In reading Steve Menendian's article "So Many Insane Plays - Grow 2K13 Primer and Tournament Report", I began thinking of how to use a "time walk-based" gush shell with regrowth. The idea is to take more turns by recycling time walk and to win with creatures or with jace. Extra turns are amazing in a grow deck: extra land drops means extra gush activations, jace activations, hits with trygon predator, etc. This plan avoids the reliance on storm and on playing time vault/key.

Win conditions:
2 Young Pyromancer
2 Jace, the mind scupltor
2 Trygon Predator

Engine:
4 Gush
4 Regrowth
1 Timetwister
1 Time walk
1 Fastbond
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Preordain
1 Ponder

Disruption:
4 Force of will
3 Mental Misstep
3 Thought Seize

Mana:
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest

Sideboard:
4 Steel Sabotage
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Young Pyromancer
1 Mental Misstep
4 Ravenous Trap
3 Surgical Extraction

Thank you for the comments, Onslaught. I think that Tinker for Colossus and burning wish are mutually exclusive (only one big win condition is necessary). That being said, the actual win condition of a deck defines a lot of what the deck is. Tinker is a better win condition if you don't plan on generating a lot of storm: a deck like this with fewer cantrips is not capable of generating as much storm. Something that got my interest is playing 4 Regrowth and 1 Timetwister (and 1 Time Walk) in a deck as an alternative to playing time vault/key. Here is my "Bob Tinker Gush" list:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Gush
4 Force of Will
4 Regrowth
1 Brainstorm
1 Timetwister
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tinker
1 Blightsteel Colossus
2 Trygon Predator
3 Jace, the mind sculptor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Fastbond
4 Mental Misstep
2 Mana Drain
-------------------
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand

Hi,

The list below is a Dark Confidant - based Gush deck that focuses on individually powerful threats that supplement the Gush engine (Fastbond into gushes into Tendrils) directly or indirectly. The reason I am interested in this style of gush deck is that it attacks from multiple angles simultaneously, which means that while your opponent is trying to deal with your "small" threats (big individual payoff for minimal resources required), you can assemble the gush engine with little to no resistance. No testing has been done with this list, but take my word for it, this list will not die to it's own dark confidants:

Maindeck (60)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Force of Will
4 Gush
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Mana Drain
4 Mental Misstep
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fastbond
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Burning Wish
1 Time Walk
--------------
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta

Sideboard(15)
1 Smash To Smithereens
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Timetwister
1 Grapeshot
1 Tendrills of Agony
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Steel Sabotage
1 Mana Drain

This is in response to comments by Storm and Steve:

Thinking about Steve's comments, the inclusions mentioned do require a large amount of redesign and are not topical to this thread (I will post a list soon on the deck discussion section): The Gush engine that Steve builds in his article is powerful: it represents an insurmountable amount of card advantage for essentially no mana investment and assembles itself as such early in the game and can win in one big turn. The idea I was presenting was that Gush as a card can be powerful if it is not relied upon as "the engine" (as RUG uses it), but nonetheless can be used as an engine in a critical turn (as Steve's deck uses it). Storm's comments about the "cantrip" approach more easily assembling the Gush engine are accurate. The point I am making is that ability to play powerful creatures (and more Jace) that still supplement the gush engine makes it difficult for opponents to deal with (attacking simultaneously from 2 to 3 angles strains any kind of resistance an opposing deck could pose).

I looked at the Gushstorm list by Nat Moes.
I see that the oath combo is compact enough to allow playing the good blue cantrips as well as burning wish.

Zach

This article is a worthwhile read and the match loss was unfortunate.
Young pyromancer is the best grow creature and I'm pondering which grow-shell can utilize it best.

What are your thoughts on Burning Wish in a gush list (fetching Yawgmoth's Will, Tendrils, Timetwister/Wheel of Fortune, Thoughtseize, Smash to Smithereens, Grapeshot, and/or a value card like Maelstrom pulse)?

I'm asking this question because I think that the gush engine could be made more powerful by consolidating the functionality of many cards to fewer cards while increasing the number of "offense" spells in the main-deck (the principle that makes Dark Confidant powerful).

Building on the wish-idea, what are your thoughts on the pairing of Deathrite Shaman and Dark Confidant in Gush lists?
My thoughts were:
Deathrite offsets the life-loss from Bob, who is otherwise a powerhouse in a blue deck
if a gush deck played 9-10 fetch-lands main-deck and a wished-for Wheel of Fortune in the sideboard, shaman always taps for mana when required
that shaman allows gush to play more "mana sources" without flooding (allowing more jaces, big wish turns, etc.) and avoids the need for any basic lands.
That having wish-access to a draw-7 means that it doesn't matter so much that shaman and confidant don't chain into a yawg-will directly (as preordain, ponder, and regrowth would otherwise) because it takes fewer other slots to do so.

Thank you,

Zach

Hmm,

I'm thinking that the cards that oath fears most are challice on 2, trygon predator, and nature's claim.
It seems that show and tell or tinker are the best answers to those cards. As long as you can abuse those cards, do you need utility spells like hurkyl's, claim, and lightning bolt?

A question that keeps coming to my mind with the gush deck is: why isn't counterbalance concidered a card in vintage? Vintage is all about controlling what goes on the stack and then winning big right? Doesn't counterbalance/top + win condition do just that?
The only reasons for the absense of cbalance I can see are: mishra's workshop, and no 4x brainstorms.
I see that you are shifting to more tops already. Gush seems like it would have a good interaction with the counterbalance engine, as it allows you to dig two cards deeper at a moment's notice so you can use top again to try to counter your opponent's spell.

Some thoughts:
Tinker target should either be sphinx (vs aggro/dredge), inkwell (vs jace), or battlesphere (if you consider being able to cast your target a priority). If you consider oathing to iona or don a priority, skip the tinkerbot package.
 Iona and Don are a very good duo, as they answer you're opponent's hand and board position when in tandem.

Have you considered adding another threat besides the big creatures and jace? It's hard for me to think of what might work (seeing as such a threat cannot be a creature), but I find sometimes that the decks that only want to "win big" lose out on some of the incremental/incidental win ability that cards like confidant/trygon yield. Those types of cards provide hedges against cards like bitter ordeal or the right sequence of creature removal and I find that they boost the power of cards like Jace, as he can be used as a support card to an onboard threat rather than just a dig card. The only such card I can think of is something like vedalken shackles (although that is pretty bad in vintage). I noticed that the modern oath list has a lot of one of "answers" like hurkyl's, bolt, claim, and I just want to put something in their place that the opponent has to deal with or lose.

On the topic of winning versus answering your opponent's threats:
the reason I stick by the confidant/jace package in the blue control decks is that they can incidentally win the game if left untouched (i.e., the card drawing/support cards are win conditions, while gush is just a support card). You can try to trump a confidant/jace, but you only have a short window in which to do so, which closes after the opponent draws the appropriate countermagic.

On identifying strategies that support time vault:
You need a clock in order for vault key to be lethal.
Jace and creatures are clocks, so you are locked into Jace and tinker at least.
Trygon predator is good in time vault decks because it both represents a clock necessary to make vault key lethal and it protects vault key: destroys null rod, sets opponent back on mana giving you time to set up vault key.
At the point where you decide to play vault key you are locked into playing confidant: you want confidant in the deck because he is both a clock and will dig his way to vault key eventually, making the life loss irrelevant.

Do others dissagree?

Hi,

I am liking mindbreak trap alot in this style of deck's sideboard over a card like duress.
I think that 2 mindbreak traps can probably be more effective here than 3 duresses against a storm deck.
You can use top + gush + tutors to reliably put trap in your hand and avoid having it thoughtseized. For example, you could have trap atop your deck and let your opponent strip your hand all they like, then trap their mind's desire by flipping a top.

I lost a game to an early confidant + jace playing this deck, which is why I wanted to try playing confidant myself. I understand your reasoning on not playing him.

Do you think that the gush/top engine could have a place in a remora deck? It would be interesting at least.

Hi,

A thought to concider is playing dark confidant + Jace in a gush deck. These cards constitute soft locks on spells in vintage as I see it. Gush, dark confidant, and Jace seem to compensate for each other's weaknesses: Gush helps dig for action when you need it and go infinite, which confidant and Jace cannot do. conf and Jace make spell soft locks and grind the game out, which gush cannot do.

I was trying the current plan against shops and, while I like it, I have an idea in addition: Viashino Heretic. He is resistant to a lot of the anti-trygon hate like hellkite, maze, tangle wire at a correct board state and he seems like he could just finish the game against a shop deck after killing enough 4 and 6 drops. Mox opal and mountain makes the activation more reliable as well. Thanks.

One final question (sorry, should have added this above): what about a singleton cunning wish (optimally gets something for each matchup)? Thanks.

Hi,

I like the article.

What is your oppinion on:

Hurkyl's Recall maindeck (or sb) (interactions include: storm count booster, null rod bounce, tops drawing, workshop matchup timewalk/setup win)?
Top #4 vs ponder or other (I like top alot lately in gush lists, esp if you're playing opal)?
Choice of tinker target? (My favorite in a drain list is Battlesphere, if for no other reason than, half the time he entered play, I cast him.)
Some sort of answer to Gaddock Teeg/other annoying hate creature in sb (bolt, fire/ice, pyroclasm, firespout, etc)?

Thank you.

Hi,

I prefer duplicant or trike in the mono red style stax. If you want to cover more bases, try one of each. One of the annoying things I found when facing down these 6 drops is that I never expected them and they always seemed better than I would have expected against me (was playing tezz online). A mix of each gives more suprise value, and lends them more value if you are recurring them with welder.

Hi,

Maybe gush could be good in this deck. My thought is that, if you have 5 or more cards in hand, when you gush, you will have 8 or more cards in hand, then you move to discard phase and boom: your bomb artifact goes to the yard. If you are reluctant about cards like wheel of fortune because of their symmetry, this could be an alternative.

Thanks.

@Zherbus

It is a valid point that the deck seems to be moving in the direction of Tezz. In fact, I still think that dark confidant + jace is probably the best card drawing engine in the format without brainstorm to support gush. Even so, I still think that if a gush deck is your choice, then sensei's divining top belongs there somewhere. I found that I was able to chain gushes more often with top in the deck. This doesn't necessitate playing quirion dryads. For instance, I think that sensei's divining top could play a good role in doomsday lists for the same reason it was very good in legacy ANT lists: you get the card off your top-deck tutors like doomsday one turn earlier. However, for the purpose of this discussion, I am still squarely in the oppinion that top is the best "engine" available to make dryads bigger. The argument about seal is a good one and I could see playing ponder in it's place.

I saw that you wanted to play more Jace in the deck and I am of the same persuasion, but found that the only kind of build that could create the necessary mana was one involving lotus cobras (and if we are playing cobras, why not go to cobra tezz and skip the dryads and gushes?), and that wasn't very consistent either. I think that one jace is necessary in basically any blue control deck because no other card singly breaks a stalemate in a control mirror with as much consistency. I read the comment about Empty the warrens as well. The problem with modern gush builds in my eyes is that, while they are "ok" at chaining spells together, they are nowheres near as consistent (with the exception of doomsday) at doing so as, say ANT or TPS. So the gush engine has to be more of a card advantage engine than a storm builder. Tinker fits into this mentality quite well, as you want more countermagic/cards in hand than your opponent to protect it, but you weren't able to produce the storm necessary to cast a tendrils/empty.

Thanks.

@ personalbackfire

That's a good question.
I'll make a hypothetical scenerio to explain what I mean.
Let's say you have one 10/10 dryad and your opponent has a kataki, gaddock teeg, pridemage, 3/4 tarmogoyf, and a magus of the moon and you are at 8 life and your opponent is at 16.The abilities of the creatures are basically irrelevant here. Although you have the more powerful creature, you are losing this game because, even if you chump the tarmogoyf, you will take 8. This scenerio isn't rare, because the beats decks are basically all beats and not much else whereas you really just have 7 creatures and tinker, so dryad is sometimes out too late to chump block and prevent the damage, or you get him out and your opponent keeps piling creatures up because that's all they are drawing and they attack with a critical mass. Back to the original scenerio, if you have an active lavamancer on the board, you still lose, but if you were at 10 life instead of 8, your chances are much better (you'll still have to worry about lightning bolt targeting you). Also, having lavamancer makes the development of this scenerio much more rare. An analogy is that Lavamancer is to beats what Trygon Predator is to stax. The jace issue that you bring up is valid as well. Jace is a reason why Lavamancer is very good in this deck's sideboard. Let's say you have a dryad and a lavamancer in play and your opponent casts a Jace. The jace is not long for this world because if he bounces, you lavashock it. If he faitseals or brainstorms, you just attack. I've seen people compare lavamancer to lightning bolt and say that bolt is better because it is faster. That just begs the question of why "slow" cards like Trygon and Jace have become so popular. Lavamancer interacts in ways that vintage decks aren't designed to combat very well. I also found out that he is good against dredge games 2 and 3. When you have grave hate available, dredge slows down alot and tries to create the same critical mass of creatures as I described above. Lavamancer combats that scenerio well. I don't mean to sound self indulging, but I just think that lavamancer is amazing.

Thanks.
--Zach

Hello,

I made a variation on Steven Menendian's Grow-a-Tog list that was posted on the Grow-a-Tog board below by Troy Costik.
I cut the Preordains, Ponder, Misdirection, and Hurkyl's recall for Sensei's Divining Tops, Vault Key, Jace, and Imperial Seal and came up with an innovative sideboard plan involving Grim Lavamancer and Extirpate. Below is my list and reasoning. I am interested reading your in your comments:

1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Tinker
1 Imperial Seal
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
3 Trygon Predator
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
4 Thoughtseize
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Gush
1 Fastbond
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Brainstorm
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropicla Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn

Sideboard:
1 Island
1 Forest
2 Extirpate
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Nature's Claim
2 Yixlid Jailer
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ravenous Trap

Explanations:
1 Jace: I found that hands were piling up with lands and that I was sometimes running out of cantrip gas with a bunch of mana sources in play. I feel that one jace is all that is needed to solve this problem (given the strict mana count, running 2 is cost prohibitive)

Sensei's Divining Top: I found that preordain just doesn't cut it in this deck. Brainstorm was amazing here because it put 2 lands back after a gush, netting you 5 new good cards. Top is similarly the bomb because it allows you to chain tutors and card drawing spells together and puts two good cards on top of your deck so your gush always hits gas. There is nother more disapointing than drawing two lands off a gush. Finally, top makes top-deck tutors like imperial seal into demonic tutors. Top is also more much needed tinker fodder.

Vault/Key: Since menendian was running tinker, and I am also running tops to go with the key, I decided that the best combo in the game would be good here as well.

Imperial Seal: Gush and Top make this card much faster, and vault key and fastbond makes this card much more powerful.

4 Grim Lavamancer: The bane of a 10/10 quirion dryad is a bunch of utility dorks. The bane of any utility dork deck is always the lavamancer. They just can't win through him if played early enough. Perhaps the number is wrong, but they are good in multiples, so maybe 3 is a good compromise.

No black leyliine in sideboard: extirpate instead: This deck has trouble casting leyline and wants to play hate cards that synergize with the cantrips/dryad and tutoring of the deck. That's why a one of trap (maybe mindbreak trap nad hurkyl's recall have a home here as well) is good and why the relic and spellbomb are good. Extirpate isn't played enough in my oppinion, as it is good versus oath and dredge. Maybe pithing needle could be included as well.

Thank you.

--Zach

One observation to note: Ethersworn canonist and standstill are a combo. UW fish standstill any one?

Hi,

Upon more testing, I found that 4x maindeck wurmcoil engines are really good. I found that serum powder was not very effective, as you don't want to do much mulliganing as you do with dredge. So I swaped out powders for wurmcoils. Wurmcoil along with lodestone give the deck an effective way to deal with null rod from game 1, as your opponent may be able to keep you off your combo, but your creatures clean house anyway.

Hi,

I have been very impressed with this deck.
Myr Battlesphere could be your forgemaster creature target of choice, as he costs the least of such bombs and is thus easiest to cast and he finishes the game in short order etc. I think that you could make the sideboard a little more neat by putting 4 Lodestone golum maindeck. Turn 1 golum probably = gg 80% of the time against 80% of the decks in vintage (similar to trinisphere) and it at least clears the way to win next turn. This also makes you more resilient against null rod. This clears up the board for cards like sphere of resistance or other things for the storm and fish matchup.

Hello,

For the reasons that you like triskellion, I also like Contagion Clasp.
Concider that Clasp has an interaction with Challice, Smokestack, Welder, and Tangle Wire (and Triskellion), and that it can be used to eliminate a number of creatures.
It is definitely worth a look in the sideboard, if not the maindeck, but I would maindeck 2 of them.
Also, concider Wurmcoil Engine. There is no better 6 drop in the stax mirror, as he trumps all of the other stax creatures, including steel Hellkite.
He also has obvious interaction with Smokestack and Goblin Welder. I think that wurmcoil has a place somewhere in workshops builds, because if you have seen him in type 2, you know how powerful the combination of abilities he has for his cost is.

Comments:
Jace is pretty good for what this deck is trying to do: 3-4 may be a better fit.
I liked grim lavamancer in the games that I played because he was often a soft lock against decks relying on cards liike dark confidant or other utility beaters. Mr. Grim may also help your metalworker situation.
I like null rod + flux as an anti-stax strategy.
Tabernacle is great anti dredge tech.
Maybe ghost quarter is a little too much on the colorless strip effects.
I tried red blasts in the sideboard and liked them.

Hi, I like your idea but would take it in another direction (this post is relevant).
The problem I see with GAT now is that it runs out of gas without merchant scroll, ponder, and brainstorm and leaves you with a so-so dryad.
Try cutting the preordains and something else in GAT and add Jace and Lotus Cobra. I found that jace's brainstorming each turn gave me all the gas my dryad needed.

The best deck to play is the one you think you will win with. That's all.

Hi,

After some more testing, the only card that I am unhappy with is the chain of vapor/echoing truth/bounce spell.
Some other type of permanent hate card should be used in it's place IMO, but I don't know what that should be.

After some testing I can agree with Storm's evaluation about confidant and trygon, if not the conclusion. If using red, grim lavamancer is another possible option along the lines of "creatures that give incremental advantage/constitute softlocks against certain opponents".