Ankh Sligh

[Androstanolone]

btw, null rod doesn't, in any way, help you against chalice, vandal does.

[Fëanor]

Ah, finally an answer, Thanks Andros.

ok, so Blood Moon are going into SB. makes sense since while all decks play non-basic, i hate to run into such little burn....

null rod. hm...i realized i wouldnt have too much trouble with slaver if i dropped my burn at the right time (EARLY!). most of the time, people will play moxlotus goodness first turn, so null rod is useless against them anyway. Plus it is true that i never run into problems attacking. its easy to swing with just about anything and people forget how important my cadets/pups/munkys are.

ill try vandal, i must admit they've been in my binder all this time..............

i thought playing without a major defense might lose me the game due to fast decks that win no matter how much damage hits them, but MDing more burn makes all the sense in the world.

WW: not a problem in my area. if it were id go with bombs.
Arc lightning: tried it, it was fun, killed things, too slow, sorcery, no go...
as for aggro in general, i usually dont have a problem with it. i run burn and usually its enough.
pillar huh? well its worth a try, i never really warmed up to pillar, but at two mana, it aint so bad...i can see a lock already (waste, ankh, pillar, take four....)

ill be back later to comment on other things if ive missed something, thanks guys.

peace

[Androstanolone]

Sounds good Feanor, I'm glad you took the time to read through my post, while I didn't mean for it to be it turned out like a little mini primer.  Blood moon in the SB is a solid choice since there is an overabundance of nonbasics around.  Since keeper/tog are the main decks running nonbasics, if it's not isochron scepter keeper you can probably just side out the vandals and bring in blood moons.  You have a few less 1/1 threats, but you bring in potential game enders, so whatever floats your boat.  You'd also bring in scald/REB, probably REB to back up your blood moon, and take out the 4 incins since they're your slowest burn.  If you're going to SB blood moon, that's how I'd do it, though sligh has a decent chance against these decks already, and SBed scald/REB is all I've ever needed.

Yeah, that's basically what I've been saying, you're an aggro deck, you drop your creatures/burn early and put them on a short clock,  you nickle and dime them so they don't quite see it coming, 3 damage here, 2 from a pup here, then a less experienced player is suprised when their life's at 6 and you swing with a factory then fireblast, you make them nervous, induce play errors, and generally drop their life total as fast as you can without overextending.  For instance, you wanna save up a chain/bolt/incin against mud until you're going to win, because welder's not staying on the table long enough to do anything.  That slows them down more than a blood moon or null rod ever would (some stax SB blood moon, it's not that disruptive).  You also don't keep more than 2 creatures on the board against keeper/tog unless keeper has no white or tog has no green (in which case they are cut off from their mass removal).  Even if you manage to waste an essential land, I'd be careful about dropping the 3rd critter unless you have a very solid hand and the extra damage will speed up the kill by a turn.  

Yes Vandal ^_^.

Defense = nt.  Your defense is "remove target opponent".  Your weapons are lots of fast damage and well placed/timed wastelands, shamans, and vandals.  

I'm glad to hear that WW's not in your meta, it sucks for sligh, silver knight's are just a big pain in the ass.  And some MD true believer, which forces you to use burn on their creatures when you'd rather just whore it all and try to burn their life total down to 0.  It's just a smelly deck for red to face.  

Yeah that's about my thoughts on arc lightning, it's a sorc, it pings stuff and is cool when it does, but it's a sorc, and it's 3cc, and not generally useful enough.  12 burns to remove early creatures and fireblast/Pop to finish is simply all you need.  

Yeah pillar, your ownly weapon against combo, SB 4 if you expect to see combo.  It synergizes well with sligh, you get bolted by your own spells but with wastelands/ankhs out, plus a pillar, you put on a LOT of pressure.  It's not a bad strategy, and there are sligh variants based around abusing pillar, you can check them out if you want, they can be h8ful but I don't think as consistent/smooth as standard ankh sligh.  But, I haven't ever played pillar sligh, so don't take my word for it, make one and have a field day .  

I look forward to hearin' from you guys again, lata.



- Androstan

[Lyhrrus]

I'm not sure how good pillar is in the current meta.  It's an anti-Long card.  Pillar hurts you more vs welderMUD and TnT.  As for keeper, you should already have enough pressure.  I would imagine Fish and Landstill also take advantage of the fact that you're hurting yourself more, though I haven't tested out against those two decks.

A quick question to those people running factories and fireblasts maindeck.  How well does your manabase support fireblasts?  Yes, fireblast is a finisher card, but I still feel that it's too much of a "dead" card if you draw it early on.  Also, PoP has horrible synergy with factories (and tombs and the other.  One of sligh's strengths is its invulerability to non-basic hate.

@Andro:  Only one comment about SB, blasts are only effective in bunches.  Siding less than 7 blasts is ineffective.  Legend has an article on it here, and I've tried with only 4.

[Androstanolone]

@Lyhrrus about SBed blasts, yeah running less than 7 is mostly ineffective.  If you SB in 8 then you have a >80% chance of drawing one in your opening hand, when you start falling below 7 then the consistency in which you will draw it is less and you risk not having the impact you want/need.  Also, these blue based control decks tend to be your better matchups if you play right, they simply cannot counter every threat and yours is a deck full of threats.  This is why I only dedicate 4 slots in the SB to these matchups, and scald is simply the best card to fill this slot.  It goes right in in place of incinerate so my mana curve is not altered at all, and if I do draw it in the opening hand it's either and auto Fow or deals much more damage than an incinerate would have.  Even turn 3 or 4 it can easily deal more than 3 though it has less of a chance of resolving.

Pillar is an anti-combo card, watch trix try to go off under it.  Even dragon will get bolted at least a few times by the pillar.  You don't side this in against wMUD and TNT, ever (maybe you're referring to "pillar sligh", in which case I agree with you, I can't see how it'd be so hot).  Against combo you don't really care what your life total is, as long as there's is zero before yours.  

On running fireblasts/factories MDed, I've been doing it for a while now and I'm never changing.  Fireblasts are GOOD.  If you draw them early they don't just "sit in your hand", not anymore than the rest of your burn does.  I donno how you guys strategize, but you whore as much burn in your hand and throw it at them all at once, taking them either completely by suprise or overwhelming their counters so that lethal damage gets through.  Fireblasts win games if you know how to use them.  Every once in a great while you'll get screwed and won't get your two mountains in time, but this is very rare.  It is heavily offset by the ability to simply throw extra burn at your opponent after a barrage of hardcasted burn.  Also, let's say you've been forced to use your bolt spells on creatures so yours could swing, 2 factories activated by two mountains becomes 4 damage, plus any creatures you have out, then those mountains themselves become 4 more damage.  This can *easily* be 10 damage total.  Also, the synergy/tempo/speed generated by the free cost of fireblast and the ability to add to your threat density while still running enough mana is fairly dramatic.  Since factories double as extra mana to sink into incinerates, Pops, and moxen shooting shaman, they support your mana base.  Mid game when you're slightly flooded they become threats, thus they support your mana base without sacrificing threat density.

Pop has horrible synergy with factories, oh no I take 2 damage from my factory and you took 6, sounds great to me, since now I can attack with that same factory and deal you two more.  Yes you'll take pain from your own factories but as a general rule the closer your opponent's life total is to zero the better, regardless of your own life total.  I've *NEVER* in all my ankh sligh playing faced a scenario where I'd kill myself with Pop to kill my opponent.  You will simply be able to deal them more damage faster with all your cheap efficient spells.  



- Androstan

[Androstanolone]

one last minor thing on factory, he blocks as a 3/3 for 1 mana, so you can trade him for juggernaut.  My free land (which I already have to much of) and 1 mana for your 4cc 5 power attacker?  Good times, as TNT runs about half as many scary threats as you, though each is more potent, they're less likely to draw another creature you have to deal with (until they get survival out, which sucks, hope you have bolt,bolt,fireblast^_^).

[Fëanor]

hm...interesting posts, lets see if i can respond to them all.... :lol:

ok pillar: well i never really warmed up to pillar as i said earlier, mostly because i never won againnst it, and when i did play it i always lost, but maybe i didnt get the whole strategy to begin with...
so im not sure if i want to put them into my SB. Yes, they're good...i also have very little room in my SB which looks as follows right now.

4 R+R
4 BEB
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Blood Moon

i might not need the crypt depending on what i can get around...see Dragon matchup later on...so I may have extra space there.

Factories: I've tested them and they are hot.......very. They just go so well with my deck, I get the right amount of mana as it stands, and I dont plan on adding Pillage nor Slith ever again. I only really "need" two Mountains, and I can't think of a time when I haven't drawn at least that many. if i dont have the land for Fireblast, by the time its ready to be used (I use up all the other, hotter burn), I have drawn into one.

SB 7-8 BEB, no way man. i dont have the room. One comment was made earlier about the usefulness against tog, and I see that as the only BIG reason to use BEB at all. It has other uses and thats why its auto-SB, but too many can ruin your matchup against so many other decks. plus usually the BEB is just used to drain your counter heavy buddy so you can blood moon and screw him over.

another note on factory if people dont get it...3/3 like Andro. said and a hell of a surprise blocker against poor fish or other inexperienced players....."Yes, your Silver Knight goes bye-bye"

Dragon matchup::::::::::
I played Sytupal's somewhat individualistic, Drag.dec. We only had time for a couple rounds. Here's what happened:

Game one: early pressure with burn and a Waste on his little old Bazzar...Turn three Ankh, still dealt some nasty burn anyway. Turn four swing with my beasties and Bolt, Bolt, Blast for the win.

Game two: Screwed myself over...... . Yep I came in and sat down to play not realizing I hadn't put in my Vandals, but more importantly, hadn't taken out my Blood Moon. Opening hand was slow as hell, with BM, Bolt, Mishra's, 4 mountain, ewwww. I hit him with my Factory second turn, and mooned third....realizing I was very stupid and now couldnt attack with my workers. Sure he couldnt "attune" anymore, but I had just fucked myself out of steam...the game lasted sooooooo many turns, mostly because I got an ankh into play before he could find the combo, and he had to find a more creative way to kill me....dancing his Laquatus into play and milling worked a little, then he got my wonderful munky (which he had strategically milled) onto his side and began to chomp away. Had to blast the Munky so he didn't have time to kill the Ankh, but later the game got too boring and he just decided to HARD CAST DRAGON!!!!!! Swung twice, while my pups watched as it flew overhead...........TIKI becomes sad

oh well, they're out now, just goes to how you how bad BMs were in play. now i shall retreat into my slumber and leave TMD people to read and heal. I'll post a slightly altered decklist next time i post. thanks all, including those who are still with me 7-8 pages later, Lhyrrus, Androstanolone, lilmidget and those who posted earlier who helped as well...im not forgetting you, just too lazy to go to my site and look up names. Of course you're free to keep the posting going, comments are always helpful. esp to someone who's never played Ankh Sligh before this.

peace

[Robert the Swordsman]

Well, not being very experienced in the way of Goblins or any form of red sligh, I can't offer much, but...

...Pyrostatic Pillar is one of the most impressively damaging cards available. Against control (or anything else, for that matter), you'd be surprised how much damage will start piling up; Ancestrall, Brainstorm, Accumulated Knowledge, and Intuition (not to mention the few that I'm probably forgetting) all deal damage to the caster, and when they play a couple of Brainstorms and Intuition for some AKs and cast one, it is extremely devastating. It just does not give them the time they need to set up.

I personally would really, really recommend this card. Try it out a bit.

[Androstanolone]

thy hath discovered the power of the factory and the fireblast, feanor .  Everything you said was pretty much spot on as far as the mana base and casting fireblast.  

Yeah 7-8 slots is way too many SB spaces for cards that all do the exact same things.  Plus, they're all cards that push through threats, REB and pyro don't actually deal any damage themselves.  Scald is the anti-control SB card, there's simply nothing better, not to mention that once you side in scald you now have two "2 drops" (ankh and scald) that they MUST counter or face certain incineration.  That's 8 cards that are absolute must counters instead of 4, you hit that >80% ratio without devoting such massive SB space.  

Hehe, f u Silver Knight


On Game one, sounds like you got the classic sweet sligh kill, 1st turn threat, 2nd turn waste their important land drop threat, 3rd turn ankh, 4th turn a final swing and bolt, bolt, fireblast.  Nothing he could do about it.  Feels good.

Game two, that sucks, but ya live and learn.  And yeah blood moon shuts down your own factories :/.  Something I forgot to mention, and also your own wastelands, which are a vital part of sligh's disruption.  A well timed (and a bit lucky) wasteland can slow an opponent down for several turns while he waits for the right color of mana.  

Wow hardcast dragon... that's just nutz.  

I look forward to seein' your new list man,  As far as your SB goes, I'd take out the basts for scalds, take the R+R to 3, and take out blood moons for 4 pillars.  But your SB's your business and your meta, I gotta go to bed, been awake for like 60 hours.



- Androstan

[Lyhrrus]

Pillars really aren't that good.  Only if they use the Intuition/AK engine does it show its usefulness.  Drawn in multiples makes things generally worse.  With every spell sligh casts, you take 2 damage.  That means you're putting yourself on a 10 turn clock at the very least.  Double pillar out means a 5 turn clock.  You'd really better be ahead in the life race to use pillar.

[lilmidget]

Pillars really aren't that good.  Only if they use the Intuition/AK engine does it show its usefulness.  Drawn in multiples makes things generally worse.  With every spell sligh casts, you take 2 damage.  That means you're putting yourself on a 10 turn clock at the very least.  Double pillar out means a 5 turn clock.  You'd really better be ahead in the life race to use pillar.

uhhh...you're playing sligh. if you're not ahead in life, you have a serious problem and pillar damage is the least of your worries.

when you have a pillar in play, you don't want to continually cast spells to kill yourself. cast creatures and just beat down with them. your opponent will have to decide which is worse: pillar burn to kill your creatures or creature beat down.

[Rane]

Null Rod and Pillar are all Sligh has against good combo.  That's the reason to SB them.  Pillar just so happens to have a couple of other uses .

Also the problem with PoP in most of these builds is that with wastelands and all the mana denial it's most likely to do 2-4 dmg only.  Cursed Scroll is a LOT better than it gets credit for...

[Fëanor]

I said it before, Stix and Scolls are just a waste of turns. why worry about the future if youve got your opponents life to deal with? Im trying to find Lavamancers so i can try them out. at least they would be helpful.

My current version will really rely on a turn one Munky/Vandal against chalice, but I havent seen any in quite a while.

I will try Pillars in place of the Crypts for now

TIKI's Greatly Improved Deck of Wonderfully Unimaginable Fun

//0cc
R mox ruby
//1cc
4 lightning bolt
3 mox munky
4 jackal pup
4 chain lightning
4 goblin vandal
2 mogg fanatic ('Mancer)
//2cc
4 PoP
4 incinerate
4 ankh of mishra
//free or 6cc
3 fireblast
//Land
14 mountain
4 wasteland
4 mishra's factory
R strip

SB:
4 BEB
4 R+R
4 Pyro Pillar
3 blood moon

Tell me how it looks.

Peace

[Androstanolone]

Hey Feanor, looking a lot better, trading the crypts for the pillars is probably a good move too since most combo decks rely on their graveyards, so they'll go in for the same thing.  Still no cadets and only three monkies I see .  You're a little mana heavy, sligh tries to closely follow the 20-20-20 rule, so I'd cut a mountain and a factory, which will put you at 22, you need a little >20 with the factories.  I'd also cut a Pop, and add 3 more critters.  It's looking so much cleaner, sleaker, and more efficient now though, without all that slow unreliable h8.  

Sticks are bad, scrolls aren't that bad at all, but have mostly been replaced by things that are simply better.  The additions of Pop and ankh have pretty much kept scroll out of the sligh MD for a while, but don't completely dismiss the ability to deal consistent, colorless damage over and over.  It's still a good card.

Man I do tend to go on, thanks for putting up with my ramblingly long posts.



- Androstan

[Androstanolone]

Just noticed some new posts, and I agree with lilmidget and Rane, though rod is simply inferior to pillar in sligh's SB.  Price of progress won't always be the bomb you want it to be but it'll always eek out extra damage, scroll will never be an instant bomb but can deal more damage than Pop, or it can just be a dead draw.  Scroll does get underrated but I think the meta is more suited to Pop right now, with SBed scrolls for weenie h8 (and especially against WW).  Umm, that's all for now.

[Fëanor]

Mkay. We already know stix in Ankh Sligh suck ass. The scrolls however are a different story.

Scroll can be played first turn, already a heavy lean on mana curve to 1cc (think chalice or keg even). Scroll can sit in play on first turn, and youve not played a creature so you can deal damage right away second turn. You have not played Munky or Vandal so you can defend against art fun, and you have not left your potential Waste untapped depending on the deck you play.
Turn two, you have a scroll in play, good for you, watch it sit in play this whole turn not being used. play another land and Ankh, or maybe a creature or two, either way you only have half the deck in swing. creatures will deal your opponent damage next turn, Ankh can stall your opponent possibly. Lets play Ankh.
Turn three, oh look you play a land (18) and you now have to decide whether you want to hit with scroll, play creatures, or play burn. Scroll wont do much with three cards in hand, playing creatures means you get to deal damage next turn, and playing burn means your opponent has less of an initiative to play land. If you scroll, you have a 33% chance of dealing two damage. if you play a Munky a Pup and a Bolt, you just dealt three and put threats into play. Too bad you wasted first turn on scroll, you could have been attacking. Meanwhile, Tog hits you for 300 next turn, sorry you lose, And your opponent asks you why you wasted turn one.

idk if that changed anyone's mind, but i dont see a place in this deck for it, not without more moxen etc.

i play three munkys and four vandals, which i think should be enough. chalice should not be a problem as far as i see it right now. maybe i should play more munky than vandal???? idk...
as for cadets, um no, four 2/1s should be enough. i want to test mancers in for the moggs and see how solid my creature base will be before i add even more creatures.

The land: ill work on that and see what i can do, and get back to you, i dont need that much land ive noticed, though i never get manascrewed...

peace

[Rane]

That's got to be the stupidest example I've ever heard.  No offense but that is downright arrogance and stupidtity.  That's like saying; "Imagine if your opponent was at 3, with no hand, and player Keeper you top-decked a Force of Will?  FORCE OF WILL SUX, RUN LIGHTNING BOLT!"

No one in their right mind would drop a scroll first turn, and I always have 1-2 creatures in my starting hand and perhaps in ADDITION a scroll.  A REAL play with scrolls is roughly;

1)
Mountain, Pup/Cadets
2)
Wasteland, 'Waste', Vandal/Monkey/Chain/Bolt
3)
Mountain/Factory, Ankh
4)
Mountain/Waste, Scroll, drop other critters or burn if you have or activate scroll
5)
From here on inwards scroll is two dmg a turn which is GREAT because you WILL have three mana lying around.

Scrolls normally take the place of Rods, or in your case critters.  Sligh really shouldn't run more than 16 critters, 12-16 is what most Sligh has.  Ankh Sligh is GENERALLY;

8x1-drop, 2-power
4x1-drop, artifact disrupt
4x1-drop, artifact disrupt OR Lavamancer OR Scroll OR Reckless Charge
4xAnkh
12xStandard Burn
3-4xFinisher
3-4xFinisher OR Scroll OR Rod
20-22xMana

This is exactly why some cards appear in almost all Sligh decks;
4xJackal Pup
4xGoblin Cadets
4xGorilla Shaman (although I prefer Vandal)
4xGrim Lavamancer
4xNull Rod (I prefer Scroll)
4xAnkh of Mishra
4xLightning Bolt
4xChain Lightning
4xIncinerate
3xFireblast
3xPrice of Progress
2xMishra's Factories
4xWasteland
1xStrip Mine
1xMox Ruby
14xMountian

Not my version, not my opinion, just a basic skeleton for Ankh Sligh that is quite popular.

[Androstanolone]

Listen to Rane Feanor, he knows what he's talking about.  If a sligh player drops a scroll 1st turn he either got a horrible hand or is a crappy player.  The builds he presented are typical sligh builds, I like mine better, with 8 MD chalice answers and vandals that give me a chance versus the evil $74X.  Plus running 16 1 drops means you never miss a 1st turn threat, and rarely miss a 2nd turn threat.  Cadets are yes, sligh's already slow enough comparatively without any power, at least run all the 2/1's for R.  Lavamancers are cool but conditional, normally games shouldn't last long enough for the graveyard to build up.  Anyway, the 2/1's are mandatory in sligh, the other 2 vary greatly though I think the shaman/vandals are practically standard as the other 2 creatures with the field crawling with power and artifacts.  But play as you wish.



- Androstan

[Rane]

Like I said not my build just a skeleton.  I think you underestimate Grim's though.  They pick off welders, force Mask players to turn their creatures face-up, make sure Shade must always be supported by untapped swamps, take out Hypnot's, are the bane of Negotor's, are TECH in the mirror, can pick off Decree tokens, are a great threat against Boa's and other regen 'cause they need to effectivly regen twice, most importantly they are an unblockable Cadets!  I take it the only reason you disapprove is because of the constant need for fuel, but with Wastelands, Strip, Bolts, Chains, Rates, PoP's, Fireblast, and the occasional dead creature, I seem to never run out.  Big pointer is to choose your battles, if you can attack with him for 1 do so, when they must defence or you have some SERIOUS fuel then go two dmg a turn.  Late game with Scrolls 4 dmg a turn really does end it w/o the help of ANY TD's.  If you draw a blast that's eight+ more mana for Mancer if you need another turn.  They seriously are tech, test em thoroughly.

Note:  I believe it is $T4KS - which whilst being STAKS is also the acronym for 'The Four Thousand Dollar Soloution' .

[Fëanor]

Teehee, it took me a few seconds to get $74X too...those 3l33t5

Okay Rane your pont is valid as well. I still don't want to throw in such a slow card. By all means, Cursed Scroll is actually one of the best continual burns out there (if not THE best). Grims are just the right speed for me. Yes, they do require steam, but I never have less than two cards in graveyard on turn three, which was when you were planning on putting the scroll into play anyway. Technically if Grim always satisfies the conditional, how could paying one for two damage be worse than paying three? (I've seen Mancers kicking ass in gay red for quite a while and it just makes sense here).

Before I go further, I want to add: There is a minor problem with the mana. I have enough mana, but it uaually takes me one turn longer to get the extra red mana I need. For starters I'll try going down to three Factories, but I'm wondering, now that my Ankh strategy is solid, whether I can afford to take out a Waste. This comment stemmed from a problem I was having, not with tempo, but more with the fact that I wanted to play more than one spell pr turn. Getting everything in my opening hand out into play is a hassle when I can only play one card with R in it's cost at a time.

The munkys and Vandals: Sometimes I side out the Vandals against combo. I'm thinking I'll only need three, and then up my Munkys to four again. I should not need 8 creature based art h8s maindeck. That's what the SB is for. 7 (as with the mana elves of old) almost always guarantees one opening hand.

I'll put in Cadets over the Moggs until I find the Mancers...

Thanks for the continuing help yo.

Peace

[Androstanolone]

I've never tested 'mancers, but my intuition tells me they can be very good, but I'd never replace cadets, vandals, or shaman (obviously not pups) with them.  I might test a 'mancer version though, just to see what happens.  I'm not sure if they'll stay out long enough to carry their weight, a 2/1 cadet deals the same damage each turn for no mana and no condition and vandals/shaman make an almost unwinnable matchup somewhat hopeful pre SB.  We shall see.

On the mana base, yes you'll have that problem now and then, which is why I stay at 3 factories max and sometimes play 2.  It's hard to say which is the right #.  Don't lose any wastelands, they're vital disruption and under ankh a wasteland = 2 extra damage.  

If you're going to side out jewelry/art smashers against control, you need to side in a different creature that's good against control, such as cadets or mancers.  When SBing against control you don't want to lose any threats, it's when SBing for bigger aggro or combo that you can afford to take out threats for more disruption.  It depends on if you're playing the aggro deck or the control deck, relatively.  I <3 scald because it's a much more potent 2cc threat against control than incinerate, so it's a perfect switch.  Also the shaman/vandals can deny them mana, so I see no reason to side them out.  Thus, I have the same number of threats but I have increased the total potency post SB.  

You're welcome.



- Androstan

[Rane]

Whatever you do don't cut Wastes, you'd cut all factories before you cut a waste.  I think more than 8 colourless sources is a no-no.  Remember this includes things like sol ring.  So Wastes+Strip is automatic 5, then you can have 3 factories or 2 with a Sol Ring.Then make sure you have those 14xR (13xMounatin+1xRuby) and you're set.  With this mana base I RARELY get screwed.

Vandals are better vs most Control and Combo, but Grim is better against pretty much all aggro and some control and combo versions.  Intuition is normally right but there are some deceptivly good cards.  Grim is one of them, just like Scroll was.  Scroll is NOT slow.  It's a common mistake, but '1cc:Deal 2 dmg to any target every turn after this one, pay 3 during your upkeep or it turns off for a turn' is not slow.  It just looks like it hogs mana and is expensive, but you won't have anything to play anyway.  Scrolls and Grim's will win you games that you would have absoluty NO HOPE of winning.  Sui using Shade is the same.  Looks 'slow' but is seriously unbelievable.  You don't have to do what I do, but for reference I MD Scrolls and sub in Null Rod's vs most Control and Combo, or vice versa depending on what I'm gonna be playing against mostly.  Grim is faster than Vandal normally, and if you have Rod's then Vandal's are just overkill.  However they are still great cards that I will always deem useful.

Scald is tech.  Scald vs Bloodmoon is another matter though.  Scald is definatly better in their respective uses, but BM just affects sooooooo many more decks.  WIth SB limited to 15 slots, I have never been able to choose.

And help is what the Forums are here for.  We're all just tryin to learn .

EDIT: They really have to get a less-demented winking emoticon.

[Androstanolone]

BM = skip your turn, your opponent adds 3 to their mana pool at their next main phase.  Or if you're lucky win the game.

Scald = skip your turn, remove a blue card in their hand from the game, deal them 1 damage, and get rid of a counter.  Or if you're lucky it says you and your opponent skip your next turns, your opponent takes X damage, where X is however many lands he has to tap to deal with this enchantment.  They lose a turn and take damage, and it diverts attention from your creatures, which they normally would have tried to deal with.  In effect, scald wins games and it doesn't mess with your mana curve, AND it is a "sligh" card, i.e. a form of aggressive, proactive control.  

Lavamancer is tech in the mirror but come on, he is getting burned 9/10.  In other aggro matchups creatures are too big, juggernauts, sui-chis, roar of the wurms, arrogant wurms, even basking rootwalla evades a lavamancer.  If there were more weenie aggro in the meta, and less artifacts, then yeah he'd go in for vandals.  But my vandals have torn down too many big artifacts (including 1st turn juggernauts who were forced to attack) for me to let them go.  It's pretty cool when your 1/1 vandal kills a juggernaut for R: Tap, and you get to whore all your burn in your hand.  He also likes demolishing gilded lotuses, tangle wires, smokestacks, isochron scepters, etc.  all for just R: Tap.  ^_^



- Androstan

P.S. ph34r the winking emoticon of hell

[Fëanor]

So I think the conclusion we have come to between Scroll and Mancer is that they are both exqually as good depending on meta. In this case, the Mancer excells (Plainswalker, Road Trippin', Sytupal, Rob, am I right?)
In scrubby I'd have played the scroll since it owns WW...

I'm the only Ankh Sligh player i know in my general area. Not that there arent others, but I havent come across a real mean burn deck...yet (in other words, I dont know enough about the mirror to say Mancer wont still kick).

I must say, Scald is a juicy card. I Think though BM has many more uses than just against Keeper/control. Still Scald would seem more fit in my deck, due to the casting cost wonderfulnessitynesslyness. I shall ponder this card.

I'll give a recent decklist soon. Tell me, would it be better to edit the decklist above or to print out a brand new one?

It's not just the winker that looks gay, it's all of them. I liked the old ones better. At least make it so the one rolling its eyes doesn't look like its got real bad acne!

[Rane]

Mancer in the mirror is a lot more valuable than you think.  If he get's burned he just saved you from taking 3 dmg.  In the Mirror vs any Sligh-type deck, Ankh is the one that's most geared for late game - especially if you have Scrolls and Grim's.  If they have to waste a bolt on Grim instead of Pup then fine.  If nothing else he stops your opponents deck from going all to the head after Ankh+Scroll takes out their ground game.  I've always been a big advocator of Vandal's but Mancer's really are quite good, although some meta's do just need Vandal's instead.  The thing I never liked about Vandal's is that you aren't doing dmg whilst disrupting.  Mox Mnkey attacks for 1 AND kills an artifact, mancer deals 2 dmg unblockable, Vandal is more like BM.

On the note of BM like I said I have always thought Scald a better card so you don't have to prove that to me, it's just that BM hurts sooooo many decks, whilst Scald only hurts a select few.  With a SB of only 15 cards and trying to improve every matchup, it's kinda hard.  What I'm saying is I don't know if improving your chances by 80% against say 20% of the decks around, is as good as improving your chances 50% against say 80% of the decks around.  Which the goes to the question of... why not just MD BM if it's good against so many decks?  But I really hate having cards MD that are just jank against some decks.  E.g PoP, BM, RnR, Null Rod... I love all of these cards to death but some matchups they just suck.

As for Scroll that card is just too good for me not to use.  I bring in Null ROd's when I have to but otherwise, dam if people only playtested them stilll instead as seeing them as a gimmick like PoP-on-a-stick.

And yeh, I think we all agree on the emoticons, mods, you listening?

[Androstanolone]

well I guess it just comes down to the fact that I never play against the mirror, and only a random WW every now and then.  But I'd like to echo you on cursed scroll, it is underrated, there are 4 in my SB.  I think 4 is simply mandatory between the MD and SB, and only in the current meta do I SB it.  I had it MDed for the longest time.  I still want to MD it instead of price of progress, since price of progress is dead against a few decks, but usually those decks are ones sligh's good against anyway.  When I play WW, out go 4 Pop, in go 4 scrolls, it's a nice trade.  But yeah, Pop MDed instead of scrolls has irked me for the longest time, I think I'll trade them out for a little while and see what happens.  I tried the lavamancers and was unimpressed, like I said I see a fair amount of stax/wMUD/slaver decks and I need the vandal boost.  The 1 thing that scrolls have against them is that they are an artifact, so it gives people who MD or cunning wish for artifact removal a target.  Not that big of a deal since it's only 1 and doesn't consume resources but it might be nicer in these cases if it was a spell like Pop that did high damage.  I donno, i'm gonna trade out and see.  Great discussions going!



- androstan

[Androstanolone]

Btw, the list you presented Rane has 64 cards, in case someone didn't notice.

[Rane]

If you don't play mirror much your damn lucky!  My biggest problem is the mirror as I'm so geared to beating out the better decks.  Sligh's worst matchup thesedays seems to be other aggro.  Pillar provides an 'answer' to pretty much any deck and I'm considering just 4xMD.  I dealt 18 dmg in one turn with it, then I bolted him .  The only thing it's really bad against is the mirror.  The other various SB cards greatly help most matchups so that you are AT LEAST even after SB'n.  Other aggro however is a different story to combo and control.  Pillar hurts you to much sometimes, PoP can be dead quite often, and most of your SB answers don't affect them (Blood Moon, Scald, RnR, ReB's, Null Rod, whatever).  I don't really think this warrants using Pyrokinesis or Lava Dart again, I really can't see those being useful enough, but dam the mirror sux .

[Fëanor]

Ok, now before you look at my deck wondering what the hell I'm doing with only 2 Vandals, I shall explain.

Vandals are nice 1st turn drop against the right deck. Otherwise theyre just useless 1/1 beasties. Id raher smoothen out my mana curve (or at least see if 16 mounatin helps any) than increase my chances of getting a little critter. Besides, if I do see a creature, I'd rather it be a 2/1. I'll report soon on the effect of the changes made.

I took out one Mishra's to see if that would further smoothen red mana flow. I sub'ed the Fans with Cadets because two damage is better than one.

Scald fit both my mana curve as well as was more synergetic with my deck, so out BMs, in Sclads.

Tiki's Red Sligh (Dragon Killer) Mess-With-Me-And-You're-Screwed Deck:

//0cc
R mox ruby
//1cc
4 lightning bolt
4 mox munky
4 jackal pup
4 chain lightning
2 goblin vandal
2 goblin cadets ('Mancer)
//2cc
4 PoP
4 incinerate
4 ankh of mishra
//free or 6cc
3 fireblast
//Land
16 mountain
4 wasteland
3 mishra's factory
R strip

SB:
4 BEB
4 R+R
4 tormod's crypt
3 scald

Peace

[Androstanolone]

Lookin' a lot better than your first list feanor.

Scald > *

I played 5 games against scepter keeper last night and scald got fowed everytime, it was great.  Card advantage for red against control?  yes plz.

Vandals also shined against scepter keeper, obviously.  Even if they don't tear down a scepter, they force the other player to do something other than gain card advantage and board position, like get rid of vandal.

I played with cursed scrolls some, and of course they did well, but I wished they were Pop enough times to keep scroll in the SB.

Continuing tests with lavamancer are keeping him in.  When he comes a little later he really is another 2/1, unblockable too.  He's a useful critter though less useful in multiples, but I have an aversion to running anything but 4 ofs in sligh (other than finishers like Pop or fireblast, and a reusable card like scroll).  He's holding his own so far.  Incidentally, I took out gorilla shaman for him, as vandals are infinitely more powerful in the matchup we're all worried about, $T4X.  It also decreases my # of chalice answers, but chalice is becoming less and less popular in general actually so we'll see.