[Discuss] Gay/R

[wuaffiliate]

is anyone actually playing this deck and molding it to their metagame? i dont see much talk about this deck right now and its deffinately one of the most valid in type one.

example list for the toronto metagame:

4 grim lavamancer
4 cloud of faeries
4 razorfin hunter
3 voidmage prodigy

4 force of will
3 stifle
1 misdirection

4 standstill
4 curiosity
1 ancestral recall

1 time walk
3 null rod

1 library of draw me cards
4 mishra's factory
3 faerie conclaive
4 wasteland
1 stripmine
4 volcanic island
4 fetch
3 island

SB:

3 rack and ruin
3 tormod's crypt
4 red elemental blast
3 maze of ith
2 sigil of sleep

In Toronto i expect; the mirror, mono-u fish, Ur landstill, mono-b dragon, UBg dragon, UWR control, various mask decks both survival and mono-b, foodchain goblins, skull.dec, reanimator, sui black, mono-b and bg void, oshawa stompy and whatever new tech BeBe comes up with .

so basically i will see alot of aggro, phat and weenie, slow and very fast. there is minimal combo, but when its there you know it, there is not usually alot of control, mostly landstill in multiples.

Razorfin Hunter: this thing kicks ass, hes insane with curiosity, hes so good with sigil and he destroys the mirror and mono-u fish, much better imo than spiketail hatching in my metagame.

Voidmage prodigy: he was under apreciated by me in the early days, but the more i play with him the more i like it. this usually alternates between 3 and 4 with razorfin, depending on what i expect at a certain tourney.

no sapphire: there is alot of artifact hate here, and i really never like to see sapphire. its crap with clouds and just really isnt strong enough, the basic island to me is superior.

SB:

RnR/Crypt/Redblast: all solid SB cards, these are usually always in my board in 2-4s, they always come in handy.

maze: ostompy and mask are big reasons this is so good.

sigil of sleep: this is such good tech, when its ona pinger i rarely lose the game vs aggro, its also strong if you can bring dragon into a mid to late game. you should be winning by that time anyhow, but sigil on a razorfin or lavamancer is just so wrong.

Post your lists and ideas on mine, post your tech and whatnot.

-Al

[Pago]

Ive never really liked the voidmages, because they require too much to activate. Consider:

cost: UU
activation: UU + Sacrifice

Total cost in total (if popping himself) UUUU+Sacrifice.

I found the flying men with curiosity work much better, but sometimes voidmage is good in counter / combo because its counter is an ability, not a spell

[wuaffiliate]

voidmage is really needed vs control, if it resolves its so huge. think about it its a 2/1 for UU, it can also sac to counter a spell for UU which is more or less UNCOUNTERABLE. he really is very good, unless all you play against is bad decks.

[Chaos Blade]

//NAME: Untitled Deck
// Creatures
        4 Spiketail Hatchling
        3 Voidmage Prodigy
        4 Cloud of Faeries
        4 Grim Lavamancer
// Spells
        2 Stifle
        3 Null Rod
        3 Daze
        4 Standstill
        4 Curiosity
        1 Misdirection
        4 Force of Will
// Mana
        2 Faerie Conclave
        4 Mishra's Factory
        4 Island
        2 Flooded Strand
        3 Polluted Delta
        4 Volcanic Island
        4 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
// Sideboard
SB:  1 Tormod's Crypt
SB:  2 Maze of Ith
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  2 Energy Flux
SB:  2 Seal of Removal
SB:  2 Rack and Ruin
SB:  2 Fire/Ice


 That is my budget list so far. I dont know what else to play in the Voidmage slot. Im debating either Voids Razorfin or Rootwater. What would be the best in an controlish type comboish meta? Ok to add more on this is generally metagamed towards Jewish Tendrils, Stax/MUD variants, with some random type decs as in Sligh etc. For making it a budget version I replaced the Time Walk and Ancestral Recalls for Stifles which would imporve my tempo denial and in result protect my manlands from the various wastelands from Keeper etc. Being able to have 2 main deck slots open allowed me to keep my Dazes which have been golden. Im really scared about Tog and how to race it to win while keeping my tempo advantage up.

EDIT: added more detail, sorry people I was out of time for my original post.

[wuaffiliate]

please post in depth, just a list and a few sentences doesnt really do much, maybe explain your metagame more and reasoning for your choices.

thanks

In addition, for a control and combo metagame i would stick with a spiketail, daze, stifle mix, your list would be along the same lines as what i would run in a combo/control metagame.

[Jamino]

Well a few things.
First I have been playing this deck for a few months and over the months my views on it have changed. At first I looked at PTW (Phanton Tape Wurm) decklist and hated it.
Spiketail Hatchling? What good is that card? 1U for a 1/1 with a seemingly mediocre ability?
Now, at first glance the deck seems to beat down with 1/1s, draw cards, and play a standstill.
However look at it more closely, it ALL serves the same purpose and is tuned as such. Mana Denial.

This deck is full of it, from wastelands and strip mines, to null rods and stifles the deck is jam packed. This is why, the more I plaeyd the deck and understood it, the more spiketail hatchlind made sense to me. It will just about always slow the opponent down a few turns, and while its doing that is beating and drawing you cards when you really need them.
Not only that but they can easily catch an oponent unaware. Half the time the people wont know what it does and wont even think about it. Eventualyl, they need to kill it cause they are so light on land. Wheather from a bolt or fire/ices, you can always sac it in response and alot of your opponents not havign played vs this alot will tap that extra land.

However, with all this mana denail, and beatings, we can't forget the original idea of the deck, Aggro/ CONTROL. What good is control when after you slow him down a bunch of turns and lay a few creatures down if all they need is to play a Balance or resolve an abyss.
Yes, I have found it happened alto without the Prodigy.
Look this way, looking at PTWs list, he plays 4 Force of Will and 2 Misdirection. Thats 6 counters ( I am not counting stifle as its mostly mana denial i find) 2 of which wont work on alot. That is not good. You can have the game completely owned, full of creatures, wastelants and everything, but all they need is a basic land to swords or kill alot of your 1 toughness creatures.
However with prodigy you are potentially adding 7 Counters to the deck, all of which are onyl counterable by a stifle as long as a prodigy is in play.
Yes, as alot of people seem to be forgeting, GrimLavamancer is also a wizard.
That means that in the late game, if you are not able to stop them completely in land production you will not have to hope to draw oen of your 4 fore of wills to counter a game swinging spell. I mean, what good is drawing insane amounts of cards, which this deck does, if have hardly any answers to spells. Even by drawing 3 cards off a standstill your chances of getting one of your 4 force of wills are relatively small.
I understand the Prodigy is not instant speed, but under a standstill it is basicalyl game, and it really does beat. You cant always go all the way with a lot of 1/1s without your factorys. Often a jugernaut will resolve and you wont have a factory no the table. Unless you have alot of cards in your grave and your lavamancer does not have someoning sickness you are tarding 3 for 1 to kill it off. However 2 Power is alot for this deck and is exactly what it needs. Beatz, that are never dead. Resolve one and the chances you lose are ALOT smaller.
I have only actually been playing him for a few days now, and I just love him. In his slow befor there used to be Gorilla Shaman, but I found that to be either dead with a null rod or really useful. However more often dead.
And in almost every situation having a Prodigy would have been beter.

Whether to play merchant scroll or not, is a person choice. It has its advantages and disadvatages, but I rather play it. Searching for that crucial stifle which I will often look for BEFOR ancestrall wins me games period. Ofcourse it can be argued that havign the other stifle wiould just be better, but looking for A Recall also helps, and so does MisD vs aggro.

Here is the list I am playing. It is basically the same as PTWs, except for the sideboard whichi I like alot better now:

3 Voidmage Prodigy
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Grim Lavamancer

4 Force of will
2 Misdirection
2 Stifle

4 Standstill
4 Curiosity
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Time walk

3 Null Rod

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip mine
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's factory
2 Faerie conclave
4 Flooded strand
4 Volcanic island
2 Island

sideboard:
3 Red Elemental Blast  
2 Fire/Ice
3 Energy Flux
1 Null Rod
4 Maze of Ith
2 Seal of Removal

Well, I can already see alot of people saying how unoptimal this is, and asking me why I am playing Seal over Sigil of Sleep.
First of all, I am not playing as many pingers a Wu- is, and with already 4 curiosity, losing 3 to 1 for a bolt is not very appealing, not only that, but if its not on a pingers its alot easier to get rod of. Most of them time, the two extra turns this provides (sumoning sickeness) is enough time to either counter it befor, get a maze, get a chump blocker while some flyers finish off the rest. How many people have a response to an echantment!?
Seal will also save you the crucial first few turns vs dreadnoughts, and phages when your creatures still have sumoning sickeness.

Maze of Ith:
I know 4 may seem like alot, but with the abundant amount of landstill I am seeing these days, I love them. I side these in vs landstill. They have 2 more man lands then you so with 4 Maze you will win the war. They will not be expecting these either, so you can just draw if you don thtink you can win, or trick them into wasting them. Either way they are golden.
Vs. aggro, this is da bomb. Its only wasteable, and they will need there mana alot of the time. You also play stifles to save them. One will save you a few turns, two a few more, three some more and 4 a whole bunch more. Aggro is this decks hardent matchup, why would you not play 4 of these? I just dont see it.

Anyways, these are just my thoughts and ideas on the deck, feel free to criticize,
               Jamino

[wuaffiliate]

Great post, i agree with you completely. ive played in montreal (where jamino plays) and i would not be playing razors and sigils. i would go the more traditional rout with spiketails and seals.

sigil really isnt a standard in Gay/r, as far as i know only method(ashok) and i use them in the board with razorfins. its a metagame thing and ive enjoyed seals also, they are amazing vs phat and dragon alike.

On merchant scroll, i do agree its personal preference. i find the 3rd stifle is often more important than being able to tutor for it. im often landlight and like playing my threats and using my kais, so scroll isnt a good choice in my eyes for Ur. also you run fire/ice which scroll also nabs if need be so you gain from running it more than i do.

I dont like energy flux in Ur, rack and ruin is just so much more of a bomb. prison can often lock you down before you can resolve a flux, and they have ways arround it such as workers and smokestacks. rack and ruin deals with prison very well in the early game as well as late, it also deals with mask which flux does not do too well. ive just found RnR to be less situational.

maze is deffinately one of my favorite board cards, its so very flexible at dealing with what fish should not be able to. i've also found that maze works wonders vs landstill, they never expect you to SB them in, and if you can hold back from using them early they may waste their strips on volcanics and library and be unable to deal with maze.

thanks for the quality post Justin.

[Motrax]

I've replaced the voidmage prodigies maindecked fire/ice. There are a bunch of Fish decks and Workshop decks in my meta, and fire/ice is strong against both of these. In the mirror, Fire is clearly a good card, and is un-misdirectionable in most cases. Against workshop decks, Fire can kill welders and metalworkers. In addition, I sometimes use Ice to slow down the Workshop player early on, in order to get a standstill "lock" before spheres of resistance and wastelands become too much of a problem.

They are useful against aggro, too - better in most aggro matchups than a Prodigy in my opinion. The counter-ability rarely comes into play because it's so slow in this case, so the mage usually just chump blocks and dies. Fire/Ice isn't incredible either, but it's never a dead card. Fish usually has a pretty good matchup against pure control decks with all of the mana denial and manlands, so the change from Voidmage to Fire/Ice isn't as curcial in this case.

[kirdape3]

How about Mask of Memory as a direct replacement for Curiosity?  You don't increase your hand size any more than you would under Curiosity, but the appeal of both seeing more cards and only having to defend it once against countermagic when the first creature gets smashed is really nice.

[Chaos Blade]

What matchups seem to be very frusterating for this deck? Right now I have been having trouble with tog variants especially B2B Tog.

What would be better main in the budget build, the 3rd Stifle thus cutting the Daze count to 2, or playing 2 Stifles and 3 Dazes. Both cards have there pro's and cons being that Daze can help you force stuff through and disrupt the opponent for a short time or Stifle with its abilty to stop Wastelands, Fetchs and Storm etc.

How good is the 4th Null Rod in the board? Often while I used the 4th rod I found it a nuisance and wished it was something else in that time so I have kept to 3. What is your opinion on this?

 My other thought was on Maze Of Ith in my metagame. Would you suggest running 2 or 3 in a High powered meta with Tog, Keeper running rampant? Also on the Rack And Ruin issue, it is alot better that I might drop fluxs complety for 3 Racks and if there is a need add Annuls.

[Jamino]

Honestly, I have never played more then 1 Rack and Ruin in my side or main for that matter, so alot of what I am about to say will be based on either theory or from seeing others play.

Energy Flux is game vs alot of those artifact decks. Vs Welder Mud, StackerII and a few others a resolved Flux is game. However, it really IS hard to cast. Bewteen Tangle Wires, Wastelands, Sphere of Resistances those decks have alot of disruption. However, the mroe I think of it, the more I see rack and ruin being better. The instand part really does help, and can often adavntage you alot, the only draw back is that unlike a Energy Flux, a resolved Rack and Ruin is not game. But destroying 2 artifacts IS better then destroying none afterall.
However, this may just be me, but am I the only one who seems really impressed with that new instand from Darksteel?
1R Destroy target artifact and all others artifacts with the same name.
That just seems so good! Look at all of those decklists and you will see all of them playing multyples of each, and on top of that, it is AMAZING vs Mask! Imagin! They play a mask and a few dreadnoughts, they flip and use that card! Or just kill all there masks. And all this for 1R! I had been giving shattering Pulse some thought as it is cheap removal and occasionaly in the late game it can be buy backed, but this...is perfect. I would like to hear other thoughts and concers reagrding this, as for me this would be an automatic replacement for rack and ruins as well as Fluxes.

Mask of Memory seemed interesting at first. Even to the point as when Mirroden came out I bought myself a set. However I tried, and noticed two fatal flaws in this card. First of all, it comes a turn or two later then curiosity and most importantly, it is shut down by null rod. Now, the turn later can probably be worked around, but null rod is vital to this deck. The games I have won because if this I cant even remember, there is just too many! Not only that, but artifact hate is alot moer popular then enchantment hate (enchantment? Whats that).
However on its advantages, is it doesnt not require blue, and a destroyed creature does not make you lose two for one. However, its disadvatages definaetly outnumber its advantages in my opinion, however I do think it is a card with the potential to be abused, and possibley in a different version of a deck with a set of moxen and Gorilla shaman. But that is a whole different story.
I wil definately test Sigil quite alot more as I do see it haveing potential, but for the montreal metagame as you said I just think seal is better.

Feel free to criticize and/or comment,
     Jamino

[urza_insane]

I played a build that used Mask of Memory and I loved it... for awhile. Then I realized I missed my Null Rods WAY to much to warrent their inclusion. Equip is an activated ability, doesn't work to well with rod.

[Chaos Blade]

That 1R instant does seem very interesting. I could see it having immense potiential against Lock decks and TnT. But then those cards would have ot be in play and that wouldnt seem likely? Also Racks can nab two different problems

[kakeboy07]

is anyone actually playing this deck and molding it to their metagame? i dont see much talk about this deck right now and its deffinately one of the most valid in type one.

example list for the toronto metagame:

4 grim lavamancer
4 cloud of faeries
4 razorfin hunter
3 voidmage prodigy

4 force of will
3 stifle
1 misdirection

4 standstill
4 curiosity
1 ancestral recall

1 time walk
3 null rod

1 library of draw me cards
4 mishra's factory
3 faerie conclaive
4 wasteland
1 stripmine
4 volcanic island
4 fetch
3 island

SB:

3 rack and ruin
3 tormod's crypt
4 red elemental blast
3 maze of ith
2 sigil of sleep

My meta is midwest (minnesota) and while i havent actually brought this deck with yet (didnt make it to the last sunday), I have been actively testing a gay/r(ish) deck.

4 grim lavamancer
4 cloud of faeries
3 flying men
1 Morphling

4 force of will
3 stifle
4 Mana drain

4 standstill
3 curiosity
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Psionic Blast
2 Fire/Ice
1 ancestral recall

1 time walk
3 null rod

4 mishra's factory
2 faerie conclaive
2 wasteland
1 stripmine
4 volcanic island
4 fetch
3 island
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus

62 Cards

SB:

1 Fire/Ice
1 Stifle
2 Annul
1 rack and ruin
2 tormod's crypt
3 red elemental blast
3 maze of ith
2 sigil of sleep


Some thoughts/Reasons why i play what i do.

Psionic Blast:

Arrogant Wurms kill this deck, and im sick of them. Last time I played I saw 5 Maddness based decks. Merchant Scroll fetches me my psi blast as an alternate target (instead of recall) so that i can come back from an early problem with aggro.

Morphling:

Hes the biggest fish on the block, and when hes on the table (via drain most of the time) and theres a standstill down, its pretty much game

Mana Drain:

Ive run into problems not drawing into enough control with Gay/R in my meta. Drain allows me to activate my factories for "free" alot of the time. It also makes for nice morphling or even psiblast drops.

Flying Men:

Flying is an awesome evasion tech, and 1st turn men, 2nd turn curiosity leaves room to also drop a manland or have 1 mana open for stifle.

Cloud:

Turn 2 Play mishra's factory, tap island factory for cloud. Untap and tap again for standstill. Shake hands.

1 Mox 1 Lotus:

U acceleration is always nice to have. Ironically i use the lotus most often to play flying men and null rod.

S/b choice of Anul:

Annul hurts stacker, dragon, everything that runs artifacts, Pernicious Deed, and has just a great # of uses (counters rancor)... etc etc..

i love it

[Hi-Val]

I swapped out the Voidmages for Rootwaters when I played in a combo-heavy meta, and they work wonders. A single swing against Stax takes out Karn, and usually, their chances for winning. Check out my TR here:

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=6470

I find that Energy Flux picks up where R&R drops off. Sometimes it just isn't worth it to nail a few moxes, and the Flux just adds a constant reminder to artifact decks. I think that the cards are best played in tandem; R&R to clear the field, and then Flux to make sure nothing nasty comes down again.

I'll post more later if people want to know about the deck, I love the build!

[Blitzbold]

My version also features Rootwater Thief instead of Voidmage now. Though Kai's ego has great synergy with the Grim mage, I seldom used his ability with the Lavamancer. It was therefore reduced to a UU 2/1 beater without evasion that can be popped to stop a single spell. Rootwater on the other side can quickly take out a deck's win condition(s) such as Karn in Stax or the two single Decree of Justice in Iso-Keeper.
For the same reason Rootwater makes games against B2B-Tog a lot easier. If you can get a Rootwater in play early, they probably will not have any B2Bs left, which hurt a lot if they resolve.

[Tijnie]

I am a really big fan of Voidmage's. I lov the way the keep you in controll of the game. I can see that Rootwater Thief is REALLY strong in a Combo-heavy Meta. It can be nice in the Voidmage Slot if you're Meta is like that.

I Use my Black Lotus too, It is a Real House everytime I have it in my hands. In the first turn(s) it is so strong dropping a creature and a Standstill (or a fast Rod). And later in the game you can use it to hardcast a FoW/MisD or to pay any costs for Conclave and Voidmage (or whatever you have in play).

Daze's are nice, I won't cut them as fast as most people do. Game1 they are one of your best weapons because most people don't expet them. and if they do, you slow them down because who wants to get his spell countered by a daze   .

[Jamino]

Alot of you guys seem to be contradicting yourselves even in your own posts.
First of all, how in the world down runing lotus help you at all? The first little boost may help a little if you have that kind of a hand, but orelse late in the game it should be dead. You are playing nullrod and as a few people already stated how in the world does runing lotus help you around back to basics? Hulk plays back to basics and that is a matchup where you want to play a null rod. Not only that but to include null your you are most probablly cutting a basic island, something that if a back to basics where to resolve is absoluitely crucial. This deck wants permanent mana sources and lotus does not provide that. Now I could spend all day writing why lotus does not belong in the deck, but if you have played the deck considerably well against a variety of decks you should understand.

Morphling? Why would you even want to play him in Gay/R?
How does he help you? Its 5 To cast, and double blue to boot and even if you do erach 6-7 what you should wait to have when playing the deck, you should have either gained control of the game or just lost it.
The deck you posted is no where near optimal for a fish like deck and just seems like a suboptimal Urphid deck without the control.
I am by no means saying this is bad and has no positive attributes, but to me I just do not see the advantage of this. I would sugest looking at Miltons "The showercap" Urphid deck for a simular more controlish version of this aggro control deck.

As I had said befor at first the Prodigy does not seem to be an imediate inclusion, but the more you play the deck, the more you will see that it does belong in the deck. If however you have a dislike for the card or play in a heavy artifact metagame its closest competitor for the spot even though you do run null rods is obviously gorilla shaman.

I hope this answers more of you questions, feel free to comment,
          Jamino

Also, for those of you just posting a decklist with a line or two that is not the way for you to get feedback, and if you want any I suggest you either go more in depth on the choices or not post at all. Taking the time to go through the decklist and not seeing any explanations at the end really makes me feel I am waseting my time. Thanks.

[TheRock]

Rootwater Thief has probably lost effectiveness due to the new restrictions.

While having Thief for the Stax encounter can be a very good idea, I want to remind players that most Stax players run more than 1 Karn.  In addition to that, you need to be able to activate the ability underneath the threat of Tangle Wire.

As far as Keeper is concerned, most players, including the builds posted on this very site already run at least 2 kills maindeck.  Your chances are getting the actual kills are not as good as they used to be when most players would run a single kill main.  However, I wouldn't complain if I was getting Balance, Will, AK, and Scrying with the ability.

On my last note, most combo decks are completely immune to Thief removal.  Voidmage is a more dangerous play in a lot of instances against combo since they have to get through him to win.  Before you go using Thief in a combo filled environment, try to figure out which play would hurt more: having a 2/1 counterspell or having a 1/2 flyer remove cards from their library that they might not even need.

[wuaffiliate]

How about Mask of Memory as a direct replacement for Curiosity?  You don't increase your hand size any more than you would under Curiosity, but the appeal of both seeing more cards and only having to defend it once against countermagic when the first creature gets smashed is really nice.

i've played with mask, i has to sacrifice my null rods though. mask is really really good, feeds mancer, its never card disadvantage like curiosity. one disadvange is that it cost 3 mana to use it the first time inm a deck that really runs low on mana. but it all comes down to null rod, if your metagame can withstand not playing null rod then by all means mask is a better choice.

I swapped out the Voidmages for Rootwaters when I played in a combo-heavy meta, and they work wonders. A single swing against Stax takes out Karn, and usually, their chances for winning. Check out my TR here:

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=6470

I find that Energy Flux picks up where R&R drops off. Sometimes it just isn't worth it to nail a few moxes, and the Flux just adds a constant reminder to artifact decks. I think that the cards are best played in tandem; R&R to clear the field, and then Flux to make sure nothing nasty comes down again.

I'll post more later if people want to know about the deck, I love the build!

I've never been impressed with rootwater thief vs combo, when i used to play vs long in tourneys i ran mono-u fish. i didnt use rootwater once, i just outdrew them and stoped key spells. voidmage is as fast as rootwater is, but he works to stop damaging spells under swarm as well as dealing 2 dmg not 1. i would much rather keep mana open for my lavamancer or more threats than use rootwatter's ability most of the time.

When playing with RnR you should not be taking moxen anyhow, thats just a bad play, you keep it arround untill you need it. if you are taking ou tmoxen with the RnR, flux will not even be needed, i dont see your point.

fact is RnR is more flexible vs the metagame AND you lose nothing by using it over flux, nailing karn and a smokestack is just so good, it messed up their math much more than flux does.

My version also features Rootwater Thief instead of Voidmage now. Though Kai's ego has great synergy with the Grim mage, I seldom used his ability with the Lavamancer. It was therefore reduced to a UU 2/1 beater without evasion that can be popped to stop a single spell. Rootwater on the other side can quickly take out a deck's win condition(s) such as Karn in Stax or the two single Decree of Justice in Iso-Keeper.
For the same reason Rootwater makes games against B2B-Tog a lot easier. If you can get a Rootwater in play early, they probably will not have any B2Bs left, which hurt a lot if they resolve.

void mage deals with b2b much better than thief can. workshop decks are not a problem you have means to real with welders and their kill conditions AND lock components, you need to be realistic. Is isokeeper a problem for you? it isnt for me i have null rods, RnR and more threats than they can deal with, not to mention i out draw them like a mofo.

My version also features Rootwater Thief instead of Voidmage now. Though Kai's ego has great synergy with the Grim mage, I seldom used his ability with the Lavamancer. It was therefore reduced to a UU 2/1 beater without evasion that can be popped to stop a single spell. Rootwater on the other side can quickly take out a deck's win condition(s) such as Karn in Stax or the two single Decree of Justice in Iso-Keeper.
For the same reason Rootwater makes games against B2B-Tog a lot easier. If you can get a Rootwater in play early, they probably will not have any B2Bs left, which hurt a lot if they resolve.

void mage deals with b2b much better than thief can. workshop decks are not a problem you have means to real with welders and their kill conditions AND lock components, you need to be realistic. Is isokeeper a problem for you? it isnt for me i have null rods, RnR and more threats than they can deal with, not to mention i out draw them like a mofo.

Thanks again for the posts.

[Hi-Val]

I've never been impressed with rootwater thief vs combo, when i used to play vs long in tourneys i ran mono-u fish. i didnt use rootwater once, i just outdrew them and stoped key spells. voidmage is as fast as rootwater is, but he works to stop damaging spells under swarm as well as dealing 2 dmg not 1. i would much rather keep mana open for my lavamancer or more threats than use rootwatter's ability most of the time.

When playing with RnR you should not be taking moxen anyhow, thats just a bad play, you keep it arround untill you need it. if you are taking ou tmoxen with the RnR, flux will not even be needed, i dont see your point.

fact is RnR is more flexible vs the metagame AND you lose nothing by using it over flux, nailing karn and a smokestack is just so good, it messed up their math much more than flux does.

Let me reiterate what I was saying. I am in complete agreement with you over R&R being able to take strong targets. However, it doesn't allow the huge recovery that Energy Flux does against Stax. A properly resolved Flux will win you a game you had no business winning. Against Stax with resolved Spheres, Chalices, Wires and Stacks, what do you hit? R&R forces you to sometimes take the wrong things out. Energy Flux works like a permanent Wrath of God for artifacts. It renders moxes useless even if you don't have out a Rod.

Energy Flux is the median between Null Rod and R&R. Sometimes it just does better than either one. I still run them in tandem with R&R because a Scepter player will gladly pay 2 a turn to keep their stick around.

Flux can stop Stax's development after it comes down, sometimes permanently. R&R is the dive bomber taking out the tanks, and Flux is carpet bombing the tank factory.

With Rootwaters, often when playing against a combo deck, you only need one or two swings. Even if that 2 mana could cast another Spiketail or whatever, why would you hold it back if you know that swinging once and paying it exponentially increases your winning chances? You even get a free peek at your opponent's deck, and I hear that is some good.

What is 2 power over 1 power if you're going to win anyway? That being said, when your meta isn't infested with combo, it's better to pack more aggro-oriented creatures such as Voidmage.

[Rico Suave]

My biggest problem with Thief is that it doesn't do anything to the board.  You spend all that valuable mana to remove things they probably wouldn't draw anyway.  Kai on the other hand deals with what they do draw, which is a lot more important to winning.  Why not just counter the lone B2B that would make a difference, instead of removing copies and getting eaten alive by the one they draw?  Even then, Tog is a much better target to remove, considering they can't win without it.

Anyway, if I were going to a tournament tomorrow, I would definitely play the decklist in the opening post.  I don't see anything wrong with it that could be fixed without playing a different deck.

EDIT-About this Rack and Ruin vs. Energy Flux debate, you have to realize that Energy Flux is awful whenever your opponent draws Tangle Wire.  It's also terrible whenever you have Null Rod on the board.  If that weren't enough, Energy Flux is weak to REB, and slightly weak when they have Metalworker on the board.  Rack and Ruin is great in all those situations, and how often are you going to need to nuke more than 2 artifacts?  Choose your targets wisely, and you will do fine.

[TheRock]

What is 2 power over 1 power if you're going to win anyway? That being said, when your meta isn't infested with combo, it's better to pack more aggro-oriented creatures such as Voidmage.

It may not be in black and white, but it can be a very big difference in how many turns they have to beat you.

If you can do three damage a turn, then you win in 7 turns.  If you can do four damage a turn, then you win in 5 turns.  If you can do five damage a turn, then you win in 4 turns.

Now this is, of course, assuming that no life is being lost or gained and there is no removal, etc., but I believe this can prove my point regardless.  Having a creature capable of doing two damage instead of one also means that you may not have to activate a manland in order to kill quickly.  You could use that mana to use a Stifle or Standstill instead.

In short, Voidmage allows your entire deck, specifically the counterbase, to work more effieciently by:
     * Reducing the number of turns needed to win AND/OR
     * Allowing the player to use mana for non-damage purposes.

[wuaffiliate]

hmm, thing is that combo really isnt all that popular right now. there is dragon, which you can deal with, there is deathwishlong.dec which mana denial, spiketails, daze, stifle, crypt, rod, fow, voidmage deal with, and TPS which is basically delt with like long. rootwater thief is not going to make a difference vs combo, kai will, hes a solid un-duressable counter who attacks for 2, and makes 4 of your other threats hard counters.

i could see rootwater being used before restrictions, but how its just irrelivant, there is no advantage in using a threat than improves already decent matches.

[Hi-Val]

I ran Rootwaters when Long was still legal in a tourney with unlimited proxies. If I could get to the second turn, I would much rather have Rootwaters than Voidmages. 98% of the time, Kai is a better choice. But when that 2% of the time rolls around, Rootwater is just gold. One swing can neuter many decks. Again, what is the difference (when playing against Stax, Keeper, etc. with 1-2 win conditions) between winning in 7 turns vs. 5 turns when your opponent CANNOT win?

Rootwater isn't as strong with the new restrictions. But when I played him, he went the distance. I wouldn't reccommend it now, because it is a metagame choice. That's all it is. Considering that, it is a powerful metagame choice.

[BreathWeapon]

Ya, i've got one big reason why everybody should stick with PTW's creature base ... Oath of Druids. Now that Oath is banned from Extended a lot of budget players are using them in T1 now. I think given enough time, this deck will start to surface in Top 8-16's. If you look at the amount of Aggro being played in Europe, the total lack of Combo in NE and the emphasis on budget being an exceptable option again ... Oath is just screaming to be abused.

Whether or not PTW intended his creature base to be all but immune to Oath, the fact that you can sac Kai for UU, pop the Hatchling for a Force Spike, kill your own Lavamancer and Cycle Cloud of Faeries is going to be a big deal.

Its also another reason why I love Stifle as a 4x.

[TheRock]

You are making the assumption that you can always GET the kill, right?  If that kill is in their hand, then your plan does not work.

2% is not a very high rate of success for a card that you want to run at least 3 of.

Thief probably would be good against Oath if you hit the Thief first.

[Rico Suave]

BreathWeapon, Oath is not a valid reason to stick with one particular creature base.  Man-lands own Oath well enough, anyway.

Even assuming you had a better point, Razorfin Hunter can also kill itself.  While we're on this subject, the fact Spiketail must sacrifice itself to be of use is actually a BAD thing in conjunction with Curiosity.  

I'm glad you raised these points though, if only to show how good Hunter is in comparison to Spiketail.

[Jamino]

Maybe this is just me thinking random thought of no importance, but why are you even talking about oath and how to adapt a creature base to it?
Right now no one plays oath, in a few months no one will play oath. The reasons are simple its a combo that is dead vs quite a few decks and when you can oath its not even game over. How good is that? Throw in the fact that it is green, a colour no one in there right mind unless they are a R/G Beatz or Big O fan would or should play. That also means builing you deck around it. If you take a look at all the most succesful oath decks in general their whole deck is build around having an active oath. Dont have that oath and you are hardcasting morphlings. You will have as many man lands as them. After side you have maze of ith and a oath deck will not be mono green so that means they are susceptible to wastelands and disruption which also leads to you win the game.
Now, im sure a deck could be invented with a way around this that still uses oath, but its not here yet and we have no reason to even remotely worry.

Now, all the people who have said spiketail hatchling must sacrifice itself to be useful couldnt be more far from the truth.
Take a look at the deck carefuly. Its all Nonbasic mana denial. Play against big O and half of you deck is dead. In this case do you generally sac a Spiketail to counter there rootwala? The answer is simply no. Almost no matter what your board position is. The secret to playing those decks is to race and chump. The deck is like infy creatures so losing one here and there is not a problem remeber your guys may be small but they all have flying. Take a few hits, while your beating. Then beat with your flyers, chump, beat, chump, beat ect..vs aggro unless you are already denying him serious mana or he somehow doesnt notice it and plays something that is a must counter or will make you lose another creature dont counter it, just beat and chump. At first it seems like you are just going to lose, but when the aggro players startes keeping his guys in defensive position to block your kais and factorys, you know your onto something.

I will not adress the point on rootwater theives as Wu- and others have adressed this point very well. If your not in a combo heavy metagame, dont play them! That simple.

Hope some of this helps,
         Jamino

[Misemaster]

Considring the rise of big O has anyone considered running a waterfrount bouncer/ gilded drake creature base in Gay/r? I have not tested it as of yet but it does seem like it could have many advantages. Razorfin hunter and sigil of sleep have been suggest as a solution but  think that the bouncer and gilded drake are a more powerful solution.

I have cut daze from the list and as a result spiketail has not always been what it once was in my testing so i would most likely run bouncers in my main deck over them. I am not sure about running gilded drake main. It would depend on the meta. No matter what meta I was in I would only want to run 3 so i would probably removed 3 voidmages for them and have an open slot.

The advatages of it I think are that both creatures are just a house against most of the top decks in the metagame right now.

Against hulk it is hard for them to win with an active bouncer out and taking a Tog with gilded drake is a very strong play. Hulk was never really a problem for me in the past but with the addition of back to basics in some build the matchup has increased in difficulty.

Against mask the applications are obivous keeping the naught in there hand or taking a 12/12 sounds pretty damn good to me. If you wanted to be a jerk you could put a curosity on the dreadnaught too. Mmm so good  

Against big o an active bouncer will always be good for you helping to stop them from beating back harder on the ground than you can in the air. Gilded drake is mediocore in this matchup but taking a mongrel or arrogant wurm can be good. It is the bouncer that really shines.

Against dragon the gilded drake is awful but an active bouncer with all of gay/r's other tools makes it almost impossible for them to go off. Sounds good to me.

Against GAT you can keep counters of dryads, bounce togs, or just plain take them away.

A matchup where it is really lacking is against keeper. Most of the time the boucner will just be a vanilla 1/1 that hopefully can get some damage through. However, you can bounce tokens into non-exsistance so it isnt totally useless.

They do not really shine against welder mud either but they have there uses. The bouncer keeps welder from being active, and you can steal a welder with the drake although i wouldnt recommend it without a bouncer on the board.

Looking at my matchup analysis the bouncer is strong in most of the top matchups and its a worthy maindeck canidate. The gilded drake is only good sometimes so I would probably relegate it to the sideboard. Any thoughts?