[Deck] Enchantress, a return to respectability?

[BreathWeapon]

Well, Humility is 2WW in comparison to 1G. Against most hardcore Aggro decks you may be dead long before Humility is played. Also, Humility isn't that spectacular vs Fish ... while Oath just wins.

[Toad]

Quite frankly, I never had problems to deal with Aggro decks. Granted, I've not tested against Oshawa Stompy or Madness, but Moat, Worship, Overgrown Estate (and 4 tutors to get them), Balance and 2 Swords to Plowshares is really good against Aggro (add 3 Seal of Cleansing against TNT and Stacker). And post SB I bring in 2 more Swords to Plowshares and The Abyss / Seal of Cleansing. My main concerns are Combo (Dragon and Storm), Hulk Smash (Pernicious Deed wrecks the deck) and Keeper.  And in all these matchups, the Trinity sideboard is pretty useless.

Furthermore, The Abyss + Moat is better than Visara at dealing with creatures. I'd play Words of Worship before it.

[Leakycow]

Alright, somebody else who has tested Dueling Grounds and has found it useful (Muzzoni).

I keep seeing posts about Aggro being an easy matchup, but I just haven't found that to be always true.  Ever since Wonder--> graveyard has become a common play, Moat is iffy as a lock card.  Big Wurms and large Mongrels are problematic for Abyss to take down slowly (yes, I play against madness a lot).  StP can help, but an enchantment e.g. Dueling Grounds that slows down ANY creature rush strategy (soldiers, goblin armies, fast fat) is nice to have coming out of the sideboard.

I can't see dumping black...not just for duress, because chant serves a similar purpose, but the raw power of demonic tutor can't be overlooked in a deck that runs silver bullets instead of redundancy.  Grove can only go so far.  Abyss and Estate still have their place in the deck.  Don't overlook that Duress is a sorcery and can be Wisdom'd away late-game to bring back a crucial Replenish...I've done this before to save my ass and that's not a possible play with chants or abeyances.

I like Argothians.  They provide the worship lock, which is still the best way to beat sligh/gobs.  Unless they're boarding anarchy or earthquake-type spells, which is doubtful, you win.  If one mana means the world in Type 1 (bolt > incinerate, phid > magpie, etc.) then I've gotta stick with the Argothians.  Humility would be nice, but Parfait this deck isn't.

I'm enjoying this thread immensely...good to see a resurrection attempt on Enchantress going on.

Later

[Dr. Sylvan]

StP can help, but an enchantment e.g. Dueling Grounds that slows down ANY creature rush strategy (soldiers, goblin armies, fast fat) is nice to have coming out of the sideboard. [...] I like Argothians. They provide the worship lock, which is still the best way to beat sligh/gobs. Unless they're boarding anarchy or earthquake-type spells, which is doubtful, you win. If one mana means the world in Type 1 (bolt > incinerate, phid > magpie, etc.) then I've gotta stick with the Argothians. Humility would be nice, but Parfait this deck isn't.

Maybe we can have our cake and eat it, too. As long as we're running Holistic Wisdom, Humility can just as easily be a Regrowth in matchups where we'd rather have Argothians active, and then be boarded out, but it still has the potential to shut down matchups where the opponent relies on their creatures being fat and using abilities. If you can squeeze it through against Hulk/GAT, their only choice is a Deed (or a Wished solution if you have no Grove in play). This is the same kind of reasoning I use to explain decklists with both Mox Monkey and Damping Matrix, albeit magnified due to the critical role of the Enchantresses.

Dueling Grounds sounds interesting, and you can just Seal it when the token horde is going for the throat, so I can see a slot in the board for it.

I can't see dumping black...not just for duress, because chant serves a similar purpose, but the raw power of demonic tutor can't be overlooked in a deck that runs silver bullets instead of redundancy. Grove can only go so far. Abyss and Estate still have their place in the deck. Don't overlook that Duress is a sorcery and can be Wisdom'd away late-game to bring back a crucial Replenish...I've done this before to save my ass and that's not a possible play with chants or abeyances.

If we need a replacement for DT, there are two points: (1) most lists don't use Enlightened Tutor; (2) we don't use Recall anymore, so almost all of your tutor targets are enchantments. I'd go for a straight-up DT-->ET switch. (If DT goes for Replenish a lot, we can put the fourth in the board, maybe over a Ground Seal) It's true that Chant/Abeyance can't become more Replenishes, but they are interchangeable with Plow, which means that those dead cards can be turned into Chants game one against control, increasing your resistance to counters. It goes the other way, too, in that your Chants might be better as Plows against a deck like TnT, or if you're stuck on one white mana occasionally.

[Godder]

Oath ---> Replenish is pretty good, whether or not you play Argothian Enchantresses. A KrOathan SB, particularly if you're running Presences over Argothians, has won me plenty of games, while allowing me to SB more strongly against control. Yawgmoth's Will is pretty good, too, after a monster Oath.

Of course, if you can't Replenish/Will straight away, Tormod's Crypt can ruin your day, but that's not a common occurence, around here at least.

[MuzzonoAmi]

It's been done, but as Toad said, you roll over almost all aggro anyway, meaning that SB'ing into an anti-aggro strategy isn't going to make you any more successful. This deck needs ways to shore up the Prison and Combo matchups. Ground Seal is on the first step there, though. Maybe Rule of Law eitheer main or SB? I'll test it tonight, probably dropping City of Solitdude from SB or Drop of Honey main for it.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Sacred Ground is Da Bomb against Prison. resolving it neuters their Stacks, and you can work from there, because you're no longer losing permanents.

Basically, I have very little hope when I sit down across from a Storm combo. I'm willing to use space on Rule of Law in the board, but truly, the most hilarious way to win is if you run Sylvan/WoWorship and gain too much life for them to Tendrils away. It's ridiculously in their favor, and I don't really think there's a way to fix that. Luckily, Dragon is much more common, and Ground Seal is strong against them, as are Plow and Seal.

[MuzzonoAmi]

You're right. I did some testing (only about 10 games, but that seems to be fairly conslusive) with Rule of Law, and I resolved it once. When I did, he Mysticaled on my end step for Chain of Vapor and popped a Sphere for U on his next upkeep and bounced it, then proceded to combo out. The other 9 games I just couldn't find and cast it quickly enough. Sacred Ground seems like a good call. I'd be thrilled if we could find a reliable way of beating Strom combo. Here are the options as I see them:

Gilded Light
multiple Rule of Laws in the powered version
Ivory Mask (once again, only with power)

[Dr. Sylvan]

The best I can think of is trying to turn a Chant into a stall halfway through their combo turn. When a Draw-7 yields a Chant, you respond at the opportune moment with it and they lose everything they did that turn. It still sucks, but it might give you enough time to WoW your way up to 35 or 50 with Sylvan, which is almost impossible to Tendrils out. Still, a rough road to take. I'm basically of the opinion that you have to play another deck if your area has a significant chance of seeing Storm against you. Otherwise you have to create some freak variant of Enchantress with Null Rod shutting down its own Moxen...just too much trouble.

[MuzzonoAmi]

After testing that seems to be the case. Oh well, I can settle for having one auto-loss matchup, and it seems that the deck can at least feign competitiveness for awhile, at least as long as Big O sticks around to beat up on combo for us.

[Toad]

I've modified my build in order to incorporate Humility and see where It goes. This shuts down your best draw engine (Argothian Enchantress), which made me go back to Blue for additional card drawers. For mana base issues, I cut Black from the deck. The following build is rather untested and untweaked, It's just a first draft of an WGu build. The mana base is still a problem, as Green is not a real secondary colour but almost a primary one (even more post sideboarding).

Mana -- 27
        1 [card]Library of Alexandria[/card]
        1 [card]Plains[/card]
        1 [card]Strip Mine[/card]
        2 [card]Tropical Island[/card]
        3 [card]City of Brass[/card]
        3 [card]Wasteland[/card]
        3 [card]Windswept Heath[/card]
        4 [card]Savannah[/card]
        4 [card]Tundra[/card]
        1 [card]Black Lotus[/card]
        1 [card]Mox Emerald[/card]
        1 [card]Mox Pearl[/card]
        1 [card]Mox Sapphire[/card]
        1 [card]Sol Ring[/card]
Draw and Tutors -- 19
        2 [card]Compulsion[/card]
        1 [card]Ancestral Recall[/card]
        4 [card]Brainstorm[/card] / [card]Impulse[/card]
        1 [card]Pursuit of Knowledge[/card]
        3 [card]Sterling Grove[/card]
        3 [card]Sylvan Library[/card]
        4 [card]Enchantresss Presence[/card]
        1 [card]Time Walk[/card]
Bullets -- 4
        1 [card]City of Solitude[/card]
        1 [card]Ground Seal[/card]
        1 [card]Humility[/card]
        1 [card]Balance[/card]
Removal -- 5
        3 [card]Seal of Cleansing[/card]
        2 [card]Swords to Plowshares[/card]
Recursion -- 3
        3 [card]Replenish[/card]
Win Condition -- 2
        2 [card]Mobilization[/card] / [card]Sacred Mesa[/card] / [card]Decree of Justice[/card]

Sideboard -- 15
SB:  1 [card]Words of Worship[/card]
SB:  3 [card]Abeyance[/card]
SB:  1 [card]Aura Fracture[/card]
SB:  1 [card]Karmic Justice[/card]
SB:  1 [card]Sacred Ground[/card]
SB:  1 [card]City of Solitude[/card]
SB:  2 [card]Ground Seal[/card]
SB:  1 [card]Seal of Cleansing[/card]
SB:  2 [card]Swords to Plowshares[/card]
SB:  2 [card]Xantid Swarm[/card]

[Leakycow]

I'm biased toward keeping the Argothian, but by dropping black, I think the control matchup suffers.  Without Duress and no abeyance/chant effects, resolving critical enchantments (Sylvan, Presence, CoS) early in the game will be harder.  I just see a lot of topdeck-hoping.  Perhaps the 4th grove can re-emerge in a build without black?

On the other hand, the aggro matchup is probably better with all the Swords and Humility.  I'm not someone who agrees that aggro is a bye for Enchantress, so I do see this as a legitimate plus.

[terevaune]

Toad, have you found time walk to be that good?  In cooberp's original primer he reccomended against it, and the last time I tested enchantress (this was admittedly a while ago) it just didn't do that much for me.  it could be an extral land drop early, but for the most part I just found it wasn't that nesscessary.

Also, Muzzono, have you found drop of honey to be good?  I found it was just a weak abyss, especially because when an argothian is in play it tries to target the creature with the lowest power (the argothian) and then does nothing.

I'm not sure how well this deck would work without 4 replenish main, but maybe that's just my paranoia.  Threr are games where you need all of them, and I'd want to be able to at least side up to 4 of them against control.

The other thing I'm wondering about is library of alexandria.  It seems like it would be a drop in the bucket most of the time, or just not fast enough.  I'll grant that it is a good card, but I think the slot might be better served with another dual or basic.

As for abundance, I tested both (again, admittedly this was a while ago) and found I just preferred pursuit, as the draw 7 was more likely to just let you find what you need to lock the game down.  The draw 7 Will generally net you more cards because of replenish.  Pursuit gets you the cards now, and doesn't reveal all your draws to your opponent.  Not that Abundance is bad or unusable, pursuit is just faster.  The main nice point about abundance is that it does make it much more difficult to stall when your going off (just keep naming nonland and drawing more enchantments).

Also, Leakycow , did you mean droping black instead of dropping white - white gives you too many important cards to be able to cut it.

[Leakycow]

duh.  I'm a moron.  Yeah, I edited my post to say "dropping black."

Maybe I've been in a cave, but I haven't kept up with TMD affairs enough, so I'll ask...where is that cooberp fellow, anyway?  I fear evoking the wrath of the community if there's some taboo hush-hush thing that caused his enchantress rants to disappear.

[Dr. Sylvan]

I have also wondered this in the past, and remember that when curiosity made me check his profile on Old TMD, his last post was uber-long ago, probably only shortly after the "Enchantress Onslaught Changes" EVF thread burned out.

[MuzzonoAmi]

Toad - I don't think Blus is as strong as Black in the deck. You get Time Walk, Ancestral, and wacky stuff like Future Sight, which is just slower than the other two draw cards.

On Drop of Honey - Since I only run the Argothians as supplemental draw cards (my primary engine is Presence) I don't always have on out. It does mess with Drop, but not enough that it ruins the card or anything. And when they do, they're generally an expendable resource and can be used as chump blockers.

[Dr. Sylvan]

If blue is on the table, I'd consider Attunement over Compulsion. I'm not sure if it's a good idea, though. The original reason for removing black was that the mana base was too vulnerable, and i'd rather avoid that problem altogether by sticking to two colors. I'd rather risk screwing my Argothians with Humility if I happen to need it than risk screwing the whole deck when the opponent plays Blood Moon.

[MuzzonoAmi]

I agree 100%. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that earlier.

On the Enchantresses: How man do you think we need? I'm running 6, but I'm considering removing the Argothians for Enlightened Tutor and Grove #4. Maybe 5? I'm pretty sure that 6 is overkill.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Six helps control. I read the entire 13-page epic "Onslaught Enchantress" thread twice, so I remember a lot from it, and at one point when cooper just couldn't cut the deck from 62 cards, he decided to go to 4 Argothians and 1 Presence, and I think he said the second Presence was a good board choice against control, but that overemphasizing Keeper matches was easy when playing at Neutral Ground. One other thing about the draw engine is that I don't really like LoA. Considering the emphasis on playing multiple mana sources in the early game, and the invested permanent nature of the draw engines (you lower your cards-in-hand significantly before you draw it back), I haven't had much luck keeping a full grip, and when I have it, I've already got things well under control (activated Pursuit, etc).

Here's my latest thinking. I think having four tutors, WoWorship, and Worship along with SB CoP: Red makes aggro a very reliable victory, and the Swarms are golden control bombs.

------Mana: 26
4 Forest, 3 Plains
4 Savannah, 4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland, 1 Strip Mine
6 SoLoMoxen
------Draw/Search: 13
3 Sterling Grove
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Argothian Enchantress
1 Enchantress's Presence
3 Sylvan Library
1 Pursuit of Knowledge
------Removal/Kill: 9
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance
1 [card]Karmic Justice[/card]
3 Seal of Cleansing
2 Sacred Mesa
------Control: 12
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Orim's Chant
3 Replenish
1 Holistic Wisdom
1 Ground Seal
1 Humility
1 Worship
1 Words of Worship
------Sideboard: 15
1 Replenish
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Xantid Swarm
1 City of Solitude
1 Dueling Grounds
2 Rule of Law
2 Ground Seal
1 Sacred Ground
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Enchantress's Presence
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Aura Fracture

[MuzzonoAmi]

I think if you swap the Argothians and Presences around, you'll have an optimal list with that. By making the Switch, Drop of Honey can be used for removal, which should clear up any aggro problems the lack of Argothian/Worship creates. The reason I say this is that since we agree that Humility is better than Moat, we should probably also agree that shutting down our draw engine (or slowing it down greatly) is a bad idea. Also, have you tested Mirari's Wake?

[Dr. Sylvan]

Wake always seemed like a win-more card to me, since if you're losing, you should spend five mana on finding a bullet and playing it, and if you've already got the Pegasi riding to victory, Wake just makes it more spectacular and possibly a turn faster. When do you find it most useful?

[waSP]

It's taken me a couple of days to read through this thread, so forgive me if I've forgotten some of the discussion from the early portions of this thread.

I play the combo version of Enchantress often, and I've found the best way to beat combo decks has been Solitary Confintement.  Although, this was often better against Rector decks, but it will function well against Storm decks as well.  In addition it serves as a sort of Worship.  I don't know how bad the drawback is for you guys.  It would make Sylvan ineffective, but I think that might be okay as its positive is incredible.  What do you guys think?

[Dr. Sylvan]

Confinement, to me, is a separate deck. You need Squee or an active enchantress effect before you can expect it to stay operational, otherwise they can just go off the turn after you let it die, and you can't have gained anything in the meantime. That's a little slow. The effect is so powerful that it probably deserves testing, but it requires some large structural changes.

[MuzzonoAmi]

Wake generally speeds me up by 4-5 turns rather than just one. This is largely because my list is unpowered, but for me it's been the card that seals games rather than something I play once the game is already over. Without Moxen and Lotus, playing Wake and untapping enables you to play out your hand and rip through most of your deck in a single turn. This is, for me, good in just about any matchup, but really shines against resilient aggro decks like Slax, Stacker, TnT, and Mask/Masque, where you have to stabilize once and then kill them before they get back into the game.

[Godder]

Solitary Confinement is a great card, but I think you need to add more Enchantress effects for it to be effective. Once it's in play, and you've got the engine going, it's a monster vs Aggro and Combo. Given that storm combo is a bad matchup, according to comments in this thread, I'd view anything that strengthens that as good.

For Wake, I think if you want to play combo-style, just play combo (not that a quick finish is bad...). I play budget combo Enchantress, and I find it works quite well...

(Edit: added Enchantress)

[Dr. Sylvan]

I got in a little testing of my list today against Keeper and Madness. The first thing I noticed was that I'm a bad player who needs to mulligan more. After that, I noticed that basic land is good for me and a resolved Mind Twist is bad. Even after a Twist for four (his turn three) and a successful visit from Uncle Yawgmoth, it was a narrowly-timed Decree that saved my opponent from a savage Pursuit of Knowledge womping. I think I chose poorly somewhere along the line, but the core message is that control can be a close event. RUG Madness was actually hilarious to play, because active Sylvan+WoWorship forced him to overcommit intensely, followed by the hugest Balance in the history of mankind. I think worries about aggro are, at least to some extent, unnecessary.

Other thoughts: Xantid Swarm > City of Solitude. I didn't miss the second Presence. I didn't mind Humility against Madness, even though Argothian was my engine; it never came up against control, and I didn't play enough games to have a Holistic bonanza. I found myself tutoring for Pursuit whenever Sylvan was on the table if I didn't need one of the defense enchantments. I tended to play Mesa too early; it's possible the second copy isn't essential except as insurance against Crypt.

I need to get more games against Stacker so I can remember that Seal of Cleansing is an awesome card.

[Jawman16]

I like the idea of this deck going to only two colors.  I have been an avid Enchantress player for a long time and have been trying to find a good two color version to save the deck from Wasteland and Blood Moon.  

@dr. Sylvan-Why are you running Orim's Chants?  Are you that afraid of combo that you feel the need to include them?  I would recommend adding another Swords to Plowshares especially since black has been dropped leaving us without the Abyss.

I also feel that if Humility is going to be run that a second Presence is needed.  The Argothians are best becasue they are a win condition/Worship and they can hit first turn usually, but Humility is too good not to play.  That said I think that a 2nd MD presence could really help out the draw engine against aggro when you need to drop humility.

Where is your Serra's Sanctum?  That card is way too awesome to not play in any Enchantress Deck.  It is a game breaker and a game winner if left unchecked.  It needs to be in this deck.

Karmic Justice is a must have in this deck.  I have been advocating that card in Enchantress to my friends for a long time.  It owns Deed, Wasteland, etc...Awesome card.

[Dr. Sylvan]

I run the Chants for control as a pseudo-Duress and aggro as a super-Fog. I don't expect it to do much of anything against combo. I'm in the process of testing the Sanctum, partly because it requires multiple enchantments in play to do crazy stuff, and I really like having my first turns more consistent. I suspect the Sanctum will work its way in over a Forest, but I can't say for sure. I think the second Presence is a metagame decision; I've got it in the SB, but I don't think you really need it. If you're gonna drop Humility, you tutor for the Presence as soon as you can. Having another kinda clogs you up.

Shannon: I've been finding the deck to be mana-tight like nobody's business; have you had problems playing the higher-cc draw engine?

[MuzzonoAmi]

I haven't had any trouble with the more expensive engine over the ARgothians. It more than makes up for it by being Tutorable, Replenish-able, protectable, and more synergistic with the rest of the deck.

[Dr. Sylvan]

More testing thoughts:

Keeper seems to be slightly in favor of Enchantress. I'm strongly considering moving Humility to the board in favor of something better against control, but then again I haven't been testing vs. Hulk/GAT. The Chants may turn into more Swarms. So far it's been uncommon for me to even have enough mana to cast Mirari's Wake (and if I do, it's being pumped into an active Mesa or it's Time To Replenish), so I'm not going to test that at the moment. One of the advantages I've been reaping off the Argothians is the Worship lock (I've even convinced a Keeper player to conceded on that plus double Grove), and I think that's a hugely important function.

Oh, and Holistic Wisdom into infinite Strip Mines is sooo spicy. I cut off two colors last night, and it was so very evil.

Anyone else making progress?