Deck Discussion, Nether Void: (as requested By Jaco)

[colder]

Hrm... Vampiric Tutor vs. Demonic Consultation.  I'm honestly finding myself at a crossroads on that.  Here's my thoughts:

D.C. gets you the card *now*.  The penalty is that you remove cards in your library from the game.  It's a saviour at a steep cost, but a saviour nonetheless.  I've used it on several occasions in tournaments and although it sometimes hurt, it only ever let me down once.  And it helped me turn the tide of the game in a pinch.  And I got to keep my next draw.  Assuming I would go for a 4-of card in the deck, I usually felt pretty good about using it.  A few times, I went for Nether Void and found myself feeling just a bit creaky about it since I run 3, and hoping to god I didn't get them bunched together in the first 6 or near the bottom of my library (which happened once).  The rationale of not worrying about the cards you're removing is that they're just as good as cards you wouldn't draw anyway - hardly much comfort really, but it's true.  You're not using D.C. with the possibility of the game going on much further.

I never used V.T. in my deck, and the reasoning was always that I would lose a draw because of it.  Also, if you use it on your own turn, you can't get that card until the next turn, which is sometimes just too late - unless you have some other card to draw with, which is still less economical than just gettting the card you need now.  Overall, V.T. is also more expensive: 1 black mana + 2 life to set up the card, plus more mana and life and another card if you're not waiting until your next draw step to draw it.  In the end, the instant speed of it might not be enough to outweigh all the other costs involved.

D.C. is usually your "last, best hope" card, the kind of card you use to seal the game up or save yourself.  V.T. is more open to mis-plays.  I've never used D.C. except for when I'm facing deep shit, while I can imagine myself ruining my own tempo with V.T..

[JACO]

If you read the primer, I know exactly what I'm trying to do. The goal of the deck is to simply keep the opponent off balance long enough to kill them. You don't have to have 4 Sinkholes to do this. Dust Bowl also helps make up for the lack of Sinkholes. More so than ever, this deck is about tempo.

Have you considered cutting Sinkhole altogether?  Perhaps if nothing else you could cut one sinkhole for that 4th wasteland?  You could make space of Demonic Consultation, too.

Actually up until the past month or two, I played the deck with no Sinkholes for about the past 6-8 months. I've only recently added the 2 back in, with the presence of Misdirection becomming less and less rampant.

Demonic Consultation Vs Vamp Tutor

I see a fairly even spread on this issue. Where do you all stand?

Of the two, I would rather run Demonic Consultation. But if I don't have room, I'm not going to make room to run it by cutting a business spell. I guess I follow a similar logic to Raphael Carron (the creator of Parfait and 'Evil Parfait') in that your Tutor type spells are almost never countered, just whatever you Tutor for gets countered. So why cut a business spell and waste tempo when you could just play another business spell instead? I understand the power of an instant speed tutor, but often the loss of half your deck or more (with Demonic Consultation), or the loss of a card in hand (Vampiric Tutor), isn't enough to make up for just casting a straight up business spell (like Nantuko Shade, which is good almost all the time).

One final thought I had:  Would you consider running Mirri's Guile over Sylvan Library?  How often have you spent the 4 life to draw that extra card?  Just a thought.

I wouldn't consider it at all. For me, the whole point of Sylvan Library isn't to just see a couple of extra cards per turn, but rather to draw an extra 1-3 cards during the course of the game. I use the ability almost every game I resolve Sylvan Library.

[EliteForce]

Hi Guys!

Here is my Pernicious Void decklist (which is quite similar to TracerBullet):

Disruption (20):
4x Duress  
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Sinkhole
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Nether Void
2x Null Rod

Creatures (10):
4x Nantuko Shade
3x Hypnotic Specter
3x Withered Wretch

Broken Utility (3):
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Necropotence

Non-Land Mana (5):
4x Dark Ritual
1x Lotus Petal

Land (23):  
10x Swamp
4x Bayou
2x Llanowar Waste
2x Pulluted Delta
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine

Sideboard (15):
3x Choke
3x Contagion
2x Naturalize
2x Planar Void
2x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Null Rod

The only differences are:
First of all i do not have any of the p9.  

Second thing is, that in my opinion i urgently need Null Rods in MD! I sometimes play @ Dülmen where u find a lot of Iso Keeper! Pernicious Deed isn't that good against iso scepter cause its a little bit too slow (3 mana cc and another 2 mana to activate and kill scepter) and secondly u hurt urself by blowing deed for 2 mana! But Null Rod isnt only good against the scepter in this matchup! It also helps against the extra mana acceleration from the jewelry.
Another great point where u need the Null Rods is when your oponent plays with Masticores! Masticore is a very bad guy vs your Nantukos and Hyppies! Yes u can remove his Squee out of the grave via Withered Wretch but this is not always the safest way. Perhaps he has enough mana to kill your Wretch when you are tapped out or something else.
For the MD Null Rods i cut the Demonic Consultation (i / we only run 10 creatures!! to risky!!) and the 4th deed.
What do u guys think on this? Are the Rods worth it?

Third thing is that i have 61 cards in my MD. This really suxx but i do not know what to cut! Could u guys please help me? Perhaps i should cut the Null Rods for the 4th Deed and then i am at 60 cards?!

-EliteForce-

[Yare]

Hi Guys!

Third thing is that i have 61 cards in my MD. This really suxx but i do not know what to cut! Could u guys please help me? Perhaps i should cut the Null Rods for the 4th Deed and then i am at 60 cards?!

-EliteForce-

I think Lotus Petal is probably the best choice for a but here.  The deck will run plenty well with the way you've got the manabase set up (although I would argue you don't need Llanowar Wastes, you're still ok).

[blankpagez]

Where is our good old fren Phyrexian Negator ?? Does he even have a place in this deck now ?? Both Vamp Tutor and Demonic Consults have disadvantages. It is all up to the user.

Vamp doesn't give you card advantage. The only way to get the card you Vamp for quicker is to do it at end of opponents turn and during your draw you draw the car you tutored for.

Demonic Consult sometimes has a disasterous effect. I have once Consulted for a card that I have 4 ofs in the deck. I got the card and I was left with 8 cards in my library and it was just turn 4. So sometimes it really kills you when doing a Consult.

I am currently thinking of cutting them out totally. Maybe it's a dumb move but Im still playtesting. If I cut them, the only broken cards I would have are Demonic Tutor, Yawg Will and Necropotence. What does everyone think ??

How many Pernicious Deed or Nether Void's do you put into this deck ?? I am trying to find a good number but can't. Can someone here please advice me on this.

[DavidHernandez]

@Wumpus:
Vampiric Tutor should not be played because it doesn't work well with Necropotence.

dave

[JACO]

Where is our good old fren Phyrexian Negator ??

In the current metagame, Phyrexian Negator kind of sucks, because there are more creatures than normal. If you play in a combo and/or very control heavy environment, Negator is better. But against Keeper it is becoming less and less good (for example, when your opponent playing Keeper cycles Decree of Justice in response to you declaring Negator as an attacker, blocks with them, and you have to sacrifice a shit load of permanents).

@Wumpus:
Vampiric Tutor should not be played because it doesn't work well with Necropotence.

dave

To expound on this a little, what Dave means is that by casting Vampiric Tutor, not only are you losing a card, but you are costing yourself 2 life. If you have the possibility of casting Necropotence sooner or later in the game, that 2 life translates to 2 cards you won't be able to draw. So Vampiric Tutor is essentially losing you 3 cards if you plan to play Necro during the game.

[blankpagez]

Jaco:
That is true about Negator, but somehow this deck needs more kick in its creature threats. I would suggest Flesh Reaver but somehow I don't like the idea of losing life too when attacking my opponent. That is like one life less for me to draw a card when using Necropotence. Most Keeper build have the most 3 to 2 Decree of Justice.


I have a question myself. How many Pernicious Deeds and Nether Void's to put in the deck ?? I currently run 3 Deeds and 2 Voids. Is that an optimal figure. Maybe one of these days I will post my decklist here for comments and reviews.


Should we even add in Spoils of the Vault in here ? To me it is a tutor which is not restricted and you can play 4 copies in your deck. I might sound silly but I think the card has some potential in here. How bout is guys ??

[EliteForce]

I think Lotus Petal is probably the best choice for a but here.  The deck will run plenty well with the way you've got the manabase set up (although I would argue you don't need Llanowar Wastes, you're still ok).

Hmm... i tested this deck now for the last 4-6 month in almost any variant! In my opinon Lotus Petal is a quite nice replacement for the mox/lotus. It works like a mini ritual #5. Lotus Petal in your starting hand is really nice for 1st turn Shade / Hymn / Sinkhole / Null Rod / or even double Duress if necessary!  
Later on (under Nether Void) drawing the Petal is quite as usefull (or in this case unusefull) as a Dark Ritual!

For the 2 Llanowar Wastes i have to say that i would not need them for my MD cards but in post SB games with more green cards (Choke / Naturalize) the Wastes are providing more consistency!

@blankpagez (concerning the Negators): I do have to agree with JACO that the Negators kinda suxx in the current meta! In the Keeper matchup u do not only have to fear Decrees but Fire/Ice, Workshop decks have their big and fast fatties and against aggro the Negators are as good as using P.Deed to blow up your own permanents! ;(

-Elite Force-

[Viceroy]

Elite Force: where is demonic consultation???

If you are playing 3 voids & 3 pernicious, consultation must be the choice.

On lotus petal, under a Void is a dead card, but in the opening hands it brings great advantage, specially if you are not playing Mox JET.

[Akuma]

Demonic Consultation vs. Vampiric Tutor - Their respective advantages and disadvantages have been explained already. I usually run Demonic Consultation because the loss of tempo and a card is pretty noticeable in a high power environment. I would pick one or the other, but I don't think I would want to run both. IMO, it's not big deal which one you pick, they are both good choices.

Spoils of the Vault - I would not use this card in Nether Void decks. Sure, it's kind of like Demonic Consultation, but the life loss is a HUGE drawback. Nether Void does not win quickly, it has to establish itself and the amount of life you have dictates how long you have to clear the board with a Deed and drop a Void. You are not Masknought, you are not going to win two turns after casting Spoils.

Number of Deeds and Voids - I personally run 3 and 3. If I expected more Mishra's Workshop based decks, I would definitely up the Deed count to 4, it's usually your only chance.

[HuntedWumpus]

@(Conserning Negator): Shade and Wretch are far more durable thank our friend  of old. Also with Osawa, Mask, SepterContol (fire/ice on a stick); dropping a negator can be a frightening experiance.

Well Void Performed a much better than previously at Don's last nite. Although my  record 1-2 didn't reflect it the deck performed well. Match's against Keeper, and Scepter Control were both close. Should have beaten scepter but 3rd gama mana screw made life difficult.

I want to work Sylvan into this deck. Give it a test run. Cutting a card will be harsh. ANyone have ideas. Here is the current list. . .

Nether Void

8 Swamp
4 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Llanowar wastes
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Duress
4 Hymn To Tourach
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Nether Void
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Withered Wretch
3 Hypnotic Specter

Sideboard
2 Phyrexian Negator
3 Masticore
2 Null Rod
2 Choke
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Naturalize

Where to cutt for Sylvan...

[colder]

BTW, how did you like using Hyppies instead of Blurred Mongoose?  I know you were having concerns about that, but I'd like to hear how you felt he performed in your meta as opposed to B.M.

As for the Sylvan... tough call.  I don't know how I'd go about filling that in, although I'm certain you'd appreciate it.

[HuntedWumpus]

Overall hippies were better. I did wish i had mongese in the board in two match's. He would have been good. I still love and support him.

Sylvan would be awsome, but i cant find a card to trim

[EliteForce]

Elite Force: where is demonic consultation???

If you are playing 3 voids & 3 pernicious, consultation must be the choice.

On lotus petal, under a Void is a dead card, but in the opening hands it brings great advantage, specially if you are not playing Mox JET.

Yes i would really love to run Consultation but therefor i do have to cut the Null Rods!
Could any1 else please comment on the Rods in a controlish Meta with a lot of Iso Keeper player??


@HuntedWumpus: I only see one possibility to add the Library but therefor you have to cut your Mishra's Factories! If u do so you could add the 4th Wasteland, your Library and a 3rd card!
I tested the Factories for a really really long period of time and i think that they are simply inferior to your other critters and that you dont need that much creatures. Normally you disrupt as much as possible in the first few turns, then you try to drop one critter and then u only have to seal the game with Nether Void. If your Void is on the table and you can protect your creature you do not need any Factories!

-EliteForce-

[HuntedWumpus]

Hrmm thats interesting i could . . .
- 3 Factory

+1 Waste
+1 sylvan
+1 null rod or hippie or somthing like that . . . .

** Note to all, i have created a post in the open fourm titled "[Deck Discussion] Nether Void" hopeing to broaden our horizions...