Nivmagus Elemental

[MaximumCDawg]

I cast flusterstorm targeting your spell.  Storm triggers.  I target your spell with all my copies of flusterstorm.  Last copy to hit the stack resolves.  You pay 1 or its countered.  You dont pay 1.  Your spell is countered.  I can now exile all the rest of the copies and the original flusterstorm to nivmagus.

Alright, I see where you're going with this.  Once they choose not to pay, the remaining copies are superfluous.  That's got some value attached to it.  Still, I can't see running this guy just to make my Flusterstorms into Power Sinks.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I cast flusterstorm targeting your spell.  Storm triggers.  I target your spell with all my copies of flusterstorm.  Last copy to hit the stack resolves.  You pay 1 or its countered.  You dont pay 1.  Your spell is countered.  I can now exile all the rest of the copies and the original flusterstorm to nivmagus.

Alright, I see where you're going with this.  Once they choose not to pay, the remaining copies are superfluous.  That's got some value attached to it.  Still, I can't see running this guy just to make my Flusterstorms into Power Sinks.

That's completely missing the point.  This guy is such a fast clock (trivially a 5/6 on turn 2) that even the first copy of Flusterstorm is a hard counter. In addition, he makes Fluster a permanent +4/+4 or +6/+6 for himself against Shops. Consider that even Crash is decent with him.  Fluster my own Crash, paying 1U for for the Fluster and I've not only killed your Sphere, but I also have a fast clock.

[evouga]

In addition, he makes Fluster a permanent +4/+4 or +6/+6 for himself against Shops. Consider that even Crash is decent with him. 

When I'm trying to scrounge up the mana to pay for my overpriced instants/sorceries vs shops, I usually don't have an extra 1U or 2U lying around to also pay for Flusterstorm shenanigans...

[MaximumCDawg]

I'm also not keeping in Flusterstorm against shops.

[boggyb]

Hmm, I'm inclined to agree with CDawg. A beater, even a big one, strikes me as a poor consolation prize for losing a counter war over Tinker, Yawg, Jace (especially!), or a key combo piece. Wouldn't I rather have something like Mindbreak Trap that helps me win the key war, instead of hedging against losing?

Well there are plenty of spells people play that gain them incremental advantage or set them up for a power play down the road that would be much more attractive to counter, or much less hurtful to lose a counter war over, with this guy out.

For example, you're on the play, and have Nivmagus out and UU up. Your opponent has Underground Sea, and lays an island and casts Bob. You Drain it. They Force back. Now you can exile your Drain and you've got a 3/4 pressuring their life total. Maybe you pump him further on your turn by exiling a Preordain or something.

Or on turn 1, you lay Nivmagus, and they cast Sensei's Top. You can more aggressively Misstep this spell now, because if they Misstep back, you can always pump your dude.

Lots of little scenarios like this where Nivmagus gives you quite a little speed boost that can really tip the scales in these tight blue mirrors.

edit: Another thing, he still gives you advantage when you're WINNING a counter war, too. A counter war usually involves just one trumping counterspell on top of one or two others that no longer matter. You can let the trump resolve and exile the rest.

[serracollector]

So I just need a deck including

4 x Gutshot
4 x Mental Misstep
4 x Noxious Revival
4 x Flusterstorm
4 x Surgical Extraction
4 x Nivmagus
4 x Kiln Fiend
4 x Berserk

and just win on turn 2-3 every game right?   

[xouman]

As stated, shattering spree does wonders. Paying RRR to kill one mox and +4/+4 is not the worst thing on earth. Fluster is great also. Guttersnipe also wants a similar shell.

30 instants/sorceries, 3/4 guttersnipes, 3 nivmagus seems something similar to RUG, but more cheatty.

You play tinker, I fow, you fow. I sacrifice fow and play another fow, you drain. I sacrifice that drain, and play fluster. You can't pay more than 1 mana, so I sacrifice 4 copies. My nivmagus is 13/14. Or well, instead fluster I play spell pierce. Well, then nivmagus is only 5/6. I could handle it.

The biggest problem, as said, is jace and other bouncers. But any deck featuring 30 instants/sorceries is playing probably 12-15 counters, jace should the the card to beat.

[vaughnbros]

As stated, shattering spree does wonders. Paying RRR to kill one mox and +4/+4 is not the worst thing on earth. Fluster is great also. Guttersnipe also wants a similar shell.

30 instants/sorceries, 3/4 guttersnipes, 3 nivmagus seems something similar to RUG, but more cheatty.

You play tinker, I fow, you fow. I sacrifice fow and play another fow, you drain. I sacrifice that drain, and play fluster. You can't pay more than 1 mana, so I sacrifice 4 copies. My nivmagus is 13/14. Or well, instead fluster I play spell pierce. Well, then nivmagus is only 5/6. I could handle it.

The biggest problem, as said, is jace and other bouncers. But any deck featuring 30 instants/sorceries is playing probably 12-15 counters, jace should the the card to beat.

That deck should definitely be running delver.  The more I think about it the more comparable this becomes to delver.  Both might not be much more than a 1 power creature, but can have a significant impact on the game early.  Both want you to run a ton of instants/sorceries.  Both get hit pretty hard by bounce spells.

[psyburat]

The fact that he turns Mana Drain into Counterspell from time to time is nice too, and especially something that a tempo deck wants against Big Blue.  He's got a good handful of niche uses against every archetype, which is that creature-based decks in Vintage are all about.  I'm surprised how little Mental Missteps are being mentioned in these examples, especially considering how useless it is against Workshops despite being a maindeck card.  Preordain, Misstep, Flusterstorm, and suddenly you have paid U and two cards to make him a 9/10, which can be game over against some decks.  Xmas land, I know, but a possible line of play.

[Ten-Ten]

no evasion? 'nuff said 

[beder]

I think this guy may find a place in a Storm deck.

First, it offers an interesting solution to the "Mindbreak trap"+"flusterstorm" weakness of those decks. It turns an "all in situation" into an "backed-up situation". If the "Empty the warrens" or the "Tendril" get "mindbreaked" or "flusterstormed", this thing recycles your storm and attack for the win.
In a sense, having this guy on the board before chaining spells is quite a strong guarantee to go for the win, whatever the opponent may have in hand in terms of counter. It may replace the duress effect in a storm deck.

Then and against the shop, other weakness of storm decks, It may be interesting to turn each of my spells - which are not especially hard to cast but hard to chain - into permanent +2/+2, and try to win the fight on the ground through creature combat phase. Not ideal but could work with the right configuration.

Just my 2 cents

[Metman]

I can't believe we are still talking about this card. The only way this card is any good in Vintage is when you are getting your spells countered or you are running enough dead cards in a matchup? I can't realistically imagine a deck that beats anything that has room for this card.

[MaximumCDawg]

Witchya, Metman.  There are corner cases where you can imagine getting some value out of your counterwar or spells.  So what?  Don't lose your counterwar.  Don't run dead cards.  This card is a fun rogue build, sure, but it feels about as effective as running Arcane Denial.dec, and basically for the same reason.  You're running subpar cards to do not-broken things.

Prove me wrong, though; brew it up!

[TinkerRobot]

I think this card is Vintage playable, for the same reason Tarmogoyf is vintage playable; sometimes you just need a dumb beater.

PROS

- It's blue.
- Unlike Goyf, is unaffected by 'yard hate.
- Mental Missteps aren't useless against Shop G1 (if you run this MD...)
- Creates utility out of dead spells versus Chalice @ 1 or 2
- If you opponent sides in Mindbreak Trap G2, side this in G3 for protection.
- Aforementioned Flusterstorm shenanigans
- Makes Ancient Grudge better in the maindeck

CONS

- It's a vanilla creature in vintage.
- Has the unique disadvantage of being hit by both Red and Blue Elemental Blasts

I already ordered my playset for $10. Can't wait to beat down with Iron Man.

[Lemnear]

Tested yesterday instead of theorycrafting:

Crap in storm. You want your spells to resolve. You can't chain spells without them resolving. Meta isn't 4 chaining spells atm otherwise dark ritual weren't dismissed in todays builds. Mindbreak and fluster obviously don't counter your Storm spell with this Guy on the table but your enabler.

Fails vs Shop unless you run crappy free spells because of the Need to remove 2 spells under spheres to block lodestone.

Enables oath

Misstep victim. Still much played in my meta :/

Fails Jace-test. Like Dryad.

Delver and goofy outclass this having less drawbacks





I'll pass on this one and Save my money

[rpf5029]

I think this guy may find a place in a Storm deck.

First, it offers an interesting solution to the "Mindbreak trap"+"flusterstorm" weakness of those decks. It turns an "all in situation" into an "backed-up situation". If the "Empty the warrens" or the "Tendril" get "mindbreaked" or "flusterstormed", this thing recycles your storm and attack for the win.
In a sense, having this guy on the board before chaining spells is quite a strong guarantee to go for the win, whatever the opponent may have in hand in terms of counter. It may replace the duress effect in a storm deck.

Then and against the shop, other weakness of storm decks, It may be interesting to turn each of my spells - which are not especially hard to cast but hard to chain - into permanent +2/+2, and try to win the fight on the ground through creature combat phase. Not ideal but could work with the right configuration.

Just my 2 cents

This is what I'm thinking, too.  It rewards you for playing cheap, incremental spells, and turning Flusterstorm -- a Counterspell -- into an offensive weapon.  Not having to play 2BB Tendrils may just be what the Storm deck is looking for after clearing out spheres against shops.  Playing Grapeshot to take out your average Blue decks chump-blockers may be strong in the Blue match-up as well.

[median]

This guy will probably replace lotus cobra in gush decks.

[gkraigher]

This guy will probably replace lotus cobra in gush decks.

The only thing this guy will replace are token and lands in the trash can. 

[vaughnbros]

Tested yesterday instead of theorycrafting:

Crap in storm. You want your spells to resolve. You can't chain spells without them resolving. Meta isn't 4 chaining spells atm otherwise dark ritual weren't dismissed in todays builds. Mindbreak and fluster obviously don't counter your Storm spell with this Guy on the table but your enabler.

Fails vs Shop unless you run crappy free spells because of the Need to remove 2 spells under spheres to block lodestone.

Enables oath

Misstep victim. Still much played in my meta :/

Fails Jace-test. Like Dryad.

Delver and goofy outclass this having less drawbacks

How did you build the storm list? cause I don't think you should be running empty or tendrils with this guy its pointless he makes flusterstorm lethal.

Exile 1 card so you can block and trade with lodestone.  Are you telling me you wait till your goyf is at least a 5/6 to block a lodestone?

Delver fails jace test, gets hit with misstep, and enables oath.  I fail to see your point here.

This doesn't really seem like the card you can just shove 4 copies into a storm deck or rug delver deck and expect it to do well.

[CorwinB]

I find it interesting that the Vintage community seems much more open to new cards than a couple years ago when Jace TMS was "LOL, 4 Mana Brainstorm". Have the numbers of Vintage-playable cards really increased over the last years (I started playing again for M10, so I don't know how spoiler seasons went before...) ?

[Lemnear]

Tested yesterday instead of theorycrafting:

Crap in storm. You want your spells to resolve. You can't chain spells without them resolving. Meta isn't 4 chaining spells atm otherwise dark ritual weren't dismissed in todays builds. Mindbreak and fluster obviously don't counter your Storm spell with this Guy on the table but your enabler.

Fails vs Shop unless you run crappy free spells because of the Need to remove 2 spells under spheres to block lodestone.

Enables oath

Misstep victim. Still much played in my meta :/

Fails Jace-test. Like Dryad.

Delver and goofy outclass this having less drawbacks

How did you build the storm list? cause I don't think you should be running empty or tendrils with this guy its pointless he makes flusterstorm lethal.

Exile 1 card so you can block and trade with lodestone.  Are you telling me you wait till your goyf is at least a 5/6 to block a lodestone?

Delver fails jace test, gets hit with misstep, and enables oath.  I fail to see your point here.

This doesn't really seem like the card you can just shove 4 copies into a storm deck or rug delver deck and expect it to do well.

I've tested with bob-Storm tbh with duress, flusterstorm and Rituals. Nothing too fancy but enough to test why all people Seem to think it's "amazing in Storm". Felt like I could have played phylactery lich and achieve the same in some matchups.

Waiting for him to eat 2 cards has the advantage to turn the tide against Workshop instead of 2 for 1 yourself. A consideration

Delver isn't carddisadvantage, has Evasion and multiple delver can Share a trigger aka don't suck in multiples ... Isn't that obvious?

[vaughnbros]

Tested yesterday instead of theorycrafting:

Crap in storm. You want your spells to resolve. You can't chain spells without them resolving. Meta isn't 4 chaining spells atm otherwise dark ritual weren't dismissed in todays builds. Mindbreak and fluster obviously don't counter your Storm spell with this Guy on the table but your enabler.

Fails vs Shop unless you run crappy free spells because of the Need to remove 2 spells under spheres to block lodestone.

Enables oath

Misstep victim. Still much played in my meta :/

Fails Jace-test. Like Dryad.

Delver and goofy outclass this having less drawbacks

How did you build the storm list? cause I don't think you should be running empty or tendrils with this guy its pointless he makes flusterstorm lethal.

Exile 1 card so you can block and trade with lodestone.  Are you telling me you wait till your goyf is at least a 5/6 to block a lodestone?

Delver fails jace test, gets hit with misstep, and enables oath.  I fail to see your point here.

This doesn't really seem like the card you can just shove 4 copies into a storm deck or rug delver deck and expect it to do well.

I've tested with bob-Storm tbh with duress, flusterstorm and Rituals. Nothing too fancy but enough to test why all people Seem to think it's "amazing in Storm". Felt like I could have played phylactery lich and achieve the same in some matchups.

Waiting for him to eat 2 cards has the advantage to turn the tide against Workshop instead of 2 for 1 yourself. A consideration

Delver isn't carddisadvantage, has Evasion and multiple delver can Share a trigger aka don't suck in multiples ... Isn't that obvious?

You could've pretty much stopped at I was playing rituals... I don't think any single printing can make them relevant without a massive metagame shift

Nivmagus shouldnt be card disadvantage if played correctly and his pumping is largely in your hands.  Delver flipping is almost completely out of your control making you rely on variance.  He caps out as a 3/2 so he needs evasion nivmagus can become much larger.  Nivmagus does suck in multiples though.

[gkraigher]

Nivmagus does suck in multiples though

ding ding ding.  as well as in general.

[MaximumCDawg]

I find it interesting that the Vintage community seems much more open to new cards than a couple years ago when Jace TMS was "LOL, 4 Mana Brainstorm". Have the numbers of Vintage-playable cards really increased over the last years (I started playing again for M10, so I don't know how spoiler seasons went before...) ?

That seems natural.  Consider all of the amazing Vintage playables that have rained down in the last few years: Cage, Tiago, Lodestone, Jace, Mental Misstep, Flusterstorm, etc etc.

How did you build the storm list? cause I don't think you should be running empty or tendrils with this guy its pointless he makes flusterstorm lethal.

Exile 1 card so you can block and trade with lodestone.  Are you telling me you wait till your goyf is at least a 5/6 to block a lodestone?

Delver fails jace test, gets hit with misstep, and enables oath.  I fail to see your point here.

This doesn't really seem like the card you can just shove 4 copies into a storm deck or rug delver deck and expect it to do well.

Why on earth would Storm want to run a win condition that has summoning sickness and can be chumped or removed?  Even Storm Entity is a better pick for the type of deck you're contemplating!

In fact, now that I think about it, I have a hard time seeing how this just isn't a bad version of Storm Entity.  It might be bigger faster, but at least Storm Elemental gives you value for all the cards you cast to generate the storm.  That's what Delver does; get big just while you play your game normally.  Nivmagus requires you to shoot yourself in the foot like Thought Gorger or something.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Not quite. Consider it in RUG.  The problem is that it competes pretty directly with Goyf.

[quicksilvervii]

Not quite. Consider it in RUG.  The problem is that it competes pretty directly with Goyf.

I can't imagine playing this in RUG.  Every spell I play is used to either A) disrupt the oponent, or B) used to build incremental advantage.

In both cases, I need the spells resolving.

[Lemnear]

You could've pretty much stopped at I was playing rituals... I don't think any single printing can make them relevant without a massive metagame shift

Nivmagus shouldnt be card disadvantage if played correctly and his pumping is largely in your hands.  Delver flipping is almost completely out of your control making you rely on variance.  He caps out as a 3/2 so he needs evasion nivmagus can become much larger.  Nivmagus does suck in multiples though.

Sorry but if people Talk about "Storm" in vintage it either contains gush or rituals. Since bob is reasonable with rituals and rituals feed nivmagus without restiction (opponent doesn't need to Play into your flusterstorm nor provoke a counterbattle) this testing seemed not outta place. Feeding gushes to nivmagus seems a complete waste instead of rituals. I won't discuss nivmagus vs. Talrand atm.

Nivmagus is near always carddisadvantage unless you "suprisingly" pump it while opponent mindlessly attacks with a Lodestone or confidant. You won't always living the dream to feed flusterstorm copies to him facing creatures. Wanna Feed him Will, Ancestral or Time walk or use their effects? We discuss the value of spell effects vs. 2 +1/+1 counters

@ Delver flipping: sure vintage players never heared of vampiric Tutor, mystical tutor, imperial seal, Preordain or sensei's divining top aside from chaining merchant scroll into mystical into Time Walk with 1-2 delver on the field. Yeah, Library-Control is alien to vintage ... Lol

[AmbivalentDuck]

Not quite. Consider it in RUG.  The problem is that it competes pretty directly with Goyf.

I can't imagine playing this in RUG.  Every spell I play is used to either A) disrupt the oponent, or B) used to build incremental advantage.

Right, but RUG supports Flusterstorm and Ancient Grudge. Both good enough for Vintage play on their own, both can trivially provide extra spells after they've already done their job.

[quicksilvervii]

Not quite. Consider it in RUG.  The problem is that it competes pretty directly with Goyf.

I can't imagine playing this in RUG.  Every spell I play is used to either A) disrupt the oponent, or B) used to build incremental advantage.

Right, but RUG supports Flusterstorm and Ancient Grudge. Both good enough for Vintage play on their own, both can trivially provide extra spells after they've already done their job.

Both are meant to stay at the ready until they are needed.  Ancient grudge for Time vault, if not against shops and flusterstorm against anything potentially backbreaking.

I'd rather have those cards on tap than a pump spell, let alone cutting good cards to fit this guy in the slot.

Also, terrible topdeck.  Would still rather have goyf/trygon/delver.

Guy needs a different shell, and at that point, kiln fiend may just be better.  Letting your spells resolve > not letting them resolve.

BUT ZOMG THIS GUYS GETS PERMANENTS COUNTERSES.

/yawn.

Potential for being busted is there, but not in the delver deck, and probably not in the storm deck.

Personally, even at 4 mana, I like Talrand better.

EDIT:

I think I like Lorescale Coatl better than this card too.

[xouman]

Yes, the more I think, the more I resemble this card with coatl. BTW, I find coatl probably better than tarmo in gush RUG, though I haven't tested it so surely I'm wrong.

Costing only 1CC, this card leads to aggresive plays. I'd probably play daze, quite brutal in the first turns when unexpected. And gush, so i can sacrifice it if countered. And why not faithless looting, to discard extra lands and reusable (potential +4/+4)? Fluster to defend myself from big blue, shattering spree to kill moxen and mud. New izzet charm, now with a fourth effect (+2/+2 XD). Add counters (some REBs, since can target directly nivmagus), bolts and ancestral, time walk, brainstorm, etc Probably a junk deck, but it is a start.