[Deck] Enchantress, a return to respectability?

[Toad]

Humility is bad against Tog because, for the same reason I've been mentionning since the beginning of the thread about the Tog matchup, If the Tog player gains Control of the game, he'll Cunning Wish for Naturalize or Vampiric Tutor getting the standard maindeck Pernicious Deed to blow the Humility and clear the path for his Tog, and there is nothing you can do about that. Humility is good at stopping Welders, and in the Prison matchup, It's a heavy 4CC sorcery speed spell against a deck packing Spheres, Tangle Wires and Wastelands. Not really hot. Humility is probably strong against TNT, Stacker, Goblins and O'Stompy, but there Moat is equivalent and will not shut down your Argothians.

That little story reminds me one of my Parfait opponent showing a huuuuuuuge smile when I said "It resolves" with Humility on the stack. It was last year and I was playing Keeper with Morphling as the win condition. A turn later, I Mind Twisted his hand and the following turn Cunning Wished for Allay. Aaah, good times. Stopping Control's win conditions = useless.

[Dr. Sylvan]

I'll just add in that I'm now convinced Humility was a bad idea. I never like it, even against the fat aggro armies. There are just plain better cards for whatever you're using it for.

If I didn't so thoroughly love basic land and wish I could have more of them, I would find room for Sanctum No. 2. As is, basic land is so good that I almost feel like cutting a Heath for a Plains. (My reward for playing two colors, yay!) Unsure, though. I really hate Stifle.

Toad, you have experience on the Hulk side of the table; is Tormod's Crypt a good idea at all for this matchup, or are they mostly Squee-killers?

[Toad]

Tormod's Crypt kills the AK engine and the Deep Analysis Tog will bring in. I'm not sure It's really strong to bring in against Tog, because It does nothing against Tog's real win condition, Pernicious Deed. You really need to resolve a fast Karmic Justice here, or a Sylvan Library and a Words of Waste, and then try not to overextend. Maybe a fourth Duress would be worth it, MD or SB, as It also helps against Combo. Or Orim's Chant / Abeyance, as Koen suggested previously.

[cousTo]

:Toad
Still, my built is quite different from your, but Humility isn't a bad card.
It depends on the way you are playing it.
I've seen so much player casting it as soon as they have the mana for it.
Wrong move!

The fact is that i've never faced a real Tog deck, but as I saw from a deck list: Karmic, Aura of Silence, and a Grove are some key cards for me.


Anyone ever tried Reclaim instead of Regrowth?

Anyone ever tought about a secondary win condition? And, could it be usefull?

[Dr. Sylvan]

Anyone ever tried Reclaim instead of Regrowth?

Anyone ever tought about a secondary win condition? And, could it be usefull?

I haven't seen Regrowth tried in Enchantress really at all. And I would never use Reclaim over Regrowth, because I would rather draw a Replenish and get back whatever I was gonna Reclaim anyway.

What secondary win condition? Two Sacred Mesa is all the deck needs or has room for. Even that is merely a concession that at some point someone might try to RFG the graveyard with a Mesa in it. The alternative win condition is decking with either infi life gain from WoWorship, or just skipping draws forever with Pursuit. (Don't try this at home, kids!) Most people just know when I've beaten them and don't even make me Mesa them to death.

[Leakycow]

yay--it seems humility is dead in enchantress, so the argothian engine reigns supreme!

seriously, in the Tog matchup, the enchantress player has got to take a very aggressive mindset.  Throw threats out machine-gun style, because really, you have quite a supply.  Duress, Sylvan, KJ (as many have mentioned, this is quite the key card and should be maindecked in any meta, in my opinion), S. Grove, C.o.Sol., Choke, and the brutality of Replenish.  A pretty good arsenal, compared to a lot of decks that roll over belly-up against Tog.  

Yes, Tog runs a lot of draw cards, but not a lot of hard counters.  Keep their mana tied up and their hand count (relatively) low and I really think Enchantress should be able to butt heads with Tog straight-up.

Glad to see cooberp post again...this deck is his baby and growing out of its diapers.  If only it could neuter combo somehow...

[Dr. Sylvan]

seriously, in the Tog matchup, the enchantress player has got to take a very aggressive mindset.

This deserves emphasis. In most matchups, it is Enchantress which holds the position of inevitability. Given enough time, you'll draw your entire library and blow them out Pegasus-style. No other control deck has infinite creatures or the ability to play the entire deck up to four times with Replenish. However, against Hulk, they're the ones who will win given time. The only way to regain inevitability is to put yourself out of Berserk range with WoW, which is not plausible. Since they are the control deck which will win, you have to play aggro in hopes of racing the Deed. (If Stifle was white, Enchantress would be better. Stupid color pie.)

I agree with Leakycow on Karmic Justice. People are not happy to see that card against them.

[Toad]

The problem in the Tog vs Enchantress matchup is that:

* Tog's countermagic is cheaper than Enchantress's threats.
* Tog's win condition is cheaper and more efficient than Enchantress's one.
* Tog's draw engine is more explosive and diversified.

And in Control mirrors, the one with the best draw engine and the best countermagic wins. This is simple.
Basically, I would sum up a typical game in two ways:

1. Tog manages to hold Enchantress's first threats with Duress and countermagic.
2. Tog starts drawing.
3. Tog drops a Tog and wins, and there is nothing you can do from here.

Or:

1. Enchantress manage to bait counters and resolve an Enchantress.
2. Enchantress overwhelms Tog with threats and depletes Tog's hand.
3. Enchantress gains Control of the board.
4. Tog drops a Pernicious Deed.
5. Tog clears the board, drop a Tog and wins.

Your only shot at winning is trying to race Tog's Deed with a turn 3 Sacred Mesa. The problem is that Sacred Mesa is slow as hell, and getting the 4-5 turns window you need to drop Tog to 0 is almost an utopy.

[Leakycow]

I played a few games against a fairly standard Tog build, and I gotta say--game 1 is just ugly for enchantress.  You've got too many dead cards and you spend too much time sifting through the deck to try to find ways to attack the Tog deck.

It seems to me that this thread has reached a consensus that Enchantress still blows vs. most super-fast combo.  Until they print an enchantment that reads:

        cc = G
        Text: Combo decks lose.

there's almost no point in devoting sideboard slots against combo.  I'd rather try to gear Enchantress into having a better chance against Hulk in games 2 & 3.  Typical anti-control cards like Choke, City of Sol, Carpet of Flowers, etc. are nice coming out of the sideboard, but a lot of decks had reasonable success playing 4 Maze of Iths.  Until Hulk builds run more strips or start using Stifles, they're stuck trying to Time Walk their way into a win.  

I haven't tested this idea, so it may just suck.  Are there better ways to fight Tog?

I'm willing to say that if Enchantress can't beat combo (which, right now, it really doesn't) AND Hulk, then it's gonna be stuck on the sidelines in casual play.

[Jawman16]

(If Stifle was white, Enchantress would be better. Stupid color pie.)

If you are looking for a way to stop Deed then why not run two Bind in the Sideboard.  It is as good as Stifle at stopping Deed.  I still do not understand why you guys are so terrified of Deed?  I play against a deck every week that runs the following cards maindeck.  4 Pernicious Deed, 4 Diabolic Edict, 4 Wasteland, 4 Naturalize, 4 Sinkhole.  That is a pretty potent deck against Enchantress but the matchup comes down to one card, Karmic Justice.  If that gets played you win.  It is the same thing against tog.  If you play that and another threat say Moat, you win.  They will have to scoop their side to kill you and Tog does not play that much land as it is.  Now I don't know about you guys but I would rather play against a deck with one Deed and 8 counterspells then the deck I listed above.  I have been playign Enchantress for upwards of 4 months now and I have a pretty good idea of what beats what and Enchantress can beat Tog, especially after SB.  It is difficult but with enough Karmic Justice and other threats it is not too hard.

So now that we have agreed that Humility sucks balls, what is the new power enchantment that can take its place?  Wake, Dueling Grounds (good, but bad against the toothy one), another Moat??  Is Wake just a win more card?  I have found that it can let you bust out faster and even helps when people board in pesky Engineered Plagues.  It is another bomb that Tog has to counter or else they could get beat down real quick by Pegasi.

[MuzzonoAmi]

I really like Wake. I've been running it for about 5 months, and it just wins games when it hits. There's a ton of options for the Humility slot -offhand I can think of Karmic Justice #2, Root Maze, Drop of Honey, Pariah, Bind, Rule of Law, Sterling Grove #4 or Enlightened Tutor, and even janky stuff like Skull of Orm (which works). We've got options here.

[Dr. Sylvan]

I'm gonna call poor synergy with Ground Seal and huge mana reqs as my reasons for rejecting Skull of Orm. If you want to play Wake go ahead, but I'll continue my opposition till my opponents stop Wasting and Balancing me down to 3-4 mana.

Bind is interesting. Anti-Deed tech in a major way. I'll have to fish that out of my crap rare pile. Oh, and the Hulk player can still dig themselves out of a Karmic Justice much like Standard Tog could just Upheaval for the win. They simply need to have enough mana on the table to Deed and cast Tog in the same turn. Which is why Wasteland is one of the best cards for me against them, to try to keep them unable to cast the Deed. Holistic Wisdom has returned to my build on the merits of recurring my strip power and Sanctum, in addition to the lesser pluses for enchantments.

[TheFram]

Does Damping Matrix warrant some investigation here?

It helps against Slavery, Prison and Tog, and doesnt hurt you significantly.

[Jawman16]

Oh, and the Hulk player can still dig themselves out of a Karmic Justice much like Standard Tog could just Upheaval for the win. They simply need to have enough mana on the table to Deed and cast Tog in the same turn.

Good Point but this is where my point of view is different then say Toad's.  I keep the Swords in the deck in game 2 for this very reason.  Killing Tog is a good strategy especially after they Deed you.  Even so if they do manage to do this trick you have still bought time against them.  And that might be just enough to have enough mana to play two Replenish in the same turn or a Swords and Replenish etc...  You are right Dr. Sylvan when you say that Wasteland is key is this matchup.

really like Wake. I've been running it for about 5 months, and it just wins games when it hits. There's a ton of options for the Humility slot -offhand I can think of Karmic Justice #2, Root Maze, Drop of Honey, Pariah, Bind, Rule of Law, Sterling Grove #4 or Enlightened Tutor, and even janky stuff like Skull of Orm (which works). We've got options here.

I just ran some games with Wake and it was pretty cool but I can see it being a problem against Wasteland your right.  But along those same lines if it hits against Wasteland it makes the land kill very weak.  I just want to beat someone down one game with an Argothian. 1/2 lol  

The more that I think about it, Bind could be absolutly awesome in this deck as a MD 1-2 of.  Wasteland is an issue even with the W/G build.  Bind answers this very well.  It kills fetches for nice tempo advantage as well.  Too bad it doesnt stop a smokestack like stifle.  Oh well its green, not blue I cannot ask for too much i guess.  Ill experiment this week with a Bind or two MD.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Does Damping Matrix warrant some investigation here?

It helps against Slavery, Prison and Tog, and doesnt hurt you significantly.

I'll give it a try when I get a chance, but the biggest problems against Stax are the lock components, not the Welders. This deck has no instant removal to respond to triggers with. I would rather just have another Sacred Ground or Bind for those matchups. Also, see above for how much Hulk decks care about our "lockdown" permanents. They'll just Deed it away and grin their way to the finish line.

[MuzzonoAmi]

Skull was half joking, but on to more relevant matters. I really like Bind MD. Not only does it save you from Deed, but it also gives you some Keeper-style LD, on top of stopping other crap. Also, I don't fear Wastes. I'm still only on 2 colors, because Duress and WoWaste just don't cut it for me. Maybe in a Tog-laden meta they would be good. So that means they only have 5 targets for Wastelands, and I don't ever have to give them targets if I don't want to.

Also - what about Root MIZE?

[Dr. Sylvan]

Also, I don't fear Wastes. I'm still only on 2 colors, because Duress and WoWaste just don't cut it for me. Maybe in a Tog-laden meta they would be good. So that means they only have 5 targets for Wastelands, and I don't ever have to give them targets if I don't want to.

I'm in two colors and I fear Wastes. Mostly because they get in the way of ramping up to four mana, where I start kicking serious ass.

Also - what about Root MIZE?

Maybe if I played combo all day long. However, since playing against a combo metagame and playing with Enchantress are mutually exclusive unless I've recently suffered an aneurysm, Root Maze is a total no for this deck. The only time it slows the beats is when they've put in the effort to get haste, which took them part of a turn anyway. I'd much rather keep my StoP slots and invite them to the wonderful world of Pariah instead.

What is everyone cutting for Bind? I'm so attached to all of my cards... *sniffle*

[TheFram]

If the artifacts are the problem, Aura of Silence + Damping Matrix would be sweet. Aura can come down much earlier in here than in parfait because of more tutors and Sanctum, whereas parfait only has double mox/lotus openers to drop the Aura.

Also, I mentioned Damping Matrix b/c of the Slaver/Tog issue more than the general prison issue(though it does nail welders). Early matrix v. Slavery will clinch the game, so I would board it in multiples if Slavery is expected.

[Dr. Sylvan]

My two-color list still only has thirteen white sources plus Lotus. I'd much rather fetch a Forest (the better color early to set up drawing) than Savannah, which begs for Wasteland. Double white is only allowed for Moat, double green exclusively for Holistic Wisdom. Back when I tried Orim's Chant, one of the big problems was that I just didn't reliably have WW to kicker. It's too shaky to count on Aura like that.

If I can get a destroy effect to resolve, it's killing something, not sitting around to block their next play. Prison is really hard for precisely this reason.

[Jawman16]

What is everyone cutting for Bind? I'm so attached to all of my cards... *sniffle*

Yea I feel your pain here.  I tested the Wake last night and found that it is absolutly brutal.  It lets you win games that you have no business winning.  I usually can kill 2-3 turns after it hits play.  With this said I still dont know if it is better then Bind.  If I drop a card for Bind it will probably be the Wake or one of my 4 groves.  Right now though I have 2 in the board to come in against Wasteland or Deed.  I dont really think it would be that effective against Fetches b/c odds are you will be tapped out when hitting that fetch would be most effective.  The deck needs to play spells quickly (Argothian, Sylvan).  If you sit around waiting to "stifle" their fetch you will lose some serious tempo.  With that said I may try them in the board for this week even though I play in Deed heavy meta I have faith in my 2 MD karmic Justice.  They usually deter any Deeding of my board.  Karmic Justice is a bomb in this deck and should be given its due respect.    It is better at stopping a Deed then Bind ever will be.

[Toad]

If the artifacts are the problem, Aura of Silence + Damping Matrix would be sweet. Aura can come down much earlier in here than in parfait because of more tutors and Sanctum, whereas parfait only has double mox/lotus openers to drop the Aura.

Aura of Silence is too slow in Enchantress. Sanctum is only good if you have multiple enchantments on the board. If so, that means Prison failed to settle his lock. If you need to tutor for it, then tap means you had time to drop a Sterling Grove, then activate it. Considering the horrible tempo loss resulting here, if you have your mana to cast it, then Prison has failed his job already. Seal of Cleansing is far superior. The one mana difference is all what matters here.

Also, I mentioned Damping Matrix b/c of the Slaver/Tog issue more than the general prison issue(though it does nail welders). Early matrix v. Slavery will clinch the game, so I would board it in multiples if Slavery is expected.

Damping Matrix is shit against Tog. It does nothing, It's a dead card. If you don't have your Mesa engine running, Tog can easily win without the need to Cunning Wish for Berserk. Tog will just wait until he can deal 20 damage (often less due to your Cities / Sylvans / fetchlands), Cunning Wish for Oxidize, and win. And you'd have wasted a card in your war for board control.

In the Slavery matchup, Damping Matrix is just so-so, because the deck has an easy access to Shattering Pulse or Chain of Vapor / Capsize. You have "no" threats that frighten Slavery. I've played against Parfait saturday afternoon in a small tourney with Slavery. He was comfortably sitting behing an Humility and an Ivory Mask (which I both let resolve while having FOW in hand), because I was taking my time building my mana base. I ramped up to 15 manas, eot Cunning Wished for Capsize, Capsized his Humility and his Ivory Mask, casted Goblin Welder and Mindslaver on my turn and that was game. If you want to be safe, you need 2 Sterling Groves and an Ivory Mask on the board. Damping Matrix is good in Keeper because Keeper has the right tools to protect it. In Enchantress, you have no way to tutor for it, no way to protect it and no way to recur it.

Good Point but this is where my point of view is different then say Toad's. I keep the Swords in the deck in game 2 for this very reason. Killing Tog is a good strategy especially after they Deed you.

Swords to Plowshares is a dead card unless your opponent drops a Tog.
Dead cards are BAD in Control mirrors.

Against Control, you are fighting for Board Control and Card Advantage. You are holding a Swords to Plowshares waiting for my Tog? Good deal, I'll Mind Twist your hand before I want to kill anyways. Or just Duress it. Go ahead, waste some cards waiting for my win condition while I'm drawing good cards and making useful business.

[Matt]

If you want to be safe, you need 2 Sterling Groves and an Ivory Mask on the board.

Really, you just need one Grove and an untapped land. Saccing in response fizzles the Capsize, countering it despite buyback.

[Jawman16]

Toad writes

Aura of Silence is too slow in Enchantress

This is true but I have found success with one in the SB.  It is good against other randomness besides Stax/Slavery etc...  It is not as good as Seal in the maindeck though.  One mana is that important.  First turn Seal of Cleansing is almost a must these days against Prison.  The Aura does not do this.  But Seal can buy time for the Aura to rear its head once in awhile.

Against Control, you are fighting for Board Control and Card Advantage. You are holding a Swords to Plowshares waiting for my Tog? Good deal, I'll Mind Twist your hand before I want to kill anyways. Or just Duress it. Go ahead, waste some cards waiting for my win condition while I'm drawing good cards and making useful business.

This is true to an extent and has happened to me before.  But I still believe that STP (at least one, I like two) is necesary post SB.  It prevents Sui-Tog which is a very good strategy vs. this deck.  All tog really has to is play tog and win vs. you.  Many times the tog player has just raced for the kill and if I didnt have the swords i would have lost b/c it either got rid of the Teeth or allowed me to drop a bullet to prevent the damage.  I will continue to run these "dead cards" until "I" find them useless.  And I have not found that to be the case.  If you dont like them, then dont play them in the matchup but I like them especially off a Sylvan when I can hide them from the opponent.  

I have to agree with Toad on the Damping Matrix.  The card is shit.  It is not an enchantment, and it cannot be protected by Grove b/c of this.  There are more powerful cards then this to be played.

[Dr. Sylvan]

One of the interesting observations a playtesting partner made after a spectacular string of me losing to Keeper was that Sylvan Library by itself is not nearly broken enough to receive the emphasis it does. At least once he Stifled my Pursuit just last night, and by blowing through my life even once or twice I put myself in a position to be killed by Soldiers before I could lock the ground with Worship or some other soft lock such as Mesa. Thanks to the trauma of going 1-8, I'm experimenting with Chalice of the Void (X=1) as a potential way to slow the games until I get more mana and accumulate board position. They should also make conventional aggro much more favorable, so I shifted Sylvan #3 and WoWorship to the board for the slots (enchantment count still 20). If more testing shows anything worthwhile I'll post an updated list.

[MuzzonoAmi]

Telkl me what your results are for that. Now that I have almost all of my other decks where I want them, I can spend some time working on Enchantress again. I'm on a 3 Argothian, 2 Presence configuration, and that seems to be working well for the moment. I'm running Bind in the slots that used to be Chant/Abeyance. Carpet of Flowers is a godlike turn 1 play against Hulk.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Chalice of the Void = failure for me. I'm about ready to abandon my list as a tier two metagame deck and move on to another project, as tweaks aren't changing the results that much. Bind is helping versus Hulk a little, but it's too reliant on me drawing it. However, after these experiences with Karmic Justice, I'm hoping to translate that over to some other deck.

[mask]

If the artifacts are the problem, Aura of Silence + Damping Matrix would be sweet. Aura can come down much earlier in here than in parfait because of more tutors and Sanctum, whereas parfait only has double mox/lotus openers to drop the Aura.

Aura of Silence is too slow in Enchantress. Sanctum is only good if you have multiple enchantments on the board. If so, that means Prison failed to settle his lock. If you need to tutor for it, then tap means you had time to drop a Sterling Grove, then activate it. Considering the horrible tempo loss resulting here, if you have your mana to cast it, then Prison has failed his job already. Seal of Cleansing is far superior. The one mana difference is all what matters here.

Aura of Silence wrecks workshop decks, dropping it as soon as possible take off the explosiveness of the workshop deck, and always blow up a threat. Seal is still a great desions but seeing the options both should be abused.

What enchantress really need to abuse is words of wind with sylan libary, to create a tempo change in your direction. espically if we see ways for darksteel coloss to be broken in play.

How i play enchantress. I setup enchantress for panderburst as my win condition, therefore the rest of my deck is devouted to out resourcing. Orim chant and abeyance allow you to go off, or city of solitude, but in play testing abeyance and orim chant allow other timely plays.

[Toad]

Aura of Silence wrecks workshop decks, dropping it as soon as possible take off the explosiveness of the workshop deck, and always blow up a threat. Seal is still a great desions but seeing the options both should be abused.

You have not tested the matchup. 3 manas is the end of the world against Workshop decks.

What enchantress really need to abuse is words of wind with sylan libary, to create a tempo change in your direction. espically if we see ways for darksteel coloss to be broken in play.

How i play enchantress. I setup enchantress for panderburst as my win condition, therefore the rest of my deck is devouted to out resourcing. Orim chant and abeyance allow you to go off, or city of solitude, but in play testing abeyance and orim chant allow other timely plays.

You are talking about different decks. This has nothing to do here.

[mask]

Aura of Silence wrecks workshop decks, dropping it as soon as possible take off the explosiveness of the workshop deck, and always blow up a threat. Seal is still a great desions but seeing the options both should be abused.

You have not tested the matchup. 3 manas is the end of the world against Workshop decks.

What enchantress really need to abuse is words of wind with sylan libary, to create a tempo change in your direction. espically if we see ways for darksteel coloss to be broken in play.

How i play enchantress. I setup enchantress for panderburst as my win condition, therefore the rest of my deck is devouted to out resourcing. Orim chant and abeyance allow you to go off, or city of solitude, but in play testing abeyance and orim chant allow other timely plays.

You are talking about different decks. This has nothing to do here.

1. i have play tested it, but yes three mana is rought to get out, your point is very valid, against workshop i would run both.

2. maybe i am but that is how i think enchantress should be changed. you run replenish anyways, and saporling burst does throw chump blockers out.

[Leakycow]

but the "win" isn't the problem.  if pandeburst suits your fancies, then fine.  A lot of people will stick with mesa, others will use trenches or decree, or somebody might decide elder land wurm is broken.

the problem lies in the fact that the deck has a problem with:
1.  Super-fast combo decks that don't rely on the graveyard.
2.  Certain aggro-control strategies that can draw as well as enchantress, but run search, dig, and redundancy instead of a billion (potentially dead) silver bullets.

Right now, the sideboard seems to be pulled in too many directions.  When that's the case, that's a tell-tale sign that the deck is not particularly suited for the current metagame.  Fortunately for me, I can rule out certain matchups when I play that the rest of you probably concern yourselves with.