If you'd like to play stony silence  you'd also have to cut aether vial.

So that's -7 SFM+Equip, and -4 vial +4 stony silence means 7 open slots

Maybe cut the chalice afterwards, and that makes 11 open slots....

Thing that really seem to fight over those slots are:

Aven mindsencor (combined with arbitter this makes ghostquarter really shine)
Glowrider (sphere 4 to 7)
Porcelain legionaire (we need something that can put up a fight with other creature stategy's)
Ethersworn Canonist (however this might be overkill)
Mother of runes (we really need some protection for our 2/x dorks)
Leonin relic warder (pinpoint artifact/enchantment removal, and we need somethin to drop on turn 1 other then the cage, since we've just cut vial and chalice...)

Stony silence/null rod make's vial and Stonforge mystic (actualy the equipment, but that the only reason to play her) bad, so maybe if you realy want to play it you could add them instead of the vials, and play porcelain legionaire's, and leonin relic warder's instead of the stoneforge+equipment...

But I feel that without stoneforge+equip our 2/x dorks don't end the game quick enough....

Also, if you play revoker and fetch SoFaI, with mystic, it becomes a well protected clock+disruption....

Here's what I've started testing:

4x    Æther Vial
1x    Batterskull
4x    Chalice of the Void    
4x    Grafdigger’s Cage 
1x    Sword of Fire and Ice
1x    Umezawa’s Jitte

4x    Phyrexian Revoker
   
4x    Leonin Arbiter       
4x    Stoneforge Mystic
3x    Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

4x    Mental Misstep    
4x    Swords to Plowshares    

17x    Plains
1x    Strip Mine
4x    Wasteland

So far so good, but still some things that I'm not sure about....

Just my 2 cnts

Other than that it wouldn't be competitive, what would be the best way to build it nonetheless?

Okay, so I know how this will sound but I'll try it anyway.

With frantic search unrestricted, and snapcaster mage printed,
would it be possible to build a vintage high tide deck?

Would it run manadrain or cunning wish?
Would it be possible to keep it mono blue?

Thnx in advance...

And another bonus for playing with stingscourger is that it can remove bridge's against dredge (and remove a zomby, or bounce something else) by not paying the echo.

(for those that don't run mogg fanatic anymore)

Last sunday I participated in The Black Border Brawl tournament and got 3rd/4th place with dark time's, winning a tundra.

My actual List wil fllos (when it's put online I can simply copy/Paste it)

Round 1:Dredge
G1 I didn't get to scout so I didn't go for the free win with turn 1 leyline... he get's bazaar, I wasteland, then follow up with hexmage, he goes to play that land that gets his bazaa back, I can delay him for a while but my 20/20 come's to late as my first hexmage catches a darkblast...
G2: Double leyline and a jailer get there
G3: leyline+wasteland + EE for 0 and the 20/20 gets me there.

Round 2 MUD
G1: Pretty much get smacked around by golem's...
G2: I get the turn 1 Emissary, but his wormcoil engine make's him able to race... in the end I did 31 damage, but the lifelink sucks...

Round 3 MUD
G1: (I knew he was playing mud as he won against my girlfriend last round) I get the perfect had, Turn 1 urborg into dark ritual into hexmage + pithing needle naming wasteladn, turn 2 dark depth's and nog tangle wire means GG
G2: I get turn 1 leyline, mox+swamp and demonic for helm, topdeck lotus and GG it was... (I got lucky, ...)

Round 4 JaceVault
G1: I cad thoughtseize him and get the win on the table (next turn 20/20) but he topdecks the tiem vault so that was GG
G2: I get a good start with keyline, some discard + confidant, then he twisters and gets me the saddistic sacrament, my hexmage ( already have dark depth's in play) and enough stuff to tendrils for the win... nuff said....
G3: I duress and see oath (WTF) I draw nothing for a while, and try to thoughtseize + confidant but he had a hand consisting out of oath drain force Force, so I take the oath again...
We play draw go for a while and I find tendrills more discard and my sadistic sacrament and am able to bait his counters and tendrills for 12 life+ get my confidant to resolve (strange), but he put his oath on top with brainstorm so I get a free attack with confidant, (he's at 6 because of confidant+ tendrills + fetch)) he oath's up terrastodon and blows up his oath and some of his own.
I play my hexmage, he atacks with terrastodon and a token, I edict and topdeck my next edict. I draw some more hexmages and that was that.

Round 5: jacevault/Gush
G1:pretty standard discard vs countermagic game with me winnign with the 20/20token...
G2: more of the same realy but now with helm kill (I sided out 2 leyline's and get them both in my hand together with lotus and a tutor)

Round 6: ID into the top 8


T8:Gush vault
G1: he goed broekn with turn 1 jace TMS, ancestral+lotus+ saphire+ SDT and what not.... I get T1 rituals into duress (getting the 2nd jace) and hexmage to get rid of his jace. he draws vampiric (put safe away with brainstorm) and getw yagmoth's will to replay his stuff + jace. I vampiric for needle and needle jace, and het get rid of needle and goes on to win.
G2: I go balls to the wall here with only 1 swamp and go... EOT consultation for black lutus (7th card from the bothom) duress + lotus + hexmage + dark depth's and he doesnt fund his answer...
G3: I get mox, rutuals duress canfidant and waste his sea, I draw necropotence, he counters, and then he's out of gass and I tendrils him for the last 10-ish life...

T4: MUD
G1:He get's chalice for 2 and then hardlocks with smokestack and crucible...
G2: phyrexian revoker for hexmage + chalice at 0, crucible, then  revoker for helm, and then mishra's factory and more stuff... Yeah, this went downhill fast.

Props:
nice to have this deck preform so damn broken sometimes
Good location and really friendly people all around great tournament.

Slop's:
MUD
The sandwiches not being that good and the hot water for the noodle's wasn't hot enough...

In that case: What would you take out?

Grtz

EE is there to get rid of the otherwise seriously bothersome chalice of the void (which is painful when set on 2...). The fact that it kills moxen is icing on the cake...

EDIT:

Also, Ive recently dded a 1-off tendrills to the deck (kicked an edict for it) and I really like it as it's such an easy way to win right after you've walked in a couple of times with dark confidant or hexmage. (probably because I liked Forino Black back in the day...)

Honnestly If you have to play this deck unpowered, I would kick the helmline plan and go for chalice, null rod, and a tendrills (I still do even with the helmline, gives random oops I win's).

Obviously you need the extra dark ritual if you want tendrills.

Normaly you should find a link to the decklist in this thread (it made finals at the dutch vintage champs...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Oath has become a pretty bad choice since most drain decks started packing trygon and jace main deck, thus actually having better engines and disruption (and while beating) while taking in a lot less slots + getting a more stable manabase (more basics).

This results in oath being almost totally replaced by tezz decks.

And tezz is something we can fight pretty good with red decks (short of inkwel and sphinx)

As I said before, here's the decklist from the ducht vintage finals:

Gert Rammeloo – hexdepths second place
4 dark confidant
4 vampire hexmage
4 dark ritual
4 diabolic edict
1 demonic consulation
1 vampiric tutor
1 darkblast
4 duress
4 thoughtseize
1 Yawgmoth's will
1 tendrills of agony
1 demonic tutor
4 null rod
4 chalice of the void
1 necropotence
12 swamp
4 wasteland
2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2 dark depths
1 strip mine

side
4 sadistic sacrement
4 leyline of the void
4 emissary of despair
2 massacre
1 perish

I'll see if I can get him to write a report, but for now this is the decklist.

Greetzzzz,
Robin.

Been awfully quiet around here.

A budget version of this deck made it to the finals at the dutch vintage championship. (no mox, lotus and seal)

I'll post the list here as soon as it comes online, but for what I could tell it was running:

4 chalice + 4 null rod

Didn't run the helmline combo (or the mox jet,imperial seal or black lotus

And it did play at least 1 tendrills as a backup plan.


Greetzzz,
Robin.

I would play some TMWA variant, propably mono red since they are the most stable (and don't catch splash hate in the form of wastelands...).

Something with fast mana in ancient tomb & city of traitors + simmian spirit guide so you do have fast mana to power out fast blood moon's and manic vandal's

Some repetative artifact hate like mox monkey, viashino heretic and shattering spree.

And stuff to clear the way like jitte, burn, or some ping-ing critter

And you could use the open slots for utility like stingscourger, greater gargadon, tunnel ignus,... you name it.

Indeed, the player who apparently barely didn't make Top 8 (he was 3-2 and got 9th) said it was on there, but we simply asked for his decklist so...


Anyway, I really like how it preforms, but we've kicked the gargadons for tunnel ignus who's doing pretty good in testing so far.

Funny, since we and our team have been testing a similar deck for about 2 weeks (since we saw it do pretty damn good on a tournament)
Deck: Red Hate

3x Basilisk Collar
1x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Cunning Sparkmage
2x Gorilla Shaman
3x Greater Gargadon
4x Magus of the Moon
4x Manic Vandal
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Figure of Destiny
3x Blood Moon
3x Dead // Gone
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
11x Mountain
2x Shattering Spree

//Sideboard
3x Null Rod
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Tormod’s Crypt
1x Goblin Bombardment
2x Pyroblast
3x Red Elemental Blast

Display Deck Statistics

the shop , tezz and ichorid matchup are pretty damn good, the fish matchup is also heavily in our favor, only oath (but that deck isn't putting up numbers in our meta) and storm combo are pretty rough, but both of them rarely show up atm...

If I would pick up your list I would definitely kick the gathan raiders (they do 'nothing, and with chalice for 0 you need to hardcast them...) and ad manic vandal, that guy's so damn good for me atm...

Hy, I'm trying to build a mono white hate deck but O've stubled upon the problem that almost EVERYTHING that does something relevant/disruption cost's 2 mana (cannonist, pony, the new leonin, samurai,...... you name it)  But the problem is that since it's a budget deck the only acceleration it an play is chrome mox/petal and you just can't relyably cast these things from your first turn.

So if people can help me make a list of disruptive and functional 1CMC cards that are worth playing in a mono white weeny/hate deck (hatebear.dec)

so far I've got:
icatian javelineers
Children of korlis
silence/orim's chant

I would rather play samurai of the pale curtain then jothun grunt .

And definitely play thorn of amethyst next to the glowrider.

I think you might what to check the "The Mountains Win Again" (TMWA) thread, as this deck has a lot of similarities with it.

Personally I don't think you need jothun grunt for yardhate when you have so many better options for GY hate in black, so maybe you can run grim lavamancer instead. It also improves your fish matchup

Allright, Seems like they just printed a verry viable mud answer for trygon:

Steel Hellkite   6
Artifact Creature - Dragon    Rare
Flying

2: Steel Hellkite gets +1/+0 until end of turn.

: Destroy each nonland permanent with converted mana cost X whose controller was dealt combat damage by Steel Hellkite this turn. Activate this ability only once each turn.

Illus. James Paick #205/249   5/5

Definitly playable if you ask me.

I woudl definetly advise to run at least 1 Engineered Explosives in the sideboard vs Shop decks as it it one of the few things that can get rid of chalice @2 for mono black decks.

Only problem is that you need your wastelands/strip mine to set it at 0 when there are sphere's on the field...

Sorry, my bad, fixed it.

Also added lotus pettal to the list.

Okay these statement's may be obvious, but to me, this is what I've been stuck with:

The basic skeleton:
 
4 Null Rod   (short of the mirror and ichorid you ALWAYS want this in your deck)
4 Tarmogoyf      

4 Simian Spirit Guide   
4 Elvish Spirit Guide   
 
4 Wasteland   
1 Strip Mine   

1 Lotus Petal
4 Wooded Foothills   
2 Taiga   
3 Forest   
3 Mountain   

The problem I have with this deck is that the other cards are almost all-way's 50/50 cards, (okay creature's "all-way's" have a use, but might as-well play grizzly bears if you want to argue about that)

So how do you balance your deck say... if you go to a tournament with 300+ players? I mean it's impossible to metagame, so my question is:

What would be a "allround" list for an unknown metagame?


Greetzzzzzzz,
Robin.

I9 really like the article and actually hope that these kind of article's appear more often since I'm a beginning vintage player myself.

But there are some things I don't quite agree on:


These I can agree on, definitely the the decks that are easily accessible for those that want to start with vintage

but:


I don't get how this deck is a good starter, without doubt ichorid is way more easily accessible (give like 30 euro's for chalice's and leyline's, and get the rest for pretty much a penny while you can easily proxy bazaar) and even before you could consider ichorid,  GW(B) (Meandeck) Beatz is also pretty accessible if you already have the manabase.


Other than that, damn good article, since it give's a good insight about how the decks work.

I play something like this, but I play a full suite of null rod and chalice to negate this small problem...

between naturalize and seal I's go for seal simply because you can use enlightened tutor to find it

And the new 1CC naturalize will definitely rock in vintage... (grip will stay in legacy since countertop is a real menace there)

By winning with tendrils you kind of dont need to stay in the game...

Annyway, enough with the flaming (on my behalf, I just can't help it), since we obviously disagree.

Atm I'm testing the build with the maindeck leyline and helm, and have to say I like it so far... ichorid becomes a better matchup (however you still keep the sideboard jailers), tezz doesn't like this much must counters (okay here you obviously miss null rod, but you can win about as fast as they can unless they go broken, but then again, so can you), and the sideboard can easily be tuned to fight off shop and fish, and use the open slot's to nuke tezz if you think it's needed.

Except like... not needing will (or mana for that matter) to flashback cabal therapy so you can up the storm count (for free).

So this does have something to doe with the tendrils plan.

This depends on how often you plan to use tendrills as a finisher, since pithing needle on hexmage is something you can't to much about. So It make's the tendrill kill easier...

If you don't play tendrills then by any means go for the 4 thoughtseize, cause then you realy want to get rid of their removal/bounce, since the only thing you need to worry about by going tendrills is essentialy stifle, FoW and mana drain  (since it's mid late game you usualy have enough mane to play arond daze, and spell pierce)

Here's what I'm curently runing:

1x     Black Lotus     (Proxy)
1x    Lotus Petal    
1x    Mox Jet    (Proxy)

3x    Null Rod    

4x    Dark Confidant    
4x    Gatekeeper of Malakir    
4x    Vampire Hexmage

1x    Necropotence    
4x    Dark Ritual

1x    Demonic Consultation    
1x    Vampiric Tutor

2x    Dark Depths    
1x    Strip Mine    
1x     Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
13x    Swamp
4x    Wasteland    

3x    Cabal Therapy    
1x    Demonic Tutor
4x    Duress    
1x    Imperial Seal   (Proxy)
3x    Sadistic Sacrament    
1x    Tendrils of Agony    
1x    Yawgmoth’s Will    

Sideboard
2x    Crucible of Worlds
4x    Bitterblossom       
2x    Umezawa’s Jitte    
3x    Phyrexian Negator    
2x    Yixlid Jailer
2x    Ravenous Trap


3 sacrament feels like the right number since it's dead weight in the fish mirror, and the shop matchup, same goes for null rod, and you run 4 tutor's to get them pretty reliably

the tendrils kill has been very helpful to get those last points of damage in when going weeny (therapy+creature's make free storm, which is a plus)

The sideboard is geared for the fish mirror (bring in more creauure's+jitte) and shop matchup (crucible, bitterblossom, and anything to replace dead cards, and is a permanent)

Ichorid is still iffy, but maybe I'll cut the GY hate cards for leyline+helm combo (need to cut something to fit in the helm)

Obviously if I'm playing in a non proxy event the seal becomes a 4th null rod and the power pieces become plain old basic swamps, the deck'll still work good enough (just doesn't go broken on turn 1 without ritual)