Because Metalworker does NOT enable first turn lock(s), and because Oath of Druids is out there. If you can't play a lock the first turn, shuffle up and draw 6 new cards. That's why both Black Lotus and Trinisphere should be there - 1 extra lock component and mana to power it out. End of discussion.

I haven't been playing vintage in a long time because of the previous metagame which made me sick, but I've slowly resumed to active play during the last couple of weeks. Your discussion doesn't make much sense to be honest. Why waste so much space and time discussing the size of importance of YawgWill when we can all agree that Tendrils decks would never exist without YawgWill legal? Whether you call it a Tendrils or Will deck is nothing but irrelevant. Period.

Are you trying to say that Mox Monkey kills Dreadnoughts or that he should be replaced with something that does?

Excellent reply by kobefan even though Doomsday is my favorite card of all time. There're just better and less risky stuff to do in vintage nowadays. Gush is good, your restricted cards are good, but Rituals and Doomsday are of the past, it seems

Even though I'm not 100% sold on your ideas, good job on the sideboard. That's damn good service for this thread!

Excuse my not fluent English, I'm a foreigner.

Cool deck. I always loved Voidmage Prodigy, but never found the available wizards sufficient if I wanted a solid mana base also. I mean, Meddling Mage and Dark Confidant are hot, but my mana would suck. With the printing of these utility one drops, it's a different story. Good call!

I always use Misdirection in the type of decks that wants to resolve 1 bomb and practically win the game on the spot (Long and Gifts) OR in a deck that wants to resolve Ancestral Recall asap with protection from oposing pitch magic (GAT). I'm curious to hear your reasoning for its inclusion in this deck. IMO you only have Magus and Ancestral that's worth "forcing" through with Misdirection. Sure, it equals free wins against bad players who blindly put Ancestral on the stack, but against strong players I suspect REB#4 and Spell Snare#4 to perform better. Anyway, fill me in

I can't say I like the sputter. I would opt for more one-drops and play the 4th ninja. If you get ninja online turn 2 and get to untap without losing the game, you're in VERY good shape. The 4th bouncer and Magus are also worth considering. When you face a matchup where they are good, they're freaking good.

The mana base seems okay except I would play fetch #6 over a Volcanic Island. You never need a 3rd Volcanic Island. Vs. Stax you will only fetch red, if you're playing a Magus anyway. I'd say 6 fetches are enough to support Brainstorm #4, as this would set up better turn 2 plays, allow you to dig for answers and can hide "secret" disruption on top of your library when being Duress'ed (I know how you love pretending you're playing ALL available disruption in your deck ) - more often that is.

I realize there's not room for all of these changes unless something is cut. Have you tried without Vials? I'm aware that you can sneak Voidmage and Magus into play, but Vials are just such a bad top deck later on.

Thanks for your post, keep up the good work!

EDIT: I'm not sure I like the white splash, since you lose a hard counter. Hmmm, I'll edit or post a new comment when you put up your list.

Well, other decks have either FoW, Leyline and/or speed to combat the scenarios I mentioned. I'm aware these decks don't have these explosive opening every game, but it should be considered when building a deck with none of the above "answers to brokeness". Personally I would never play "Stax" without Leylines and Bazaar (to cycle potential dead cards and dump expensive stuff for Welder). I guess you abandoned the reliance on welders because of the huge amout of graveyard hate floating around, which also seems reasonable. In my opinion you need turn 0 answers in Vintage, because the retarded card Flash exists. Oh well...

You mention being on the play as an important factor. I tend to agree, but it's truly an uphill battle trying to keep Flash off enough mana to cast Flash before a Trike shows up to seal the deal. You can maybe keep Oath and Dryad from resolving for a turn or two, but considering your lock components, I just can't picture locking decks out of the game that needs 2-3 mana to operate. Is your base of lock components really sufficient?

Good night!

Sphere's are good right now, I'll give you that. I'd pair your infinite spheres with some aggro components instead of relying on already mana-hungry stuff like Trikes to finish off your opponent.

Look at your own matchup analyses and ask your self: why would I play this deck? The reason I don't like the concept is simple. The top tier decks right now need little to no mana to operate. "Land, mox, Dryad" / "Land, mox, Flash" / "Land, Mox, Oath" and "turn Bazaar sideways, dump Grave-Troll" are all almost impossible to beat for your deck. I would feel very bad taking this to a tournament, but I'm not from France. Last time I played there, people played outdated TPS, Shop Aggro and T1Tog.

Anyway, have a nice day and thanks for posting.

I disagree that playing only one Welder makes it less dead. I guess you're right, Mindslaver ends the game - at the cost of 10 mana. So does Braingeyser.

I'm just saying that in this metagame, you cannot affort to play potential (happy ?) dead cards like the two. It's all about consistency if you ask me.

Necrologia: Well, I might've overexaggerated some, but the point still stands. It's easier to kill and a 2/2 body isn't worth the risk of running into StP, Fire or whatever removal spell IMO. Especially since more and more creatures see play nowadays.

squeegee:

Magus
1) Yes, you are correct about Duress.
2) It's an actual clock.
3) It's not REB-able anyway, Swords can't be cast etc. You get my point.

Control Magic creature
1) Sure, it's a slight advantage that it cannot be Duressed away, but...
2) You just got your self a clock if you resolve Control Magic.
3) It's REB-able + if it gets killed by any creature removal, they get their creature back. The same is true for Control Magic, only 1/10 cards work against it compared.

Well, sure it's a Control Magic on legs. You make it sound like it's actually good to be a creature instead of an enchantment. It's horrible in my opinion.

First of all, I like your shell of the deck very much. I have a few comments only based on theory.

I honestly think that neither Goyf nor Grunt is anything but a beater in today's metagame. I wouldn't play any of those two.

However I would definately play 4x Teeg. If you get to resolve one, who cares if you draw another? I mean, his effect is too powerful. I can't believe he negates both Massacre and Engineered Explosives, two very well-represented mass removal spells in the format.

What I would add to the list is Demonic Consultation. It's your #5 of all your creatures, StP, Duress- AND Sphere-effects.

I don't know if I like the Vials. You really want one early on, but when you start drawing number 2 and 3, they're crap. Playing 2 will not get it often enough in your opening hand, so I'd give them the boot. On the other hand, if you start adding Wastelands, Vials seem like a must for this shaky manabase. But IMO Wastelands require Chalice and we haven't got infinite space.

Great concept. It sure will piss off some Gush-packing dudes

While I like the idea of bringing a Drain-based deck to the table, I can't figure out why you would ever put Goblin Welder and Mindslaver in the deck. As mentioned, Thirst loses a lot of power when you only play 1 Welder. That being said, I agree that welders and heavy artifact stuff are total junk and has always been. I'd say get your self a new draw engine.

What I'm saying is...why not get rid of Welder, Slaver, Thirsts and look elsewhere for posibilities? Maybe add Scroll, Fact, Gifts (maybe even Recoup, allthough it's an awful draw) and stuff like that. I haven't done much thinking about these slots, but Slaver and Welder are indeed dead cards.

Thanks for sharing the list and results.

First of all, thanks for writing the article and linking us (who looks over the boards of mtgsalvation? ). I enjoyed it a lot.

Playing stuff like Disrupt or the black discard jank you mentioned doesn't seem right if you wanna beat Gush. Moon effects on the other hand are just nuts in this metagame. It must be answered by GAT, it's a Pithing Needle (allthough an expensive one) against Ichorid and Flash will most likely fetch Tropical or Underground Sea in the early game and will there for be left with only a couple of Islands, Lotus and Sapphire for blue mana. My test sessions vs. Stax show that he isn't irrelevant here either.

With that said, I still think you should just play GAT and practice the mirror a lot instead. Play something main deck that gives you the edge and learn to play your threats/counters right. I'm considering writing a tournament report from the past Saturday where I managed to win the Denmark Nationals Vintage Trial with GAT, having played a total of 6 mirrors during the 6 round swiss followed by top 8 knockout.

Nice topic, I hope people will contribute with something relevant

/Andreas, Denmark

MirariKnight:

First of all, congratulations with your great finish and props for trying out something new at a big tourney. Needless to say, I'm very curious about your exact deck list and how the f*** you squeezed in the 4x Stifle. I think sideboarded FTK's along with a Dreadnought is the right move against goblins, good call.

It seems this deck is able hate out pretty much every deck out there. Shops should be hard, but I'm glad the Spree treated you well.

I haven't done any testing my self recently due to other duties in real life, but I'll get back on MWS with the deck soon, I hope at least.

I agree that Balance is utter crap in a deck containing more than 2 creatures. REB's and FTK's are good stuff though.

This'll be a quick comment, since I'm about to go out soon.

bebe, I like your version also and I guess it comes down to personal preference. After all, you only made slight changes and kept the concept of my original deck list. Great idea with the StifleNaught, I'll look into that later on.

About running full set of moxen: 1st turn Scroll->Force or Scroll->Recall with REB backup for turn 2 and 2nd turn Magus/Trinket/Aven are all great plays. You _need_ your disruption online in time. Remember, you're playing Fish here.

Great to have this thread active again and once again sorry for the short reply.

/Andreas

I stole some of your ideas and came up with this. It's very solid against Flash, GushStorm and GAT. The sideboard should be used to solve issues with Ichorid and opposing "aggro" decks. I love the idea of having two sets of toolboxes thanks to Trinket Mage and Merchant Scroll and decided to build the deck there after. My current list:

BEATS: 12
4x Trinket Mage (it's versatile AND kills the enemy slowly )
4x Magus of the Moon (mana bases are so bad right now + he turns sideways!)
4x Aven Mindcensor (the friggin balls in the current fetch/scroll/flash-heavy format)

TOOLBOX: 7
1x Chalice of the Void (solid disruption)
1x Tormod's Crypt (great to have around with ichorid in the format)
1x Engineered Explosives (lovely allround card, kills slivers, moxen, oath, dryads to name a few)
1x Sensei's Divining Top (if you keep a shaky hand or if you expect a long game, this card will win you games)
1x Echoing Truth (answer to Tinker and ETW)
1x Fire//Ice (basically to take out bob and welder)
1x Dominate (steals dryads)

NO WAY: 8
4x Force of Will
4x REB (you need to push the GAT and Flash matchup in your favor and these do so)

DRAW/SEARCH/BROKEN: 11
4x Brainstorm
4x Merchant Scroll (minimal drawengine makes scroll->recall very common in the early game, also fetches silverbullets or even FOF later on)
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Fact or Fiction (played TFK at first, but the 1 mana was never an issue)
1x Time Walk

MANA: 23
6x Fetch
5x Mox
1x Lotus
1x Sol Ring
3x Volcanic Island
1x Tundra (one is sufficient b/c of 6 fetches. As mentioned earlier, you can play Trinket->Lotus/Pearl under a Magus if you need W. Your opponent will not see it coming)
6x Island

Sideboard: 15
4x Leyline of the Void (FOR SURE)
Pithing Needle, Rack and Ruin, Control Magic/Threads of Disloyalty, Meddling Mage? (any suggestions?)

0x Mana Drains (it seems that with a full set of scrolls and a larger creature base, this card isn't needeed in this build. If it's the better build, i'll let you decide)
0x Pithing Needle (I guess if you suspect a lot of ichorid, this wuold make it to the maindeck)
0x Seat of the Synod (if you're short of mana, you can get Sol Ring or Lotus instead)

The deck is 61 cards right now. I played with 1 less Island, but thought I needed that extra "half" land. Might notice the difference after 10 tournaments...only all aggro decks goes to the trash can after 1

Thanks for the brilliant ideas ,
/Andreas, Denmark

Now I haven't read all the responses, but Demonic Consultaion is a must. It's your 5th Confi, Mage, FoW, Chalice etc. It's way better than Demonic Tutor in Fish.

Anyways, I don't think Extirpate will make a huge impact on Vintage. Combo players will go back to Duress and/or Xantids until the popularity of Extirpate weares off. Btw., I laughed when I saw you tweaked your mana base with shocks in order to fight Extirpate @ Underground Sea Keep it up, mate.

/andreas

You should never fool around with Meddling Mage. Name Tendrils always.

I think you did the right thing. Find that permanent blue source until it's too late plus you're still holding Force and Drain (will likely be online before Rod = bonus) for that damn Null Rod that'll ruin this hand. Mulligan is outta the question with 1st turn FoF and Force IMO.

Dude, thanks a lot. I realized that because of my favorites being displayed in IE, I wasn't able to see that "Help" link on the right. I shoud've given it more thought and not waste a post on TMD instead. I hop they answer soon, so I can get my cards. I owe you one

/Andreas

Hey guys.

First of all, I'm not even sure to put this here, but here it goes.

I made an order @ cardkingdom and submitted my address. After I pressed confirm, I realized that I typed in the wrong ZIP code, but I wasn't able to change it at that point. I thought, oh well, I'll just create a new account and reorder the cards, but unfortunately the cards were outta stock, so I didn't bother. Then I recieved an email containing PayPal info and it also displayed my address (wrong one again). I started searching the website, but no useful forum/email address appeared. So I returned the email and typed my correct address and apologized for the misunderstanding, but is that the right way to do it? It's probably not a "manual" email address, so I doubt I'll be hearing anything. So I ask you;

How do I get in contact with the guys from CardKingdom?

Thanks in advance,
/a

First of all, thanks a lot for the primer. I really enjoyed it.

However, I like your old version better (not draw7-, but Infernal Contract-fueled packing Brainstorm and bouncers in the board) and this deck won me half a Mox a few months back (thx btw. ). I've done some testing with this new version, but seemed to fizzle out "a lot". By that I mean casting a draw7, drawing into crap (not good enough to win on the spot), passing the turn and being killed by locks/infinte counters+Duress/Meddlers/whatever or having my 1st turn threat Forced and then drawing into my Forces and multiple winconditions. That's why I liked Night's Whisper in the old build. That version was of course a turn slower at times, but was able to set up for a "secure" 3rd turn and still didn't need to worry about Mana Drain/Force/Duress to take care of my only threat (full grip+Duress). I definately agreed (guess you've changed your mind ) that was the way to go for storm-combo (one-sided card draw instead of risky draw7s), but if you're kicking butt with this, it must be pretty consistent in the hands of its' creator at least.

Also, I loved the aggressive maindeck with no random answers that are getting in the way more often than they're bouncing Chalices/Spheres. I think you're way too careful in this build, trying to be able to beat everything pre-board. But then again, blue cards had to be included and there aren't many playable action-cards besides Windfall left. And about that Force vs. Duress-debate; card vs. card, of course it's better paying zero mana than 1, but IMO it will partly destroy your deck-design by forcing you to play random sub-optimal stuff and narrow answers like CoV and H.Recall.

The Contract-packing version worked very well for me, even against Stax, so I am asking you; Why did you discard the Infernal Contract as an engine for this deck? If it's because of Force of Will > Duress only, that would really surprise me.

Thanks again,
/Andreas, Denmark.

Sorry, I don't have time for reading all of your replies. I just wanted to throw the list out there, that we tested the other night. Sometimes it does broken stuff, but it sure isn't consistent. You wanna be playing an outlet and Chalice turn one and start dredging by turn two, drop a Null Rod or flash back a DA, then pass the turn. Then by turn 3-5, you wanna smash face and win the game. But, even if it would do this consistent, is this enough to make it a contender? I don't think so.

beats: 8
4x Ichorid
4x other 3/1 guys

Dredge-Engine: 9
9x unknown names

Outlets: 8
4x Careful Study
4x Putrid Imp
0x Bazaar (I think all lands in here should produce mana and Bazaar will slow the deck down way too much)

Disruption: 11
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Chalice (You have to delay your opponent at a cheap cost)
3x Null Rod (Solid turn 2 play, if Chalice isn't in your opening grip)

Draw/borken: 6
4x Deep Anal
1x Ancestral
1x Walk

Mana: 18
4x Delta
4x Coliseum
3x Sea
2x Swamp
2x Island
2x Mox
1x Lotus

Sorry for the short post and good luck,
/ANDREAS

I've done some testing with Crucible my self, but I prefer stuff like Spawning Pit, becuase of their casting cost. My team's sideboard plan for the mirror is find Tinker, search out Colossus and protect it with Duress, Force, REB and Leak. And of course we keep one copy of Oath to tutor out, if we manage to get Orchard superiority and are holding a tutor/the Oath.

I agree that Orchard and Strips will determine the winner of this mirror, if both of you keep in Oath's. I'd rather, hopefully, make some of my opponents sideboard cards dead and aim for the Tinker-plan. They might counter/Duress the wrong stuff, since they have no clue I'm going for another gameplan. This kind of mirror strategy has helped my team win a lot of important matches so far, but Cruci/Life seem interesting. If only I had the time for testing interesting stuff like that, man...

Good luck,
/Andii

@Cr0: I've played a single Rushing River in the past and it is absolutely horrible, since the chance that you can actually dig it up with an unused tutor (these tend to be played early for combopieces or Ancestral), when facing Chalice or Mage, is slim to none. And when you randomly draw it, you wish it would be some search/draw/disruption and not some narrow answer for stuff you have plenty of stuff to fight against post-board. When playing an aggressive Oath variant, you need to accept that you have to focus 100% on your own game plan in order to maximize the effenciency of the build. Keep in mind that Meddling Mages and Chalices are easily neutralize by REB and Oxidize post-board.

@Alvin: I don't like the fact that you got rid of Imperial Seal (> C.Rotation IMO) and mana sources to squeeze in Mana Leaks. I agree that Mana Leak would be great in this deck, but cannot find stuff to cut. I've tinkered with removing Tops, Mystical and a land for 4x Leaks, but losing Top means losing the little bit of consistency this archetype has left. Damn, it's really a tough call to be honest.

Merry X-mas from Denmark,
/aNdiiiii

Hmmm - Improvement Forum, ayh? Tinker -> DSC is the best wincondition for a Mono U deck running Chalice, Brainstorm and Thirst. If you aren't playing any power cards and have no proxies available, play another deck that can be competitive.


I think you are right. How could anyone besides JDizzle ever play a Vintage deck without this card? Once again, play aggro if you can't afford any power cards. U/W Fishies or some combo Goblins for instance...

Okay, I screwed up - sorry!