Just wondering if anyone knows what's happening so far.

He forgot to mention Nullstone "BanHammer," Gargoyle.

People stopped playing old man, when fish decks started sideboarding kira. Which in turn led to pyroclasm on the part of slaver. It's a revolving metagame thing.

Spellbombs are pretty sweet actually. The only drawback to the spellbombs at all really, is that they get owned by null rod.

In the event that you are playing against some form of budget aggro-control packing null rods, you're up a creek. Then there's Uba Stax, but luckily in that case your probably boarding in rack and ruin to kill their artifacts, rather than spellbombs to kill their shamen and welders.

I really think darkblast could fill the weenie removal niche better than any other card right now. For a deck built to abuse welders and yawgmoth's will, the dredge recursion could be better than the actual removal spell. But it does cost you actual card draw in order to recur it, where as spellbomb can actually generate card draw.

There are really quite a few good removal spells in this 1-2 casting cost range, and each has some good things going for them, and some bad. In different metagames some are better then others. If pyrite spellbomb is working for you, keep using it.

I hate to say this blizzardwolf, because you clearly put quite a bit of thought and effort into your previous post, but what were you smoking when you made that list of counters?

Arcane denial is one of the most terrible cards ever printed. For the bargain basement price of two mana you give your opponent more threats than the one they initially wanted to cast! What happens when you counter their ancestral, and draw an island, then they draw yawgmoth's will and black lotus? Obviously this is an extreme example, but this card has the ability to lose games all by itself.

Mana Drain is the most powerful counter ever printed, and it's not even on your list. Even countering a measly two casting cost threat, enables you to bust out a minimum four casting cost response during your next main faze. Something crappy like fact or fiction. Any player who is dying from mana burn from their drains is not playing correctly. They fuel the card drawing engine, win conditions, and even in your day they would dump excess mana into morphling or gorilla shaman if needed. Price considerations, if anything, should be a confirmation of power level. Mana drains a Legends uncommon mind you, now run for over one hundred bucks a piece, but there are plenty of rares out of that set that won't fetch more than ten bucks.

Mana Leak belongs in the top five. It has the efficient casting cost of arcane denial but it has no drawback. Sure people can play around it, by paying three more mana, but vintage decks are so mana efficient, it is highly unlikely.

Rewind was the worst of the free spells to come out of Urza's block. At least the others were proactive, and could be abused with things like academy, but not this. Then it costs four mana, which is terribly expensive for an effect that should never run you more than two mana in vintage. On top of that, the effect worthless in a counter war. Just think about it. If two players each have four islands untapped, when they decide to battle it out over a tinker on the stack, who will win? The one packing mana leak, and counterspell, or the one packing rewind and counterspell? Think about it.

Force spike and counterspell are alright, but certainly not the best. Force spike is too easily circumvented, and counter spell suffers from the malady of not being mana drain, but sharing an identical cost. It's kind of like comparing lightning bolt to shock in that regard.

I think a far more rational list would go something like this

1. Mana Drain (whole decks are built around this bad Larry)

2. Force of Will (the only free hard counter ever printed)

3. Mana Leak (a turn one counter with a land and a mox)

4. Red Elemental Blast (not even blue...heh)

5. Misdirection (the other free counter, but far more limited)

You seem like a nice guy, but posting stuff like this is certainly not going to help stimulate any discussion.

I took a three-four year break from magic myself, and I missed the sixth edition rules changes, and errata the first time around. That was a doozy to overcome, and I felt pretty ignorant when I came back to a completely unfamiliar "stack." You are fortunate to have never missed such dramatic changes in the way the game itself is played.

Your other points have some merit to them, but in your combo vs control example, the combo player did nothing, because he knew the control player had a counter in his had, correct? That is one of the most terrible strategies ever. The longer you wait the more counters, you will have to fight through. You played during Urza's block, so you are familiar with Academy, and Trix. No combo player will ever just sit there, unless that is the only option they have left, as in they have an empty hand. A successful combo player will try to bait the control player into countering the wrong threat, or force them to spend their entire hand trying to stop them. Combo decks typically pack numerous bombs like draw sevens, tinker, will, necro, bargain, tutors, etc. They have a better chance trying to top deck the win vs. a spent control deck, than sitting on their ass waiting for an opening, while the control player plays the game unimpeded.

Sorry to be such a sour puss.

-Nate-

Roland Chang doesn't run them, and I understand why. Every deck worth it's salt runs multiple answers to chalice in the MD these days, from gorilla shaman, to goblin welder, to echoing truth, and even rebuild.

Chalice has seen some pretty extensive play recently both in stax and fish decks, and nobody wants to blindly run into them. I know that I've personally had quite a bit of trouble getting them to stick. Chalice for zero is almost worthless when it is followed by a gorilla shaman from the other side of the table, and the shaman incidentally renders all further chalices worthless too, unless you kill it a.s.a.p. Of course if you waste time killing the shaman, then you often miss the opportunity to further lock someone out of the game.

Suppression field does help to alleviate this problem, but at most you are running four of them, and the chances of resolving both a chalice for zero, and the field on turn one is not good enough for me to rely upon that condition. They are both turn one drops for you, but hoping for both in the opening hand is a little unrealistic. You certainly cannot expect it.

Chalice is quite powerful when cast with one counter, but this option is really terrible when your whole engine is based around one casting cost tutors. You will cut off, brainstorm, welders, shaman, and goblin vandal (don't laugh, he's a beating) but you lose ancestral, vampiric, crop rotation, imperial seal, fastbond, enlightened tutor, and your own shaman if you chose to run one.

I think Lunar may be correct. Null rod may be a stronger card in this spot. Coupled with suppression field it is devastating. The difficulty there in, is that 5C stax relies quite heavily upon it's artifact acceleration, and shutting down a third of your own mana base is often difficult to overcome. 

Vroman, think of Titania's Song like you'd think of Sundering Titan. It is a bomb for the late game that wins when it resolves, or shortly there after. When you cast it, you destroy all moxen and chalices in play, and all your lock components instantly become win conditions. It is certainly a powerful option for sealing the deal. And as far as casting cost go, shops provide two more mana than your 5C lands, and song costs four mana. In my eyes that translates to a four casting cost enchantment being about the eequivalentof a six casting cost artifact, in terms of castability. This is a win condition not a turn one drop.

Also enlightened tutor does not fetch strip mine or academy, but neither does fastbond or yawgmoth's will. It only gets lock components, answers, and win conditions. It's really pretty good. You don't have to cut any of your other tutors to squeeze this one in too. I know that other tutors may be better, but it is strong enough to consider.


I couldn't agree more about will. It seems like nothing better than three casting cost regrowth in many circumstances. The whole deck is built to limit the number of spells cast in a turn, and make will less powerful or game breaking when cast. Running it yourself seems counter intuitive; however there are times when you've had numerous moxen killed, a couple of tutors countered, and a couple big artifacts rack and ruined, and resolving will under those circumstances can really put you back in the game. I've gone back and forth about will in stax decks, but the times I wish it were something else, generally outweigh the number of times I wish I could top deck it, when I'm losing. Besides, balance is to this deck, what will is to gifts or control slaver; that is your game winning bomb.

I couldn't resist any longer. There are some great ideas in here, but some very simple and overlooked things too.

1) Enlightened Tutor: um, it gets almost everything in the deck.

2) Titania's Song: Armageddon all moxes in play and swing for the win. Of course this makes chalice less compelling, but um who cares. Chalice is as fragile as it gets these days.

You also need an inexpensive costed creature removal effect, or hoser. Suppression field may stop activated abilities, but not attack phases. Getting smacked around by FCG is not something I wanted to experience.

I've been playing with this.

MANA [ten 5C lands because of the increased need]
4 Shops
4 CoB
3 Gemstones
3 Ice Bridges
3 Wastes
1 Strip
1 Academy
1 Lotus
1 Crypt
1 Vault
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring

Colored Spells [locks, tutors, draw, anti creature tech, and win condition]
3 Titania's Song
3 Suppression Field
3 Meditate [this is still good with tangle wire and smokies]
3 Propaganda [anti aggro]
1 Ancestral
1 E-Tutor
1 D-Tutor
1 V-Tutor
1 I-Seal
1 Balance

Artifact locks [only 14 but it does the job with song]
4 Smokestack
3 Tangle Wire
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Sphere
1 Trinisphere

I decided I didn't need want any activated abilities in the deck at all, besides a few wastelands, so that I could really maximize the fields to their fullest. I was looking at potential win conditions when I remembered titania's song, and thought it might make a nice karn replacement. Well actually it is often better than karn, if you play it quickly, it makes tinker all but impossible to resolve too!

I guess if we just keep pooling ideas, the best will rise to the top.

Oddly enough being off center, and clearly having the white spots in corners between the printed picture and the black boarder, makes me think this is perfectly real. the differences in color can easily be explained by the fact that this is a photo, and depending upon the lighting conditions, it could appear either lighter or darker.

When people makes fakes, they make them good fakes (not off centered) so that they can get as much money for them as possible. I just sold an authentic beta timetwister on ebay, and when the buyer received it he emailed me telling me it was fake. I kindly asked him to take it to a dealer, to have it authenticated. It seems like many people think they know how to spot fakes, pretty well, but in actuality, they are being paranoid.

Sellers get accused of both selling and posting fakes on ebay about one to three times for every auction, when it comes to a power card. He is probably flaming you because he knows it's real, and it pisses him off that his integrity is being questioned. Don't take it personally, and if you still think it is fake, just don't bid on it.

There was a time when I wouldn't have even considered running a workshop deck without four Chalice MD, but I have been particularly under-enthusiastic about them in the current meta. It seems like every deck packs multiple answes to chalice at multiple casting costs. If a gorilla shaman slips through your defenses, it completely nullifies the benefits of playing with them at all. I have now reconsidered my stance upon CotV, and think that if they do not fit MD, why would you even want them in the SB?

Lol! This often the single most important factor in the configuration of the decks I play as well. If it ain't pimp, why play it.

I'm so tired of hearing that Yawgmoth's will is the win condition in every deck. Many decks can and do win without ever casting it. The more a deck is built to rely on Yawg-Win for victory, the more vulnerable to workshop prison, or pro-active disruption in general, the deck becomes. Yawgmoth's Will is a bomb for certain, and resolving it often wins games, but stating that it is the win condition in deck X, makes it seem as though the only way to win games in this format is with will. This assertion is blatantly false.

I do agree that tog may have an engine that sets up and protects Yawg-win better than any other deck, but if you are relying on will to win for you, why play anything other than gifts or death long? These decks are built to win upon resolution of will more than any thing else, and yet neither is dominant.

The big splashy win is not the only path to victory; this is why decks like stax and control slaver win more games than other decks. They can go broken at times, but their game plan is not predicated upon the resolution of one spell. An equal balance of broken-ness and consistency are the most successful methods in vintage. Are they not?

Tinker and Yawgmoth's Will are not the only spells that matter, and if they are the only spells that matter to you, than you are being narrow-minded. Some decks, like Oath for example do not even benefit from these spells at all; I would not consider Oath unplayable. Sure it isn't as well equipped to do broken things as gifts, but it still can win games.

Tog is underplayed because of three factors.

A) Without a four color mana base, a casualty of sundering titan and crucible of worlds, it has been forced into a sub-optimal mana configuration in order to maintain stability, which took away some of it's best weapons. Artifact mutation for example

B) A resolved mindslaver makes winning next to impossible. Though Tog can stop mindslaver from resolving, In order to beat control slaver it has to stop mindslaver, tinker, will, goblin welder, and platinum angel, which is a tall order.

C) Other decks abuse the big two (tinker and Yawgmoth's will) better than Tog does. If one can play a deck with a gameplan equally as powerful as Tog, but better able to do broken things, why should you play Tog?

The only thing I can see going for Tog, over Tinker, is the abundance of goblin welders in the format. Tinker for colossus on turn one, is far less scary for a deck that plays a turn one welder, than say tinker for Sundering Titan, or Triskelion.

When Gifts is forced to win with tendrils of agony, than it really has no edge over Tog. The clocks are similar, the disruption is about equal, and the draw engine is slightly in Tog's favor.

I knew you liked this deck Steve. You even mentioned that it might become a force in the meta after trinisphere got restricted. I dunno though. It's just so vulnerable to well...everything. If you came up with a version running 4 thoughtcast, 4 brainstorm, and 4 force of will then I would have been impressed.

I toyed around with this concept when it was first posted, and found that I couldn't fit everything I wanted into a sixty card frame. Cloud seems like a nifty addition, but no better than myr moonvessel was. This seems like it could be little more than a pet deck that will potentially cause you a brain aneurysm trying to play it correctly. Good luck.

What people frequently fail to comprehend is that although entomb makes budget dragon playable, it makes powered dragon degenerate. Dragon is the deck that got it restricted in the first place, and it is still good without it.

Back when entomb was unrestricted, dragon players would force intentional draws all day until they drew a broken hand that won within the first couple of turns. I for one do not wish to revisit those days. Of course you could fight back by running your own entombs and coffin purge, but c'mon...

Entomb is also a one casting cost instant speed bomb in decks with welders and crucibles. Turn two strip mine/crucible locks, and welded titans would be everywhere if it was unrestricted.

Entomb needs to stay on the list.

Hey, as long as the DCI keeps up like they have with vintage, I'm quite happy. Little by little they can remove the weaker cards from the list; we're not going to play with them anyway, so there is no rush. Fact or fiction however, is not one of those "weaker," cards that will be coming off any time soon. Voltaic key will probably be next.

I don't see gifts getting nixed any time soon either. Yes it is broken, and fetches some of the most degenerate cards in the format, but it requires decks to be built around it, unlike fact or fiction, which is just universally good in any blue based control deck. Not every broken card in vintage needs restriction; the format just needs a healthy balance of broken-ness, which is what we currently have.

It seems then that the general consensus is that vintage staples will not be reprinted, nor will any circumstances short of financial collapse change wizard's reprint policies. Fine by me for now...

Premium foils would be nice, and would increase the number of power cards in rotation, but not enough to slow the increasing price barriers that are making vintage inaccessible to new players.

So it seems we have then reached our peak. This is the biggest vintage will ever be, and the future of our format is completely up in the air. Does this bother anyone as much as it bothers me?

This article was published before berserk, recall, and hurkyl's recall came off the list, and while gush was still unrestricted. I think this was around the time that leigons was in print, but I may be off ever so slightly.

The DCI does a pretty darned good job. Keep in mind however that they did not predict the metagame post trinisphere. We feared combo as players, and built decks to combat the threat of combo specifically.

That said there are still plenty of cards that could come off the restircted list, but to what end? I don't think anyone has been brainstorming a savage voltaic key deck, nor will they. Who really cares if unplayable cards are on the restricted list from anything other than an esthetic point of view.

It would be kinda cool if the restricted list actually represented the most powerful cards in the current format, but there is no pressing need to tamper with it.

The same goes for future restrictions in my opinion. Only when a card has proven itself degenerate and format distorting, should it be considered for restriction. Mana drain and workshop are not format distorting, they are format defining. There is a pivitol difference in those two terms.

I am not advocating for or against reprints one way or another. I am fully powered and have all the vintage staples, so I do not need them per se. What I want to know is what would have to happen in order for it to take place. I don't want to hear about Wizards facing financial collapse and reprinting power as a "last gasp," to stay alive. I want to know what events, assuming WOTC is doing very well financially, could lead up to this actually happening, and what kind of impact it would have.

Maybe this is a rehashed subject of sorts, but it related to the proxy debate, which is also rehashed and going quite strong a post down from here. I hate to think Vintage is always going to require more nad more proxies, and unsanctioned support from Wizards to survive. I hate to think that the price barrier for those actually interested in the format will continue to rise. And I especially dislike the idea that the growth and health of or format is tied to basic plains and sharpies.

P.S. Thanks for the links good doctor, but those threads, which I read the first time around, are over year old; is it too early for my renewed interest on the subject? I did not believe I was posting redundant forum spam, if that is what you are trying to insinuate. Sorry.

Realistically speaking, what would have to happen for WOTC to reprint type one staples. Off hand I can think of a few barriers.

First there is the impossibility of releasing powerful vintage defining cards into the other formats. Standard, Block, Limmited, and Extended should not get moxen and ancestral, or even things like oath of druids and land tax, simply because these cards have proven themselves far too powerful to have anything but a distorting effect on limmited card pools.

Then we've got the Reserved List which was created specifically to protect the investments of collectors. The reserved list theoretically preserves the secondary market value of our cards, by ensuring that reprints don't flood the market.

Is it possible for WOTC to print a WB collectors set that would only be legal in the eternal formats. It could include, beyond the obvious power nine, drains, and workshops, cards like swords to plowshares, force of will, red elemental blast, and others.

Does anything else stand in the way of a Chronicles II type of set?

What would we have to do as a community to overcome these barriers?

Do any of you think reprints would be detrimental to the health of vintage magic or to the value of our power cards?

Worldgorger is the 7/7 flying trample creature he is referring to. Sad as it may seem, too many people miss the easy win by just hardcasting thier huge beater and swinging in for the win.

As for Hellkite over Kumano, flying is more important than one more point of power, especially because Hale's got orchards in his mana base.

I like the 5C mana base and hardcast beats, especially when staring at a seal of cleansing or chalices across the table.

The only sanctioned eternal format in my area is a really scrubby legacy meta. If I go clean house there every week, my rating will sky rocket, but do I deserve byes for the vintage world championship, because I can crush zombie and bad goblin decks with landstill? I do not see how this is relevant to vintage at all.

The last time I went there just to watch, and B.S. I saw a five color (all gold spell) invasion block constructed deck battling it out for a spot in the top 4; Wizards.dec won for crying out loud. These two people have 1800+ ratings! Do they deserve byes for Gencon?

It is environments such as this that spawn unrealistic eternal ratings. Sure some people with good eternal ratings, may have earned it against formidable opponents and decks, but there are certainly those who have not. Anyone remember Roy of ICT notoriety; he used to have a 1900+ DCI rating for vintage.

Yes eternal ratings are worthless under the current circumstances, but let's get real here. 75%+ of all worthwhile vintage events are unsanctioned; 100% of the big ones.

I live in Worcester MA. almost every weekend there is a large tournament within an hour from my home, and not one of them is sanctioned. I could play against Ben Kowal, Rich Shay, Ray Robillard, and Andy Probasco in a four round tournament, defeat them all (theoretically of course) and earn zero DCI points!


Yet if I drove ten minutes and played in a four round Legacy tournie this Sunday, against crap decks with mediocre players I would rake in the points. How can we use this system to determine byes?

I think in very simple terms this post was started to state that Control Slaver and Stax appear, from the available data, to be the two strongest decks in the field. The best players recognize this, and will play one of these two decks, or they will plan to play against them.

Is it possible that Steve only wants to stimulate speculative conversation about what decks would be viable in the environment? I think it is pretty accurate to say yes.

The question at hand then becomes, aside from the top two decks, what stands a realistic chance of contending with these two, and not folding to the budget decks that will be played in the early rounds. It is my opinion that budget decks will be numerous, but not in comparison to years past, when Gencon attracted a much more casual crowd than it does now. So assuming you've got to play through a few rounds of FCG and Fish, before facing CS and Stax, what can you play that will win in that type of environment.

Looking at the second teir we've got workshop aggro, oath variants, and TPS. Few if any other decks really belong in this teir. Anything third teir shouldn't realistically make to the top eight. A few really expensive, but underplayed decks could be grouped in here like Uba Stax, and the Riddler, but they will not be played in numbers because few people have the cards to actually build them. Should we account for these match-ups? Maybe if you are really worried about them.

Who cares what Steve decides to play? He'll have to make the call just like everyone else. Without an objectively best deck in the environment, it will come down to deck choice, match-ups, sideboarding and play skill. Steve will play what he feels stands the best chance in this environment, and so will everyone else who is determined to win. I wish him luck and expect him to do well, but I won't be speculating upon his deck choice; he's just one player for crying out loud.

As far as his metagame predictions go, Steve has been correct far more often than he has been wrong. I think he presented sound reason for the predictions, and I have no reason to expect that he is attempting to mislead us in order to gain an advantage. Thanks for telling us what you think Steve.

I don't honestly believe that any monster deck is going to spring out from nowhere at the world champs and grab us by the gonads, maybe a little tech, but nothing revolutionary. Pick a good deck, board accordingly, and play tight. Of those who do, the guy with the best luck should prevail. End of story.

Just to put things in perspective, of the three blue cards in the P9, timetwister was the nuttiest way back before anything was restricted. And yes I did play then. Come to think of it, it would still be the most powerful of the three if they were unrestricted, simply because timetwister can shuffle other timetwisters back into your deck. Stop hatin' on good old twister.

I agree on sneak attack though...I know legacy players that still insist it's awsome.

Steve's gonna play Turbo Lich and Pwn you All!

I tried this out before, but it always felt like cerebral assassin was just better at doing the same things. Eventually I abandoned my Foil S-Chinese gilded loti in favor of a more stable mana base and smaller threats like juggernauts. After testing you'll end up either playing 5/3 or cerebral assassin over this.

Not that 7/10 is bad; there are just always consistency issues, when playing a deck that heavily relies on a five casting cost mana source.

As one of the few who can say they played the game in 94, I can confidently say that relic barrier got lot's of play mainly because of Winter orb. Icy also saw quite a bit of action, because it shut down other artifacts, teamed up with orb to keep people tapped out, and stopped serra angel from making you look stupid. I wish I had though of Titania's Song at the time, because moxen were really the only mana producers that I couldn't deal with.

This would be mad fun. I wonder how many of these cards I still have...

I guess FNM sometimes feels like a casual format, but at PTQs and other more "important" tournaments, the players are far more serious. I may be wrong, but even TMD vintage adepts approach our tournaments with less of a cut throat mentality, than many standard players. When I play in other formats, I frequently feel as though I have to diligently watch out for cheating, and there is almost no sense of community.

Everyone knows who the standard players are at vintage tournaments. Generally they are the ones calling for judges three times a match, and riffle shuffling the crap out of your deck; no offense intended to those of you who sling the less broken spells of other formats.

I play many formats, but imho the thing that makes vintage great is the players themselves. I have fun losing to nice people, but I have no fun winning against some of the standard players out there.

EDIT: I have met many limited/block/standard/extended players who are great people, but most of the jerks I have had the pleasure of dealing with come from the same environment. In vintage however, the jerks seem few and far between in comparison.

@ Mrieff

I know what Randy means by those statements. If pros played vintage (which ain't gonna happen so don't fret) their testing would eliminate some of the chaff that gets played. Sometimes it isn't quite as apparent as it would seem, that any particular card is not good enough to make the cut, because there are so many broken spells in any given deck, that the weak link hidden within won't cost you games. Pros make it a point to tighten up deck lists and weed out these little nuggets. They don't have to create brand new innovations. They can just make the decks we all play better, and that alone will significantly impact the format. With really tight deck lists we lose a lot of our freedom.

On a related note, pros player better than us. Our only advantage is greater understanding of the format, and if vintage were supported in a pro format, we would lose that advantage. It's no fun to be the best player in your metagame, only to have it invaded by hundreds of more skilled opponents. It may become more challenging, and possibly encourage you to improve your own skill, but most of us do not have the free time to invest into magic, that the pros will undoubtedly devote to it. Casual players in particular will get frustrated when they no longer stand a chance.

It's not that complicated actually. They are better at this game than us, and lack only the motivation that sanctioned play would provide to learn "our format," and beat us at "our" game. Nobody enjoys losing, do they?

Of course Randy would sound like he was insulting us, if he simply stated, "they are better than you, and you will lose to them." Being the nice guy that he is, he avoided actually stating what everyone should already know. "Johnny Magic is gonna make you look like and feel like an amature whe he plays against you."

Chalice of the void is the most versitile disruption card in workshop aggro. There are times when it is difficult to maximize it's potential, but it will cause your opponent more problems than it will cause you 90% of the time. Workshop aggro has a much broader mana curve than non-workshop based decks, which enables you to not only drop the chalice with a variable number of counters, but you as the workshop player, will have far fewer of your spells countered by the card. Chalice does not shut decks down completely most of the time, but it does buy time, and seriously stifle the number of options your opponent has during the game. Chalice looses some of its effectiveness when your opponent runs a mana curve equally as diverse as your own, but it will always be useful when going first, and you drop it with zero counters. I agree that running less than a full compliment of chalices is an error.