I guess someone must have hacked the TMD account of Steve and is posting some highly judgmental, boastful and arrogant posts...

I believe this card almost wins the game by itself against shop.

First, it is a control magic rather than a destruction, which means a +1/-1 rather than just a -1.

Second, it is a reusable control magic. Shop player have to adress it right now through attack - or through revoker - if it does not want to hold all his threats in hand so they cannot be used against him. In a sense, it has a worst consequences than an active smokestack on board - if left unmolested, it will use your existing board against you and as long as it is on board, I cannot really play my best permanents to change this as I know they will turn against me soon. So I hold them in hand until I find a solution to this situation.

Then, as it is also a solution to tinker in blue decks, I believe it can easily replace some "main cards" that are usully used against shop or against tinker in most decks.

Finally, the first ability to do a careful study every turn can also be enough to break the blue mirror. Sure, this is not as strong as having a Jave on board. But it is cheaper and I believe once on board, it may be enough to create a tremendous difference in terms of card quality.

Considering that on top of that, some deck will also find ways to use the discard capabilities, it sounds to me that this will be either a very good "anti shop anti tinker" card - 1of or 2 of in blue decks - or a key component  4of in some decks also abusing the drill/discard ability.

I think this guy may find a place in a Storm deck.

First, it offers an interesting solution to the "Mindbreak trap"+"flusterstorm" weakness of those decks. It turns an "all in situation" into an "backed-up situation". If the "Empty the warrens" or the "Tendril" get "mindbreaked" or "flusterstormed", this thing recycles your storm and attack for the win.
In a sense, having this guy on the board before chaining spells is quite a strong guarantee to go for the win, whatever the opponent may have in hand in terms of counter. It may replace the duress effect in a storm deck.

Then and against the shop, other weakness of storm decks, It may be interesting to turn each of my spells - which are not especially hard to cast but hard to chain - into permanent +2/+2, and try to win the fight on the ground through creature combat phase. Not ideal but could work with the right configuration.

Just my 2 cents

Posting mistake - post removed

Sure, true, but being the first does not make it playable.

Even as a 2/2, I think it would have been pretty bad for this mana cost and this ability. So as a 1/3...

IMO, this could be an interesting side card for a "classical" blue deck, for the mirror or against turbo tezz.
Let s keep in mind that it ony affects opponent!

Very nice report, thanks!

According to the organizers, the pre registration are now over 300 for the Vintage Tournament (and 500 for Legacy) !!!

Congratulations to them! Again, this year, this event will be the most important Vintage Tournament Worldwide!

Congratz to Ruben!

I have to say that this Gush/REmora list is pretty intriguing. There are some choices that are definitely not obvious - Vendilion Clique, Tendrils-No vault-key, 4 Mindbreak, ...

I would like Ruben to tell us more about this build and his choices.

Anyway, congratz to Ruben

Yep... was not so sure about that tip...
Hopefully, this is not really decisive in this build.

This report is excellent, well written and pretty funny. Clearly made me smile. Thanks for sharing.

This card does nothing better than any dedicated card (bounce or destroyer) but it does a lot in one single card. I can definitely see it being played in Vintage because of its versatility. Perhaps even not only in oath, where it is obviously pretty interesting.

Being able to destroy any permanent - land included - is definitely a good main deck solution to many situations (this card is definitely not a sideboard card IMO). In each of these situations, there could be a better option, but as a single solution to all those situations, this is pretty good.

There may even be some trick with you destroying one of your own permanent to get the token. Sometimes, it will be better to lose a permanent and get an instant token - for instance to block+kill an attacking creature - than just destroy a permanent and give a token to opponent.

Definitely a very versatile card (kind of "Terrastodon" versatile). I love it!

I have always found Esperzoa sub optimal. For instance, when i ask to myself the question "would I use Esperzoa if it wasn't for the blue count", my answer is "no".

With this new card, my answer would be "yes". 

Could be. One of the biggest pb of blue aggro shop is the number of blue cards, to support fow.
Before this card, you had :
- Master of Etherium,
- Fow,
- Ancestrall, Timewalk, Tinker (+ potentially mystical),

That's only 11-12 cards. To reach the 18, more or less the minimum number of blue cards necessary to support fow, one could add some Thoughcast, but this was still not sufficent (or you had to make suboptimal choices).

Perhaps now you can go with 4 master, 4 fow, 4 phyrexian metamorp, 4 Thoughcast, Ancestral, Time Walk, Tinker. This is 19 cards, sufficent to support fow. 

That was my first reaction. With this card, perhaps this blue shop deck can be viable, supporting fow without having to put suboptimal blue card in it.
With 4 Master of Etherium, 4 fow, 4 of those and Ancestrall/TimeWalk/Tinker, that's already 15 blue cards. Just a few of them are missing in order to really get a nice blue basis (perhaps the 4 thoughcast can make it).

Anyway, I will surely go back to testing my blue shop deck, that already got improved by Mox Opal and which now could become an interesting new option thanks to this new tool.

After testings and adjustments, here were the conclusions that I came to :

- The wastelands effects were really not that exciting. Deck are so well prepared to fight MUD, that those 3 waste effects, without sphere, are really not decisive. Moreover, with the full set of City of traitor, playing a wasteland and losing the 2mana land is a pretty poor tempo play.

- The tangle wire and the thorn were excellent. This is a small disruption package but combined with the lodestone, this is often sufficent to slow down a little bit your opponent , just a little bit but very often just what is necessary.

- Senseis were good but I often faced situation where I would have prefered them to directly be threat, instead of way to search for threats.

- Still helkite is excellent, especially combined with greaves.

- I missed sometimes Metalworker's capacity to produce huge amount of mana,


So I went back to the blackboard, trying to adjust my build in order to take into account those observations. Here is what I came with, which has IMO a very good balance between speed, small protection and consistency.

---------------- Fred Astaire V1.2 --------------------------------------------
// Lands
    4 Mishra's Workshop
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    1 Tolarian Academy

// Creatures
    3 Metalworker

    4 Lodestone Golem
    4 Kuldotha Forgemaster

    3 Steel Hellkite
    2 Myr Battlesphere
    1 Sundering Titan
    1 Blightsteel Colossus

// Spells
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Vault

    3 Voltaic Key
    3 Grim Monolith

    4 Lightning Greaves
    4 Tangle Wire
    4 Thorn of Amethyst

    1 Time Vault
    1 Memory Jar

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////

// Sideboard
4 Precursor Golem (maybe something else could be better against null rod deck)
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Chalice of the Void (good against any aggro/control deck, relying on 2CC creature, also good if you are on the play game 2 or game 3 against combo)
3 x XXX

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Some remarks :

- 3 metalworker seems to be the right number in this build. With the 3 grim and the 3 voltaic, this is a nice package to consistently power out turn 2 a big threat.
- The "big robots team", made of 3 SteelHelkite+2 Myr Battlesphere+1 Sundering+1 Blighsteel, is smoother when it comes to the mana curve.
- The 4 Greaves are really excellent : in this deck, those are 1/2 timewalk. One has to try them to understand how interesting they are.
- Memory Jar comes back in the deck given that metalworker is there. Note that with greaves, the activation of Jar is often gg.

To conclude, testings are really good, with nice results against Blue Combo and Shop. Definitely an interesting build to try.

Nicolas

EDIT : some funny tricks/moves
- think about the "skip a turn/untap" abaility of timevault. Thanks to tangle, this is sometimes "more or less" a free turn, especially if opponent has 4 or less permanent when you play tangle,
- you can use the voltaic key to untap a myr token, to extra pump Myr Battlesphere (well, i think you can...),
- keep in mind that you can tap your mana in upkeep in resp to tangle and untap after grim at the end of upkeep,

- against deck with a combo/mode, when you hesitate between playing tangle and playing a threat, if the other move does not win the game, just play tangle (most of the time it will be the right choice)
- against counters, always play time vault first : opponent is likely not to counter it to wait for key, you have 3 of them,
- against artifact destroyer, keep vault in hand and wait for the right spot to play the combo in one signle turn,
- use tangle to protect kuldotha ability. Exemple : turn 2 you play kuldotha, turn 3 you play tangle and pass the turn instead of using kuldotha ability, end ofopponent's turn, use kuldotha sacrificing tangle for blighsteel for instance, Turn 4 you attack,
- keep in mind that greaves not only gives haste, it also gives shroud. This may be a nice protection against opponent welder or natural's claim for instance,
- if it feels urgent to win (or not to lose), do not hesistate playing memory jar aggressively, even if you need to tap metalworker to power it out. It is sometimes the right play not to wait a turn. Indeed, cracking memory jar could give you a key to untap metalworker and go crazy, or just find some more mana accelerators to play most of your hand.
- do not keep a hand with only city of traitor,

- in most of the matchup, you are the aggressor : go for the win and do not fear opponent counters or anti artifact, delaying will not help you,
- trust your deck when it comes to drawing big mana producers (with 13 lands, 3 grim, sol ring, mana crypt, mana vault, 3 metalworker + potentally the 3 keys, there is a good chance that you wil draw the mana you need),
- keep faith : the deck has a pretty good ability to top deck huge bomb. And thanks to greaves, lot's of top deck can be devastating, bringing you back in the game or just winning on the spot.

You are not missing anything, I wrote the wrong card name. I meant "Relic" and not "Nihil"

After further testings, I made some ajustements :
- As suggested by several member of TMD, I introduced a small but effective disruption package : 2+1 waste effect, 4 thorns, 4 tangles (+the 4 lodestone),
- I increased the number of sensei which strengthen the consistency of the build (+ they are interesting with voltaic or even with forgemaster),
- I reduced the forgemaster toolkit, cause I noticed that I always go and search for blightsteel or time vault. Steel Hellkite has a good synergy with greaves but it could also be a duplicant.

Remark : i didn't pick chalice cause with so many 1CC and 2CC cards in this deck, it is difficult to set it up quickly without cutting lots of your own cards.

I feel that this is the right amount of disruption, slowing down a little bit the opponent's gameplan in order to relatively speed up my combo game plan. I like this new build which is more consistent and still pretty fast :

---------------------------- Fred Astaire V1.1 ----------------------------
// Lands
    4 Mishra's Workshop
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    2 Wasteland
    1 Strip Mine
    1 Tolarian Academy

// Creatures
    4 Lodestone Golem
    4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
    4 Myr Battlesphere

    1 Steel Hellkite
    1 Blightsteel Colossus

// Spells
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Vault

    3 Grim Monolith
    3 Voltaic Key
   
    3 Sensei's Divining Top   
    3 Lightning Greaves   
   
    4 Thorn of Amethyst
    4 Tangle Wire

    1 Time Vault
   
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The deck still doesn't like null rod, but the matchup against other builds is improved (especially against blue decks).

When it comes to the sideboard, I definitely need to consider the following matchups :
- null rod decks : some Wurmcoil Engine have to be part of the sideboard,
- oath : leyline of sanctity could be the right card
- and for sure dredge : nihil spellbomb,...

Against blue decks, I don't see any cards that would be very interesting. That a pb... Ideas?

Yep, especially knowing that 4 wastes can destroy 4 bazaar... Bazaar is really overpriced

For the time being, I don't know I just feel like it may not be necessary, opening door for new building path.
Indeed, IMO, this build may be split into 2 groups :

A) the core component of the deck, the ones that were really excellent in my testings => ~45 cards

4 Mishra's Workshop, 4 Ancient Tomb, 4 City of Traitors, 1 Tolarian Academy
7 solomoxen+mana vault
3-4 Grim Monolith

4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Myr Battlesphere
1 Blightsteel Colossus

3-4 Voltaic Key
3-4 Lightning Greaves
1 Time Vault
1 Trinisphere

B) the good cards, the other ones that were good in my testings but perhaps not necessary or not the very best choice (~15 cards)


When it comes to metalworker, I am not sure that it belongs to category A, cause I more or less always succeeded in playing my threats without worker, just with the other mana producers. That does not mean that workers is not necessary, I have to validate that point through more testings.

When it comes to lodestone, I am not sure that it belongs to category A, cause it may not be disruptive enough - as a single piece of disruption - and not brutal enough - for this combo oriented build.


So now, I am more or less back to reflexion, trying to define if there is not a better usage for those 15 slots, with 3 potential roads in mind :

1) going the "pure combo road", with more enablers or mana producers for the combo
Example of package : metalworkers, ...

2) going the "resistance road", with cards protecting the combo or helping it to be even more resistant - welder could be this kind of cards,
Example of package : some welders, some chalice, perhaps some bazaar

3) going the "disruption road", with cards slowing down opponent to speed up the combo (relatively) - lodestone being this kind of cards.
Example of package : some strip effects, thorn, lodestone, tangle

I just feel like some remarks made by posters (brassman and others) about this deck are valid : for the last 15 slots, has to focus only on one of those roads in order it to be even more efficient.

The deck is still under testings, some remarks made here makes a lot of sense.

Here are my thoughts about this deck:
- in this configuration, lodestone is good but not excellent : not brutal enough, not disruptive enough (cause not combined with the other classical shop tools)
- metalworker is perhaps not necessary,
- greaves is really the card that allows this deck to be combo fast, meaning to really be played as a combo deck. In combination with battlesphere, blightsteel or forgemaster, this really improves the build.

7 mana that cannot be paid thanks to workshop for an effect that is not even really powerfull...
IMHO, this is definitely useless and not playable.

Agree, I also came to that conclusion.


Well, precursor and wurmcoil are an attempt to mitigate the null rod weakness. Those 2 creatures can be hardacasted and may sometimes be sufficient to win against a null rod deck. But you are right, those are 2 of the 5 slots I am not sure about.
- Wurmcoil, Precusor, Sensei, Strip mine, Mox Opal

I am also trying another version of the build with 4 chalice and 1Steel Helkite in place of those 5 slots.
 

Don't know, still have to work on it. For the time being, I have been focussing on the main.

Hi all,

Spring is there, time for new builds to open out. Recently, I am toying with a funny build, a shop deck in which I put all the most efficient mana producers, in order to make it a fast and efficient combo oriented build.
Indeed, with the release of Kuldotha Forgemaster, combo oriented shops have become a reality. It is possible to build a shop/combo deck which consistently win turn 3, sometimes turn 2 or even turn 1. And the good thing about it, is that going the shop road, you can build a combo deck which is not so impacted by shop classical disruption, this shop disruption which gives such a hard time to most of the other combo builds based on classical combo mechanisms (ritual, storm, belcher, ...).  

---------------------------- Fred Astaire V1.0 ---------------------------------

// Lands x14 (only the most efficient ones)
    4 Mishra's Workshop
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    1 Tolarian Academy
    1 Strip Mine

// Creatures
    4 Metalworker
    4 Lodestone Golem
    4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
    4 Myr Battlesphere

    1 Precursor Golem
    1 Wurmcoil Engine
    1 Duplicant
    1 Blightsteel Colossus

// Spells
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Mox Opal

    4 Grim Monolith

    4 Voltaic Key
    1 Time Vault

    4 Lightning Greaves

    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Trinisphere
    1 Memory Jar

------------------------------------------------------------------

The idea is pretty simple :
- almost no disruption (except lodestone and trinisphere),
- the most efficient and brutal mana producers : 12+1 wonderfull lands, 4 metalworkers, 7 solomoxen + 1 Opal + 1 Mana vault, 4 Grim monolith,
- some very big creature dealing huge amount of damages, speed up thanks to lightening greaves,
- a strong key vault combo, thanks to the 4 key and the forgemaster to find the vault,
- a simple tool kit for the forgemaster

Some principles :
- Lands are restricted to the most efficient ones,
- The 4 voltaic become strong mana producers, in relation with the 4 grims, 1 mana vault, 1 sol ring and 1 mana crypt (plus the metalworker),
- The 4 lightening greaves are just insane! Giving haste to the forgemaster to find in the same turn a blightsteel which then gets haste and kills in the same turn, is really insane. Such a cool combo.
- The key vault combo is pretty easy to set up thanks to the 4 key and the forgemasters,
- Myr Battlesphere is fast, really fast. Damn, I like it.

Some remarks :
- Quite obvious, this deck does not like null rod. Against null rod deck, the tactic is simple : either you race them through combo, or you go for the aggro road. Let's keep in mind that 2 of those big creatures may be sufficient to win in aggro mode.
- The deck is fast => turn 3 win is common, turn 2 win is also totally feasible, turn 1 win happens.
- The deck is consistent
  - Thanks to the forgemaster, the key/vault or the blightsteel combo tactics are consistent,
  - Thanks to the significantly big creatures, the aggro/race tactic is also pretty consistent,

Well, this is a funny and brutal build. Fast enough to compete against some blue builds, "brown" enough to deal with regular shops and their disruption.  

Still under testing but definitely show some interesting results...

Nicolas

In a the blue version, Ancestrall, Timewalk and Tinker are clearly very good choice. You are right.

When it comes to Trinket Mage, it may be an option, my only concern being that :
- When you have the mana available for trinket, if you spend those 3 mana to get a skullclamp in hand, then it means you are already in a pretty bad situation (turn 2 or 3, with that kind of deck having no disruption, you should look for a solution to win rather than a solution to put a draw engine inline),
- When you have the mana available for trinket, if you spend those 3 mana to get a grindstone in hand, then why not having a grindstone in place of Trinket...
In the end, I found it interesting but "too smart" for this deck.

And finally for myr battlesphere, it is an option as a tinker target. The good point is that it can be hardcasted. The bad point is that blightsteel is just better when on baord...

Just excellent! If you accept Euros, I can send you 75 cents (should be more or less one dollar).

Hi storm,

I like the idea, really i like it. Racing the opponent with white weenie is just so cool.

I would just have 2 connected suggestions, based more on a global metagame than on your specific one :
- add some fast mana producers - sol ring and mana crypt - to make sure that you can really use quickly and efficiently your extremely powerfull equipment,
- replace the True Believer with Phyrexian Revoker.

I know that you use True Believer because of oath in your meta, but in my opinion, Phyrexian is just the way to go main deck nowadays cause it complements so well your mana denial tactic while being versatile. Especially in a build like yours which may have to wait turn 3 or 4 to have   available.
For that kind of build which use aether vial and lots of strip effects, I would move true in side and phyrexian in main. I tested it and I just loved it. That's a marvellous little creature and if you add sol ring and mana crypt, it is very easy to play.

Just my 2 cents,

Nicolas

EDIT : I would also perhaps replace Mirran Crusader by Kor Duelist and go more along the equipment road, like it has been suggested by other players.

DIABOLIC INTENT, that's it! Thank you so much...

In my memory, I knew there was a black tutor with the "sacrifice a creature" additional cost, but impossible to remember the name of the card... And I don't know why, but the search engine of my mws didn't find it with the following keywords : "additional,sacrifice,creature,search"...

That's just the perfect replacement for the 4th cabal therapy. I definitely have to test it!

And I update the latest list in the previous thread with it.

PS : yes, it is possible to get a Iona with Green Sun's Zenith and Painter in play. I did it once or twice with the original list including Green Sun's Zenith (with tolarian and gaea on board at the same time, it is "mana party time"). So fun

Ornithopter could be good in the black version I am testing for the time being. Indeed, in this version, the fact that it is 0/2 may even be an advantage.
Equip with skullclamp => orni doesn't die.
Sacrifice to cabal therapy => orni dies and you draw.

Here, orni is even better than a 1/1 creature cause it can support at the same time skullclamp and cabal.

For instance, here is Green/Black version I try.

// Lands
    4 Gaea's Cradle
    1 Tolarian Academy
    2 Misty Rainforest
    1 Wooded Foothills
    1 Verdant Catacombs
    1 Windswept Heath
    2 Dryad Arbor
    2 Bayou
    1 Forest

// Creatures
    4 Memnite
    2 Ornithopter
    1 Tukatongue Thallid

    4 Xantid Swarm
    4 Birds of Paradise
    4 Painter's Servant

    1 Terastodon
    1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
    1 Progenitus

// Spells
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Sol Ring

    2 Grindstone
    4 Skullclamp

    4 Natural Order
    2 Cabal Therapy
    
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Diabolic Intent