What deck would you play???

[Tonmehr]

Ok so here is the scenario.

You are going to a Vintage tournament tomorrow, pre-rotation.  Given access to all the cards in Magic, and adhering to the current banned/restricted list, what deck would you sleeve up?

[Killane]

An intelligent answer to this question would require a much more detialed understanding of the tournament you were going to attend:

- It is Sanctioned or Proxy? If proxy, what is the proxy limit?
- Is it a well developed metagame, or are most of the players new to the format?
- If  is a developed metagame, what decks are prevailent? Does anyone play Dredge? do people skimp on hate, or even avoid it alltogether? Are there people there that own (or proxy) Workshop decks?
-What was the Top 8 like at the last event in this area? Who are the ringers and what do they like to play?
-Am I better, equal to, one of, or worse than the local ringers?

Once all these factors were taken into consideration, a decision could be made. As an example, locally I am one of the top 4 players in the store when it comes to Vintage. No one owns Workshops or enought stuff to proxy out a Shop deck. i tend to play storm decks- my natural predator is missing, I don;t mind playing a skill-intensive deck since most of the plays will be less skilled than I am, and it slaughters random decks when do tned to show up alot. However, when going to a larger Vintage event out of city, there are a reasonable number of players who are better than I am. Many of them play dredge. Others play Oath. thre are lots of shops though I don;t think many brilliant shop pilots. If I were to go to one of these events, I'd be packing something like Dark Times with Green splash. Having an edge aganst the pros who show up with Dredge is a good thing.

to make a long story short, you need to put more thought into your question. Sure you could just say you'll show up with the sickest MUD list ever, only to find out that everyone is packing 4 Trigons and 4 Nature's claims maindeck, with 4 Hurkyl's out of the Board. Questions like this are useless in a vaccum.

[Tonmehr]

An intelligent answer to this question would require a much more detialed understanding of the tournament you were going to attend:

- It is Sanctioned or Proxy? If proxy, what is the proxy limit?
- Is it a well developed metagame, or are most of the players new to the format?
- If  is a developed metagame, what decks are prevailent? Does anyone play Dredge? do people skimp on hate, or even avoid it alltogether? Are there people there that own (or proxy) Workshop decks?
-What was the Top 8 like at the last event in this area? Who are the ringers and what do they like to play?
-Am I better, equal to, one of, or worse than the local ringers?

Once all these factors were taken into consideration, a decision could be made. As an example, locally I am one of the top 4 players in the store when it comes to Vintage. No one owns Workshops or enought stuff to proxy out a Shop deck. i tend to play storm decks- my natural predator is missing, I don;t mind playing a skill-intensive deck since most of the plays will be less skilled than I am, and it slaughters random decks when do tned to show up alot. However, when going to a larger Vintage event out of city, there are a reasonable number of players who are better than I am. Many of them play dredge. Others play Oath. thre are lots of shops though I don;t think many brilliant shop pilots. If I were to go to one of these events, I'd be packing something like Dark Times with Green splash. Having an edge aganst the pros who show up with Dredge is a good thing.

to make a long story short, you need to put more thought into your question. Sure you could just say you'll show up with the sickest MUD list ever, only to find out that everyone is packing 4 Trigons and 4 Nature's claims maindeck, with 4 Hurkyl's out of the Board. Questions like this are useless in a vaccum.

Well I guess the main idea is that I would want to go to a bigger tournament.  Beating a bunch of noobs withouth power or access to cards  wouldn't be a consideration.   I would want to take into consideration the best decks out there.

[Cyberpunker]

Play the deck that is stronger than the rest. Because all else equal, if both players play perfectly then the person with the stronger deck will win through sheer strength. Don't play the "metagame" or the "hate" deck in my opinion. Because you never know what decks will show up and the "hate" deck will always lose to another matchup that it is not prepared to hate.

My opinion is Elephant Oath.   I even wrote some other posts to help explain why!

[nineisnoone]

if the whole of the preparation time is today, then probably just whatever I happen to be have the most time spent playing with at the time.  deck choice is important, but really knowing the in's and out's of your deck well is worth a whole lot. 

[TheBrassMan]

Ichorid

[voltron00x]

Ichorid   

Fixed.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Just play MUD and go win already.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

GOBLINS LOL

[zeus-online]

.

[Tonmehr]

So i just finished a Scars prerelease and I have to say based on the new cards I would have to play Trygon Tezz.  There are just so many artifacts out there that need some killing lol. Not to mention I would say this deck is very strong against all other except maybe storm.  The possibility that storm just goes off before you can get your vault pieces together keeps the balance.  I guess that being said, Storm might be the oddball deck to play, though you better pray you don't run into Shops.  God I hate rock, scissors, paper.

[mmcgeach]

So i just finished a Scars prerelease and I have to say based on the new cards I would have to play Trygon Tezz.  There are just so many artifacts out there that need some killing lol.

Dang, you took a vintage deck to a SOM prerelease?  Just play ANT there, man.  Don't worry about the artifacts a prerelease deck can deploy.  None of them matter.  Just win on turn 2. 

[Doomsday]

So i just finished a Scars prerelease and I have to say based on the new cards I would have to play Trygon Tezz.  There are just so many artifacts out there that need some killing lol. Not to mention I would say this deck is very strong against all other except maybe storm.  The possibility that storm just goes off before you can get your vault pieces together keeps the balance.  I guess that being said, Storm might be the oddball deck to play, though you better pray you don't run into Shops.  God I hate rock, scissors, paper.

Probably none of those artifacts other than Ratchet Bomb will see play, don't worry about them.  Not that Trygon is bad, it still eats up Oaths and Stax/MUD pieces and all.

If it was me I would bring Dredge to any unknown meta.  You roll most everything game one, and if they don't pack lots of sideboard hate....

[Tonmehr]

So I am currently working on Bobby Tendrils.  I think with the addition of Wasteland and Strip Mine in the sideboard coupled with some other MUD hate I am in pretty good shape. Against anything fast you just try to go off and in some of the slower instances I am using Sphinx in the sideboard even though there is a large amount of Jace out there.

 I really like Dredge, but the possibility of getting totally shut out by a couple of cards really make by butt pucker. 

[pierce]

Pretend it's 06 and play Grim Long, with 2 preordain and 1 ponder over the 3 brainstorm you lose. Turn 1 everyone and yell "I am Sepiroth Menendian" loudly often.

That should work.

[TheBrassMan]

I really like Dredge, but the possibility of getting totally shut out by a couple of cards really make by butt pucker. 

meh, better than getting totally shut out *unless* you draw a couple of cards

[Killane]

I really like Dredge, but the possibility of getting totally shut out by a couple of cards really make by butt pucker. 

meh, better than getting totally shut out *unless* you draw a couple of cards

It really is a myth that Dedge folds to too much hate. It takes more than that. I took Dredge to a smaller event where I went 12-0 in games, 6-0 in matches dispite seeing either a Leyline of the Void or Pithing Needle on Bazaar plus min 2 ot pieces of hate every game two. Slow dredge, use Ichoirds and force them to use the bad hate, run 4 Claim and 4 Chain, the deck is a monster and you get two games to fight through the hate every time. The only "bad" matchup IMHO is Dark Times due to game 1 Leyline, but even then they need to know what you're on or get very lucky.

[Tonmehr]

It seems like Dark Times keeps coming up in this thread.  Is it possible that playing a deck that simply hates all the other decks is the key?

[TheBrassMan]

Dark Times was only mentioned twice - by the same person - and only as an anti-ichorid tool - and only because it runs 4 leyline of the void maindeck, which any deck could do.  (Note that some Ichorid players, myself included, run maindeck anti-leyline cards, meaning this isn't even that exciting a plan)

I don't want to bash on the deck, but one person mentioning it as an anti-Ichorid choice isn't exactly a ringing endorsement... I'm pretty sure Dark Times would be seriously suggested only by a minority of TMDers.

[Killane]

Dark Times was only mentioned twice - by the same person - and only as an anti-ichorid tool - and only because it runs 4 leyline of the void maindeck, which any deck could do.  (Note that some Ichorid players, myself included, run maindeck anti-leyline cards, meaning this isn't even that exciting a plan)

I don't want to bash on the deck, but one person mentioning it as an anti-Ichorid choice isn't exactly a ringing endorsement... I'm pretty sure Dark Times would be seriously suggested only by a minority of TMDers.

This is entirely true. I'd only pick it for a Dredge heavy metagame wherein I know that some of the top players run Dredge. Sorry for generating any confusion by mentioning it several times.

[Tonmehr]

Bummer, I really like Dark Times.  Destroying your opponents plans before worrying about winning is a very effective strategy.  Also it almost completely shuts down Vault, though it would seem that it's win condition is a little "accidental".

Does anyone have an opinion on the resiliency of deck win conditions? e.g. Tendrils (storm)/MUD Lock/Tezzeret, Vault and Key

[TheBrassMan]

Hey man, if you like Dark Times, run it, no one reasonable is going to argue with you there - but if you want to know what we would play, I would guess you're not going to get a lot of "Dark Times" as your answer.

Myself, I'd seriously question the assumption "Destroying your opponents plans before worrying about winning is a very effective strategy," but again, if you just enjoy the game more that way, who are we to stop you!

What are you asking when you say "Does anyone have an opinion on the resiliency of deck win conditions? e.g. Tendrils (storm)/MUD Lock/Tezzeret, Vault and Key" ?  I'm not sure I follow.

[AmbivalentDuck]

In an unknown field, I always play the least interactive strategy available.  Basically, it's easier to have the right threat than the right answer.  For the current meta, that's probably Gush-fueled Doomsday.

Like others have pointed out, Dark Times is disruption-heavy, though its disruption is pretty general.  You still have to know what you're doing with those Duresses and Sacraments.  In particular, the "best" card in an opponent's hand may not be their best card against you.

Would you rather guess at whether Drain or Time Vault is better against you or just take the Drain and combo out?

[Tonmehr]

Hey man, if you like Dark Times, run it, no one reasonable is going to argue with you there - but if you want to know what we would play, I would guess you're not going to get a lot of "Dark Times" as your answer.

Myself, I'd seriously question the assumption "Destroying your opponents plans before worrying about winning is a very effective strategy," but again, if you just enjoy the game more that way, who are we to stop you!

What are you asking when you say "Does anyone have an opinion on the resiliency of deck win conditions? e.g. Tendrils (storm)/MUD Lock/Tezzeret, Vault and Key" ?  I'm not sure I follow.

The question I asked about win condition resiliency probes the question how difficult is it to "stop" a decks ability to win. 

Tendrils: If at the point of critical mass is disrupting this win condition an easy task, in such that a simple counter will spell disaster? In this example nothing short of Mind Break Trap will stop a lethal storm in count in the final steps if the pilot is competent.

Bazaar: While certain cards target the graveyard with "mass removal" the recursio makes the deck exceptionally tenacious.

Vault/Key: This win while very fast and nearly unstoppable protected by counter/disruption, is subject to easy removal and neutering.


That was sort of my train of thought.  There are so many schools of thought on the subject, and I was wondering if there was any type of consensus.

[Gorlo]

That was sort of my train of thought.  There are so many schools of thought on the subject, and I was wondering if there was any type of consensus.

If you're looking for a consensus amongst Magic players about any subject, it's either a general opinion based on many people reading the same experts' articles (which is biased because they don't have much experience on the subject) or just a group liking the same decks/strategies/feeling when they play. Best deck/card choice/playstyle is never set in stone. Your personal experience will always matter most because when you play, you know what works best and not. It's not statistics or theories anymore. It shows you how things work.

Considering my deck choice, I would go with any blue-centric control deck (probably Trygon Tezz). I feel most secure when I have more chance to be the one with the ''last word'' on any spell resolving, as in the control player. It makes me calmer and more focused, and I sure know I make lots of mistakes during a game.

[Colin]

go aggro belcher.  You just play your game, and they hope they have what it takes to stop you.  too me belcher is like old keeper.  game one  50/50.  game two and three 51%/49%

or maybe i missed something and blecher is completely irrelevant.

[2nd_lawl]

The trygon Tezz/jace whatever you want to call it matchup with dark times is nearly as good as the Dredge matchup.
Just sayin'

Edit: I realize that is probably a controversial claim But my evidence to support would be this: I haven't lost to a jace deck in my last 4 Vintage Events, And only lost to one David Ochoa in the event before that (finals of a vintage 8 man at GP columbus).  My losses with dark times in the last 4 events have been as follows:
Workshops
Workshops
Bomberman
Workshops
Fish
I still believe the shop matchup can be brought to an acceptable level with the proper sideboard and I have been feverishly experimenting.  Since I changed sideboards, Im 2-2 against shops in "serious" matches.  I haven't lost to dredge in the last 9 months so there's that.

[Tonmehr]

The trygon Tezz/jace whatever you want to call it matchup with dark times is nearly as good as the Dredge matchup.
Just sayin'

Edit: I realize that is probably a controversial claim But my evidence to support would be this: I haven't lost to a jace deck in my last 4 Vintage Events, And only lost to one David Ochoa in the event before that (finals of a vintage 8 man at GP columbus).  My losses with dark times in the last 4 events have been as follows:
Workshops
Workshops
Bomberman
Workshops
Fish
I still believe the shop matchup can be brought to an acceptable level with the proper sideboard and I have been feverishly experimenting.  Since I changed sideboards, Im 2-2 against shops in "serious" matches.  I haven't lost to dredge in the last 9 months so there's that.

I think I agree with this.  The Dark Times list is very powerful in the modern metagame.  I would include Gate to Phyrexia and Bitterblossom in the Shop Matchup.  If you can land them it is pretty much an auto win.

[TheShop]

I see you mentioning the shop matchup a few times as a potential opponent...if you like raping enemy's (singular-possesive-and in the style of vroman..lolz) board...there is a place for you among the few, the proud, those who roll with shops.  You seem to have just an evil enough mentality regarding other players to enjoy the sadistic times to be had in prison games.

Warning:  Your new deck may inhibit your ability to play with your friends and causes lung cancer.

[znoyes]

The best deck to play is the one you think you will win with. That's all.