[Deck Discussion] Fred Astaire

[beder]

Hi all,

Spring is there, time for new builds to open out. Recently, I am toying with a funny build, a shop deck in which I put all the most efficient mana producers, in order to make it a fast and efficient combo oriented build.
Indeed, with the release of Kuldotha Forgemaster, combo oriented shops have become a reality. It is possible to build a shop/combo deck which consistently win turn 3, sometimes turn 2 or even turn 1. And the good thing about it, is that going the shop road, you can build a combo deck which is not so impacted by shop classical disruption, this shop disruption which gives such a hard time to most of the other combo builds based on classical combo mechanisms (ritual, storm, belcher, ...).  

---------------------------- Fred Astaire V1.0 ---------------------------------

// Lands x14 (only the most efficient ones)
    4 Mishra's Workshop
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    1 Tolarian Academy
    1 Strip Mine

// Creatures
    4 Metalworker
    4 Lodestone Golem
    4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
    4 Myr Battlesphere

    1 Precursor Golem
    1 Wurmcoil Engine
    1 Duplicant
    1 Blightsteel Colossus

// Spells
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Mox Opal

    4 Grim Monolith

    4 Voltaic Key
    1 Time Vault

    4 Lightning Greaves

    1 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Trinisphere
    1 Memory Jar

------------------------------------------------------------------

The idea is pretty simple :
- almost no disruption (except lodestone and trinisphere),
- the most efficient and brutal mana producers : 12+1 wonderfull lands, 4 metalworkers, 7 solomoxen + 1 Opal + 1 Mana vault, 4 Grim monolith,
- some very big creature dealing huge amount of damages, speed up thanks to lightening greaves,
- a strong key vault combo, thanks to the 4 key and the forgemaster to find the vault,
- a simple tool kit for the forgemaster

Some principles :
- Lands are restricted to the most efficient ones,
- The 4 voltaic become strong mana producers, in relation with the 4 grims, 1 mana vault, 1 sol ring and 1 mana crypt (plus the metalworker),
- The 4 lightening greaves are just insane! Giving haste to the forgemaster to find in the same turn a blightsteel which then gets haste and kills in the same turn, is really insane. Such a cool combo.
- The key vault combo is pretty easy to set up thanks to the 4 key and the forgemasters,
- Myr Battlesphere is fast, really fast. Damn, I like it.

Some remarks :
- Quite obvious, this deck does not like null rod. Against null rod deck, the tactic is simple : either you race them through combo, or you go for the aggro road. Let's keep in mind that 2 of those big creatures may be sufficient to win in aggro mode.
- The deck is fast => turn 3 win is common, turn 2 win is also totally feasible, turn 1 win happens.
- The deck is consistent
  - Thanks to the forgemaster, the key/vault or the blightsteel combo tactics are consistent,
  - Thanks to the significantly big creatures, the aggro/race tactic is also pretty consistent,

Well, this is a funny and brutal build. Fast enough to compete against some blue builds, "brown" enough to deal with regular shops and their disruption.  

Still under testing but definitely show some interesting results...

Nicolas

[brokenbacon]

I really like this build. I've been keeping an eye on the forgemaster crap, this looks pretty golden. I'm going to give this a whirl, I really like the idea!!

EDIT: Just did some testing, I keep cracking up at how ridiculous this build is. Works very very consistently!! Null Rod = close to auto lose, my guess. Strip Mine feels kind of useless, maybe you could go with 4x Staff of Domination somewhere and just bug out?

[LSD25]

seems pretty explosive, but the lack of tangle wires makes me fear decks with counters and tutors

will test and see...

[nineisnoone]

love the deck.

I think staff would be too narrow.  really I don't think there is room for keys and staffs, and keys are basically strictly better here (both combo with metal/forge respectively, but key has other uses).

Personally I like hellkite (seems better with greaves too), but battlesphere is good too. i don't really see the point in the precursor and wurmcoil.  if anything I'd rather throw a platinum angel in there. 

What's the sideboard looking like?

[beder]

love the deck.

I think staff would be too narrow.  really I don't think there is room for keys and staffs, and keys are basically strictly better here (both combo with metal/forge respectively, but key has other uses).

Agree, I also came to that conclusion.

Personally I like hellkite (seems better with greaves too), but battlesphere is good too. i don't really see the point in the precursor and wurmcoil.  if anything I'd rather throw a platinum angel in there. 

Well, precursor and wurmcoil are an attempt to mitigate the null rod weakness. Those 2 creatures can be hardacasted and may sometimes be sufficient to win against a null rod deck. But you are right, those are 2 of the 5 slots I am not sure about.
- Wurmcoil, Precusor, Sensei, Strip mine, Mox Opal

I am also trying another version of the build with 4 chalice and 1Steel Helkite in place of those 5 slots.
 

What's the sideboard looking like?

Don't know, still have to work on it. For the time being, I have been focussing on the main.

[Bakalias]

Well, precursor and wurmcoil are an attempt to mitigate the null rod weakness. Those 2 creatures can be hardacasted and may sometimes be sufficient to win against a null rod deck. But you are right, those are 2 of the 5 slots I am not sure about.
- Wurmcoil, Precusor, Sensei, Strip mine, Mox Opal

In my opinion, you'd better go all in on game 1 and see if you're able to win post board against null rod decks.
Hellkite and platz are also good cards to stop Trygon, which is often found in those decks.

Regarding Top it's, for me, a must have as it allows you to draw and drawing has always been a problem for shop.

[Meddling Mike]

First off, let me say that the synergy between battlesphere/wurmcoil and forgemaster is adorable.

I never liked the idea of any of these forgemaster based shop decks, the central card to the strategy involves playing a 5cc 5/3, waiting a turn, then having at least 3 expendable artifacts to get a nice tinker toolbox thing going on. If I can make it to this position I think just a out any threat should be adequate to get the job done and in the meantime we are sacrificing the disruption offered by more traditional workshop decks. I have made the argument that I did not like 1st turn metalworker because giving an opponent an unencumbered 1-2 turns is usually too much in vintage if the strategy of the shop deck is to be effective. This deck does powerful things, but most decks in vintage do more powerful things or does them faster, the ones that don't run null rod instead, which seems to be devastating to this deck.

[Bill Copes]

This deck does powerful things, but most decks in vintage do more powerful things or does them faster, the ones that don't run null rod instead, which seems to be devastating to this deck.

What he said.

I've taken similar versions of this deck to 2 small tournaments (each 4 rounds, cut to top 4).  The first build had red and supported welders, while the second was very close to what you have here.  Matches were lost because even a turn 1 Myr Battlesphere isn't fast enough. I think this is due to the lack of disruption.  I tried to balance the disruption (Thorns, Chalices, Lodestones) and the aggro/combo plan, but in the end it just felt like a less-consistent, diluted version of 2 different decks.

[nineisnoone]

Re: metalworker.  It's very flip dependent in my eyes. On the play, I think its very strong. On the draw its passable.

I don't think   Null Rod is that bad. If its some fish deck you can probably beat them on the ground. If its MUD with rod, I'd say its kind of a toss. You can go big over them, but they are a little smoother.     

I think the big thing making forgemaster good enough is BSC. It makes greaves strong, since it is part of a combo now.  Turn one greaves opens up a lot of scary things.

[TheBrassMan]

Interesting deck, awesome writeup beder.  I played against a deck similar to this recently, and it was an extremely close, interesting match.  That list ran the Leyline of the Void / Helm of Obedience combo as well.  I wouldn't be surprised to see this deck cropping up in more places soon - though vulnerability to Null Rod is certainly a factor. 

Personally I'd love (be afraid) to see a list with less Metalworker and Lightning Greaves.  I think you'd get a lot more value out of disruptive cards in those slots.

[Shax]

Looks similar to a Shop Combo build. Except your running lots of creatures, loads of creatures actually. Wait, is this supposed to be Shop Combo. I meant MUD Aggro.

[beder]

The deck is still under testings, some remarks made here makes a lot of sense.

Here are my thoughts about this deck:
- in this configuration, lodestone is good but not excellent : not brutal enough, not disruptive enough (cause not combined with the other classical shop tools)
- metalworker is perhaps not necessary,
- greaves is really the card that allows this deck to be combo fast, meaning to really be played as a combo deck. In combination with battlesphere, blightsteel or forgemaster, this really improves the build.

[brokenbacon]

Honestly, I did a little testing with this, and I think Metalworker really really benefits the deck. It is extremely strong, and the turn after it hits, we're guaranteed a win most of the time. It powers out Forgemaster + Lightning Greaves (favorite combo in the deck). I personally think 4 Metalworker is necessary.
Beder, what would you consider putting in instead of Metalworker?

[beder]

Honestly, I did a little testing with this, and I think Metalworker really really benefits the deck. It is extremely strong, and the turn after it hits, we're guaranteed a win most of the time. It powers out Forgemaster + Lightning Greaves (favorite combo in the deck). I personally think 4 Metalworker is necessary.

Beder, what would you consider putting in instead of Metalworker?

For the time being, I don't know I just feel like it may not be necessary, opening door for new building path.
Indeed, IMO, this build may be split into 2 groups :

A) the core component of the deck, the ones that were really excellent in my testings => ~45 cards

4 Mishra's Workshop, 4 Ancient Tomb, 4 City of Traitors, 1 Tolarian Academy
7 solomoxen+mana vault
3-4 Grim Monolith

4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Myr Battlesphere
1 Blightsteel Colossus

3-4 Voltaic Key
3-4 Lightning Greaves
1 Time Vault
1 Trinisphere

B) the good cards, the other ones that were good in my testings but perhaps not necessary or not the very best choice (~15 cards)


When it comes to metalworker, I am not sure that it belongs to category A, cause I more or less always succeeded in playing my threats without worker, just with the other mana producers. That does not mean that workers is not necessary, I have to validate that point through more testings.

When it comes to lodestone, I am not sure that it belongs to category A, cause it may not be disruptive enough - as a single piece of disruption - and not brutal enough - for this combo oriented build.


So now, I am more or less back to reflexion, trying to define if there is not a better usage for those 15 slots, with 3 potential roads in mind :

1) going the "pure combo road", with more enablers or mana producers for the combo
Example of package : metalworkers, ...

2) going the "resistance road", with cards protecting the combo or helping it to be even more resistant - welder could be this kind of cards,
Example of package : some welders, some chalice, perhaps some bazaar

3) going the "disruption road", with cards slowing down opponent to speed up the combo (relatively) - lodestone being this kind of cards.
Example of package : some strip effects, thorn, lodestone, tangle

I just feel like some remarks made by posters (brassman and others) about this deck are valid : for the last 15 slots, has to focus only on one of those roads in order it to be even more efficient.

[Bill Copes]

I just feel like some remarks made by posters (brassman and others) about this deck are valid : for the last 15 slots, has to focus only on one of those roads in order it to be even more efficient.

I think Memory Jar deserves to be one of the last 15.  I think everything you listed as a 3-4 should probably just be 3 ofs, to open you up a couple more slots.

So if you had enough slots to play with, I'd consider the following:

1 Memory Jar
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Tangle Wire

The idea behind this package is not to lock your opponent out of the game, but to buy you enough time to get the combo online.  The chalices are probably the best disruption card here, as they easily shut off accel. and your opponent's 1-3cc bounce spells.  I think it's correct to play the other spheres over Lodestone, since he doesn't slow down your opponents mana acceleration (the only matches I lost with this deck where against decks that produced fast tinkers).

What are your thoughts on the sideboard?

[beder]

After further testings, I made some ajustements :
- As suggested by several member of TMD, I introduced a small but effective disruption package : 2+1 waste effect, 4 thorns, 4 tangles (+the 4 lodestone),
- I increased the number of sensei which strengthen the consistency of the build (+ they are interesting with voltaic or even with forgemaster),
- I reduced the forgemaster toolkit, cause I noticed that I always go and search for blightsteel or time vault. Steel Hellkite has a good synergy with greaves but it could also be a duplicant.

Remark : i didn't pick chalice cause with so many 1CC and 2CC cards in this deck, it is difficult to set it up quickly without cutting lots of your own cards.

I feel that this is the right amount of disruption, slowing down a little bit the opponent's gameplan in order to relatively speed up my combo game plan. I like this new build which is more consistent and still pretty fast :

---------------------------- Fred Astaire V1.1 ----------------------------
// Lands
    4 Mishra's Workshop
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    2 Wasteland
    1 Strip Mine
    1 Tolarian Academy

// Creatures
    4 Lodestone Golem
    4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
    4 Myr Battlesphere

    1 Steel Hellkite
    1 Blightsteel Colossus

// Spells
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Vault

    3 Grim Monolith
    3 Voltaic Key
   
    3 Sensei's Divining Top   
    3 Lightning Greaves   
   
    4 Thorn of Amethyst
    4 Tangle Wire

    1 Time Vault
   
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The deck still doesn't like null rod, but the matchup against other builds is improved (especially against blue decks).

When it comes to the sideboard, I definitely need to consider the following matchups :
- null rod decks : some Wurmcoil Engine have to be part of the sideboard,
- oath : leyline of sanctity could be the right card
- and for sure dredge : nihil spellbomb,...

Against blue decks, I don't see any cards that would be very interesting. That a pb... Ideas?

[Dr.KnowMaD]

First, I like the latest list.  Very Cool.  

The Loadstones are aggro and run through rods.  I like the strong aggro aspect.  Being able to play multiple roles (aggro, combo, control) towards victory.  They do need the help though to better maximize there potential.

Wurmcoil Engine also fits this and one - two could fit.  Easily cast able and can disrupt some decks in their own way.  There are lots of choices but what about a Sundering Titian?    

I think I am missing something because I don't see Nihil Spellbomb being better than Relic of Progenitus.  You don't seem dependent on a graveyard and the spellbomb needs a   to draw.  I do understand that it easily bypasses Chalice at 0, so favoring instead of T.Crypts.  You have mana and drawing a card would be nice.

Against blue, possibly Mindbreak Trap?  Mindslaver?

Lates, DrKnowMaD

[beder]

I think I am missing something because I don't see Nihil Spellbomb being better than Relic of Progenitus.  You don't seem dependent on a graveyard and the spellbomb needs a   to draw.  I do understand that it easily bypasses Chalice at 0, so favoring instead of T.Crypts.  You have mana and drawing a card would be nice.

You are not missing anything, I wrote the wrong card name. I meant "Relic" and not "Nihil"

[beder]

After testings and adjustments, here were the conclusions that I came to :

- The wastelands effects were really not that exciting. Deck are so well prepared to fight MUD, that those 3 waste effects, without sphere, are really not decisive. Moreover, with the full set of City of traitor, playing a wasteland and losing the 2mana land is a pretty poor tempo play.

- The tangle wire and the thorn were excellent. This is a small disruption package but combined with the lodestone, this is often sufficent to slow down a little bit your opponent , just a little bit but very often just what is necessary.

- Senseis were good but I often faced situation where I would have prefered them to directly be threat, instead of way to search for threats.

- Still helkite is excellent, especially combined with greaves.

- I missed sometimes Metalworker's capacity to produce huge amount of mana,


So I went back to the blackboard, trying to adjust my build in order to take into account those observations. Here is what I came with, which has IMO a very good balance between speed, small protection and consistency.

---------------- Fred Astaire V1.2 --------------------------------------------
// Lands
    4 Mishra's Workshop
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    1 Tolarian Academy

// Creatures
    3 Metalworker

    4 Lodestone Golem
    4 Kuldotha Forgemaster

    3 Steel Hellkite
    2 Myr Battlesphere
    1 Sundering Titan
    1 Blightsteel Colossus

// Spells
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Vault

    3 Voltaic Key
    3 Grim Monolith

    4 Lightning Greaves
    4 Tangle Wire
    4 Thorn of Amethyst

    1 Time Vault
    1 Memory Jar

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////

// Sideboard
4 Precursor Golem (maybe something else could be better against null rod deck)
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Chalice of the Void (good against any aggro/control deck, relying on 2CC creature, also good if you are on the play game 2 or game 3 against combo)
3 x XXX

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Some remarks :

- 3 metalworker seems to be the right number in this build. With the 3 grim and the 3 voltaic, this is a nice package to consistently power out turn 2 a big threat.
- The "big robots team", made of 3 SteelHelkite+2 Myr Battlesphere+1 Sundering+1 Blighsteel, is smoother when it comes to the mana curve.
- The 4 Greaves are really excellent : in this deck, those are 1/2 timewalk. One has to try them to understand how interesting they are.
- Memory Jar comes back in the deck given that metalworker is there. Note that with greaves, the activation of Jar is often gg.

To conclude, testings are really good, with nice results against Blue Combo and Shop. Definitely an interesting build to try.

Nicolas

EDIT : some funny tricks/moves
- think about the "skip a turn/untap" abaility of timevault. Thanks to tangle, this is sometimes "more or less" a free turn, especially if opponent has 4 or less permanent when you play tangle,
- you can use the voltaic key to untap a myr token, to extra pump Myr Battlesphere (well, i think you can...),
- keep in mind that you can tap your mana in upkeep in resp to tangle and untap after grim at the end of upkeep,

- against deck with a combo/mode, when you hesitate between playing tangle and playing a threat, if the other move does not win the game, just play tangle (most of the time it will be the right choice)
- against counters, always play time vault first : opponent is likely not to counter it to wait for key, you have 3 of them,
- against artifact destroyer, keep vault in hand and wait for the right spot to play the combo in one signle turn,
- use tangle to protect kuldotha ability. Exemple : turn 2 you play kuldotha, turn 3 you play tangle and pass the turn instead of using kuldotha ability, end ofopponent's turn, use kuldotha sacrificing tangle for blighsteel for instance, Turn 4 you attack,
- keep in mind that greaves not only gives haste, it also gives shroud. This may be a nice protection against opponent welder or natural's claim for instance,
- if it feels urgent to win (or not to lose), do not hesistate playing memory jar aggressively, even if you need to tap metalworker to power it out. It is sometimes the right play not to wait a turn. Indeed, cracking memory jar could give you a key to untap metalworker and go crazy, or just find some more mana accelerators to play most of your hand.
- do not keep a hand with only city of traitor,

- in most of the matchup, you are the aggressor : go for the win and do not fear opponent counters or anti artifact, delaying will not help you,
- trust your deck when it comes to drawing big mana producers (with 13 lands, 3 grim, sol ring, mana crypt, mana vault, 3 metalworker + potentally the 3 keys, there is a good chance that you wil draw the mana you need),
- keep faith : the deck has a pretty good ability to top deck huge bomb. And thanks to greaves, lot's of top deck can be devastating, bringing you back in the game or just winning on the spot.

[Shax]

Metalworker. This card will win you games against Mirror MUD decks that think they can cheat themselves. If they run Wasteland/Stripmine w/or without Crucible, Metalworker is the safeguard against these strategies. It is also very beneficial to run Wasteland/Stripmine against !*anything*! if your running a set of Metalworkers since they do heavy mana making. A resolved Metalworker against opponents means your in the drivers seat. Being able to Waste/Stripmine Mishra's Workshops and Bazaar of Baghdad improves win%. By how much I have no idea. It could make win% lower. But I know these 4 cards are good at trading with those two lands in particular.

[WhiteWolf]

Wouldn’t Birthing Pod be an interesting addition to this style of deck?

I’m going to test something like this:

4 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
2 Precursor Golem
1 Duplicant
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Myr Battlesphere
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus

4 Voltaic Key
4 Lightning Greaves
4 Birthing Pod
1 Time Vault

4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra’s Workshop
4 City of Traitors
2 Crystal Vein
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
5 Mox
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
4 Grim Monolith


Pod gives you a small utility package and makes your critters uncounterable. Switching a used Metalworker for a Lodestone, a Precursor Golem for a Wurmcoil/Duplicant and a Battlesphere for a Titan are all interesting plays. Some other interesting plays are:

-   Birthing away Precursor, Wurmcoil and Battlesphere leaves you with the tokens.
-   Birthing away Lodestone for Forgemaster can give you the win with a greaves in play.
-   Keys allow you to use Pod multiple times in one turn. Going from Precursor to Wurmcoil to Battlesphere to Titan seems fun 

I’m certain there are more broken decks to build around Birthing Pod but I think it has its merits in a workshop aggro deck.

[Mr. Type 4]

- you can use the voltaic key to untap a myr token, to extra pump Myr Battlesphere (well, i think you can...),

I think this is only useable on the Battlesphere itself, because you have to do this ability all at once.  You could also attack with one of the tokens and untap it to pump Battlesphere but this won't increase your total "fling damage" any higher than it would have been before. 

[beder]

- you can use the voltaic key to untap a myr token, to extra pump Myr Battlesphere (well, i think you can...),

I think this is only useable on the Battlesphere itself, because you have to do this ability all at once.  You could also attack with one of the tokens and untap it to pump Battlesphere but this won't increase your total "fling damage" any higher than it would have been before. 

Yep... was not so sure about that tip...
Hopefully, this is not really decisive in this build.