I never said take the jitte out in my deck I cut 1 nights whisper and the necro for 2 sword of fire and ice. That and whats the point of necro, if your playing chalice anyways so you can pay life for a card you might not even be able to cast. Because of something you have on the table. Just seems like a waste of life and time in the deck from what I gathered play-testing. That and 3 mana for this deck isn't slow dark ritual solves that.
Best part of this deck is the fiend if aether vial is on the board with 2 counters he in your hand,there not going off.

I have built this deck and tweeked it as far as I can and I found the following to be great additions:
Ogree Mauraduer(sp)
why not equip him and use it if your opponent wants to block they loose a creature or two and the jitte still gets 2 counters.
Sword of fire and ice.
great draw and on something like ogree or negator, especially negator coming in for 9 damage and you get a card.

I've been working on a deck for one of my friends for the upcoming Waterbury tournament. I keep running into problems though it just wont run right and I cant figure out why, and for the life of me can't figure out a sideboard (fully anyway's).
Here's the deck and some of my thought's.
1 Platinum Angel
1 Sundering Titan
1 Triskelion
4 Goblin Welder
4 Su-Chi

1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mindslaver
1 Memory jar

4 thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Transmute Artifact
1 Tinker
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
2 Fire/Ice

1 Grim Monolith
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Saphire
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Manavault
2 Gilded Lotus

4 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Mishra's Workshop
3 Flooded Strand
Problems:::
I dont know where to fit in DCS. I know it's nessicary to be competitive.
Can I put in mana drain it would seem to help but I dont know where to fit it in here, or at least even splash black and play duress I like to know it's ok when I drop a welder.Or is this the way the decks suppose to play, I myself have never played welder decks and to be honest very stupid with them, thats why he's playing it and I am not! As for the side board I've come up with:
1-Trinisphere
2-recoupe
3-pithing needle
9-other spots I cant figure out
Any help and critisism welcome
Thanks
Grant

Ive been working on the deck for a while here's the list
1-lotus
1-lions eye diamond
1-jet
1-sapphire
1-emerald
1-lotus petal
1-mana crypt
1-sol ring
4-chromatic sphere
1-pyrite spellbomb
1-ancestral
2-thirst for knowledge
4-brainstorm
1-tinker
4-FOW
4-duress
1-tendrils of agaony
1-demonic tutor
1-vampiric tutor
1-yawgmoth WIN
4-oath of druids
2-auriok salvagers
1-balance
1-LOA
4-delta
2-underground
2-tundra
2-tropical
4-forbiden orcard
4-wasteland
1-stripmine
Not to many problems with the deck duress is freaking awsome tried mana drain but it seems to hurt more than anything. As for no DCS no point i had more problems with it maindeck hiting it on the oath. He know lives in the sideboard. 2 thirsts for draw as well as a good pitch card to FOW and here's the board
3-swords to plowshares
1-pyrite spellbomb (both work good for meddling mage)
1-DCS
1-akroma
1-spirit of the night (Turn the deck to oath if must good confusion slide out)
3-echoing truth (Why-chalice for 0-arcane-lab-mage-mirror)
3-stifle
2-BEB
Other cards ive been thinking of trying
cutting wastes and strip add 1 of each more of the duals
and
Entomb
FOF
Intuition
Maybe cut Balance?
Go to 4 Thirsts?
ohh well some more testing and input may put me where I wanna be as for the chalice and mage hate I have found its a must they shut it down completly if needed in the match throw akroma and spirit in and play it just like oath seems to work.

Killino's Card and Coin In newhartford,ny
on seneca turnpike next to alfredo's
Saturday type 1 $6.00 entry at 1:30

Meta-Trix would win if somebody played it.

I read an artical earlier on older creature's that pretty much just belong in history now. But back when games were less controled and few to combo what did everyone else here like playing. Here's my top 5 oldschool decks.
ZOO- To many answers and just all around fun
Ermageddon- big creature byye lands I win
Kird Ape channel ball - got my attention on the love of combo
Tittania Balance- Just fun running 4 balance
Ernham burn emm- Fatties and burn LOL
"your" not "you're"[/color]

Hey I spent 48 dollars on repacks 4 weeks ago and pulled a LOA (right after I bought one LOL) but I sold it for 180. Got lucky but doubtful to happen again.

Forgetting other older cards
Kird ape
Ali from cario- Use to be huge
Avatar of woe
Ernham djinn
It's really screwed up when you look at the game now think about what decks use to be huge
Kird ape channel ball
Ernham burn emm
Ermageddon
Tittania balance
ZOO-use to love this deck still play it now and again
I almost things went back to these decks before combo and control was a factor.

It's just lately when Im playing stuff usually a duress followed by therapy cleans house before I go off. I would rather draw combo needed stuff alot of the time rather than FOW. That and when you combo off by turn 2-3 your opponent really hasn't had alot of time to get the draw engine up, that and the deck accelerates mana and a really fast pace with 28 mana sources and there's equal arifacts and rituals to land. Once you break the rector with a therapy and bargain hits's the table GAME OVER always.

For one this wasn't my power build heres the powerbuild list
Black Lotus
Mox diamond
Mox jet
Mox pearl
Mox sapphire
Lotus petal
Sol ring
Mana vault
Grim monolith
4-Cabal therapy
3-duress
1-Tendrils
1-Demonic
1-Vampiric
4-Dark ritual
1-Bargain of goodness
1-Yawgmoth-WIN
2-Donate
2-Illusions
1-Ancestral
1-Timewalk
1-minds desire BROKEN
4-Brainstorm
1-frantic search
2-FOW
4-academy rector
1-Tolarian Academy
1-Basajou
4-polluted delta
4-underground sea
3-scrubland
2-tundra
Certain things change depending on possible matchups other cards I run maindeck are
FLUCTUATION CARDS sometimes in or out depending
Duress
FOW
Stiffle
Cunning wish Depends on if i need graveyard or stiffle or red hate cards
balance- If i know alot of goblins or white weenie
Tinker and DCS- always good mainly a sideboard choice
retract in the board with wishs for desire and tendrils
Hope this helps ya a bit.

Im confused doesnt raise dead read return target creature in target graveyard to owners hand if so then i believe you cant misdirect it because the raise dead targets 2 things a graveyard and a creature same with
donate
fire part on fire/ice
Dont quote me youll have to read raise dead

#1 I would add DSC just beasty your running awall artifacts and tinker.
#2 Take the advise given earlier and runn at least 2 intuition.
#3 In my opinion I would take out the swords and seals add 3 cunning wish and you have an open spot for at least the DSC.

Id take out the  griffens and runn exaulted angel with or without confinement out she's great. Maybe add 2 mirrari's wake.

Alright if I have an acrane labratory in play and a scepter w/mana drain on it if i play a spell on my turn my opponent counters it can i still activate the scepter or does it trip the labratory????

Theres alot of reasons for the orchard look at landstill tada they never have a creature on you up-keep and if they mage there calling oath of druids not the orchard. Keepers gonna keep sitting back setting up the win getting more and more mana eventually you try and set up the win condition they mana drain everything and cast decree time walk and will and GAME OVER. Orchard gave the deck more outs better playability and its not like gemstone mine or city in the deck its far better.Like i said in the post abover the versions ive seen run alot ran 3-4 verdant touches and 4-gemstone mine or city of brass now you have a land that doesnt kill itself doesnt ping you and cut the verdant touch which was counterable and how do you counter orchard it cant be done look at the erata on stifle the token is a mana getting effect it cant be stifled just like you cant stifle gemstones loosing a counter its in response to a mana ability. The deck in this meta game just cant sit back because basically YOU DIE.

I'm just wondeirng has everybody stoped plaing this deck and if so why all I do is see the white blue version running around. I keep playing with red blue and never have a problem the deck i have the most problem with is 4c keeper but it still won me a tourny today so i cant bitch to much. Just looking for input and deck suggestions but heres my list

1-mox sapphire
1-mox ruby
1-black lotus
1-sol ring
2-mask of memory -BROKEN- please dont argue this card
3-nevy's disk
1-DSC
4-FOW
2-misdirection
2-teferi's response
3-daze
4-mana drain
1-ancestral
1-time walk
4-standstill
4-lightning bolt
4-fire ice
4-farie conclave
4-mishra's factory
4-polluted delta
4-volcanic island
4 wasteland
1-stripmine
I dont know ive played a tounament already and won no problems with the deck and mask of memeory on a factory whenever i wanted it or a conclave just ruled 1 to equip and draw 2 discard 1 as far back as i can remember i was always tought card advantage wins the game.

ive been playtesting oath for a while now and the aggro version seems to do the best with the current meta game. But as for orchard being a downfall I dont think so and I would argue that till the end of time I think it actually brought something broken to the deck. Yes it has the give your opponent a little shit token but also fills four land spots trigers the oath and it cut having to run verdant touch so you could run 4 other impotant cards like
crop rotation- love this card in the deck also for many reasons
duress-finally room without cutting away at the build
tutors-never have to many
will-BROKEN
There's just so many possibilities out there now but dont forget dont build a version you cant understand you cant win with it if you cant play it

ITs wierd un-powered i play

mana crypt
lotus petal
mox diamond
mana vault
grim monolith
sol ring
lions eye diamond
DSL
4-academy rector
4-cabal therapy
4-duress
4-dark ritual
demonic tutor
vampiric tutor
tendrils of agaony
yawgmoth bargain
yawgmoth will
4-FOW
2-donate
2-illusions
2-cunning wish
minds desire
4-brainstorm
mystical tutor
frantic search
4-pollutted delta
2-flooded strand
3-underground sea
3-scrubland
2-tundra
tolarian academy
RUN RETRACT IN THE SIDEBOARD
the decks done very well for me few tweeks could still be done here and there but for me latest ive combod is turn 5

I have to agree with everybodys advise on the shit passage. But tinker and dsc are essential to a deck like this it allows first turn ooops your fucked or later if all the togs have been killed for some various reason you can still win.

Like i said in the other post mungman is my old screen name on themanadrain.com the deckilist was almost a year and a half old currently i do have power and i run the tendrils version and without power makes no diffrence just add tinker and collossus.

I'd rather know for the same casting cost and one for less that i have 4 naturalizes or 4 oxidize, but take it with a grain of salt because when shit hits the board id like some toilet paper to clean it up with.

Does anybody know the web site address for alter-states in syracuse ny just some things i wanted to get on there and check out any help would be appreciated.

HELLO this is my old user name a year and a half ago when the decklist was made some things were not avalible and others not thought of and if you also look it was a budget build with no power i have a new list in the vintage open forum
thaks
grant

SIDEBOARD IT
NO SENSE IN PLAYING A NON-COMBO DECK WITH IT
IT JUST TURNS INTO 3 DEAD CARDS IN THE DECK OR YOUR HAND

Heres my input
Graveyard utilization GOOD
BUT WHAT IF
oath throws the will in the graveyard
will gets countered
In my opinion build around the graveyard, and build in the incase shit happens
REGROWTH
1-GAEAS BLESSING

i like the ideas but i like cloudchaser in the deck ive playtested it and when oath dumps it on the table its not counterable which is the only reason it was thought of in the deck yes i have enough artifacts and as far as power im running
emerald
saphire
lotus
recal
walk
loa

My trix deck works spectacular after puple hats input and now i need side board critisism for oath hers what i have and meta game changes alot so its hard planning for alot of something a little of something else ya know

4- arcane laratory (kills combo dead)
4- eather burst (stompy -lol- goblins oath helps by chucking some to)(mirror match shoves it in there hand)
1-tinker
1 darksteel colosus
1-phantom nashoba
1 cloudchaser eagle
3-powder keg

yeah game 3 sucked he dropped crusible turn 2 i got out 2 moxes lotus and dropped tinker and a fetch attacked with the colossus he cunning wished for swords tapping out with no fow(i duressed) and time walked for the win

Yeah this is grant i couldnt remember if it was 3 or 4 but i know there were 4 control based decks but thats a good idea im gonna have to try it out but it never even crossed my mind. Playtest time LOL.It might have to wait though ive almost got turbo nevyn back and running since they restricted gush and hurt it god bless crusible of worlds but its gonna take some fine tuning.