I'll drop a recruitment link on News/Salvation. That should get you a few players.

-Goblinboy

I think I go 4-1 vs. CaptainPlanet, not 1-4.
If he goes first, he Unmasks the Mox and draws the game (since Braids is gone, he can't win)
If I go first, I cast everything and make him discard Braids before he can play it, making me win.

I'm pretty sure I'm 4-1 vs. r_x_, not 3-3
If he goes first, he can get everything down, but manaburn doesn't hit me because I pump it all into the Factory.  If he swings with the Village, I can block and pump with Factory, killing both, and then I pump Vinyard mana into the Interrogator, killing him first. Thus, he doesn't attack, and the game is a draw.

And like the others, I think that numbers would help here, too.  It's hard to see what's what.

Great round!

-Goblinboy

r_x_666 - that's what I thought too, but read Rocket Launcher again. It has "summoning sickness"

CaptainPlanet - looks like it.  He probably forgot to return the Loti to the Proctors.

-Goblinboy

You might want to ban Unhinged

We did a T4-style 3CB once, back in March. Here was our ban list:

Banned cards:

All of Unglued (+Unhinged, now)
All ante cards
Any card that forces your opponent to discard more than 1 card a turn.
The Rack
Balance
Strip Mine
Wasteland
Blackmail
Cabal Therapy
Mesmeric Fiend
Meddling Mage
Show and Tell

Banned Decks:
*Any deck that can feasibly force your opponent to discard more than 1 card a turn. (The word force here is important. Mind Bomb is still legal, unless combined with Mindslaver )
*Any deck that can feasibly win on the first turn.


T4-centric stuff

Decree of Silence
Spelljack
Desertion
Mystic Snake
Funeral Charm
Forbid
Fervent Denial
All Spells with an X anywhere on them
(and Capsize should have been banned for this)

Banned Decks:
*Any deck with more than one counterspell in it

The results to that are Here. The brokenness evened itself out. But then again, a few sets have been released since then (well, only 5D and ChK... but still...)

My list is probably far from perfect, but then again, I'd never played a real game of T4 at that point.

-Goblinboy

Hmmm.... this round gives me an idea for a format.

Not that my idea is anything similar to this at all, but it was still the source of inspiration .

Thanks, wonkey_donkey

-Goblinboy

Damn you time zones! MTGnews thread going up now.

Good luck, and may the best team win

-Goblinboy

Perhaps next time we should do PMs. The email kept cutting out


I still think it's 2-2.
If Lone goes first:
L: Mox/Factory/Realist
A: Pit
L: 20-17
A: Counter 1
L: 20-14
A: Counter 2
L: 20-11
A: Counter 3
L: 20-10 (Does NOT attack with Factory, in case Pox hits)
A: Nether Spirit
L/A: Nothin', A builds up to 3 counters.
Now, if A attacks, L will activate Factory + Block + Pump. Factory will still be alive to sac to Pox if Pox is cast. Thus, A can't do any damage to L without Pox. If Pox is cast, we're in the same situation as before.



Oh right. The whole APNAP bit I was thinking Serenity would be gone before the Smokestack trigger resolved, but you're correct here.


Nope. PMs next time, definitely.


Youre On!
I dunno about you guys winning, we've got about 35 3CB's worth of experience with a Lotus-Inclusive environment    We'll see how it goes down.  

-Goblinboy

You are correct. I guess we both missed that one. If I get a chance I'll change it on my post, but it's not like it matters, you whooped us anyway  

Eh. There are bound to be errors when you have 225 matches to compute, none of which are reusable.

-Goblinboy

How about War of the Worlds #2 over Week Before +Thanksgiving Week?

(That's 2nd and 3rd week in November for you non-USers)

But remember, MTGNews ban list based this time, that means Lotus Inclusive.    It's Home Team time!

-Goblinboy

Here are the new results, with an interesting stat on there: the NET POINTS you made for your team. Someone winning 1 match and losing 2 matches may make the same number of points as someone who tied 3 times, but they have lost 6 NET points because the opponent got 12 points where he only got 6.

An interesting fact: While Mr. Gnome-It-All got the most points, plechorich actually tipped the scales more than he did!
And the biggest scale-tipper: Lone Warrior, scoring 60 more points for TMD than he scored for MTGNews.

AFTER CORRECTIONS: (heh, they actually widened the gap!)


----------TMD vs MTGNEWS----------
X| 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-0-1-2-3-4-5
1| 0-4-3-6-0-6-6-3-6-6-1-4-1-4-3 = 53 (+18)
2| 0-6-2-0-0-2-6-0-0-0-0-0-2-6-6 = 30 (-24)
3| 0-4-2-6-0-2-4-0-6-0-0-0-0-6-3 = 33 (-18)
4| 6-2-4-6-2-2-1-6-6-6-0-2-2-0-0 = 45 (+12)
5| 6-6-0-6-0-6-6-0-6-0-0-0-2-4-1 = 43 (+0)
6| 2-6-2-0-0-2-0-6-0-6-6-3-6-1-3 = 43 (+3)
7| 3-4-6-6-2-2-2-3-2-6-2-2-2-2-4 = 48 (+24)
8| 6-4-0-0-2-2-6-6-6-6-0-0-2-6-6 = 52 (+21)
9| 6-6-0-0-0-2-6-6-0-0-0-6-2-6-6 = 46 (+6)
0| 6-2-4-2-2-2-0-6-2-2-6-6-0-2-2 = 44 (+15)
1| 6-6-2-0-0-2-0-2-0-0-6-0-2-3-6 = 35 (-12)
2| 6-6-0-6-6-2-6-0-6-6-0-6-6-0-0 = 56 (+24)
3| 2-6-0-0-6-0-2-0-6-2-0-6-2-6-6 = 44 (+6)
4| 2-2-2-2-2-2-1-2-2-2-0-2-2-2-2 = 27 (-9)
5| 6-6-4-6-6-2-6-0-6-4-3-1-2-3-4 = 59 (+36)!!

-----------MTGNEWS vs TMD---------
X| 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-0-1-2-3-4-5
1| 6-6-6-0-0-2-3-0-0-0-0-0-2-2-0 = 27 (-30)
2| 1-0-1-2-0-0-1-1-0-2-0-0-0-2-0 = 10 (-60)!!
3| 3-2-2-1-6-2-0-6-6-1-2-6-6-2-1 = 46 (+15)
4| 0-6-0-0-0-6-0-6-6-2-6-0-6-2-0 = 40 (-6)
5| 6-6-6-2-6-6-2-2-6-2-6-0-0-2-0 = 52 (+24)
6| 0-2-2-2-0-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-6-2-2 = 30 (-6)
7| 0-0-1-4-0-6-2-0-0-6-6-0-2-4-0 = 31 (-24)
8| 3-6-6-0-6-0-3-0-0-0-2-6-6-2-6 = 46 (+6)
9| 0-6-0-0-0-6-2-0-6-2-6-0-0-2-0 = 30 (-24)
0| 0-6-6-0-6-0-0-0-6-2-6-0-2-2-1 = 37 (-9)
1| 4-6-6-6-6-0-2-6-6-0-0-6-6-6-3 = 63 (+33)
2| 1-6-6-2-6-3-2-6-0-0-6-0-0-2-4 = 44 (+6)
3| 4-2-6-2-2-0-2-2-2-6-2-0-2-2-2 = 36 (+3)
4| 1-0-0-6-1-4-2-0-0-2-3-6-0-2-3 = 30 (-21)
5| 3-0-3-6-4-3-1-0-0-2-0-6-0-2-1 = 31 (-18)

Standings:

1: Mr Gnome-it-all (MTG) 63
2: plecorich (TMD) 59
3: limbo (TMD) 56
4: wonkey_donkey (TMD) 53
5: Alfred (TMD) 52
5: stupid_kid171 (MTG) 52
7: Machinus (TMD) 48
8: god_child (MTG) 46
8: Pinky (TMD) 46
8: Dusk_ (MTG) 46
11: Morefling (TMD) 45
12: BlueJay (TMD) 44
12: Quilt (MTG) 44
12: theorigamist (TMD) 44
15: xthexpunisherx (TMD) 43
15: Jacob Orlove (TMD) 43
18: ImAtHome (MTG) 40
19: Ra_69 (MTG) 37
20: Bluemage76 (MTG) 36
21: Nazdakka (TMD) 35
22: combo_dude (TMD) 33
23: Hivemaster (MTG) 31
23: Reedofalethia (MTG) 31
25: leviat (TMD) 30
25:Fadeblue (MTG) 30
25: r_x_666 (MTG) 30
25: Chimpanzee (MTG) 30
29: Goblinboy (MTG) 27
29: Nibble (TMD) 27
30: Lone Warrior (MTG) 10

Team Totals:
TMD - 658
MTGNews - 562

-Goblinboy

Did you forget to add the corrections I sent you? I guess they got lost in the email again.
I think you guys still won, but not by nearly as much:

Corrections:

TMD 2 vs MTGNews 6
Your results: 3-3
My results - 2-2
Shouldn't change anything but player rankings. Akroma will always get Forced.

TMD 5 vs MTGNews 6
Your results: 2-2
My results: 6-0 TMD
If Channel gets Forced, X just uses Grove to play Colossus. If Colossus gets forced, it goes back to library, gets redrawn, played again, win. If Force isn't played, and Fadeblue goes for Avatar for UU, Colossus will come out with X at 9 life, then Fade can play Avatar, then X swings (9-9), then Fade swings (4-9) then X swings (9-0, win)

TMD 5 vs MTGNews 14
Your results: 6-0 TMD
My results: 4-1 TMD
If Ch goes first:
Ch: Tundra, Isamaru
X: Grove
Ch: 20-18
X: Counter 1
Ch: 20-16
X: Counter 2
Ch: 20-14
X: Counter 3 (Daze protection)
Ch: 20-12
X: Cast Channel, floating 1, pay 10 life, it gets Dazed, pay another life (20-1)
Draw, since if Colossus swings, Isamaru kills.

TMD 5 vs MTGNews 15
Your results: 6-0 TMD
My results: 1-4 MTG
If X goes first
X: Grove
R: Mox/Mishra/Sphere
X: Counter 1
R: 20-18
X: Counter 2
R: 20-16
X: Counter 3 (get around Sphere)
R: 20-14
X: Pay 3 mana for Channel, pay 12 life for Colossus (Sphere) (20-2)
Draw, since if Colossus swings, Factory will kill

If R goes first:
R: Mox/Mishra/Sphere
X: Grove
R: 20-18
X: counter 1
R: 20-16
X: counter 2
R: 20-14
X: counter 3
R: 20-12
X: Doesn't have enough life for colossus, can't live the 9 turns for Grove to play it

TMD 6 vs MTGNews 1
Your results: 0-6 MTG
My results: 2-2
If Jacob drops Bridge, I either do nothing (draw) or drop Deciever and start attacking while he has 1 card in hand. Then, if he drops Tongs, I can't attack anymore. If I Disk, I lose the Deciever and it's a tie.
If he drops Tongs first, I Disk it and lay Deciver, but Bridge keeps it from attacking

TMD 7 vs MTGNews 14
Your results: 4-1 TMD
My results: 2-2
Hesitation operates, under current Oracle wordings, like Standstill, so the "Standstill Trick" works. Chimpanzee just plays his Isamaru, lets the Hesitation trigger go on the stack, and responds by Dazing his own Isamaru. The Hesitation will retrigger, then sac to counter the Daze instead of the Isamaru. Then, it's 2/2 vs Factory standoff.

TMD 8 vs MTGNews 2
Your results: 6-0 TMD
My results: 4-1 TMD
If Lone goes first:
L: Mox/Factory/Realist
A: Pit
L: 20-17
A: Counter 1
L: 20-14
A: Counter 2
L: 20-11
A: Counter 3
L: 20-10 (Does NOT attack with Factory)
A: Casts Pox. In response, L activates Factory. A loses (10/3 = 3.33 round up 4 life) L loses 7 life. (13-6). Creature sacrifices come before Land sacrifices on Pox, so Factory is sac'd as a creature before land needs to be sacrificed. Realist lives. A discards Spirit.
L: 13-5 (realist swing)
A: Spirit returns. Realist cannot swing into untapped Spirit, b/c it will die. However, Realist only needs 5 swings to win, while Spirit needs 7. Thus, Spirit will not swing.

TMD 9 vs MTGNews 1
Your results: 2-2
My results: 6-0 TMD
Starke can kill Deceiver and Karakas back for the kill, it can kill the Disk and Karakas back for the kill. And it's faster than both. Win for Starke.

TMD 10 vs MTGNews 1
Your results: 0-6 MTG
My results: 6-0 TMD
Factory is a faster clock than Deciever, and cannot be stolen by Deciever. Disk could get rid of Factory, but whenever it hits the table, Serenity will follow, and Factory will remain a land until Serenity goes off.

TMD 10 vs MTGNews 2
Your results: 6-0 TMD
My results: 2-2
Serenity has the capability to kill the Mox, but whenever Serenity hits the table, Realist will follow, killing Serenity before it can kill the Mox. Then, it's a creature stalemate.

TMD 10 vs MTGNews 3
Your results: 6-0 TMD
My results: 4-1 TMD
If Dusk_ goes first:
D: Workshop/Metalworker
BJ: Ruins
D: Smokestack
BJ: Serenity
D: Counter on Smokestack
BJ: Serenity will destroy all artifacts, but Smokestack will force BJ to sac either Ruins or Factory. Then, D will have nothing, but BJ will have no active creatures, creating a draw.

TMD 12 vs MTGNews 3
Your results: 2-2
My results: 0-6 MTG
If Dusk_ goes second:
L: Taiga/Lumberjack
D: Workshop/Metalworker
L: Muse
D: (20-17) Smokestack
L: Swing (20-13)
D: (20-10) Counter on Smokestack
L: Sac Lumberjack, swing (20-7)
D: (20-4) Decline counter on Smokestack, sac Workshop
L: Sac Muse
D: Sac Smokestack, swing with Metalworker for win

TMD 12 vs MTGNews 10
Your results: 0-6 MTG
My results: 6-0 TMD
The opponent chooses which creature Preacher takes, so Lumberjack will be stolen, but Muse can win without attacking.

TMD 13 vs MTGNews 10
Your results: 0-6 MTG
My results: 2-2
Preacher will be given the Tangle Asp. If the Asp attacks, Vigilante will kill first. If Asp does not attack, neither will Vigilante, so it is a tie.

-Goblinboy

damn time difference between UK and California

The thread for War of the Worlds is now up on MTGNews as well.

Don't forget, r_x_666, you can't submit to both boards!

-Goblinboy

Okay, consider this post not as trying to convince you to unban Lotus (you guys are this forum's regulars, Its your call) but rather defending my choice of unbanning it on mtgnews.


Actually, comparing our two lists, we have a balanced environment, like yours, and these are the cards that are on our list that aren't on yours:
Form of the Dragon
Glacial Chasm
Show And Tell
The Double-Discards

Chasm has nothing to do with Lotus, its doing very well over here, too. Form of the Dragon is slightly sped up by Lotus, but it was doing well in decks that were Lotus-less (and, of course, Lotus/storage land is actually slower in playing Form than Storage Land/Show and Tell). Show and Tell is a direct result of Lotus being unbanned, yes (in fact, I banned it as I unbanned Lotus) but I think it was a fair tradeoff.
The double-discard spells are just too powerful in an environment like this one. You agree that two-mana ones are too good, since you have Hymn and Forget banned, and while you don't have the three-mana ones banned, looking at 3CB #41, I didn't see anybody playing with them. Its not like we had to ban any previously playable discard spells because we allowed Lotus.

Actually, the list of stuff that you have banned because Lotus is banned is lengthly as well: Evil Presence, Sea's Claim, Encroach, Raze, Lion's Eye Diamond (kinda).  


Such as what? Looking at 3CB #41, I see a very similar list as to what I normally see on mtgnews.


This is a founded fear. I was afraid this would happen when I unbanned it. However, if you look at the latest mtgnews 3CB (#61), only 4 of the top 10, and 6 out of the whole 17 players used Lotus. It is far from dominating.



Agreed. Your post changed my stance. I think its actually good that TMD has Lotus banned, just for variance's sake at the least.
This post was just defending my actions. In 3CB, even moreso than in real Magic, powerful cards can be overcome through metagame choices, no matter how small.  Lotus is a powerful card, but you've got to have powerful cards in any format, and this is one that doesn't dominate. By no means is it even as powerful as Mishra's Workshop (though it is slightly more played).

-Goblinboy

Actually, more specifically, the ban could be on *decks* that cause double-or-more discard. That also takes care of Distress-Duress Mise decks (although they would never win the mise, since they would lose instead of tie when going second)

You were talking about Lotus-Mind Twist being a mise. Let me point out that Swamp-Dark Ritual-Mind Twist does the same thing.

But nevermind though. If the TMD regulars don't like Lotus, then I'll stop trying to convince you.

-Goblinboy

Sorry, I meant other stuff when I was talking about Peat Bog. I structured that part of the post badly. How about Swamp then? Turn 1 Duress, turn 2 threat works about the same as turn 1 Duress turn 1 threat.

Oh, Mind Twist isn't banned. Yeah, that could have an effect on how good Lotus is I've just seen all double-discard spells banned as a sweep and that works well.

-Goblinboy

One vote for yes!

The unbanning of Lotus really only means that Show and Tell needs to be banned.
Mid-to-low discard is still fine. If the discard costs 2 or 1 mana, then you can do nearly the same thing now with Peat Bog. If it costs 3 mana, then you have the choice of either running nothing BUT the discard spell (which would do nothing but draw the game) or play Priest of Gix, which, while Lotus/Gix/Coercion is a fairly strong deck, it's not so good that it would need banning (and it sucks going second)

It allows people to play 3-mana spells that aren't artifacts without having to rely on the slightly-too-slow storage lands. Its use is tempered by the fact that you can't use it with spot removal (if they don't play the thing you need to kill, you can't do anything but draw the game), its hosed easily by Sphere of Resistance, Glowrider, etc., and if you want to, for example, play 2 2-mana spells, Lotus won't help you.

Black Lotus opens up the format and allows for more creativity, and it does not dominate or show up in every decklist. There are still very good reasons to run Factory/Workshop/Moxen/Duals/Storage/Depletion/etc., and people often run them in a Lotus-inclusive metagame.

And I speak from experience. Lotus = good.

-Goblinboy

Yay! the winner.

I must admit, though; I didn't come up with the deck on my own. I run 3CB over at mtgnews, and stole it from one of the participants over there. He'll never be the wiser  

-Goblinboy