR by turn 2 with regularity (but don't absolutely need it every time), 15 red sources is a good number, which is a typical sligh mountain count. So probability of turn 2 fast slith = LOW. Probability of turn 3 pillage to take care of chalice = LOW. Probability of making use of these 2 additions to sligh = LOW. Probability of them sitting in hand sucking up tempo while opponent wins= HIGH. Getting it? Mathematically your deck should get RR by turn 6 often if you play, GOOD JOB.


Let's see, wMUD can take two damage cast Metalworker and never need to lay a land again, or I can tap both the land and the Metalworker


A metalworker is gonna see its next turn in a deck running 1/3 burn (including 'mancer), are you on CRACK??? Not to mention, ankh is a CONSTANT BURN SPELL that DOUBLES AS A PERMANEANT. Therefore, you can TAP IT TO WIRE, if anything ankh improves this matchup.

Tangle wire taps their permaneants, turn 3 if you're lucky, miner has done no damage by then and if you've been delaying them with port you haven't been doing much either. By then TNT will drop survival, pull out squee, sui chi, and possibly triskelion, and (albeit a little slower) proceed to duly pound you in the ass while you desperately try to keep their resources limited. Rather humorously, you'll be the one without enough red mana to keep up.

Quote:
Actually the use of Ports requires more mana, essentially requiring an additional land drop. The three mana and stop plan doesn't work any more.
 


It doesn't? Maybe you just don't know how to play sligh, because I win many games with 3 lands against established decks. I think maybe you need to learn how to play magic, because ankh sligh isn't dead or down the tubes, it's just not a top deck.

Quote:
Actual if you have noticed the use of fetchlands has decreased do the prominence of Stifle, though they are still used quite heavily


Saying stifle is decreasing fetchland usage is like saying the over 18 legal limit on cigarettes and pornography has decreased the number of underage crimes. People like sex and porn, and cigarettes are still addictive, whether one puts you in jail and the other kills you or not.

And now we come down to where you just plain look stupid. Dan Cato's deck runs SIXTEEN sources of red!!! A fetchland gets a mountain, didn't you know that? With sixteen, he is most definitely assured a quite stable mana base, aquiring RR for his SINGLE RR spell should be effortless, since he runs almost 60% more permaneant sources of red than you, and 4 fewer RR casting cost spells. You have just proven my argument, I appreciate it, now go back to an extended forum and make your RDW.

Conclusion: Deck = bad, Deckbuilder = Retarded

Ahem.  It is clear that you do have worthy contributions to make in this thread; however, your inflammatory approach may garner you a warning.  Please consider a less-judgemental, all-round more polite approach in future.  Kudos to everyone else for not swallowing this flame-war-bait.  ~Razor

BE CIVIL. Warning Issued.
-- Toad

- Androstan

screwed up the quotes, sue me.

[Fëanor]

Wowie, what a huge number of responses that helped me as much as George Bush Jr. helped fund schools and libraries.....   hahahahaha I love TMD (and Draco).

Seriously, the way I look at it, there was way too much of nothing going on here. I appreciate the responses as Sligh is a topic of delight to me recently, however why argue about someone elses deck? Ric: if you want feedback on your (I'm sorry to say) sub par deck, write your own thread. Though I can't say your deck doesnt work in whatever meta and area which you live, it doesnt help to hear about your meta and area because I won't be playing there. If you truly wanted to help, you'd have given me mere suggestions on the cards already in my deck, and give reasons for others I haven't considered. I dont believe you read the entire thread, and I don't blame you if you didn't (its gettin reeeeal long), but in order to have any say in regards to the betterment of my deck, then you have to have read it all to see where I've been and where I'm going. I hope that didn't seem to flamey. Just as well, I'd like to see less flaming, esp in my posts. Now on to feedback.... (did I mention TMD rox?)

@Lyrrus: I tested the Vise today against Gay Red and Dragon and it both rocked and sucked. For dragon it was a nuissance but as soon as bazzar came out, I would have rather have played ankh so he couldnt win right away. Against Gay, well Tiki was sad...It um...got countered by a damn Daze.....grrr...Black Vise does seem like the ideal card here, but trust me, it just didn't work.
As for the Factories, I'm seeing a lot of negative feedback on them. Personally I dont see why not to run them, Yes, they are anti-synergetic with PoP, However, if I take two and my opponent takes six, I'm still pretty damn happy (who the hell is Mr. Green?!)

@Ric_Flair: We don't play Ankh simply because it deals two damage for something everyone has at least one of in their deck. The one main reason why Ankh kicks ass is because of Dragon's stupid combo which is completely screwed over by Ankh...plus there's fetch, which I see in every deck in my area...
I'm not going to tell you that you must be on crack, but you obviously havent realized that a Metalworker is a measily 1/2 and Welder, a 1/1 ('Mancer, 1/1, other pesky Gay stuff, small enough for Sligh to kill). Basically anything except some beefy stompy creatures or MoreFling, which doesn't see play very often anymore (nor the Newb forum ), I can whip out a bolt on, if i need to, and never see again.
To be honest, your deck does need some tweaking, though that will be up to you based on your area's meta (you should open your own thread so we can discuss it there rather than on top of my own thread which I've been working hard to maintain and Andro, Lyrrus and Rane to name the few have been helping enormously to help me with it).

@mouth: Who's deck are we babbling about??? Not mine methinks...

@c9h13no3: I feel your pain man....  Thanks.
And you have shown to have great knowledge of magic theory which would very much help anytime in the future if you ever see anything wrong with my build. please feel free to speak your opinion.
Oh, and while the reply was helpful, I would like to see less about an irrelevant deck and more about the deck that this thread is based upon.

@Androstan: You are being sued as we speak for fucking up the quotes jkjk (I think I've already said it, but TMD kicks other forums's asses)
Thanks for the support. 'Mancers are finding their way in in place of the cadets and they are simply golden. The loss of a few 2/1's is fine with me because I still have *3* reliant 2/2 factory workers (which, might I add, help me TREMENDOUSLY against Gay and Phish!!!!!!!! omg).
yes....Scald kicks...Never taking it out of the SB......that is once I find some room....errrrrrr
Tangle Wire not so much. I know you personally didn't say anything about including it, but it has been an implication all along from Ric. That it is synergetic is quite true. That it costs 3cc and would crap my deck out completely and give more time for control players to gain control and give aggro more beat times is also very true. Though I'd miss it, it's not going in.

As I mentioned before, I played Gay today. The first matchup was a simple use of Ankh and Waste action, plus a Cadets and a Pup and a few burns before standstill could control me. I won by brute force, plus he had a crap hand, but hey he kept it and I still won.
Second game:Black Vise opening hand, dazed. Ankh second turn FoWed....@#%$$&&^%@#@^%# I hate magic.................
the beat followed, standstill, broken by a bolt to his 'Mancer and a Pup to the table, which he Dazed as well. LoA kicked my ass as well as many faeries and pretty things. I Fireblasted at the wrong time and from then on had one crappy land in play, and no more ever came to sight, except when he ancestraled ME!!!! because it would have killed him...I hate magic........

I'll post a new decklist as soon as I can, though right now, only a few things have changed so the previous decklist should do for now. with minor adjustments:

- Mishra's
- cadets
+ 'Mancer
+ Munky (cause Vise sucked)

                           
@TMD: YOU ROCK!!!!!!!!!!    

Peace      

[Lyhrrus]

The maindeck threat of chalice these days means the necessity of maindecking (though not necessarily a 4 of) of artifact hate, usually in the form of Rack and Ruin.  While this weakens the deck overall (less burn count), it is imperative that the deck maintains instant speed goodness.  Pillage really is too slow, and only is especially effective against Masticore.

The drawback to Tanglewire is that it slows you down too much.  Yes, if I don't draw a Wasteland in response to a Workshop within a turn, then it generally is a really bad tempo situation.  But with Tanglewire out, the situation is even worse as now I cannot apply pressure.  wMUD functions on the basis that it WANTS to slow everything down.  Sligh wants to keep the fast pace (though not too fast, hence why it loses to Dragon a lot).

Again, Port is a non-basic land, weakening Sligh's strength off lacking non-basics.  It gives the opponents Wastelands usage.



Well, it looks like I have to test out Mishra's, though I'm not sold on the idea over giving my opponents Wasteland targets.

I'm not sure Grim Lavamancer is a automatic 4 of.  Ankh Sligh lacks a graveyard buildup as quickly as Goblin Sligh.  I would say though that it does have a weird synergy with Fireblast though.  !?!  :shock:

[Fëanor]

Lyrrus:
I think 'Mancer kicks. Here's why. By the time you have the extra resources to spend on him, it's usually turn three at least (you might t2 but it would be a waste of time unless you drew real crap). By turn three, you should have already dealt a good 10 damage to your opponent depending on PoP and creatures, so how many times am i going to need to 'Mancer provided I also keep creature threats coming? Once or twice probably, same reason for adding scroll, they just die slightly easier in scepter/MUD meta.

Chalice: I dont see chalice hardly at all anymore, maybe it's a calm b4 the storm or something but...The less i see chalice, the less MD my art h8 needs to be, hence 4 R+R SB.

Yep, manlands die quick from wastes, but phish runs 'em. Add to that the fact that they could also just as easily find a way to kill your 2/1's, either way, if they have a way, why not play both and beat 'em with at least one? :lol:

Peace

[Ric_Flair]

Okay, I am going to go slowly through the responses because I think they deserve careful critique.

Before I do that I have some data, yes actual facts to enter into this debate.  

First, after the critique of lack of red sources I went home and drew 50 hands after shuffling appropriately.  In 31 of 50 hands I had RR on turn 2.  That is good but not enough.  So I dropped one Miner and the Wheel for two more Mountains.  Ten more shuffle and draws: 8 of 10 with RR.  9 of 10 RR on turn 3.  

Second, Keeper runs only 10-13 blue sources in a deck that is almost ALL blue.  Many decks that are heavily one color with splashes of others run only 10-14 of their primary color.  

@c9h13no3:

First of all, the decks that I see running chalice are Keeper, Chalice Black, and Stax//wMUD varients.

Here in New England I have not seen a Keeper build running Chalice, even in the SB since last November.  Chalice has fallen out of the deck.  Furthermore, I rarely see Chalice Black.  The fact is that in the current metagame the Sui route is just not viable.  Look at the past two Waterbury T8's.  Sui can't cut it.  The only semblance of reasoned metagame analysis here is the notion that wMUD and Stax run Chalice.  They do.  But I am not sure that Ankh helps against them any more than Pillage or Tangle Wire do.  

Your best answer is a first turn Shaman or Vandal, which you have dropped from your deck.

OOPS!  There are 3 Shamans in my deck.  Look again.

ARE YOU HIGH?! Metalworker won't live to see the light of day.

Right now there has been a noticeable, yet not posted uptick in the number Lightning Greaves used in TNT and other aggro Workshop decks.  Look at Samite Healer's Broodstarrunner 2.0 deck.  Often times the play is a Greaves and Metalworker first turn.  There are other ways to protect and/or recur the Metalworker as well.  The issue here is that this Greaves tech is good and still relatively unknown.  When it becomes more widespread, as it will, you will see that it is not a GIVEN that Metalworker dies instantly.  The issue of multiple targets, ie Welder AND Metalworker, guarded by Greaves and the like will make burn slightly less effective.  I would prefer to make a deck prepared to fight the future instead of the past and a metagame with Chalice in Keeper and Sui running rampant.  I also realize that NE is usually at the edge of tech with major tournaments and players all local so maybe what I am saying does not help now, but trust me--it will.  There are new artifact decks coming.

And lastly, many TNT decks actually RUN tangle wire! How disruptive can it really be if they felt they run enough permanents to get around the draw backs of running it? Thier creatures will be beating down more often than not.

 

Well here is the thing with many of the better TNT decks: they have a REALLY high NB land count.  Steve's TNT runs 2 basic lands, a forest and a mountain.  I have plenty of NB hate and ways to kill their land.  They can however run without much land, but they cannot run without land AND without permanents which is what Tangle Wire does.  I guess this is a matter of playtesting against these decks.  I have an advantage in being able to test against good players with all the cards and bleeding edge tech every week.  I saw O. Stompy as it was born.  I saw Keeper's mutations.  I saw Broodstarrunner being born.  Tangle Wire hurts low count permanent based decks when they have no land or tapped lands.  And I did drop one of the Miners because they were too slow.

And since you can control when ankh comes out, you could even play your port, and THEN drop the ankh, taking none. Either way, more damage to your opponent is ALWAYS advantageous in sligh.

I am not sure what to say about a vaccous comment like this.  More damage to your opponent in ANY deck is always advantageous.  My point is that with the increased power of lands and the decreased reliance on multiple lands Ankh does not do enough.  Take Oshawa Stompy for example.  The deck is PERFECTLY content running on two forests and a Bazaar.  In an old design of Ankh Sligh, without Ports, Pillages, or Tangle Wires, that is six damage and nothing else.  Oshawa Stompy will CRUSH old style Ankh Sligh.  It has better creatures, little dependence on land and no real artifacts to screw over.  In my deck I can tap those lands down, destroy them and then cast Tangle Wire to stop the creatures in play that can't be bolted (Arrogant Wurm and usually Wild Mongrel).  I can also tap the Bazaar to make them use it at less than perfect times, like when the Squees are still in the graveyard.  I think some of the criticism is the result of not testing the deck (AT ALL) and not playing against the best possible metagame.  

Good thing. I suggest testing out a completely different deck.

Look, the fact is this deck is dead.  It makes no impact in a powered metagame.  It hasn't in 6 months.  Without some innovation your deck will remain a tier 3 mongrel that can beat up kid's decks but wimpers in the face of real competition.  I was attempting to take an existing, proven archetype in 1.x, tap into cards that cripple current top tier Vintage decks, and re-tune a dead deck.  Comments that are rude or just mean aren't helpful.  This deck NEEDS innovation, not minor tweaks.  If it was Keeper or Tog or a deck that HAS BEEN WINNING that would suffice, but it hasn't.  What is listed in this thread IS NOT WORKING.  The results bear that out.  No Top 8s in major events in a long time.  

@ Androstanolone:

First here is how you use the quote feature:

1) Press the quote button
2) Insert the quoted text
3) Press the quote button again

or

Type this: left bracket (use the bracket key next to "P") the word quote, then right bracket.  Then insert the text.  Then left bracket, backslash, quote, right bracket.  It is just basic code.

Okay on to the specifics.

It doesn't? Maybe you just don't know how to play sligh, because I win many games with 3 lands against established decks. I think maybe you need to learn how to play magic, because ankh sligh isn't dead or down the tubes, it's just not a top deck.

I stated that the three land plan doesn't work anymore and this was your response.  The data is not with you.  Ankh Sligh is DEAD.  It has not done well in a long, long time because it died to Chalice and it could not stop the power of Bazaar and Workshop both of which use beefy creatures and need very little land.  I know how to play Magic and I know that this deck, as it was built by Legend is not cutting it in the current metagame.  And if it is not a top deck, why play it?  I think it can be a BETTER deck than it is, if there are people out there willing to innovate.  I obviously posted in the wrong forum, based on the attacks I have received.  Keep playing your tier 3 versions of a deck that won a few tournaments a year ago.  I prefer to play WINNING DECKS.

Saying stifle is decreasing fetchland usage is like saying the over 18 legal limit on cigarettes and pornography has decreased the number of underage crimes. People like sex and porn, and cigarettes are still addictive, whether one puts you in jail and the other kills you or not.

Look again at the most recent postings of decks.  The number of fetches is decreasing slightly.  Most Keeper, GAT, and Tog lists have gone down to 5 fetches from a high of sometimes up to 7.  Landstill's recent run has also made Stifle a very good card and fetches something of a necessary liability.  And your analogy is TERRIBLE.  Without the limit those actions WOULD NOT BE crimes.  So saying the age limit causes people to look at porn or smoke is an incorrect statement.  It does not cause the activity, it merely criminalizes it.  I think what you were trying to say is that the age limit on porn and cigarettes is not a deterrant, in a similar way to  Stifle is not being a deterrant to using fetchlands.  Whatever the deterrant top decks and top builds of those decks have nipped the count of fetches down recently.  That is a fact.

Conclusion: Deck = bad, Deckbuilder = Retarded

There were no personal attacks in anything I said.  I never singled you out as an idiot.  I never made comments about your skill.  You don't know me.  How can you know these things?  My deck list is an attempt to innovate and renovate a dead deck.  It requires experimentation to do this.  Have you even TRIED this build?  Have you playtested it?  Personal attacks are uncalled for, childish, a waste of time, and in poor taste.  If you cannot articulate your thoughts without them, don't post at TMD.  

He received a Warning for that. Now,  please, back on topic.
-- Toad

@ Feanor:

The one main reason why Ankh kicks ass is because of Dragon's stupid combo which is completely screwed over by Ankh.

The fact is that Dragon is not the force it once was.  People have become aware of the deck and know how to beat it.  The new and rising threats are decks like O. Stompy, Broodstarrunner, and Neo Tog and TNT.  Building a metagame deck, which is what Ankh Sligh is, to beat a non-existent metagame is a formula for failure and recent tournament results prove this.  There are no Ankh Sligh decks ANYWHERE at Waterbury.

it doesnt help to hear about your meta and area because I won't be playing there.

This is a silly comment.  Why should I care about your metagame either?  Truth be told though my metagame, New England, is a metagame that is important.  Many of the top players and decks play here.  Building decks that win here is a true accomplishment because even small events have great players and lots of Power.  This idea that people from different metagames should not post in other's threads is dumb.  While your metagame is important eventually metagames like Duelman and Hadley/Waterbury will impact your metagame because they are the bleeding edge in terms of players, decks, and technology.

This thread is a perfect example of how good topics get hijacked.  If Ankh Sligh were a top flight deck then single card tweaks would be a good idea and discussions of highly specific metagames warranted, but this deck is a losing deck.  It has not won in a while in a major tournament.  If the point of TMD is to innovate and shape the format, tweaking third tier metagame decks by a few cards is not meeting that goal.  Furthermore, the level of criticism of my comments and decks was childish.  There were more personal attacks and off topic comments than I could possibly point out.  There is hope here, but the bullying has to end and REAL innovation needs to take place, along with some playtesting against GOOD, CURRENT, POWERED decks.

[Bram]

@ Androstanolone: I feel the need to jump in and tell you your math is off.

I worked it out in statistics last year when I was bored, and the probability of drawing a card you have 8 copies of in your library in your opening hand (7 cards) is around 80%

This is untrue. The probability of drawing a card you have 8 copies of in a 7 card opening hand is in fact 65,4%. It's a hypergeometric distribution problem (the statistics of random sampling without replacing the samples). You can check this in, for example, MS Excel.

Even so, Ric_Flair isn't running 8 mountains. He's running 4 lands that fetch mountains, too, effectively letting him run 12 mountains.

Mathematically your deck should get RR by turn 6 often if you play

This is a nonsensical statement. It's all a question of what you think is good enough. The only REAL way to be 100% sure you have 2 mountains when you start is to either run 55 mountains and 5 nonland cards, or to draw a 50 card opening hand (based on 12 mountains in the deck).
   
Realistically, the chance of having 1 Mountain (out of 12, not 8...) on hand in a 7 card opening hand is 81%. The chance of having 2 mountains by turn 2 is 51%. That's good enough, usually. Especially since you can mulligan to 2 land. You mentioned something about turn 6; by then he should have RR available 76% of the time.

[jazzykat]

One rather important point I would like to bring up regarding pillaging a chalice. When I use a fully powered blue base control (keeper, hulk smash, whatever...) sometimes casting rack and ruin (an instant, during my upkeep) is a problem. (Granted, MUD's wastelands go active on my duals, but I have moxes to accelerate out the hate, so it is rare that they kill them all. Further consideration shows that the red deck does have a lot of little dorks to tap, but if Chalice=1 then outside of drawing the ruby, while under a wire there is no way to cast any more dorks until the wire leaves one of your lands alone and then you drop one.).

I am not totally convinced that under cards like sphere, and tangle wire which are staples in wMUD, that chalice is so easily removed by a deck with very little acceleration. Maybe I am wrong, but I wish I had three mana against wMud every time untapped in my main phase, and no speres out. Mu ha ha ha...mu ha ha.

Side point: Chalice black, chalice keeper....I don't think they are played any more (I haven't seen it at least). The only place I think that chalice is in right now is wMUD but I am not totally sure.

Happy developing everyone!

[Fëanor]

Just wanted to say a few things that might help us get back into structured topic. I'm glad no one has been too volatile and this lack of fire has proven all as calm, respectable players and people and etc.

@Ric: Your points are valid:

The fact is that Dragon is not the force it once was. People have become aware of the deck and know how to beat it. The new and rising threats are decks like O. Stompy, Broodstarrunner, and Neo Tog and TNT. Building a metagame deck, which is what Ankh Sligh is, to beat a non-existent metagame is a formula for failure and recent tournament results prove this. There are no Ankh Sligh decks ANYWHERE at Waterbury.

True I should care just as much about your meta as you about mine. Yet I am not one of the most competitive players in N.E. and surely not the Cape. Your meta analysis is clearly better than mine, and I appreciate that you look forward at things like metalworker starting to be greaved. This may matter to any normal player, but I'm crazy you see... . Seriously though, I won't ever be looking at taking my deck off Cape and swimming in deeper water because I've tried it before, and the level of competitve action is a little more than id wish to endure. So really, while your meta does have an impact on mine, what you've been seeing off Cape is not always what I've been playing against on Cape. I don't really know what decks we'll see in the fututre, but for the present, I've seen fetch and poorly designed MUD, and that's what I've been working my deck to defend against. I truly believe Ankh Sligh would have very very little chance anywhere else. Your comments have been helpful and I don't depreceate you any for helping out.

I ran Pillage for quite some time and it ravaged Chalice. I took them out because since last year I've seen maybe one deck with chalice in it. Even Sytupal took his ChalBlak.dec apart for Dragon. I never thought pillage was a bad card, but for now, it seems relatively useless. In my meta, you can easily pull off a vandal first turn in time to stop MUD in its own sticky stuff.  

I'll post more later, for now, i must work, any and all comments welcome (within reason of coursey doursey)

Peace

[blankpagez]

By the way Fëanor, did you started the deck discussion first in the old forums when TMD was down or was it someone else ??

I think a buddy of mine was the first on who posted the deck. He is Razer51. Just a quick question.

First of all, this should have been a PM, not a post. Second, Sligh has been around forever, and even Ankh Sligh is not new. Trying to figure out who did it first is not only futile, but leads to counterproductive arguments.

-Jacob

[Androstanolone]

@Bram:  I was just bored in my statistics class and thought I'd try to calculate it by hand, obviously it could easily be off.  The fact that the probability is less than I thought only strengthens my argument about his mana curve...  I appreciate it.  Btw, did you look at his deck?  10 mountain + 4 rishadan port + 4 wasteland + 1 strip mine +1 mox ruby = 10 mountains + other stuff.  I'm talking about his first build, since that's the one posted and the one which C9 and I jumped on him for.  Where are 4 things that fetch him a mountain?  Nowhere...  I'll give you that mox is another source of red, though it is significantly less dependable than a mountain, but there are no fetches.  Maybe you should have read my post too...  I only used the number 8 because I didn't know the probability of any other number of copies offhand, so I fudged up the probability a bit to account for him having 10, then halfed it to get the probability of drawing RR in the opening hand.  It was only meant to be a ballpark figure, mostly  I was only trying to prove a point, not wow anyone with my mathematical or technical skills, but your prowess in that department has pretty much sealed my argument.  His manabase sucks.

 

Realistically, the chance of having 1 Mountain (out of 12, not 8...) on hand in a 7 card opening hand is 81%. The chance of having 2 mountains by turn 2 is 51%.

So, he has a one in two chance of actually casting his RR bullets early game (when they will have the most impact).  This is AFTER adding 2 mountains.  If I follow this correctly, half of the time slith and pillage are going to sit dead in his hand the first several turns, where most magic games are decided.  Can't anyone see how bad his manabase is?  Jeez.

This is a nonsensical statement. It's all a question of what you think is good enough. The only REAL way to be 100% sure you have 2 mountains when you start is to either run 55 mountains and 5 nonland cards, or to draw a 50 card opening hand (based on 12 mountains in the deck).

My statement is not nonsensical, we're speaking in real world applicative terms, the fact that it is impossible to have 100% chance of drawing 2 mountains in the opening hand requires 55 mountains is completely irrelevant.  We seek a reasonably good chance, because we live in the real world, which is subjective and varies, but in a deck that depends on having RR to cast key spells, I'd say a one half chance of getting what you want early is not good enough.  Ever flipped a coin and gotten heads before?  That has a 1/2 chance and obviously it happens.  You said he would have RR by turn 6 76% of the time, so my approximation actually worked here, mathematically he has a decent chance of getting RR by turn 6.  He needs to transform turn 6 into turn 3  if he wants to cast his RR spells reasonably often, at a speed relevant to T1.  And nobody wants to mulligan down bram, especially not a deck that needs every spell to win and has no card drawing or innate card advantage (besides some reusable burn spells).  Thanks bram for clearing up the math, ric's manabase still sucks.  

@ric you really just need to stop man...  you're not helping yourself by responding.  Try this:

1.  Count the number of mountains you have, make this number M
2.  Count the number of mountains in Dan Cato's deck, then add this to his number of fetchlands since they are, for all intents and purposes, a mountain.  Make this number N.
3.  Perform the operation N-M.  Make this number R.  

R represents the number of mountains that dan has in his deck that you don't.  If you performed these operations correctly, you should get something like 6 (for your latest build where you added 2 mountains).  This is a 60% increase over your number.  At least I can add and subtract, I'd rather forget my endtags than elementary math.  

EDIT - I thought Toad and the rest asked you to be civil and not attack anyone, particularly Ric, who indeed is a good player and has had excellent contributions, moreso than many here.

- Androstan

[Ric_Flair]

You can defend your "tech" all day long, but the numbers don't lie.

What numbers?  When did I use numbers?  When did you use numbers that were accurate?  And here is the real number that makes a difference:  

Major Wins By Ankh Sligh in the Past 6 Months:  ZERO.

That is the number that you should worry about.  That is the number that spawned my attempt to innovate with a dead deck.  

Furthermore, I am sure most people here don't remember, but Legend had a similar fight over getting Flesh Reaver into Sui over the 2/2's for B.  And based on his primer and the deck's success in that metagame, we all know how that turned out.  I am not Legend.  He is a great deckbuilder and player.  But I am trying to innovate in the same vain that he did.  Bashing me personally does nothing to further this thread, this deck, or anything.  

Also, you have way too much time on your hands to actually draw 50 hands... omg.

Here is the thing, I got home at about 9:30.  I watched Law and Order and the News.  I had the deck next to me and a pad of paper.  While I was watching I shuffled and cut, shuffled and cut and got the numbers I laid out.  I find this to be very helpful for determining mana configurations.  Just mindless shuffling and drawing shows you how the mana falls.  And this is something that can be done while doing other things.  I have used this technique to figure mana counts for all sorts of decks, and a deck like this that NEEDS RR on turn 2 is an optimal patient for this treatment.  

So thank you for the personal slurs and I hope that this helped someone out there.

[Androstanolone]

I will try not to "attack" you ric, but I don't think my point is getting across, so let me make it crystal clear:

ric, the fact is you posted dan cato's deck to defend your manabase, and the deck you posted has 16 ways to get a mountain.  You posted this deck and said that it had fewer mountains, indeed it does have fewer mountains but it also has 8 ways to get those mountains.  Functionally his deck runs more mountains than yours, these are the numbers I am talking about.  You used completely irrelevant evidence to support your argument, this is the lack of credibility I am talking about.  Also, just as friendly advice, drawing hands to find out how the land falls is not the best way.  On any given day, at any given time, someone can flip 5 heads in a row, to get an actual idea of how the land falls you'd have to do a statistical number of draws.  It's better to simply use bram's geometric thingy or common sense.  A rule I use is that, if a deck contains 10 lands, there is one land distributed to every 6th card on average.  I speak in lay terms, for a system that is free of complex math.  It works out fairly well.  Therefore, if you want 2 mountains by the time you have drawn 8 cards, you need 15 mountains, one distributed to every fourth card on average.  This works to a high degree of success.  I'd be highly grateful if Bram actually checked what kind of probabilities that gives.    

Also, the greatest degree of irrelevance in this thread came with your posts and decklist, your deck is not ankh sligh.  This is an ankh sligh thread, if you would like to 'port RDW, then make a thread called "T1 RDW" or something similar.  Saying things like "ankh sligh is dead" in an ankh sligh forum is completely useless and counterproductive.  The fact that ankh sligh has won zero tournaments is completely irrelevant, feanor doesn't care, some of us just like to play what we like.  Not everyone plays to win.    

Now, I ask you politely to create a thread in which you can discuss your non-ankh sligh deck in peace, and receive all the RELEVANT feedback you want.  If you post further here, please talk about ankh sligh, not T1 RDW.  Thanks.  



- Androstan

[Fëanor]

Okay...

@Ric, you have given some very interesting points, plus you have provided a better and more viable decklist, which I may try at one time soon. However, Andro truly is right in saying that your decklist and comments have little to do with my deck at all. Instead what you are doing is trying to make me play a deck I dont want to play. Please do not take this as an attack etc. Infact I personally would love to read more of this stuff in a thread of your own (no joke) if you have the time to write one. But please, in my thread I would like to improve the deck I have now, by keeping it what it is, and making it more playable (I don't care much for making a winning deck as much as I do following through with a cool idea, Ankh Sligh was just a cool idea)

Now SB options as it stands:

R+R (MUD)
REB (TOG)
Crypt (turns out I kicks against Dragon, who knew.... )
Scald (a cheaper BM)
Pyrostatic Pillar (Combo? lol)

Obviously I can't play 4 of each, which would be fun. What's more important?

Personal EDITORS must leave names, I've read. Who edited Andro's post?

Peace

[Androstanolone]

Of course your SB is tailored specifically to your meta, but a comment I can make is that when SBing for combo you'd probably go with either crypt or pillar.  You mention dragon a lot and if that's your primary combo matchup then of course crypt is the better option.  I wouldn't really run both, as crypt can also deactive rector in that matchup, and can even balk a yawg's will from tendrils aka long.  Of course, crypt is not as much of a gamestopper against long or even trix, I've seen trix hardcast bargain or necro very early and win many times.  Pillar does very little to dragon, but against trix it can easily be the nail in the coffin as you will usually take half their life in burn, severely curtailing the number of cards they can bargain for, and restricting the number of cheap spells and fast mana they can play.  Obviously pillar is more effective than crypt against long because A) You're sligh and taking 2 for their plethora of cheap spells is painful and B) They will probably have to cast deathwish, draining their life total even more.  So, run either or, but both takes up too much sideboard space that could be used to improve other matchups.  R+R and scald are great, what's BEB?  Do you mean REB?  If so then that's a pretty good slot, it hits a tog and can back up your scald if you side both in.  I'd like to see scrolls in the SB, but I know you don't like 'em.  Ah well, that's my take.

[Tha Gunslinga]

I played Ankh-Sligh for a while, and Scald never worked for me.  Either my opponent wasn't playing enough islands, or they could counter it.  I played around with Sirocco for a bit, and abandoned Scald on the theory that Ankh-Sligh is already geared to beat control, and there's no point in having an anti-control SB.  I would definitely run Crypt, as combo kills aggro.  Furthermore, it's nice in the random Reanimator match, which I discovered when I was faced with an Akroma and had no way to stop it.  Rack and Ruin is nuts, and I've always like REB.  The 8 blast plan is not something I'd recommend, however, since the blasts are too reactive--not a good thing in this deck.  You'll either be tapped out when they cast that REB-able spell, or you'll kill your tempo holding mana open for REB.

[Bram]

Here is Dan Cato's PT New Orleans deck, note the 8 Mountains

You're right. I looked at the wrong deck. I looked at the 8 mountain, 4 Mire deck to calculate it. In all fairness, Ric runs 10 mountains, a red Mox and a Lotus, which is basically 12 sources of R, too, so the numbers still stand.

If I follow this correctly, half of the time slith and pillage are going to sit dead in his hand the first several turns, where most magic games are decided.

True, but also: when playing control you only have a 40% chance of having a FoW on hand on turn 1. This means you outright lose against really good combo 60% of the time. It's all very relative.

but in a deck that depends on having RR to cast key spells, I'd say a one half chance of getting what you want early is not good enough.

You just proved my point. 'I'd say that....' I'm not saying his mana base is good or bad, but that it's all subjective. If the RR spell he plays on T2 would be a game breaker, I'd say a >50% chance of being able to play it is pretty decent.

I'm not defending Ric's build since I know fuck all about Ankh Sligh (I enjoy playing good decks myself ; I'm just defending the mathz0r.

[Lyhrrus]

vs. Dragon, Ankh Sligh has several cards that innately go against dragon, provided that they don't go off right away.  If you have an active Ankh, they must play necromancy on your turn, which leaves them "vulnerable" to bolt + fireblast... (not the greatest odds mind you)  But then they just side in all the huge fat game 2.  -_-

Rector Trix is about the same.  I really don't see Pillar helping all that much, as they dig with necro, or yawgmoth's bargain, then Illusions + Donate.  REB is better for this matchup than Crypt or Pillar.  (I'm not sure what other win condition Trix runs).

Long...  I don't really know.  No one plays Long in my area, but I would suspect that LongCombo eats Sligh for breakfast.  I'd say forget about siding in for Long and improve your other matchups, unless Deathlong is making a big comeback in your area.  Maybe side in proxied Lotus to have burn in response to Death Wish???  


I mentioned this in another post, but I was wondering after Darksteel, why not run Chimeric Egg?  Andro, I'd like a more complete answer to your thoughts on it rather than just "eh, no".

[Androstanolone]

I played long.dec last night, and I lost round 1, after siding in pillars I proceeded to win two games in a row.  A single match is not proof, but it illustrates my point that long simply cannot go off under a pillar.  I admit pillar is less useful against trix and dragon, particularly dragon.  Plus long is less prevalent in general, especially in less competitve metas, so I'd say crypts are his best bet.  Pillar punishes them for fast mana for hardcasting bargain or rector and crypt forces them to use fast mana to do these things.   Also crypts don't lose any tempo and are pretty much the fastest answer there is, which is exactly what you need against combo.  Also, I don't sideboard REB for the very reason mentioned, it's too reactive, scald is a proactive SB.  Also, sligh does need a boost from the SB, because control will be bringing in BEB (or even chill).  Since they become more powerful against you post SB, you need to become roughly more powerful in proportion to still have the same chances of winning round 2 as round 1.  Scald is a great card, mine gets fowed all the time against control, which is perfectly fine, not just fine but great .  +1 card advantage and an extra damage against control?  Yes plz.  One that resolves is just sekzi.  

In case anyone doesn't know:

Chimeric egg:  artifact, 3cc

When your opponent plays a non artifact spell put a charge counter on chimeric egg.  Remove 3 charge counters from chimeric egg:  Chimeric egg becomes a 6/6 artifact creature with trample until end of turn.  

One of the standards by which we gauge cards in T1 is by asking, "Is it better than another card?"  Well I'll compare this card to a similar one, ball lightning.  

Similarities

-Both are basically a one shot deal for 6 damage
-Both are 3cc making them MD targets
-Both are vulnerable to popular creature removal (STP and fire/ice)

Differences

-Ball lightning deals the damage now, its major advantage is that it can take your opponent off guard, egg gives them 3 spells to set up.
-In addition to being vulnerable to fire/ice and STP, chimeric egg is also vulnerable to any number of artifact h8 running around
-Ball lightning requires RRR instead of just 3

Pro's of egg over ball lightning:

-Easier on the mana curve

Cons of egg over ball lightning:

-Ungodly slow in a format like T1
-An artifact

Basically you have taken a decent card, ball lightning, and stripped away the things that it has going for it.  It's speed/suprise value, and the fact that it isn't an artifact (which is always a plus in the current T1).  For all this, all you get is an easier casting cost.  The fact that egg is reusable is irrelevant in T1, most likely your opponent will simply win with their third spell or tutor/wish for disenchant/artifact mutation/naturalize/STP/fire and ice/h8 etc.  Egg is strictly worse than ball lightning, if you want a 6 damage trampler then increase your mountain count as close to 20 as you can and replace a  finisher with ball light, or firecat even, though again morphing takes away some of ball's suprise/quickness value.  Either way egg is strictly inferior.

@bram:  it's all str8

[Tha Gunslinga]

vs. Dragon, Ankh Sligh has several cards that innately go against dragon, provided that they don't go off right away.  If you have an active Ankh, they must play necromancy on your turn, which leaves them "vulnerable" to bolt + fireblast... (not the greatest odds mind you)  But then they just side in all the huge fat game 2.  -_-

My brother played Ankh-Sligh at Gencon last year.  He faced Dragon, and lost.  The guy went off with an Ankh on the table.  However, he stacked all the damage, then Necromancied and won.

Long...  I don't really know.  No one plays Long in my area, but I would suspect that LongCombo eats Sligh for breakfast.  I'd say forget about siding in for Long and improve your other matchups, unless Deathlong is making a big comeback in your area.  Maybe side in proxied Lotus to have burn in response to Death Wish???  

Combo beats aggro.  It's a fact of life.  All you can hope for is a god draw of strip effects and mox monkeys.  Or hope that they somehow fuck it up.  I had an Academy player go off first-turn while I was playing Ankh-Sligh.  He dropped a land, played some artifacts out, then played Mind's Desire.  It revealed 6 lands, including his Academy.  With Academy removed from the game, and no hand, he conceded.

I mentioned this in another post, but I was wondering after Darksteel, why not run Chimeric Egg?  Andro, I'd like a more complete answer to your thoughts on it rather than just "eh, no".

It's too unreliable.  Ball Lightning is the same thing, essentially, but it costs more red mana.  Ball hits consistently, however, and this thing most likely won't get counters until it's too late.  Egg doesn't even activate for artifact spells, which means a handful of Moxen won't do anything.  3 mana is too slow, anyway.  Drain bait=bad.

[Androstanolone]

Just 1 thing, if you're running a "gamebreaker" as bram said, why not run more ways to cast it quickly?  Certainly one could do better than 50% if the spell will break the game open in your favor, 50% = not enough.

How does dragon stack the damage?  I know how dragon works, but under a laquatus mill you have to face your draw phase before you lose.  How does dragon force you to draw a card you don't have at instant speed, before damage resolution?  If they use bazaar to cycle through their library they can't ancestral recall you...  I'm assuming dragon runs some alternate win condition I'm not aware of.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Just 1 thing, if you're running a "gamebreaker" as bram said, why not run more ways to cast it quickly?  Certainly one could do better than 50% if the spell will break the game open in your favor, 50% = not enough.

How does dragon stack the damage?  I know how dragon works, but under a laquatus mill you have to face your draw phase before you lose.  How does dragon force you to draw a card you don't have at instant speed, before damage resolution?  If they use bazaar to cycle through their library they can't ancestral recall you...  I'm assuming dragon runs some alternate win condition I'm not aware of.

Well, first of all, this was back in August, so the deck was different than the current one.  It ran Ghitu Fire, which kills immediately.

However, they could always play Ancestral Recall, targeting you, put that on the stack, then mill your library.  Or Stroke/Ghitu/whatever you to death.  Ankh is like Planar Void:  damn good, but not effective enough to count on consistently.

[Androstanolone]

Yes I already mentioned that they could target you with ancestral, but dragon cycles through its deck with bazaar.  They can't mill through to get ancestral, so they'd have to draw it or tutor for it which A) slows them down and B) is less likely and C) takes more cards to pull off.  Ghitu fire would work though, it's a dependable alternate win condition.  

Lavamancers have continued to stay in my ankh sligh in place of gorilla shaman.  Besides the fact that the extra reusable burn is very nice (especially since it can hit creatures or players), I'm keeping it in based strictly on my personal princples of sligh.  Basically a proactive answer/disruptor is always better than a reactive/stall answer, and that cheap, fast damage is more important than conditional disruption.  Shaman are good, no doubt about it, an early waste/monky can delay your opponent a turn or two easy.  But lavamancers are extra burn and creature removal, as such they are a more proactive addition and less conditional.  Shaman eating moxen later in the game is nearly irrelevant, only in the first few turns is mana important enough for shaman to make a big impact.  Lavamancer, on the other hand, is far from irrelevant mid to late game.  So far my tests are showing that 'mancer has a wider "window of opportunity" in which he makes a significant impact.  Every little bit of damage affects the game significantly for the sligh player, and is more important than winning the occasional game on mana screw.  I'd like to thank Rane for prompting me to test mancers, I've been meaning to for a while but never really got around to it.  Happy discussing all.



- Androstan

[Tha Gunslinga]

Lavamancer is real good.  I run a set maindeck, and they not only wreak havoc against aggro, they act as more reliable (and cheaper) Cursed Scrolls late-game against control.  Nice synergy with Fireblast, but as with the rest of the deck, Fire/Ice bait.  I wouldn't recommend using them with Barbarian Ring, for obvious reasons, but then again, I've never liked Ring.

[Fëanor]

@Gunslinger: You use a whole set? Sytupal did so during his burn days, but I'm wondeing whether it would be a good idea or bad idea to include all four. If you would have easily included 4 Scroll then yes it makes sense. Always nice to have a new commentor. Someone who is bored enough to read all nine pages or so...    Thanks for the input.

@Androstan: You took how many munkys out for how many 'Mancers? Your point makes complete sense, but 2 munkys is harder to get in your opening hand than 4, and if you do thatm you might as well not run them at all. That is I think the only reason why I play with four munkys. Is that a bad thing ...?

Yeah, due to the comments above, the egg has no place in T1 competitive. Infact I'd go even further and say, the same reason why I am afraid to play Scroll, is the same reason I'd be afraid to play any other artifact, esp and artifact that takes a while to be activated.