[Discussion] Should the number of proxies be increased?

[Dante]

....You buy cards and you can always use them...

Well, that's only semi true - you CAN use them, but it doesn't mean you SHOULD use them.  Certain cards like Brainstorm, Goblin Welder, and Tog will always be good for various format reasons (lots of ways to draw cards and feed the tog, the huge number of artifacts in Vintage), but a lot of the other cards "rotate" out simply by the fact that the deck they were in isn't really competitive anymore (of course that doesn't stop you from playing it, but I'm assuming people are making some attempt to win).

For example look at Natuko Shade and Jackal Pup and morphling.  Once format staples, now you'll rarely see these in a competitive deck (Morphling moreso than the others).  Same thing with the kill condition in Keeper (morphling -> Goblin Trenches -> Decree of Justice); as more efficient kill cards come along, the old one will "rotate" out.  The actual "rotation" wasn't hard set like is in in other formats (i.e. it takes a couple years, maybe less so now that Vintage is "speeding up").

Bill

[Smash]

Either 10 - or pre-legends only. People proxying fetchlands and Sol Rings is just sickening.

Is it?

Person A proxies Black Lotus because they are too lazy to trade/work for one.

I proxy a fetchland because I only have a playset, and a team-mate needs them for a PTQ the same weekend.

Both are due to laziness, you can't(shouldn't) allow one without the other.

[jpmeyer]

I've proxied Oxidize as one of my 10 proxies because the store was all out.

[Klep]

Either 10 - or pre-legends only. People proxying fetchlands and Sol Rings is just sickening.

Is it?

Person A proxies Black Lotus because they are too lazy to trade/work for one.

I proxy a fetchland because I only have a playset, and a team-mate needs them for a PTQ the same weekend.

Both are due to laziness, you can't(shouldn't) allow one without the other.

Except that 'too lazy to raise $500 for a card that only has a few tens of thousands in existance' is far different from 'too lazy to raise $10 for a card that has a few millions in existance.'

  And seriously, there are a gajillion Sol Rings out there.  There really is no excuse for not having one.

[FORCE-OF-WILL]

None, this is T1, if you can't make the investment then go pick another hobby/game, i'm 17 and I worked to get all my Power. If a 17 year old runt with no job can do it then almost anyone can.  And no, my parents did not help pay for my cards..

Yes you're 17, cry me a river how its so hard not paying rent/insurance/carpayment/taxes....etc

The tournies we run at my store are  limited to cards that sell for $45 or more....

This allows more players to get in on the fun, but doesnt hurt sales (ie: people proxying fetches...etc)

I love the people that are worried about "PTQ players" coming in and winning a tournament in "a format that they haven't put the time into."  There are just so many fun things wrong with that statement.

Sorry for the double post....

But what exacly is wrong with "PTQ players"
Im worthless in some peoples eyes becasue I play in and do well in mainstream constructed magic? I agree with JP completely.

Posts merged.
-Jacob

[Meddling Mike]

The whole pre-legends proxying is really not such a good idea in my opinion. It'll simply hurt the value of those cards far more than they deserve. Being able to proxy up the random crap cards is kind of an added benefit of setting the proxy number up to 10 or 15, if you've already made the investment to get power, that's like ten less cards that you would need to pay out for when you want to build a new deck. So upping the standard number to ten isn't entirely without benefits for the powered players, and getting hands on power still has a nice benefit over simply eternally proxying power.

[Smash]

Except that 'too lazy to raise $500 for a card that only has a few tens of thousands in existance' is far different from 'too lazy to raise $10 for a card that has a few millions in existance.'

  And seriously, there are a gajillion Sol Rings out there.  There really is no excuse for not having one.

Do you realize what money is? It is what the lack of laziness produces. You are lazy -> you are poor. You work hard -> you are rich. If you aren't lazy, you can work and buy power cards with spare money EASILY, even at todays prices. If you are lazy, you will complain about the price no matter what.

[theorigamist]

Do you realize what money is? It is what the lack of laziness produces. You are lazy -> you are poor. You work hard -> you are rich. If you aren't lazy, you can work and buy power cards with spare money EASILY, even at todays prices. If you are lazy, you will complain about the price no matter what.

This is very flawed logic.  Even assuming that lack of laziness will lead directly to making money (in other words, ignoring a million other factors and seeing the world in black and white), you would have to agree that $500 worth of work necessarily takes 50 times as much work as making $10.  That's a huge difference.

[Smash]

Do you realize what money is? It is what the lack of laziness produces. You are lazy -> you are poor. You work hard -> you are rich. If you aren't lazy, you can work and buy power cards with spare money EASILY, even at todays prices. If you are lazy, you will complain about the price no matter what.

This is very flawed logic.  Even assuming that lack of laziness will lead directly to making money (in other words, ignoring a million other factors and seeing the world in black and white), you would have to agree that $500 worth of work necessarily takes 50 times as much work as making $10.  That's a huge difference.

So why should I cater my tournament to someone who is just more lazy?

[FORCE-OF-WILL]

So why should I cater my tournament to someone who is just more lazy?[/quote]

You dont, just dont be suprised when people dont like your tourney.

[jpmeyer]

STOP[/color]

[DavidHernandez]

at a recent tourney, UnstableCornbread proxied a Basic Swamp using a real Morphling by writing the word 'swamp' on a scrap of paper and sticking it into the sleeved Morphling...

Now, in my opinion, that deserves STYLE points!

JP: I also had to proxy an Oxidize because no one (including the store owner) had one.

I think 5-10 proxies of ANY card are fine, but not more.  

Dave.

[UnstableCornbread]

Why thank you Mr Hernadez, the more style points I can get the better for all.

I personally think five proxies should be plenty for most players to stand a "fighting" chance vs. most decks. Any more than that you are taking the advantage the people with real power have and deserve to have; for taking the time/money to acquire a play set.

P.s. it was  Chinese Morphling (:

[kl0wn]

I personally think five proxies should be plenty for most players to stand a "fighting" chance vs. most decks. Any more than that you are taking the advantage the people with real power have and deserve to have; for taking the time/money to acquire a play set.

Best argument against proxies ever. You get a cookie. And a gold star.

[ctthespian]

I personally think five proxies should be plenty for most players to stand a "fighting" chance vs. most decks. Any more than that you are taking the advantage the people with real power have and deserve to have; for taking the time/money to acquire a play set.

Best argument against proxies ever. You get a cookie. And a gold star.

So true, so true.  It's been said before and ignored so we all make up long winded arguments now.

-Keith

[jpmeyer]

So basically, mise well get angry at the people that invest their time in getting better rather than in getting power?

<jeek> I don't think Magic should be a game where you win because you threw more money at it.

[jeek]

So basically, mise well get angry at the people that invest their time in getting better rather than in getting power?

<jeek> I don't think Magic should be a game where you win because you threw more money at it.

Dammit JP, you quoted me out of context. By including that line, and nothing else, the whole "It isn't really that wrong to dress up like a Squirtle to get a 5/m in the sack" argument isn't even mentioned!

[Irish31]

I have full power, and have owned it for some time now. I did put up a fairly hefty initial investment, but I did trade for half of my power as well.

I "wanted" it badly enough to go to a few tournaments just to help my trade fooder to pick them up, and I did eventually.

I am totally ok for the 5 proxy rule, which is what I voted for. The argument on the difference from 5-10 proxy's being 1000$ if valid, although to me 10 would totally, absofreakinglutely, be the cut off point.

In Ontario we have a circuit of modified T1 events where nothing is proxied, and power is not allowed in most of them, but the best decks are always piloted by a fairly consistent group of us running Bazaar's or Workshops.

Why? Because the cards are very good, Loa is very good. But no one seems to complain and when we bring in 130 people to each event, no one is going to complain either.

I can only speak for my area really, but around here there are some 5 proxy tourneys and the result has been fairly positive,  so I see no need to go up. I think no proxies just seems a bit arrogant, since 5 proxies has been initiated, it obviously hasn't hurt the value of power, there is no reason to at least not look at 10.

My only fear would be when is "enough"?. I don't want to devalue our cards, the real ones, and the total peak of irony would be playing in an all or almost all proxy tourney, with unlimited proxies, with proxied power, to win a real Ancestral.

Then the kid gets it, smiles, and then is like "eh, I'll just put it away for a collector's item, the paper Ancestral did me good enough".

You'd be better off having a gift certificate for Mcd's as first prize, that can't be so easily substituted and hey, everyone likes Rotton Ronny's right?

I say five is good but the idea of ten is plausible.

Jay

[Charlie]

0 or unlimited. People would play regardless if they're allowed to proxy power or not, but if you allow proxy I'd just take it to full.

[kl0wn]

I would actually be very much in favor of an "earn your proxies" system, where everyone who wishes to proxy a card may proxy one for every Top 8 or Top 16 finish they've made in a semi-large tournament. Of course, that would be a logistical nightmare, but hey, we're being idealistic, right?

[Justinsane]

I have had a couple of ideas about proxying.  I own no power and i don't think ill be getting any soon.  

What if you could use unlimited proxies, but the prize give out for someone using a proxied deck would be less then someone who actually owns the cards.

What about a system where you have to pay extra to be allowed to proxy?

I don't know those ideas might be stupid, but i guess ill go with the five proxy rule.  I dont enjoy ten proxies cause it allows random people to netdeck slavery.

[theorigamist]

I would actually be very much in favor of an "earn your proxies" system, where everyone who wishes to proxy a card may proxy one for every Top 8 or Top 16 finish they've made in a semi-large tournament. Of course, that would be a logistical nightmare, but hey, we're being idealistic, right?

I don't see how this could work.  Do you then half to take in to account the quality of the metagame of the tournaments won/T8ed/T16ed?  Do you have to take into account the size of the tournament?  Et cetera.  It doesn't take much to win in randomscrub.metagame in some crappy local store enough to be able to proxy up as much as you want.

What if you could use unlimited proxies, but the prize give out for someone using a proxied deck would be less then someone who actually owns the cards.

As far as I know, one of the reasons for going to a proxy tournament is so you can win the power prize and not have to proxy any more, correct?  Not getting said power at the end kind of defeats the purpose, or at least drastically slows down that person's full entry into Type 1.  

What about a system where you have to pay extra to be allowed to proxy?

Aren't people proxying (generally speaking; I'm aware sometimes people proxy just cause they can't get a card they need, like the people talking about Oxidize above) because they can't afford extra?

[ctthespian]

Systems put in place to counteract or balance the use of proxies will just be too unwieldy and confusing.  The issue is the number of proxies to allow not coming up with penalties or amendments to tournament rules for proxy users.  The “earn your proxies” idea is also somewhat flawed in logic, because many fully powered decks don't even reach top 8 in larger events.  Not that power is necessary to make a top 8 spot, but if a person can make top 8 or top 16 out of 170+ people they shouldn't be complaining anyway.

UnstableCornbread stated the issue very clearly on the earlier page that five proxies allow for a competitive deck to be constructed that gives the player a shot at expanding his collection if they win.

Justinsane:
I don't know those ideas might be stupid, but i guess ill go with the five proxy rule. I don’t enjoy ten proxies cause it allows random people to netdeck slavery.

This is another reason I'm against upping proxy limits.  If we increase the proxy limits we allow people to "net-deck" more and further perpetuate the cycle of less innovation in the game.

-Keith

[jpmeyer]

This is another reason I'm against upping proxy limits. If we increase the proxy limits we allow people to "net-deck" more and further perpetuate the cycle of less innovation in the game.

I don't get it.  We've established that budget decks are just way inferior to powered decks, but if people will never have access to full power or Workshops or whatever, how do we expect them to innovate with decks that really actually could be potential contenders?

[Thissa]

Sigh... The objective of proxies here is to prevent metagame distortion. Alright, who likes that? Most of you do, thats good. If you don't, then you should know that some people have only just enough $$$ to barely cover the cost of online trading + just a few cards + tournament entry fees + non-magic related stuff. Proxyless environments are just unfair to 14 year olds such as myself. I can only afford what MOTL and maybe a $15-$30 cash investment can cover, which is pretty much everything that I can build with 5 proxies with duals being the most expensive cards I need to obtain. 'Nuff said about that.

However, the question is, how many proxies should be allowed?

Er, well, I don't think there is a correct number. I agree that proxying fetchlands etc goes a bit too far, ESPECIALLY if the sets are still in print or if they are commons. Therefore I think that there should be a certain list of cards that can be proxied, i.e, $30+ cards according to MOTL values. This would cover pretty much everything from Berserks on up.