TBQH, two topics, only one of which involves both Dragonauts and 'Tog, doesn't seem like a "rather well-discussed topic". Second, from what I've seen in the past, most Tog decks tend to run a red splash over white or green (though with dredge opening up access to Deed, I can definitely see the green splash becoming more common). Thirdly, with Gush unrestricted, Tog seems to be building towards one explosive turn, playing a flurry of spells before turning him sideways. All three of those factors make me believe that the 'nauts can be used to some success within a Tog base. Dragonauts mimic that, in that they want a bunch of spells played before turning sideways. Sure, they don't get fat from the yard (barring flashback), but since the whole plan is to draw a shitton of cards for Tog, swinging for 3/5/lethal in the air as well isn't too bad.

Well, I run Drifts at the moment as I personally like having the extra creatures, as well as not having any sort of tutoring otherwise (my brother stole my Demonic Tutor, and I haven't gotten another yet). I really don't expect a whole lot of beats from what I've seen, but being prepared won't hurt, as well as being able to chump a dork.
Ponder, I really don't like. Sure, it stacks the deck, but the sorcery speed really, really bothers me. Sure, Nauts want stuff cast during Main Phase 1, and Tog really doesn't care, but the thought of being able to do stuff at instant speed is, IMO, better.
As for proxies, I would love to have FoWs. However, college, rent, food, and bills just kinda kick my wallet in the ass. When I actually have disposable income, I'd love to blow my money on a card game. At the moment, though, Foil fits the bill for the moment, especially since I run Daze to give me an island to pitch.

As much as it's a good card, I just can't see it being useful all of the time. Sure, it's essentially a Berserk, but what if I don't have a creature? If I take out the Drifts (or even if I only have the Drifts out), I'll have all of 5 creatures. Something that is useful on all of 1/12 of my deck just doesn't seem too good. Maybe if I ran something that could search it out, maybe, but it just doesn't look like something I'd run at the moment.

Saved and imported to MWS to test against.

That, I'll have to look in to. Of course, though, it has replicate, which I hate just on principle (the costs should have been the opposite color, dammit!). But it's a good card, so I'll have to try and get a few off someone who bought Ravnica block.

Trust me, I'm not trying to argue for the sake of argument and sound like an ass, but I've looked through the site, browsed on SCG, and dug through the Wizards board (and promptly took a shower afterwards). The most I've found regarding Psychatog and Dragonauts that looks like it might be remotely playable in Vintage is the second link you posted, and that particular list isn't exactly what I'm looking for, what with semi-dead cards like Lava Dart and Psychotic Fury. I'm not looking for The Next Big Thing, nor planning (at the moment, anyway) to try for big Vintage tourneys, but I'd like some help to build a deck that won't just roll over and die to URFishfrom2005(nowwithactualmerfolk!).dec.

It's been 3 days, 130 views, and one two-sentence-long comment is all I get? Man, I look for help in all the wrong places, apparently. Come on, people, I'd like something other than "Ya, Lava Dart = good, and so is MerchScroll". SOMETHING.

Well, the title really kinda says it all. I'm looking for ways to improve the current deck that I have now, which (barring a few proxies and such) may very well be Peasant-legal. And that makes me a sad panda.

At the moment, tonight's FNM down at the FLGS, though I believe that they pretty much switch back and forth between Vintage and Legacy. From what I've heard, the owner used to play WAYYYY back in the day, so he has more than a couple fond memories of older cards.

Anyway, being a broke-ass bastard, I really can't afford duals/tutors/not commons (at least, until I can get down to the FLGS to trade half my binder away). So if you guys could keep suggestions on the cheaper side of things, that would be way cool.

OH NO IT'S A DECKLIST
8 Island
4 Mountain
4 Swamp
4 Terramorphic Expanse
1 Lotus Bloom

1 Psychatog
4 Wee Dragonauts
4 Drift of Phantasms

4 Mental Note
4 Gush
4 Brainstorm
4 Sleight of Hand

4 Duress
4 Daze
4 Force of Will (yay for Sharpies and Sea Monsters!)
2 Fire/Ice

Super Ghetto Sideboard Choices! Obviously, I have more than 15, but I'd like to see what "general sideboard" for something like this would be.
1 Price of Progress
4 Pyroclasm
4 REB
4 BEB
1 Active Volcano
1 Flash Flood
2 Submerge
1 Interdict
X Yixlid Jailers (once I get some...)

I also have a bunch of cards that I've been thinking of running in the deck as well. Some of these were taken from another deck using just the Dragonauts that I've been playing around with, while others I just recently got, and a couple I've seen used many times in other Vintage decks with success.

Strip Mine
4 Dark Rituals
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Deep Anals
4 Opt
4 Serum Visions
2 more Fire/Ice
4 AKs
2 Think Twice
4 Echoing Truth
4 Snap
1 Gorilla Shaman
4 Lava Dart
4 Fling
4 Rift Bolt
4 Grapeshot

***********************

...To be quite honest, I really have no idea what I'm going to be facing, let alone building a deck that can hang with the big boys (or even some of the little boys) in Vintage. Unfortunately, it's not really for lack of trying, either, as I'm pretty much working solo (no team or anything). So... yeah. Any help would be cool.

That sounds like a really, really good idea, except for the fact that not everybody plays with a sideboard (i.e. Casual players). However, they don't count. Anyway, the Iron Shiek's cost idea isn't bad either, and would probably fit these cards more. Go with that.

24 hr. clock.

Sorry for not replying sooner, but I've been working my arse off.


Hey, bitch at WotC for not printing the damned things in the first place. If they did, this thread wouldn't exist. Trust me, it wasn't my first idea, and I doubt it'll be my last, but I haven't seen anything similar, so I figured "Hey, why the hell not? Get them over and done with."

On to the topic at hand, like I said in my first post, would keeping the life payment the same, but having the lands CIPT be better? I tend to agree with the arguement that they should be mirrors, and if you look back, that's what they were. I could really care less, though. If you guys figure this out before my hair greys, let me know.

Well, I changed them a bit, so if anyone has no other concerns, I'll start the 24 hour clock.

Umm, derfderf. Forgot this:

Current Wording:

Sandstone Mesa
Land
Tap, Pay 1 life, Sacrifice Sandstone Mesa: Search your library for a mountain or plains card and put it into play. Then shuffle your library.

Tar Flats
Land
Tap, Pay 1 life, Sacrifice Tar Flats: Search your library for a swamp or plains card and put it into play. Then shuffle your library.

Decaying Undergrowth
Land
Tap, Pay 1 life, Sacrifice Decaying Undergrowth: Search your library for a swamp or forest card and put it into play. Then shuffle your library.

Kelp Jungle
Land
Tap, Pay 1 life, Sacrifice Kelp Jungle: Search your library for a island or forest card and put it into play. Then shuffle your library.

Volcanic Promontory
Land
Tap, Pay 1 life, Sacrifice Volcanic Promontory: Search your library for a mountain or island card and put it into play. Then shuffle your library.


Changes
-Names (Alfred)
-Life payments increased (Ephraim)
-Life payments decreased again

Dang it, Wizards needs to print these. Heck, they should've done that already.  

{Red/White Fetchland}
Land
Tap, Pay 1 life, Sacrifice ~this~: Search your library for a mountain or plains card and put it into play. Then shuffle your library.

{Black/White Fetchland}
Land
Tap, Pay 1 life, Sacrifice ~this~: Search your library for a swamp or plains card and put it into play. Then shuffle your library.

{Black/Green Fetchland}
Land
Tap, Pay 1 life, Sacrifice ~this~: Search your library for a swamp or forest card and put it into play. Then shuffle your library.

{Blue/Green Fetchland}
Land
Tap, Pay 1 life, Sacrifice ~this~: Search your library for a island or forest card and put it into play. Then shuffle your library.

{Red/Blue Fetchland}
Land
Tap, Pay 1 life, Sacrifice ~this~: Search your library for a mountain or island card and put it into play. Then shuffle your library.

Now, should they be similar, yet different (i.e. have the fetched land CIPT)? Also, what about names? I'd do them myself, but they'd end up sucking horribly...

Yeah, I took the Ed Beard deck, threw in Nicol Bolas (wh00t! :rock:), and tweaked the deck with the available cards, and got this:

Bolas Rocks your Face.dec
//Mana for me.
. 9 Mountain
. 6 Island
. 5 Swamp
. 4 Crosis' Catacombs
//No mana for you.
. 4 Aven Fogbringer
. 4 Avalanche Riders
. 4 Rain of Tears
//Hand? What hand?
. 4 Ravenous Rats
. 1 Nicol Bolas
//You mean my hand?
. 3 Raven Familiar
. 2 Mind's Eye
. 1 Mental Discipline
//Red burny-type stuff
. 4 Volcanic Hammer
. 4 Shock
. 3 Lava Axe
. 2 Viashino Cutthroat

Kinda off topic, but that is some funny stuff.

On topic...
a) It needs to be a creature. Even if it's a 0/1, it should at least be able to take a hit. Heck, make a 0/2 or 0/3, as it ~should~ be able to take a decent hit if need be.
b) Lower the mana cost for the activation. As it is right now, you're spending 3 mana and 3 turns (1 due to summoning sickness, 1 for a charge counter, one to use it) just to make your bobos unblockable (against a mono-colored deck) for 1 combat phase. Seems like there's quite a bit of investment for something decent, but not mind-blowing. Perhaps make it "3 or , Remove a counter, T:", as white is supposed to be getting combat tricks like this, and protection is definitely a white thing.
and c) If you don't use Ephraim's flavor text, find a better name.

Back with a little bit of testing, mostly goldfishing (as I don't quite have a team yet ), and here's the results:

- Time Walk is out for the moment. It just seems like a win-more card most of the time. Yes, it can be nice to drop, and another turn isn't so bad, but it just doesn't feel right in the deck right now.
- Isochrons are out for the moment. I know they would seem like they fit, but they just seem weird when I play. More testing on the Chronic to come.
- Meddling Mage is in. F'in love him. Especially when I can figure out what I'm playing against within the first turn or so, and name the card that hurts the most. After that, it's just a slow roll to the win.
- Damping Matrix is in in a heartbeat. Seeing as how I have nothing that could be neutered by it, I figured, "Why the F not? It's pretty damn good against the rest of the field, and with a deck this janky, I need help."
- Miscalculation is in. I want another counter, as I don't think that Force and Drain will hold, but this pulls double duty, being an early-game counter and late-game card drawer. I'm liking it a lot.

As it stands right now, it's looking kinda beat, but I like it. As for metagame, I'm using Kerz' March Gauntlet to playtest, trying to rope in a couple of my friends to be the unlucky victims of my mind games. So far, no go. Ah well...

It looks like it would be very annoying, but with the only way to kill being Raise the Alarm, it seems unlikely that you'd win unless you get the lock set up. Also, a game against a heavy counter deck looks bad for you in that you have few threats and no counters of your own. Why splash if you're only going to use Time Walk and Ancestral? It just seems like a waste of space to me.

Re Encroach: I dunno if it was discussed either, but it looks to me to be a very narrow card, really only useful if you go first. It may be better than Duress, but it doesn't appear to be on paper.

You guys bring up a lot of good points, and I think I could stand to use bits and pieces of your tech to improve. I had actually forgotten about Pikula as well, so that would be something to try and work in.

Moat and Morphling, though, seem kinda outdated, and I dunno if they'd work. I'll try them out, but I don't think they'll work as well as what I have now. Thanks for actually taking the time to look this over, and I hope I can get some more testing done with these changes.

First, a decklist.

//Mana - 25
   4 Tundra
   4 Adarkar Wastes
   4 Flooded Strand
   1 Island
   1 Plains
   4 Wasteland
   1 Strip Mine
   1 Library of Alexandria
   1 Mana Crypt
   1 Sol Ring
   1 Black Lotus
   1 Mox Pearl
   1 Mox Sapphire
//Kill Conditions - 5
   3 Decree of Justice
   2 Exalted Angel
//Counters - 8
   4 Force of Will
   4 Mana Drain
//Draw - 6
   4 Brainstorm
   1 Ancestral Recall
   1 Fact or Fiction
//Removal - 4
   3 Swords to Plowshares
   1 Balance
//Utility - 9
   3 Cunning Wish
   2 Stifle
   2 Damping Matrix
   1 Mystical Tutor
   1 Time Walk
//Sideboard
{to be tweaked post-playtesting}

Ok, I don't have too long to post an elaborate reply at the moment, but I'll try...

Personally, I like Blue/White. I have since the old CounterPost days. This is an attempt to bring /{W} control to the current Type One. The current decklist is heavily based off Zherbus' current Keeper build in the Type 1 forum, but I wanted to stick to straight /{W}. Since I haven't tested yet (but plan to by the end of next week, work schedule providing), I don't know how the deck works at the moment, nor do I have cards to fill the remaining 3 spots in the deck. Once I can sit down and work on it, I suppose I could hammer something out, but in the meantime, any possible suggestions would be appreciated.

But dandan, White is already unable to counter White spells...  
[/obligatory whine]

Not bad, but there should be some agreement on which version to use. I like the effect of stijndon's, but with Alt. 4's CC, but that's just me, and I like broken white things . Otherwise, I think it could only be better if the enchantress mechanic was in white instead of green, but that's a whole other debate.

I might actually try and attend, if I'm not working. Although, I wonder if it would be possible to build a complete, powered deck from stuff borrowed from other people...  

Why not just re-word it to "Counter target non-white spell unless it's controller pays an additional W"? It becomes more like a white [card]Mana Leak[/card] then. Heck, you could make them pay WW if it floats yer boat, just to make sure they're playing white. I saw where you were coming from with the 'unless white mana etc...', but like someone said, book-keeping on whether someone used white mana to pay for a spell is a pain in the ass, so just restricting the counter to non-white spells keeps in with the whole flavor of 'White is good' as well as 'White taxes the hell outta you'.

Regardless, I think this is a great idea. Hell, I want to see Wizards print this. That way, maybe there would be a few more white-based decks in T1...

Ok, I know this is going to sound weird, but bear with me.

What about running Intruder Alarms with the Welders? The way I see it, each tine a Ravager comes into play via a Welder, it gains the counters from another Ravager on it's way out, as well as the normal one it would gain.* With the Alarm in play, the Welder untaps and you just get a huge-arse Ravager.

By running blue, you'd have access to the Broken Blue as well as Tinker, which isn't such a bad thing. Then again, this idea is just something I thought of out of my arse, so feel free to disregard it if you wish.

*This would work, I think, as the Ravager's counter-moving ability would go on the stack after the resolution of the Welder's effect. Since the new Ravager is in play when it resolves, it could be a legal target for the counters in theory. If I'm wrong, then this whole idea is shot to hell.

Because I wanted to test it. And the pic's phat.

@jp:
Now, is there any way that one could change the base of Parfait to still keep the same idea (i.e. a White-heavy controllish deck) but not have the drawbacks of Parfait?

Before I get to a decklist that I'm tinkering around with, I gotta seriously question the viability of the deck in the first place. Looking over Kerz' gauntlets, both March and Jan.-Feb., he doesn't even mention Parfait in passing. I may seem a little overzealous to defend Parfait, but for a deck that was around longer than many of the top-tier decks today, should people really blow it off as much as they do?

Now, I dunno whather or not this deck may change people's minds, and I doubt that it's going to T8 Dulmen any time soon, but with enough working, we could have something here. This particular deck is built around K-Run's Evil Parfait from January, but I took out the black because I personally dislike the whole three-color deal. However, should Parfait go three-color, or stay two-color to be more adaptable?

Mana (19)
2 [card]Plateau[/card]
2 [card]Mountain[/card]
8 [card]Plains[/card]
1 [card]Mox Pearl[/card]
1 [card]Mox Ruby[/card]
1 [card]Mox Diamond[/card]
1 [card]Chrome Mox[/card]
1 [card]Mana Crypt[/card]
1 [card]Sol Ring[/card]
1 [card]Black Lotus[/card]

Threats (6)
2 [card]Goblin Charbelcher[/card]
2 [card]Blood Moon[/card]
2 [card]Goblin Trenches[/card]

Defense (18)
4 [card]Swords to Plowshares[/card]
4 [card]Orims Chant[/card]
2 [card]Thunderstaff[/card]
2 [card]Zuran Orb[/card]
2 [card]Seal of Cleansing[/card]
1 [card]Humility[/card]
1 [card]Karmic Justice[/card]
1 [card]Balance[/card]
1 [card]Rule of Law[/card]

Drawing/Tutoring (19)
4 [card]Scroll Rack[/card]
3 [card]Land Tax[/card]
3 [card]Tithe[/card]
3 [card]Argivian Find[/card]
2 [card]Eternal Dragon[/card]
2 [card]Gamble[/card]
1 [card]Enlightened Tutor[/card]
1 [card]Burning Wish[/card]

Wishable Stuffs (Varies due to meta)
SB: 3 [card]Cleansing Meditation[/card]
SB: 2 [card]Slice and Dice[/card]
SB: 2 [card]Replenish[/card]


-=Card Discussions=-
Charbelcher - This is seeing more and more play in Parfait decks, and I'm including it here as well, because it just works. I like it in builds that slash red more, though, as there's always the chance to double damage. It is, IMO, a card that MUST be countered.

Trenches - Parfait ran Sacred Mesa back in the day, though some saw the synergy with Land Tax and Trenches. I would still go that route over the more accepted Isochron/Raise the Alarm, as there is still synergy.

Thunderstaff - A new toy from Darksteel, it's along the lines of Orim's Prayer, negating any attack when a Humility's active. It also acts as a Glorious Anthem/Crusade, so when/if you want to go on the offensive, you can. Besides, the picture's fraggin' awesome, so I want to see how it works.

Rule of Law - Shuts down combo fast. I forsee that this could be used effectively against control as well, as it only gives them 1 counter a turn.

Eternal Dragon - Like Tithe, he can search for dual-lands, but can also recur, and swing late-game just in case. Yey.

Gamble - The discard is some bad, but the whole "search for any card" is some real good, I hear. It has worked in the past, but I still need to test it heavily. They might be taken out.

Burning Wish - This is great, as it allows me access to all kinds of stupid stuff I typically want to run, but can't.

I'm looking for more than just discussion on my deck, I really want to know if it would be worth it to continue to work of Parfait, or if it's a dead cause. Thanks in advance for reading through this drek.

You know, your other topic on this EXACT SAME DECK got locked because you gotta post more than just a decklist. Funny thing, people actually might help you if you give them an idea of what in the Nine Hells you're trying to do.

Hey, guys. I was wondering, exactly, how one would go about making a team for Magic. Are there forms to fill out, do I need sponsors, how many people do I need to rope together, does it cost money to start a team, etc. Any help on this subject would be appreciated.

Most of the time, when people talk about teams, they mean usually regional groups that get formed mostly for playtesting purposes.  The only kind of teams that get any kind of sponsorship are some pro teams.[/b]

Flavour-wise, though, it doesn't work for artifact creatures.
"Yeah, I'll make your Ornithopter have.. punctured.. organs?  " Not saying it couldn't, but it sounds weird.

Sorry for not posting sooner; I really cannot get online during weekends.

Origamist: Hey, sorry for sounding like an ass. I was still kinda hung over from a really bitchin' party the previous night, and I guess you just kinda rubbed me the wrong way.

As for your decklist, I do see where you're going, as well as why, and I like it (although I'm not sure what format that is). I'm also mentally goldfishing with Razor's deck, and that doesn't seem to be too shabby, either. The Ifh-Biff is just some old-school goodness, and it looks like it could cause some heavy damage.

---

Now that I'm looking it over, I do see where Origamist is coming from, in that Well + Words IS slow, so maybe the deck could be built around the Serra Avatar ( X_X ). Like I said in the original post, something kinda like Wakefield's old Secret Force deck, but geared towards dropping a huge Avatar instead of the Verdant.

Overall, though, there's a couple of interesting ideas floating around here, and it'll take me a bit to sort through them and piecemeal together another decklist. Oh well.

...

 

Ok, so I missed that. And it's pretty good. AND it gains you life, in addition to re-drawing. I = Owned.

Right on the nose.


Damn skippy. That's why I posted it here, to get some feedback and see how it could be improved.


It won't. Not at all. Then again, I don't build for powered metagames (hence the "unpowered" in the title), so I'm not exactly looking to beat the decks listed in the Top 8 at GenCon or Dulmen. I just want to see if this could be improved, at all, into something formidable.

However, all you have done was point out flaws and not provide ANY positive reworkings whatsoever. Thank you for wasting both my time and yours. Have a nice day.

Looking through the Starcity articles, I saw mention of the combo Words of Worship and Well of Lost Dreams in a Type 2 deck. Being the random tweak that I am, I racked MTGPics for a card that could turn life to mana.

Funny how Channel fits the bill nicely...

OMGChannelCanDoTHAT??.dec  
//Mana (24)
12 Forest
8 Plains
4 Windswept Heath

//Combo (9)
4 Well of Lost Dreams
4 Words of Worship
1 Channel

//Lifegain (19)
4 Heroes' Reunion
4 Nourish
4 Spirit Link
4 Renewed Faith
4 Armadillo Cloak
3 Exalted Angel

//The Kill (7)
4 Ageless Entity
3 Test of Endurance

Card Analysis
Heroes' Reunion/Nourish
Both gain a lot of life for very little investment, but do cost quite a bit to draw with the Well. Rather obvious choices, IMO.

Renewed Faith
A more expensive Nourish, in this deck it basically says "3W: Gain 2 life and draw 3 cards." Not exactly Ancestral Recall, but not too shabby nonetheless.

Spirit Link/Armadillo Cloak
Self-explanatory. Expecially fun when dropped on the Angel, they work well with the Entity also.

Exalted Angel
Well DUH. A 4th turn flying beater that gains me life is ALWAYS a good thing.

Ageless Entity
In this deck, he'll get really big, really fast. Slap on a Cloak, and now he doubles in size, and tramples.

Test of Endurance
Just in case I need to (i.e. Entities/Angels are removed), I can put my heaps of life to good use (besides Channel).


Also, now that I think of it, this deck does have the possibility to be tweaked around to be more of a G/w Secret Force-style deck, but that's probably just me. Anyway, I would like to see what someone else can come up with, and maybe see that I wasn't the only one to think of something like this.

Like the topic says, there seems to be a lot of cards that cause you to discard, and a lot of them see/have seen play over the years, but exactly what is there to avoid it? Counters(which could be used on better spells), Anti-targetting (which usually doesn't come cheap*)...

As for specific cards geared against being discarded or gain benefits for being discarded, we have... Dodecapod.   Going through the colors, I kinda figured out that White was the color of protection (in all of .5 seconds). After I decided on the color, all the while being kinda tweaked out at about 11:30 last night, I scribbled this down...

Payback's a Bitch
WWW
Enchantment
During your upkeep, pay WW or destroy ~this~.
If a spell or ability an opponent controls causes you to discard ~this~ from your hand, put it into play instead of putting it into your graveyard.
If a spell or ability an opponent controls causes you to discard from your hand, your opponent must discard an equal number of cards from their hand.

Looking back on it with a clearer head (and a bit of a hangover ), I see now that I was kinda inspired by this Magi-Nation card and this Yugioh card. But hey, that's not a bad thing, is it?

As far as I can remember, the upkeep is there so non-white decks do get one use out of it, but then lose it. Yeah, it seems kinda narrow, but Serum Powder's narrow as well, and that's going to print, so meh. Besides, I figured that it would be somewhat useful considering that nearly every deck I see here splashes Black for Duress.

Anyway, think of it what you will, and post away.

Matt: Ok, no big.
Jake: Done.

Since the cycle was removed, I'd say restart the 24 hour clock. If there are any problems, speak up now.