i have always had a special place for oath decks. one because its just extremely powerful and secondly it won me a black lotus (long time ago but even then it was a horrible list, i was just playing against a meta that a place like this I'm sure would classify as "jank", and i would include myself in said jank), so i have been reading the elephant oath discussion with some interest. it has got me thinking though. can oath be in a deck without being the primary focus? what would a deck like that look like, and would it even work?

i decided that if oath can be used as a transformal sb concept why not transform the concept of what oath can be. maybe it doesn't have to be the focus of the deck. lets treat it like another restricted bomb and only run 1 oath. ???? but to what end? what would one oath accomplish? the best answer i could think of is that 1 oath acts like tinker #2. if you look at it that way then it kind of makes some sense. if i run only 1 robot and no other creatures then activated oath = tinker/bot.

with this in mind i needed to find a shell to put into. i figured since tinker is what i was turning oath into why not run it in a shell where tinker is awfully good on its own. so this is my take on a vault/key deck with a lone oath stuffed into it. **note: at this stage its more theoretical of course but i do plan on testing this deck especially as now i am finding my way back into the magic scene in my area and can find people to bounce ideas/decks off**

i don't have a lot of experience playing restricted blue.dec so this is based on what i see most lists running, at least as a starting point anyway. i would be interested to see if anyone thinks this idea has some merit and if it does what they might change to make it better

one of the thoughts i had in starting this idea is that blue decks seem to struggle against shop deck, with oath being the exception. well why not steal some oath goodness into a blue deck? should give you a much better answer to sphere.dec in the main and all sorts of funky options in the sb

t-vo (tinker-vault-oath)

2 islands
1 snow island
1 tolarian acc
2 city of brass
3 un sea
1 tropical
1 volcanic
1 bayou
3 delta
2 misty rf

1 black lotus
5 moxen
1 petal
1 crypt
1 sol ring
1 mox opal
1 mana vault

1 jace MS
1 tezz
1 tinker
1 inky lev(or sphinx)
1 oath

4 force of will
2 mana drain
3 spell pierce

1 time vault
1 volt key

1 time twister
1 demonic t
1 regrowth
1 vamp t
1 merchant scroll
1 timewalk
1 a. recall
1 yag will
1 ancient grudge
2 thoughtsieze
1 natures claim
1 dia edict
1 mystical t
1 cunning wish
1 brainstorm

there are some cool tricks this deck can do. if you have half the vault/key in you hand and either regrowth or yagwill then an activated oath will give you a very good chance to find the other piece without actually having to pay for the search (ie bring it from the yard after activation).

the best feature of this deck (i think anyway) is that it gets you all of oath's goodness without any of oaths shortcomings. no orchards is huge and can be done as it isn't the primary direction of the deck anyway. no uncastable fatties (well no more so than any tinker/bot target anyway) that are dead for too long. no need for scroll rack and other weak draw cards to fiddle with the oath plan(although a single sylvan library might be nice period). but you always have the oath in the deck lurking waiting for a moment to be broken and that's always fun.

anyway, thought? 

OK so been awhile since i posted on this deck, so just thought i would updated on the progress I'm making. to be honest i felt like i had pushed it about as far as i think it was going to go with the card choices i was making so i decided to set the deck down for a bit and try to find some inspiration from some different sources. so where did i turn? legacy. after noticing that legacy was not restricting LED or lotus petal i figured there had to be some pretty mean combo builds out the just blatantly abusing this type of acceleration and i was right. combo may be stronger and faster in legacy vs vintage and that is just down right scary. the deck i was drawn to was Spanish inquisition, more specifically the pact versions which are faster but more risky(this is still a project goldfish deck right?). of course me being me i had to change a few things to see if i could make it more fitting to my style of play. i ended up gutting one of inquisitions key elements in the long run. it really abuses culling of the weak to help the acceleration of the deck. for me that always seemed to situational as the deck also only ran as few as 6 creatures. even with the pacts that just doesn't seem consistant to me. so i took it out but kept the draw 4 package(4 infernal contract, 4 cruel bargins) along with some other staples of the deck. anyway the end result is that these types of decks in legacy are legit hitting 60%+ first turn wins some claiming as high as 80%. i know that seems really high but after playing my version for a while now i believe it to be possible as mine is over 50% right now and I'm still tinkering with it.

so whats the point? i know its not vintage but it does get me thinking if a vintage Inquisition deck might be faster than the legacy builds. i look all over and couldn't find a good vintage build anywhere. people seem to think that infernal tutor isn't that great if you don't have the 4 LED to empty in response. well after playing my version i know for a fact that the deck empties its hand pretty easily without the LED in play at all. so i will post my legacy list up here for anyone interested in that list and also to get some ideas flowing for what a vintage Inquisition deck might look like. at some point over the next few days i will sit down and make an attempt to build a vintage build but for now i still trying to learn the subtleties of this type of deck in legacy so i am better prepared to know what i am looking for in the vintage build as well.

as a side note to anyone who has played SI in legacy how do you guys not run more slithermuses(freaking busted BTW def gonna be in the vintage build)? i find it to be what i tutor for almost 100% of the time unless i need tendrils to win. it nets you the most cards and can either be used as fodder for culling or just evoked to do the job anyway like my version does.

Spanish goldfish

1 bayou
1 city of brass

4 LED
4 lotus petal
4 chrome mox

4 land grant
4 summoners pact

4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 ESG

4 infernal tutor
1 living wish

4 infernal contract
3 cruel bargin
3 slithermuse
4 street wraith

4 duress
3 tendril

well there it is. probably not what you were expecting if you have played SI before but it is awfully fast in this version. i think its over 50% maybe more as i am still new to the deck. anyway as far as vintage goes will it be a huddle to get past not having 4 LED and 4 petals? most definitely but there are just so many busted cards in vintage that i can't see it not happening. will it be faster than we were before? my hunch says yes but I'm not sure by how much. might just be a % point or two faster. it could be 20% faster, time will tell but the cards that this deck has exposed me to make me feel getting a turn 1 deck in vintage might still be possible after all.

just to put it out there i have not tested the cullling builds. i went straight into my own versions. before i make the change back to vintage builds i will test the creatured versions of SI to see if they are better/faster. I'm all for making decks faster and i have been wrong (lol a lot) before so it would surprise me to see i was going about it wrong.

anyway happy comboing!   

ripcord- because honestly academy is not that important to the deck. it runs enough acceleration through rituals/artifacts that putting in the necessary cards to make it really academy themed would actually slow the deck down. I'm shooting for turn 1 and that means only one tap of a land and that might mean only 1-2 mana off tolarian. it could be for 8 but counting on that isn't realistic. i think tolarian blue could be strong right now(ug especially) but not as a turn 1 deck and that's what I'm shooting for currently. in my belcher build i could see going to a 3 crop rotation set up as the deck is more streamlined and focused. in that version with so many more artifacts running around academy does get much more powerful so its worth trying to fit a few more tricks in to work with it.

OK so i went back to the standard tendrils approach and i do think tendrils is better at ripping turn 1 kills. its still not that impressive a number currently but i will continue to work at it. i tried ancient stirrings again in the tendrils version and its not that impressive(though it really shines in the belcher version) so i have moved back to something closer to what i had before i tried belcher.

anyway

PGF type toa Vx.5

1 trop
1 bayou
1 tolarian (lol it is good just not worth basing this deck around with the 4 crop rotations)
4 land grant

1 lotus
5 solo mox (i still think pearl could be something else but it was working well with 5 so i left it that way)
1 petal
1 crypt
1 sol ring
1 mana vault
3 chrome mox
2 mox opal
4 dark ritual
1 cabal ritual
4 manamorpose

4 chro sphere
4 helm of awakening
3 repeal

4 street wraith (i go between these and preordain. they don't work together at all so it has to be one or the other. right now its the wraiths. free is a good thing  right?)

1 a recall
3 meditate
1 wheel of fortune

1 demonic tutor
1 yag will
4 nights whisper

3 tendrils

anyway there it is. don't have a ton of testing on it but it feels pretty good. still trying to work on this deck as it is a fun project

darkenslight- neat trick but seems to be a win more card at best. this deck ususally isn't worried about getting more. what it wants is for the spells it does use to be very specific in their roles. draw/tutor, mana and that's pretty much it. if i can make SS be useful i can probably just win right there on the spot so why would i bother with SS. if not then i have yag will or mind's desire that are already more powerful than SS anyway. plus it's white and that is a tough sell especially with WW in the cost. at w1 i might have taken interest but not at WW1. I'd rather play false dawn and i already tired that and it wasn't all that good. again interesting but not much help

for anyone intersted in have also tried a belchered out list of this deck. i will post it as it is pretty quick and actually in a way more consistant as it is only 3 colors (ugr). before i made the belcher list i was toying with a card that really helps the belch builds but seemed to be working in the tendrils list as well though as a 3 of instead of a full 4. the card: ancient stirrings. i never wrote down a full tendrils list with the stirrings in it but i will get back to the tendrils build at some point soon. when i do i will post a tendrils w/stirrings list

anyway

PGF type b

1 tropical island
1 tolarian academy
4 land grant

1 lotus
5 solo mox
1 petal
1 crypt
1 mana vault
1 sol ring
4 chrome mox
1 mox opal (could easily replace ESG #4 for a second one of these)

4 ESG
3 SSG
4 manamorphose
1 crop rotation
4 ancient stirring

3 helm awakening (this is a PGF deck after all)
4 voltaic key

1 time Vault
2 g belcher
1 emrakul

1 a recall
1 time walk
1 time twister
1 wheel of fortune
1 tinker
3 dream cache
4 preordain


i have also be thinking of running the single burning wish and putting yag and desire in the sb as well as some other wishable targets. haven't really tested this at all yet just an idea at this point. somethink like this as a tool box

1 mind desire
1 yagwin
1 tendrils
1 twister/wheel etc, etc, etc

might not be a bad way to go as the deck doesn't NEED yag will to win but it can help. just a though ....

OK here is an up dated list. a few changes again but minor this time. will discuss below

p.o.s v2.2.1

land 15
4 verdant catacombs
4 bayou
5 swamp
1 forest
1 green fetch

other mana 9
1 black lotus
4 dark ritual
4 elvish spirit guide

enchantments 6
2 pernicious deed
4 hidden heard

creatures 7
4 dark confidant
3 abyssal persicutor

other 23
4 cabal therapy (duress)
2 unmask (the turn one plays of this is sooo good!)
3 extripate (wasn't destroying/discarding enough to warrent 4)
1 sadistic sacrament
1 demonic tutor
1 vamp tutor
3 natures claim
3 diabolic edict
3 berserk
2 skeletal srying

sb
1 extripate
2 tormods crypt
3 thoughtsieze
3 null rod
2 seal of primordium
4 nether void

anyway that's the list as of now. as far as testing i am a bit in the dark. i am just getting back into things and am mainly doing this on my own via goldfish games. testing specifics are guesses at best but i feel i have a decent idea of what makes a deck work or not. as far as how this deck would play out in a tourney i am unfortunately not in a position to say. the idea of the deck was a reaction to what i was seeing as far as lists go on morphling.de. i felt that this would be a line of attack that would be well prepared to handle much of the top decks being used as it has MD answers to most of the big threats commonly seen with the possible exception being true combo. so with all that being said take my reasoning with a grain of salt.

anyway as to some specific card choices

heard vs other hiddens: heard is just the most consistant of them all, plus it meets other criteria as well. it kills loadstone, and most non pumped creatures that see play in vintage. in a weird way it can be mana denial if they are overly worried of it. rogue elephant saw play in r/g stompy and this is basically that only better. it also isn't totally dead later in the game. i also went to just the heards at 4 instead of the 6 3/3 split. hiddens are still conditional so they can just be dead cards at times. going to 4 with the most consistently seen trigger i felt was a good move. it might slow the clock down just a bit but makes the deck more consistant against a wider array of decks.

cabal- well i think for what the deck is trying to do that this is the best card for the slot. its flashback cost is an important part of the deck now with the 3 fatties looming and it can be more than 1 for 1. if i wasn't running persicutor i would run something else probably thoughsieze.

nether void- have not had time to really test this but with 4 rituals and 4 esg casting this early vs combo seems like it is really doable. as i have said haven't tested it at all yet but it just seems like it is gg if it sticks. this deck can operate under the void better than most and certainly better than combo can. i will use extripate to aggressively go after fetch lands against combo. this should disrupt their mana base enough to give me a shot. plus with esg and ritual you can play around spell pierce or even bluff around it once they know what you are running.

3 edicts- i think this is the right number. oath can be a problem as i need creatures in play to win so i want answers to fatties that persictor can't handle. seeing as how oath and tinker/bot won't generally have many other creatures in play i think edict is a good choice here as well. plus it gives me an emergency out to persicutor if i need it.

the extra fetch- i was finding that i was drawing the forests too often. with adding the esg i felt it was OK to leave only one forest main. plus at it's heart this is a black deck so the green is the support color not the main attraction

unmask and scrying- i will lump these together as they seem to be the ones i have to deffend the most. this is an aggressive deck and unmask allows me to be very aggressive if i draw it in my opener. it also gets under sphere effects well and can be hard cast later in the game. allows me to scout for the cabals as well. all in all i feel like playing 2 is OK. more would probably be a mistake but i feel OK at 2. scrying is a bit harder to explain. it is more of a source of pressure as i loose steam more than anything else. i can cast my hand out in the first few turns fairly easily. scrying allows me to get back into the game if i over commit and get burned on it(top deck balance against me is pretty rough). if i don't find bob this is a good back up plan as far as draw goes. originally i had sylvan library in the deck but i think the versatility of this is better. it can do some neat tricks against tarmogoyf as well in a pinch 


the last thing i will say is this. this deck should be played more like r/g stompy than sui-black. sui black is a control deck that finishes with beats eventually or uses them as a form of control. this is beats with disruption and there is a big difference. i am looking to be the aggressive one not the reactive one. i want them to deal with me not the other way around. my threats need to be bigger so that even if they get something down they still need to deal with me as my clock is hopefully faster. have your bob as my persicutor will still smash your face in kind of attitude. winning is all that matters. control doesn't care about life if it has board position, this deck doesn't care about board position if its about to finish the job. just go for the win and think about plan b later. as the belcher thread said it best: be aggressive, b e aggressive

thanks for the interst and suggestions

thanks for showing interest in the deck and for the insight.

here are a few changes i have made.

-1 mox jet
-1 mox emerald
+1 dark ritual
+1 ESG

the reason i did this is i am still running null rods in the sb. plus it lends to the explosive nature of the deck, and esg slips under sphere effects. all of these things are things that i feel make my tough matchups better without losing to much to anyone else

-3 hidden gibbons
+3 hidden heard

yes the heard is less of a body but it comes online against almost if not everybody and is still a bigger body(3/3) than most critters seeing play in vintage right now. plus it still allows for turn 1 double hidden plays that hippie and nighthawk don't. if i would run one of them it would be nighthawk but for now i like the hidden stuff better.

-1 edict
+1 persicutor

with the 4 cabals in i feel i can safely run 2 of these monsters(if anything i really want to put number 3 in as well). i lose one of the ways to get rid of him but i still have 3x berserk, 2x edict, 2x deed, and the 4x cabals. getting him in play makes beating face a whole lot easier. that's how this deck works best. getting threats in play that have to be dealt with. it loves to play the beatdown role hence i crumble to combo as my control plays aren't that strong. combo is a bad match for me but the good news is that true combo decks are being replaced with control combo decks and control i can stand a chance against with the 3 md extripates and other disruption i run. true combo will most likely wreck me, but that's what a sb is for right?

the sb now looks like this
1 extripate
2 tormods crypt
3 thoughtsieze
3 null rod
2 seal of primordium
4 nether void

i feel that this covers my bases pretty well. I'm not sure i have enough hate against dredge but i do have the 3 md extripates as well. against combo i will mull aggressively to find a void. if it sticks i think it should wrap the game up right there. i would probably take out the sacrament but I'm not sure, might be too good not to leave in.

as to the depths idea. like i said it might just be better. i like the idea of what this deck is. its like a beefed up fish deck taking more risks for bigger bodies and faster clocks. fish is always annoying to deal with and this deck doesn't give you much time to find answers. plus it can be much more explosive than fish. the turn one plays of this deck can be really strong for an aggro deck both in terms of fatties and also in disruption. that's not a claim a lot of decks can make.

anyway thanks. keep the ideas coming. the deck is much better than when it started but there is always room to improve right?

Lochinvar81- thanks for the suggestions over in my project goldfish deck. after seeing someone ask if MDT and such were faster than 0-land belcher i started thinking that maybe belcher wasn't a bad way to go. after messing around a bit I'm not sure one is faster than the other but i have found a card that seems to fit perfectly in belcher(especially in the 4 opal builds): ancient stirring. this seems like an absolute no brainer in a build like this. it gets you belcher, either vault or key, robot, any artifact mana you can name, and also can either clear out land(if you are running any) by getting it in you hand or putting it at the bottom of the deck. i did a search on this website and it only seems to get mentioned in shop builds. having messed with it in my tendrils deck and now in a belcher shell it really seems to fit extremely well in this style of fast paced artifact heavy deck. it doesn't get ETW but it gets everything else so maybe a 3 of instaed of the full 4. all of this for 1 green mana! anyway I'll post my list though its not really a 0-land build

project goldfish type b


1 tropical island
1 tolarian academy
4 land grant

1 lotus
5 solo mox
1 petal
1 crypt
1 mana vault
1 sol ring
4 chrome mox
1 mox opal (could easily replace ESG #4 for a second one of these)

4 ESG
3 SSG
4 manamorphose
1 crop rotation
4 ancient stirring

3 helm awakening (this is a PGF deck after all)
4 voltaic key

1 time Vault
2 g belcher
1 emrakul

1 a recall
1 time walk
1 time twister
1 wheel of fortune
1 tinker
3 dream cache
4 preordain

this deck is pretty quick as well. i had a build that was slower but much more resilient and had ETW that could pop out 4-10+ tokens early and then try to race. not as flashy but much more practical. anyway just was wondering about the ancient stirring idea.

Kibbs

wow, someone who didn't want to rip the helms out, nice. the eggs are neat but unless you can find away to a way to reduce the activation cost of them they are just too slow. manamophose is far better and the sphere is cheaper to get basically the same effect if not a better.

the idea was to make a deck that was as fast as possible. i did not know about Meandeck Tendrils at the time so i thought that turn 2 was pretty quick. as it turns out turn 1 is more the number you need to look at. having played several variations now using some of MDT tech to help me along i think that looking at a turn one deck is still slightly out of reach, but not nearly as far as i had though when i first started this. these decks are very fast, and fun if you just want something to mess around with.

i did get explore into the deck and have actually been pretty pleased with it so far. i also gave in and have added repeal to the deck. it has its moments but i don't think its an auto 4 of. i think 2 or 3 is more reasonable. maybe its because i have gotten merchant scroll back into the deck and if that is in my hand i would rather search out hurk's recall and really do something really broken rather than just a single trick. i also tried demonic consultation for a whopping 1 game. consult for dark rit and 35 cards later that experiment was over. just too risky for my taste.

well here is the latest version. as you will see i made a few changes, most of which have helped. this version seems to be running pretty smoothly at the moment and i have hopes that getting to 60% turn 1 might just be possible. this is close to if not over 40% right now and i still think it can be better. anyway ...

project goldfish(like PGF name better) Vx.3

4 land grant
1 trop island
1 bayou
1 tolarian
1 city of brass

1 lotus
4 mox (no pearl)
1 petal
1 crypt
3 chrome mox
1 mox opal
1 mana vault

3 helm of awakening
4 manamorphose
3 cro sphere

4 dark rits
2 cabal rits
1 explore

3 meditate
1 mind desire
1 an recall
4 preordain
4 repeal
1 merchant scroll

1 yag will
1 demonic tutor
4 nights whisper
3 tendrils

amduck- umask might be better than both as it is a freebie in this deck as it runs enough black to pull it off

ducan- in the right build yes i think it goldfishes more turn 1's than belcher but belcher is waaaaay more playable right now. to get the resliency that belcher(lol how many times has THAT been said) this deck would loose its speed. this is truely a 56-58 card engine and all parts are needed. take anyway and it slows down. i never started this saying it was better just wanted to see what was possible to see if it was wirth looking at

OK first off thanks to all for taking an interest in this project.

as a quick side note i was wrong in the statement i made about the mull/turn 2 thing. i was playing dw egg incorrectly. in my haste to build and test the deck i proxied them up quickly but wrote had the cost/activation wrong. i had thought it was 1 and 1, but infact it is 1 and 2. that makes huge deal. at 1 and 1 its as good if not better than manamophose. at 1 and 2 chromatic sphere is better/cheaper. at 1/1 dw egg the deck was pretty close to 70% turn 1 kills. lol it was gross, but alas i was mistaken. well, i just have to move forward with the deck anyway with what i can.

i understand how good MDT was/is. having a deck to base my mana base off was extremely helpful. that being said, i do think that there is some merit to helm/meditate over repeal/spoils. repeal draws one card and makes 1 or 2 extra mana(sometimes losing mana) at most. helm makes almost every single card in the deck faster. how can a deck trying to win turn 1 not love that? i have not tested repeal yet as i have been trying to make this deck more my own but i have found helm to be extremely powerful. i would encourage anyone who is actually trying this style deck to at least try it. maybe it is strongest in a deck more like mine. i think it could be just as strong in something closer to the original MDT build as well. another not so small side benefit to helm is that it actually could be pretty handy against shops if you wanted to make try to this deck viable

as far as meditate vs spoils its more changing one potentail suicide for another. my deck lists tend to not run as many 4 of's as MDT so the spoils are more risky. in my deck you won't lose because you run out of life and you won't lose because you exile all your win cons. both of these are real possabilities with MDT/spoils but not with my deck. if you lose you lose because you stall and that is the only reason you lose ever. in turn 1 tendrils if your opponent sees the extra turn you lose. whether hey see 1 extra turn or 4 it doesn't matter. so to me meditates upside is better than spoils. think about it: would LONG have run 4 wheel of fortune if it could? yes, yes it would have. meditate is as close as you can get so why not run them. in my current build i am down to 3 with a twister in there as  the 4th 3cc bomb. wheel is better but twister is on color and yes that is an issue sometimes. for now its twister but storm is right, in a vacuum wheel is a lot better. some combo if these 3 cards will end up in the deck but i am still testing to figure out which combination is best.

having played(all be it wrongly) the deck while it was running at 70% turn 1 kills i felt drunk with giddiness(lol even a word?). coming down from that has been rough but i am committed to trying to get this back to close to that number. maybe i can't do it with my mediate/helm engine. i would like to try however and so i shall.

here is my current list FWIW. running around 30% turn 1, and 60 turn 2 (not that turn 2 matters if we can make it fast enough)

blunt force trauma v1.2

4 land grant
1 tolarian acc
1 bayou
1 trop island

1 lotus
4 mox (no pearl)
1 petal
1 crypt
1 mox opal
3 chrome mox
2 ESG
1 mana vault
4 d. rits
3 c. rits
1 crop rotation

4 helm of awakening
2 chromatic sphere
4 manamorphose

4 n. whisper
4 preordain
1 a. recall
1 brainstorm
1 yag will
3 meditate
2 tendrils
2 grim tutor
1 d. tutor
1 t. twister
 

a few notes to anyone interested on potential cards.

top deck tutors aren't good in this deck at all. it needs to be in your hand to be good. i tired running 2-4 STD to help but its not fast enough. merchant scroll while not really a true tutor is still better that the top deck tutors.

mox opal is actually proving to be quite strong, but i would not run more than 2 and probably 1 is the better number.

tolarian is what it is. if you can get it into play it is usually helpful but it isn't as strong in the early developing stages. you need colored mana fast. it's better than tapping for 1 but a lot of the time it is tapped before it can really become gamebreaking. i still think its worthy of inclusion but i am looking for alterate ways to get it into play. explore is a card i am looking to maybe take the place of crop rotation as it cantrips and it's effect doesn't have to be used on the spot. it is one more mana though and that is always an issue

chrome mox is stronger than i originally gave it credit for especially in a deck looking to play 3 colors. instead of 4 i am running 3 with an opal as chrome #4. seems to be working OK. casting chrome with no imprint is a good storm boost. getting 4 in you hand sucks so 3 it is

false dawn is a card i tried as well. it got pearl into the deck but going to five colors is really stretching the mana base(too much for my taste). it's an interesting concept that might work if you put more effort into making FD the focal point of the deck. maybe replace helm with FD?

regrowth i have tried as well. its kind of blah. OK sometimes rather underwhelming most of the time. if you have wheel in the deck it might be a better inclusion in that build

grim tutor i am still undecided about. its a full blown tutor but the cost is rough. really only great when I'm ready to win, otherwise its over costed in this style deck. still worth testing

wheel of fortune should be in the deck, but that makes the deck a full 4 colors and that is really stretching the mana base. if you can figure out how to get the manabase to handle it by all means play this card. I'm struggling on the mana thing as once you go over 3 color things get tricky real quick

perilous research and see beyond i have given a shot as well. see beyond has good synergy with tolarian and crop rotation but it is only replaces itself in your hand. perilous research was OK. didn't test it a ton but it does have a true 2 card draw for 2 mana. has to be worth testing as the sacking can make yagwill pretty ridiculous too

LED is one i am always unsure of. the upside is huge but the down is just as bad. if i ran twist and wheel would definitely include it and may try to get it in anyway. more testing needed here

anyway thanks for the insight from all of you. i am constantly adjusting this deck list to try other approaches and will continue to update as i change/improve the deck.

now a few questions of my own:

leyline of anticipation? i would think this card would be an obvious SB card. lol winning on turn .5 would be something really cool especially against shops. i know it is used in some belcher builds so maybe it belongs here as well

serum powder? hear me out ... if you built this deck around the idea of running these you could probably run a few Anticipation md. might require a complete retool of the deck but maybe .... just a thought

don't have time to explain some choices but i wanted to get the list up. will put some explanations up tomorrow but here is the list as of today

project goldfish+MeanDeck Tendrils = Blunt force trauma?

land 3
1 bayou
1 tropical island
1 tolarian academy

0 cc stuff
1 black lotus
1 mox jet
1 mox emerald
1 mox saphire
1 mox ruby
1 lotus petal
1 mana crypt
3 chrome mox
4 land grant

1cc stuff
4 dark ritual
2 crop rotations
1 ancestral recall
1 mana vault
4 preordain
4 darkwater egg
3 chromatic sphere

2 cc stuff
3 cabal ritual
3 manamorphose
3 helm of awakening
1 merchant scroll
1 demonic tutor

3 cc stuff
4 meditate
1 yagmoth will
1 wheel of fortune

4 cc stuff
3 tendrils of agony

still testing some stuff. again more explanations tomorrow. it's really fun to play. to put it in a way that will put it in perspective you are more likely to lose because you mull into nothing then not go off and win by the end of turn 2. yeah its that fast

lol ok yeah .... wow ... so, um, yeah the Meandeck Tendrils shell is studid fast. i am running a modified version of it but still it's just outright scary fast. i will post the list tomorrow but yes project goldfish just got a whole lot faster. i did stay true to my deck and got all the things in that make it mine but the MDT lists were a great help. they where pretty much spot on as far as what needs to be in there to make something like this even possible. it is very consistant and it is fast, very, very, VERY, fast.

ozy- probably not at this moment, no. if u look a % of turn 2 kills i think it would be pretty close with my deck maybe edging ANT out by just a bit but probably not by much at all. i didn't claim it was as fast as ANT but it is fast and looking at turn 2 as the only criteria maybe it is. that being said with the meditates running rampant in it, the deck tends to be all or nothing all the time. if you fizzle then u just die as your opponent will then usually  have 2-4+ uncontested turns in a row. lol not good. anyway MDT makes my current list irrelevant as I'm nothing close to that level of efficiency

ten-ten- thanks for the links. i guess turn 2 is too slow. stephen's list are always impressive as are his articles in general. the funny thing is that my deck suffers from the opposite problem he stated(mana issues). i tend to run out of business spells and fizzle because just run out of things to do. apparently i am running too much land and not enough goods.

even seeing those lists i think meditate, helm of awakening and crop rotation/tolarian can be spliced together into a pretty killer list. i am not going to scrap project goldfish completely but those list just offer so much tech that a redesign is in order. would like to push PGF and MDT into a single hybrid monster. will do some more testing with some of MDT's approaches to the problem and see if i can solve some of the issues that deck see with some of the raw draw power PGF abuses.  anyway thanks for the interest in the deck. i told you Ferrari's were fun!

OK so here is my project i have been working on: project goldfish. so when i started this project i had what i thought was a very simple goal: build a deck that goldfished as quickly and consistently as possible. as a goal i set the target turn as turn 2 as turn 3 kills in vintage are not that uncommon. this meant that if the deck had not won by the end of turn 2 i wrote it up as a loss. because of this it means i try to "go off" on turn 2 or before every game no matter what the cards are or my odds of top decking into "the goods" and pulling out the win. in trying to accomplish this goal i knew that conventional deck building with plans A, B, C and protection A, B, and C were all pretty much out the door. if i wanted to get the job done on turn 2 or before there would be no room for "disruption" or counters or anything like that. i was going for it in true goldfishing fashion so anything that wasn't there to make the deck faster/better was out. this in turn  opened up more slots for what i wanted: speed.

so at this point i hope you all understand i am not claiming its a good deck by any means. infact reaching the goal i wanted is turning out to be much more elusive than i thought it would. i thought that stripping away the counter/disruption and replacing it with more draw/acceleration would be the key to going stupid. as it turns out going stupid by turn 2 is stupid hard to do. even in a deck tuned just to do that very thing its just tough to pull it off in a consistant manner. at least for me and my skills anyway.

i will say that because of the shortness of the games(every game is no longer than 2 turns) that i have been able to play a ridiculous amount of games with this deck. and that is why i am now here. i want to see if it can be pushed farther than i have been able to get it. at best i would say i am able to push a win out by turn 2 around 30% of the time. in my head i feel like the deck is closer to 40% but when i try to crunch the numbers its around 30% maybe even a bit under that.

i will now give list of what it looks like now. i will also talk a bit about things that are not in right now and  what else i have tried and liked or disliked in the deck. i will also list a few card that i have not tried at all as well to see what people think of them

project goldfish V x.1

land 12
4 city of brass
4 forbidden city
3 ancient tomb
1 tolarian academy

other mana 17
1 black lotus
1 mox jet
1 mox emerald
1 mox saphire
1 mox opal
1 lotus petal
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
1 sol ring
4 dark ritual
3 elvish spirit guide
1 cabal ritual

mana fixers 9
2 frantic search
3 crop rotation
4 helm of awakening

draw/tutor/win 22
4 meditate
4 preordain
3 impulse
3 see beyond
1 mind's desire
1 ancestral recall
2 grim tutor
1 demonic tutor
1 yagmoths will
2 tendrils of agony

so there it is. it really is as simple as it gets. a 58 card engine and 2 cards to seal the deal. meditate is the real draw power behind the deck but everything sort of plays off each other in little neat ways. helm of awakening is a shot of jet fuel in a combo deck. its not a must see to win but its awfully close and makes like 50% deck better. hopefully all this power and acceleration adds up to enough to win. right now its not happening as consistently as i think is possible. originally i though something in the 60% range was possible without protection but at this point i would love to even see 40%. 50% or higher would be great but honestly i think that 40% might be the limit and i may not even get to that(stupid proability curves ... lol).


and now for all of you thinking why is this or that not in it, well now i will explain a few biggies right away

not in list:
off color moxen - the deck is too "on color" hungry i feel to run these. i have not tested them yet but they don't seem like enough of a punch to really be good. most often they wily be just a colorless mana. that doesn't help me very often when i am close to winning. if they could be on color they would be in there trust me.

chrome mox- yeah it's on color, but not always. plus it is card disadvantage and i need all the help i can get. only cards that do something else that can be game breaking are worth losing ca over. crop rotation getting academy or frantic search untapping TA but give up a card  are 2 examples of game changers. CM just doesn't do it consistently enough. if you would run these then no more than 2 of at most. its just not THAT strong.

vamp, mystical, imp seal and nercopotence- all of these cards are nutty good, but in my deck they are only good when in your opening hand. remember the game ends on turn 2  so getting necro down on turn 2 is not good enough. it has to be turn 1. all but mystical i have tried and taken out they just aren't fast enough if they are not in my hand turn 1. so they are dead cards more times than not. i would run merchant scroll over all of these with necro being the possible exception. it IS busted after all.

Yagmoths bargin- this is a tough one and one that i find myself wanting to put back into the deck. the fact remains this though. if i tap out to cast a bomb like bargin i would like that bomb to win the game. mind's desire does that for me on a much more consistant basis as the free cost of the spells is a huge deal. even if bargin hits the table, if I'm tapped out(which happens a lot actually) bargin is not an insta win. i have died drawing off it looking for a final piece of the puzzle a few times. on that flip side though is the fact that most of my turn 1 wins have been because of bargin(when it has been in the deck) so it definitely has appeal and is probably the card i most often want to try to make room for. for now it is out though

Lions eye diamond- this card is a case of extremes. if its good its crazy good. when bad its awful though. i don't run a full compliment of draw 7's so this is mainly used off a meditate. not on par with bargin but one that if i change other parts of the deck i can see this being more viable and powerful.

memory jar- two words: no tinker. lol it really is that simple. the cc is too high to be worth it in the same sense as bargin. to invest this much mana i need to win. desire just does it more often than bargin or this does as its way easier to continue playing spells after the fact.

time twister, wheel and other draw 7's- i have tested twister and it has been OK. really only good if i can ramp up mana before i twist and in that case i usually can just win before i need to twist anyway. it has won me otherwise unwinnable games but not very often. wheel and others i am looking at right now as draw 7's are the area i have explored the least. these with some other tweaks might push this deck over the edge.

timewalk and vault/key- just plain and simple the biggest engine i have in the deck is meditate and it has no synergy at all with taking extra turns. i think a different deck built around the premise of taking extra turns could work. i have found making things work in a very short timeframe on a consistant basis is really tough but I'm sure doing a "turn" based deck could be done, i just don't know if it would be faster than what i am trying to do. if you push the clock to 3 turns I'm sure this deck's numbers would improve astronomically as would any combo deck, but pushing back anyone else 's clock to where mine is (turn 2) I'm not sure anything is as close as they think. a true turn 2 win is very difficult (scoops don't count BTW). the turn thing might work. I'd love to see list going in that direction, would be pretty interesting i think.

gemstone mine- this was in a previous version as a 4 of. forbidden city in my crazy f'd up game state works much better. city of brass is still the land u want to see first but because i at max will be getting 1 untap step i will only ever lose 1 card to FC. gemstone dies to frantic searching a few times as well. in fact if it comes out and gets used turn 1 and 2 then  you only have one untap with search available. losing land is bad for this deck. now that i am down to only 2 FS i could see using this again, then again 2 FS plus yagwill is 4 FS so even now its debatable. maybe a mix of FC and gemstone?

brainstorm and ponder- ponder i still wonder about but BS is probably out for good. the main reason BS is out is that it puts cards back on top of my library. that maybe great when you are trying to dodge a duress or trying to do neat oath tricks but when you are trying to win on the spot it can be disheartening. what if you have junk in your hand and draw a spell that won't get you past the 2 bad cards you just put back on top of you library? it just isn't as strong a pure draw/accelerate as it might seem. ponder is still worth looking at. I'm not sure i tested enough with it. Preordain is better for this deck than both of these on turn 1 to help set up the winning turn 2. it just is plus as of now its unrestricted and its not half bad as a digging tool as well. kind of a mini impulse

OK i hope that answered a lot of questions. now onto what i have tested as well. i will just do as list with the card and number of copies. if anyone has any specific questions about these cards and my results i will gladly do my best to explain if i can. some of these cards will seem very bad and they probably are. this deck has seen a lot of changes over time. it started as mono black as i though that was the best way to keep the deck consistant. unfortunately it was just consistently not good. then it went to BU without tolarian and then to BUG that it is now. here is the list, its not completely complete but its most of it.

tested(not in):
brainstorm
ponder
lions eye diamond
timewalk
vamp tutor
imperail seal
merchant scroll
yagmoths bargin
necropotence
fastbond
time twister
regrowth
thirst for knowledge
chrome mox(1-4)
nights whisper(2-4)
ambitions cost(2-3)
foresee(1-3)
tolarian winds(1-4)
skeletal scrying(1-3)
tainted pact(0-4)
street wraith(4)
manamorphose(2-4)


tested (in now)
mox opal (1-2)
dark ritual (3-4)
ESG (2-4)
cabal ritual (1-4)
frantic search (2-4)
crop rotation (2-3)
helm of awakening (2-4)
preordain (3-4)
impulse (2-4)
see beyond (2-4)
grim tutor (1-3)
tendrils (2-3)


untested but interested in:
hurk recall
channel
wheel of fortune
dream halls
vault/key or extra turns period
memory jar
undiscovered paradise
forbidden orchard
off color moxen
mind over matter


OK well that's pretty much it. short of going into every card and every line of play that's all i got. i do have a few games written down play for play (all be it with a different version) if anyone is interested in that. it went 6 of 10 for wins during that stretch. actually with a turn 1 kill to boot. most i have ever ripped off is like 6 or seven games in a row winning. gone near 10 in the other direction though. it has its moments of brilliance but its too inconsistent overall.

i originally was going to make this and then try to add a some more playable features into it to maybe make it a playable deck. now i don't think it will ever get to that point. its just not consistently fast enough to be consistently faster than decks that are already out there (ANT belcher tps etc) and those already have backup plans.

so to answer the original question: can a deck be tuned to go off and win turn 2 consistently? right now i have to say no, but that's why its now on here. maybe i am missing something. maybe the logic is wrong. maybe it is doable just not in the manner i am trying to do so. i want to see what some of the best minds in vintage think. let's see if it is possible and then if it is make it practical. lets face it a slowed down Ferrari is still awfully damn fast. lol and i like Ferrari's!

thanks enjoy its a fun deck to mess with,

Kibbe

thanks for the insight guys. i agree with both of you. persicutor isn't great, but he is playable so i cut him to a single.

to get the critter vibe back but keep the cost down i went with icy's spread of hiddens and bobs plus the persicutor. this way i am not relying on abyssal as the only decent face beater but if i get him i can use him.

i had forgotten about cabal therapy's flashback cost. that does fit in here really nicely. in fact it has replaced the 3/3 spread i had with 4 therapy and 2 unmask(after doing this i am wondering if i can squeeze the second persicutor back in). therapy still works under chalice at one too. chalice counters stuff but it doesn't prevent it from being played. so i fb therapy have it countered but still get to sac the big fella. not bad

after some more testing i definitely needed another land so i added a swamp as well. seems to be helping quite a bit in the consistency department.

deed has been underwhelming vs shop so i cut one from there as well to add another nature's claim. now i am weaker vs aggro but most good aggro is low cc so if i can find it in time deed should wipe the board. plus i have room in the sb for the other 2 as well.

cabal i have always been leery of and i still am. with my low experience levels its a tough task for me to name cards. FOW would be the only one i think i would be able to connect on on a regular basis. until i get more experience i might stick with duress as its more idiot proof and can't be redirected like thoughsieze can. plus I'm only running 1 persicutor right now so the interaction between the two is less of an issue for now. i think the therapy is the more optimal card but not for me. at least not yet.

anyway here is the updated list

p.o.s v2.1

land 15
4 verdant catacombs
4 bayou
5 swamp
2 forest

other mana 9
1 black lotus
1 mox emerald
1 mox jet
3 dark ritual
3 elvish spirit guide

enchantments 8
2 pernicious deed
3 hidden guerrilla's
3 hidden gibbons

creatures 5
4 dark confidant
1 abyssal persicutor

other 23
4 cabal therapy (duress)
2 unmask (the turn one plays of this is sooo good!)
3 extripate (wasn't destroying/discarding enough to warrent 4)
1 sadistic sacrament
1 demonic tutor
1 vamp tutor
3 natures claim
3 diabolic edict
3 berserk
2 skeletal srying

sb (my first stab at it)
3 rootmaze
3 null rod
2 sadistic sacrament
4 leyline of void(or planar void, not sure which)
1 extripate
2 pernicious deed

combo: maze rod sacrament
dredge: leylines and extripate
fish(blue heavy counter): extripate maybe deed
fish(light counter blue): not sure?
fish(non blue): deeds
shop: mazes extripate and null rod
elves/goblins: deeds?

any more suggestions are welcome on the deck and definitely need help on the sb i think

OK so i liked icy's deck list but i wanted to bring in more of my draw stuff. i still think that cdawg was right in that aggro needs legit disruption and not just 1 for 1 answers. so what to do? well after leaving this deck alone for awhile and working on a few others i decided to come back to it, with some thoughts from some other decks. i really think that b/g is a ridiculously powerful combination of colors with some really cool decks you can possibly make work. knowing that and still wanting to keep this a some what aggro deck this is what i came up with. it's actually pretty interesting and I'm curious what people will think of it as its quite different in function from the original deck(though it can go fast fat beats early if things are allowed to play out that way). so ...

pile o somethin v2.0

land (14) (may still need #15 not sure what to cut though)
4 verdant catacombs
4 bayou
4 swamp
2 forest

other mana (9 - 23 total)
1 black lotus
1 mox jet
1 mox emerald
3 dark ritual
3 elvish spirit guide

enchantments (7)
3 pernicious deed
4 hidden guerrillas (artifact trigger 5/3 trample)

creatures (6)
4 dark confidant
2 abyssal persicutor

other(24 and this is where things start to change .... a lot)
4 extripate
3 thoughts
3 unmask
2 sadistic sacrament
1 demonic tutor
1 vamp tutor
2 natures claim
2 diabolic edict
3 berserk
3 skeletal scrying

OK so as you can tell it's mighty different, but i think its way better in almost every way. i still need to get a dude to my opponents face but it is a much more calculating style deck. there are many ways to play it. aggressive beats? sure it can do that. controll the board with board sweepers and spot removal? got that too. hand wrecking? yup this as well. deck neutering? yup in the deck as well. so theres not much it can't do. granted combo is still a crap shoot. i don't have prolonged game plan against them. get sacrament and hope i can push it through before they go off

a few individual card explanations

extripate as a 4 of: well it allows me to a) take out a good portion of their counter wall with a single card, b) toast their aggro attack if i can swap bob with something or c) just rip anything apart that relies on a build with a lot of 4 of's (can you say shops?) and d) makes turn one unmask into extripate just plain ridiculous e) if even one resolves i know my opponents deck in full. no guessing you will know what you are playing against. not a bad play to hit a restricted card if you are unsure what you are playing against. f) oh yeah: IT'S UNCOUNTERABLE!!

unmask(lol at all): well see above first of all. secondly it is thoughtsieze 4-6. and thirdly it allows me to not have run a third edict. all of those plus it when i can use exptripate after any of the discard it can make for a huge momentum swing in my favor.

hidden guerrilla's: this is a tough slot for me. it will be a hidden of some sort just haven't tested enough to know for sure yet. the guerrilla feels strong right now but i can see the heard being better against the field instead of just shops and combo (the 2 main reasons i choose it over the others).

no necro: well its not really a Sui deck anymore (though it can play that role) and it isn't a combo deck either. those decks do better with necro. i also don't run 4 rituals so turn 1 necro is even less likely in this build. plus i run the 3 scryings which help the draw aspect at the same cost life wise.

sadistic sacrament: do i really need to explain this? its my only hope against combo and it does a number on combo controll as well. combine this with extripate and well its gonna make things hard on you opponent to find answers and/or win cons. sounds like a plan to me.


So combine beats(or even the threat of beats ala hidden) with disruption of all kinds (deed, thoughsieze/unmask, sacrament and expricate) and a little card draw and i think this deck has some game. how much? sleeve it up and you tell me. i think quite a bit but I'm in no place to have that mean anything

icy- lol now thats agressive beats! nice! more of what i was trying to do in the first place ... lol and a waaay better version at that. i still like some of the choices i made in my orginal build(specificaly to increase card draw potential) but i really like the hyper aggressive feel of yours. might splice my card draw into your shell see what i find. just looking at your list i would think you might have been able to run the root mazes main but i guess if your gonna go aggressive then it might as well be aggressive right? who needs stratagy anyway. getting away from the beats aspect of the deck mine now feels controllish and honestly if you are not playing blue based control or MUD then it probably is not going to work out so well. just out of curiosity did you test the beats deck a lot or just do it on a whim? if you tested it i'd like to know what it did good and poorly against as it might be able to be tuned a bit further. i really like your list though and has made me think my b/g aggressive beats idea wasn't so out there after all. anyway thanks for the reply and the list!

CDawg- you are probably right about the disruption thing. i was toying with the idea of going to more of a mana denail package anyway but in a different way(lets be honest ld decks in vintage is like binging a knife to a gun fight .... lol well this deck might not be much better i guess but i can try). considering i didn't find it that difficult to play through spheres in just messing around i though why not put them in my deck! it should improve my worst match up (combo) and help slow things down in the others as well. plus ESG slips right past and my deck can operate on a pretty minimal mana/land base anyway(which is basic so it stands more of a chance against wastland.dec).

as to the dark depts thing. well yeah ... um it might just be flat out better. lol but i'd like to see what this deck can do if tuned a bit. maybe make it a little better while not totally changing the concept of the deck.

so here's a modified list with a couple big changes

b/g pile o somethin

land (15)
1 forest
6 swamp
4 verdant catacombs
4 bayou

other mana (12)
1 black lotus
1 mox jet
1 mox emerald
1 lotus petal
4 dark ritual
4 elvish spirit guide

creatures (9)
4 dark confident
3 nercogen scudder
2 abysssal percecutor

other (21)
4 duress
2 unmask
3 pernicious deed
2 beserk
2 diabolic edict
1 nature's claim
2 skeletal scrying
1 demonic tutor
2 leyline of the void
4 sphere of resistance
1 necropotence
1 vamp tutor


ok so thats a little more disruptive i'd say. the leyline are mainly for dredge but it should help against combo as well (of yagwin or recuresion varity) and at least give them pause if not shut of the t1 win completely. plus i can actaually hard cast it if i need to. necro was a terrible oversight on my part as it was the base for sui and this is a sui-ish deck. so yeah it belongs. plus with 4 duress and 2 unmask with a good sized necro i should be able to suffecintly wreck there hand beofre i try to wreck their face.

as far as innocent blood goes, well, not so much for me. between deed and edict i think i'm ok there as i have gone to only 2 percicutors. besides with edict i can edict then swing for damage  and thats the only way i win is getting to my oppenents face. so i need my dudes and need to save them not toss them away. as far as synergies go i think a 12/6 flying trampler that gets rid of his can't win drawback is enough of a synergy to keep berserk around. plus i can in a pinch use it on my opp's dude (4 damage is not a lot to take if it gets rid of a opposing bob).

the deck is now 61 cards. knew i needed vampy but wasn't sure what to cut it so i just stuck it in. lol we shall see how it goes

this is not a deck that wants to control everyhting at all times. this deck is about causing enough mayhem/distortion to get through enough damage to seal a win. thats it. anything more is gravy but not really intentional. kind of fish like but black and green with no counters lol

i'm trying something very similar to this list but kind of fundmentaly different. in my book if you can go infinite why not just win with something that can't be countered or redirected at all? or taken out of your hand? like ... a land maybe? thats right killing with a land with life loss! lol its funny but it works

here's my list(dropped black but might need it for the tutors and yag will but this is my unblack list right now. seems to goldfish by turn 4 pretty consistanly)

blue
1 a recall
2 frantic search
4 deep analsys
1 tinker
1 timewalk
2 chain vapor
1 gifts ungiven
3 force of will
1 brainstorm

artifact
4 crucible of world
2 zuron orb

green
3 crop rotation
1 living wish
1 fastbond
1 regrowth

white
3 enlightened tutor
1 balance

mana
3 elvish spirit guide
2 mox diamond
1 mana vault
1 sol ring
3 solo mox
1 lotus

4 city of brass
3 c colosium
3 u/w fetch
2 tropical island
2 island
1 tundra
1 tolarian
1 piranaha swamp (lol aww yeeeaaahhh)

mine goes for the infinte loop only. playing p.swamp sac to orb replay repeat till dead. allow for infinte pretty much everything. you could move swamp to the sb if you like though about doing it myself though it does elminate the turn 1 kill which is possible with my deck!!

main idea is to just dig like crazy. the colosiums are huge in the deck as with nothing but cruicble on the board it allows you to see 4 cards every turn(if you have threshold of course). give that to any combo deck and they will get thier peices eventually and quicker rather than later

turn 1 kill hand
lotus
crucible
e.s.g.
fast bond
z.orb
p.swamp

yup thats right you die to a land! and one that is flat out awful at that! lol, round 2?

think black is good but white need to be in the deck for e.tutor. it gets all the combo peices except the land and you can dig for once you go inifite anyway

not sure this can be made viable but it is fun.

as another point if u want u can deck them with colisium(you can target them if you want!). risky as it lets the pck the perfect had from thier deck but they have to be able to kill at instant speed to not get decked (plus it gets around g.blessing as it will be going to yard from hand not libabry)
 

ok a little back story first. i played magic pretty regularly a long time ago, but for the last 8 years or so i haven't played or followed it with any regularity. i haven't had any contact or interest in the game at all for a few years straight. last time i thought about the game Long was just ariving and freaking WotC out(always a sign of a good deck!). anyway for some reason the magic bug has crept up on me again and here i am.

so after some research and searching through reports and posts on individual cards this is what i came up with a my first deck that works pretty well. it runs pretty smoothly and is a blast to play. it is highly aggressive and a bit risky as you can quite literally make it impossible for yourself to win. so here's the deck and then i have a few thoughts and/or questions

b/g suicide beats

land (14)
1 forest
5 swamp
4 verdant catacombs
4 bayou

other mana (11)
1 black lotus
1 mox jet
1 mox emerald
4 dark ritual
4 elvish spirit guide

creatures (14)
4 dark confident
4 dusk urchins
3 abysssal percecutor
3 fallow wurm

other (21)
4 duress
2 unmask
3 pernicious deed
3 beserk
3 diabolic edict
2 nature's claim
3 skeletal scrying
1 demonic tutor


basic idea of the deck is get out a body, beat face and put out more if needed. the persecutors are ridiculous in the deck as i have a bunch of ways to get around the the can't win problem(deed, beserk (which is awsome in the deck btw), and edict). the deck has a ton of draw in it so it rarely runs out of steam which i was really aware of as i started to build it.

the urchins are quite good vs most decks but im not sure if they would be all that good against controll as they will eventually off themselves and then i might not be able to force a threat through after that. maybe they come out vs controll decks not sure yet.

the fallow wurms need to go away, i think "necrogen scudder" would be a good option. even when i drop the wurms i don't think 14 lands is quite enough. probably need 1 more at least maybe 2 but i'm not sure what to cut to get them.

i do enjoy this deck a bunch. it's fun it's agressive and it adapts well to most situations. combo is a problem. i need god draws to race them and thats not exactly the best stratagy to take. most others i can seem to survive long enough to get the job done. as you can tell with my opening remarks i don't have a ton of testing but i feel like the dack has some real potential. with a good player at the helm this deck should be able to  handel almost anything.

major questions:

sideboard! not sure how much of it to dedicate to combo as that i feel is my weakest match. and i don't have enough experince playing current vintage to know what to watch out for against any decks post board anyway

no vamp t! again i'm mainly goldfishing here. in matches i can see a vamp replacing 1 scying pretty easily if it actually makes sense. vamp doesn't go into my hand and that isn't the case with the rest of the draw/tutors in the deck

if i wanted to maindeck a leyline of the void (which the deck should be able to support 2 of i think) or 2 what should come out?

anyway thats the deck and my thoughts. hope you guys can help me tune this even better than it is right now!!

*sigh, slumps shoulders* no, your not missing anything .... son of a ..... damn it!

ok so maybe this doesn't work at all. i though it gave both. damn it, this maybe be pointless then. guess this is what you get for thinking outside the box eh?

is there a flashbackable version of fling(or something like it)? otherwise this needs a complete overhaul

I've seen null rods in other builds of oath, would they work in mine? i feel my deck is more combo(kind of but not really, so...) and null rod seems to be a solution to combo not a part of it but again I'm still rusty/green so i could be missing something here. I'll have to 2 fist some matches against some other decks to see how this puppy really works

so far chalice seems to be pretty good. my mana requirements are really low so chalicing for 0 early will likely hurt them more than me. i can win with only 3 mana, and 2(to cast oath) if i have the charge in my hand, so slowing them down is good cause it really doesn't hurt me that badly. chalicing for 1 will hurt most decks a ton and keeps chain vapor(popular bounce from combo and others) from seeing play against me. my only concern is kind of a question actually. does chalice for 1 shut down my reckless charge from the yard(and same for ancient grudge as well)? the casting cost is still one on top of the card but its three if flashed back? also how does chalice interact with all the split second cards? do they still go thorough or are they countered? sorry more of a rules post but it is kind of relevant to my deck as I'm a bit strapped for counters/stoppers

cutting crop and orchard count are both solved with the 2ND wish. plus it gives me another out if avatar goes bye. crop is faster and can be used proactively to respond to strip effects and for that reason i think that it i may still keep it in the board. for the most part though it's a tutor and the wish is still that. plus if i put the 4Th orchard the wishes make almost no sense(no orchard in the board anymore). i like the fact that the way i have it set up i can have access to the 4Th orchard with the wishes effectively upping my orchard count to 5 maindeck. plus i can use the wish to get a beater if I'm getting pummeled with no oath in sight or get a plan b if the avatar gets toasted.

and yes this is a pet deck to be sure and that's why i posted here instead of the open forum.

i put it out here to see if it can be made better(maybe even good?) to see if there is anything more to it than just a novelty act. i haven't explored the sideboard yet but i could always make a transformational Sb and make it closer to a "normal" deck for game 2 and 3. it should some out of left field game 1 though. if you don't have an answer in hand and i oath you lose. that's got to count for something.

as far as phage goes i don't like the fact that i can't oath till i have a stifle in hand. makes it even harder to get things going and with the nature of oath it can struggle to get going anyway. like i said i think this deck could be good but i think that phage makes things harder(all be it more deffinite if it does manage to go off) not easier

thats why i couldn't find it i was looking in red. still if it only gives trample and not haste i don't see it being good enough to top charge(see below) plus loading up the deck with stuff like that would make it inconsistant and only if i went off and if i got the cards i wanted into the yard. i usually go for 10 plus cards but sometimes it's not very many and well if i don't hit what i need... see below, again


some other thoughts:

i need to get the 3rd charge in so for the time being i'm gonna bump the deck to 61 just to get it in there. if i don't hit the charge then the deck isn't really much faster than a regular oath deck. if that happens then the other oath decks are just flat out better everywhere else so why run mine? so 3's the charm for the charge

do i have enough protection/removal? it feels like if someone powers something out i might have a difficult finding an anwser soon enough or at all. i feel like i run about the same amount of removal as other vintage decks but it just doesn't feel like enough. 

i think I'm gonna drop crop rotation for another living wish. it keeps the orchard access basically the same and gives me another out if avatar leaves the game.

is there a decent sized  creature that is pro white that isn't black? it will be in the Sb to start (wishable though). i think that keeping the deck to a single creature is the only way to go for now. if I'm going to get away from the home run style I'll probably go to a more traditional set up with 2-3 dudes and a blessing and go the more recurring theme

is the deck base pretty good or am i just missing something obvious(is mana leak still relevant or is it just bad?)? again I've been out for awhile so i tried to piece this together from the lists i was seeing.

also i can't find the fangs card you mentioned. the breath doesn't do it for me. without trample i can't get by my own tokens so the breath is out. and if fang's doesn't give haste then it too is out. again the idea is to win the turn oath activates so.

the Russian deck sounds cool but i can;t find a list yet

OK just to state again i am just getting back into magic, so this deck is very rough with just goldfishing to test it out. that being said it has some real potentail in it i think. one of my biggest probelms with oath decks is that with as powerful as oath is for the most part your opponent still  gets a clock (all be it a short one) to try to figure out a way out or a win. i always wanted to try to win after the first oath activation. basically if my oath activates i want to win on the spot. so how? my choice is certainly different than most oath decks but mine can win somewhat easily on turn 2(turn 1 with the perfect hand) which is something almost no other oath decks can say. so here goes

reckless oath

6 moxen, lotus
2 lotus petal, sol ring
3 forbidden orchard (see reasoning below)
3 city of brass (maybe something else?)
3 tropical islands
2 volcanic is
2 islands
2 fetch

3 fire/ice

4 force of will
2 chalice of the void
2 mana leak
1 misdirection

1 ancient grudge
1 naturalize
1 wipe away

2 scroll rack
4 impulse
3 thirst for knowledge
1 ancestral recall
1 brain storm
1 crop rotation
1 living wish

1 time walk

4 oath of druids
1 Serra avatar
2 reckless charge

sb
1 forbidden orchard
1 strip mine
1-2 decent win condition creatures

the main idea is to oath, hit avatar, and in the process dump a reckless charge in the yard cast the charge on the avatar(now hasted, trampling and buffed slightly) and swing for the win. not bad eh? yes there is no blessing and no reclimation so it is a bit of balls to the balls but hey why not? if i'm gonna win its worth the risk i think. reckless actually works really well cause it will trample right over any orchard tokens that might want to get in the way. originally i ran 3 but as the deck changed i went to only 2. if i can find room i will put the 3rd one back in but the is not much room for stuff as of right now, but its pretty effective right now with only one creature to hit. with the addition of fire and ice i don't have to swing for lethal. as long as i can get them close i can just finish the job with burn

OK so why only 3 orchards? well i run crop rotation and living wish both of which can get an orchard which gives me 5 ways to get one. also orchard without an oath is well not good it seems. yes it's important but i think the 3 plus 2 setup works well. the wish also backs up as win. I'm kinda up the creak if the avatar gets busted out a the game. if its killed i can just oath it back up as it shuffles back in anyway

fire/ice works really well here. if i don't manage to hit a charge i can burn the little orchard tokens out of my way as i swing. the ice woks to either slow the other players tempo plus it cantrips anyway(can the ice part shut off things like tangle wire/spheres or does that not work? if it does it's that much better still).

that's the basics but i can go into more detail if you have any questions/suggestions. tweeking i am cetianlly open to as i believe this deck is still quite rough. i know it is diffenent tahn most oath decks but i wanted it that way. if there is stuff that they do that you all think is just too good to no include im all for it. at the very least i'll consider it

as for additions I'd like to make: burning wish, and maybe recoup

the red wish could lead to some crazy plays out of the Sb(yag will for starters)

so, what ya think?

ok i'll say this up front, i'm just starting to get back into magic. really not even playing yet, but kind of like sandwich punch once you're in, you're in for life i guess. so enough of that and onto the question: what are oaths traditionally bad match ups? oath has always been a favorite deck of mine with near limitless ways to build around it. getting back into things i need to know what either decks or even single cards that pop up often enough to watch out for. thanks in advance,

kibbs

as a side note what kind of damages(money) would i be looking at needing to invest if i wanted to play a powered(including big blue) vintage deck from scratch? like 2,000 or more?

testing results with draw 7's included

someone who really plays combo well may have been able to do better with the hands i had. i'm still learning at this point.

if the games went longer than turn 4, i just stopped. i figured this deck doesn't have the luxury of letting the oppenent "build" for 4 turns and still come back. i only continued if i was basicly setting up for the next turn and not just top decking.

results
game1: stopped after 4
g2: win turn 1
g3: turn 2
g4: turn 3
g5: turn 3
g6: loss (channel for 10, and no way to use it = death by mana burn) turn 3 i think
g7: stopped after 4
g8: turn 4
g9: mull to 6, win turn 3
g10: turn 2
g11: turn 1
g12: turn 2

this means 3 auto losses right off the bat. but i did get 5 off before turn 3. so far average is closer to turn 3 than turn 2 and thats not fast enough to be a good combo.

this is faster than the 4 meditate version i had, but not as much faster as i thought it would be. at least isn't an auto losses if i fizzle out. handing my oppenent a free turn or 3 is not going to win me games. now i can cast a draw 7 and just set up the following turn if i need too. thats a positive i like a lot over the 4 meds version.

a few notes i had while testing

3 pacts is too many, 1 needs to go. they are nice but i drew them more than was needed. i know i can replace 1 of them with something better.

felt like i drew mana too often off the draw 7's. drawing ass hands with no buisness spells sucks. need to thin the deck somehow. more draw? less land/grants?

i only had 1 time i could have cast the mind's desire, and at that point i was about to win anyway. long had the LED's to power the desire, i'm not so lucky, so i think i will cut it entirely

going to 2 cabal rituals is working out fine. i really don't need the 4. they are kind of situational anyway. i also found about half the time i would get the 5, and not just the 3. i always am able to get 5 if using will so they gaive boost

using mox diamond is working out good so far. if i drop the land/grant counts i might drop this as well, but for now it working well.

chain of vapor is huge in this deck. i think i might add 1 more to the deck. i usually have at least 2, or 3 lands in play and mox's and other artifact mana that i can bounce back to my hand upping storm, and mana counts. if these work like this all the time increasing them might make me combo out more often and earlier. also without the frantic search im not going to be able to untap the lands anyway so why not put them to work off the chain vapor.

also the frantic search is not missed at all. i don't have the helms in anymore and that was only way it really added anything. plus with the vapor i am getting double use out of lands anyway, so i really don't think it would help that much anyway

i found that a few times i wished but was color limited (mainly no blue for the twister). on a whim i tried using infernal contract in the SB and that actually help me keep going once or twice, and let me win games i would have stalled out on otherwise. losing 3/4 of your life (1/2 then 1/2 again) is a lot to take for a single card though

partly on the infernal contract thing, and partly on the fact that i found d. wish a dead card and the fact it cost me half my life. ive been thinking that i should cut 1 of the d. wishes entirely or replace one of them with a burning wish, but the red cost could get tough.

the 2 meditates have been ok, but not great. im not sure what i would replace them with though. 4 cards for 3 mana is really good, espcially in combo and i can't think of a replace ment for the loss in draw (hell im trying too add more as it is).

anyway these are my notes. any suggestions would be helpful

ok here's a new list using draw 7's, changes in bold

mana (25)
3 tropical islands
3 bayau
1 tolarian
1 black lotus
5 mox's
1 chrome mox
1 mox diamond
1 lotus petal
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
4 dark ritual
2 cabal ritual
1 channel

mana getters n fixers (9)
4 chromatic sphere
4 land grant
1 crop rotation

tutor (6)
1 demonic tutor
1 vampric tutor
1 mystical tutor
3 tainted pact

draw (10)
1 ancestal recall
1 windfall
1 wheel of fortune
1 memory jar
4 brainstorm
2 meditates (-2)

utility (5)
1 yag will
1 regrowth
1 tinker
2 death wish

disruption (4)
3 duress
1 chain of vapor

win (1)
tendrils

SB
1 time twister
1 tendrils
1 mind's desire

this looks really promising, at least to me. im keeping twister in the board for now. i still think that it makes it harder to abuse yag will if i use it main. the other draw 7's let me keep my yard, and that works well with will, regrowth, and powers the cabal ritual as well. i figured with extra lands and the land grants that i could get away with the mox diamond, and it gives me another way to cast the wheel. the tinker can either get me the jar, or can fetch me up the lotus, as a sort of quasi mana fixer.

will test see what happens

well after i realized that i had left a card out i changed a few things to accomidate it.

-2 A. Knowledges

+1 mana crypt
+1 merchant scroll

well, i tried this configuration and well, the deck didn't perform at all like i thought it would. i stalled out way too often, the mana base didn't seem right or stable, and there were a ton of cards that weren't pulling there weight. i still thought i had the base for something good so i did a little more tinkering, and came up with this next progression. i changed quite a bit so i'll just list the deck instead of the changes.

klong v 2

mana (24)
3 tropical islands
3 bayau
1 tolarian
4 dark ritual
2 cabal ritual
1 channel
1 black lotus
5 mox's
1 chrome mox
1 lotus petal
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault

mana fixers n getters (9)
4 land grant
4 chromatic sphere
1 crop rotation

draw (11)
1 ancestral recall
2 impulse
4 brainstorm
4 meditate

tutor (7)
1 demonic tutor
1 vamp tutor
1 mystical tutor
1 mercant scroll
3 tainted pact

utility (5)
1 yag will
1 frantic search
1 regrowth
2 death wish

disrupt (5)
3 duress
2 unmask

win (1)
1 tendrils

SB

1 twister
1 tendrils

this is the version i just tested. i did much better than the previous version. i only had the chance to goldfish a few hands, but the changes helped a lot. the mana base seems to have stablized, and the pacts give me a non blue draw/tutor spell, which helps tremendously. channel and regrowth have both been very good additions. regrowth helps me get through when im running out of steam, and makes me less reliant on wishing for the win. with channel i have won every game i have cast it in. the huge boost in mana feels almost longish in sheer power. it really helps out the deck

this being said, it still lacks the explosiveness i was hoping for. i go off on turn 3 almost like clock work, but i really would like to speed it up a bit if i can. i am going to see if my testing is off, too see if its faster than i think, but i think the 7's are going to go in. maybe not all of them, but at least 2 or 3. you guys made some good points, and there just plain fast. plus after reading your views i think that i was foolish to begin with about leaving them out. some of the meditates might stay, but probably not 4 of them.

mind's desire: it was just too costly. getting the to cast it was tough, and the 2 blue was a bitch too. haven't tried it board or main in the new one, but im guessing it would fit well in the board. i still think its too costly for the main, and i don't need it to win anyway so i think that warrants the cut from the main.

eggs: the eggs were horrible, a waste of slots. i am shamed to have even posted a list with them.

helms: see eggs. and i thought the 7's would help my opponent? they were bad

chants: getting white was too much of a pain. just not worth the hassel

LED: i'm not wishing for the win, and i don't have the 7's to sack before. plus there's only one of them. i can't count on getting the mana from them and i don't see it much anyway, so i tossed it as well

i don't think i want to mess with the mana base because it has been really solid so far. the land grants have been very cool. i may consider droppingto 3, or dropping 1 land (which?)but i will need to test this first. they help the mana base, storm count, and you can do some neat tricks with brainstorm. they make it easier to set up the win by making sure you can drop a land to get that 1 extra mana to get you going.

i haven't been impressed with mercahnt scroll in here, and the frantic search isn't pulling its weight either. im at 62(didn't realize it till i totaled everything up) right now and i think that these are the 2 that are going to go.  

i'm guessing i am going to need to MD removal of some kind, even if it is just a chain vapor. would chain work, or would something else be better?

well this deck is getting better, but it still needs a lot of work. thank you for all the suggestions. i'm going to try the deck out a bit more before i start tossing in the 7's, but if my result don't get better the 7's will be going in.

anything i'm forgetting? any suggestions? did i improve from the first version?

all thoughts welcome