Fundamental change of the fish archetype

[Guli]

What about just using Magus of the Unseen to untap and steal time vaults? Or prevent them from coming into play in the first place? I don't think anyone would drop Vault with a magus and 1U untapped on the table. It's also a wizard so it can be sacced to voidmage if necessary.

Sure that does make things hard for the opponent to finish of but if they keep their stuff in their hand you can't really do that much with magus. It doesn't seem to add to the game plan, getting the combo.

// Lands
    4 Island
    1 Swamp
    3 Underground Sea
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Flooded Strand

    1 Tolarian Academy

    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mana vault
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Mox Pearl

// Control

    4 Duress
    4 Force of Will
    4 Muddle the Mixture

// Creatures
    4 Trinket Mage
    1 Inkwell Leviathan/Darksteel Colossus
    4 Dark Confidant
    2 Voidmage Prodigy

// Sorcery/Instant

    1 Brainstorm
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Imperial Seal
    1 Tinker
    1 Hurkyl's Recall

// Artifact

    1 Time Vault
    1 Voltaic Key
    1 Sensei's Divining Top

// Sideboard
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Extirpate
1 Tormod's Crypt   
1 Perish
1 Virtue's Ruin
2 Pithing Needle
2 Yixlid Jailer
2 Spell Snare

10 (11) Creatures, not exaclty the amount in a normal fish list. This list resembles a lot on the SS if we look at creature base. I see dimir cutpurse in SS, but i think confidant is stronger. Voidmage was too much as 4x. I loved to have 1 though it is a very useful card.

I don't think Tezz is suited, without drains or rituals it seems hard to run.

[Mr. Type 4]

I had great success running Confidants to help get Time Vault combo together.  It's a solid idea. 

I've taken that 9 damage from Inkwell Leviathan enough times to know that taking 11 from DSC is probably not worth it.

This deck is pretty far removed from Fish in that the creatures dont really disrupt.  This deck is also really invested in finding the combo, which could actually weaken it overall.  Sometimes getting TV together isn't very plauseable, and your secondary plan here is kinda weak.  I think a more traditional build with like Meddling Mages and TV Combo included is also possible. 

The tough questions:
Is trinket mage going to be better than straight-up card drawing?  it tutors for Key, Top, Lotus... seems lacking. 

Is Muddle the Mixture going to ultimately be better than just running Drains?

[AmbivalentDuck]

I don't think Tezz is suited, without drains or rituals it seems hard to run.

Which begs the question of whether or not you should be running Drains to facilitate Trinket Mages and Tez.

Magus of the Unseen is a potent counter to others' Vaults.  Even after they activate it, you basically 'win in response' since the most recently created turns will be taken first.  See rule 300.6.  The opponent simply cannot drop a Vault or DSC with it in play.  That said, 'Fish' as a concept really likes tapping out.  That's probably why nobody runs this in, say, Selkie Strike's sb.

[Guli]

The advantage of trinket is that he can get a key straight away. Just like the Muddle the Mixture can get the vault. I guess my strongest argument in this case would be versatility. The combination of trinket and Muddle the Mixture puts a little bit more strength to the deck. Next to the normal tutors there are 8 additional tutors that can be used as a wall to edict for example to support your Tinker plan. Mana can't get vault. But it does get in a quicker tezz or fuels quicker TFK's. I am not claiming that Muddle the Mixture is better than mana drain.

I said that this wont be a classical fish variant. Draw/Tutor/Counter are the properties I want in the creature base. Why waste time on 2/2 bears when you can simply play with a huge amount of tutors/counters/bombs and keep the element of beat in it but without emphasizing it. There are other threads for the 'traditional' fish with 'Goyf and I am by no means saying or claiming those decks are bad, but I am authentically looking for alternatives to null rod and why would I waste time on other activated abilities when i got T/V (Harlequin)

[Lurker101]

This is looking less and less like fish and more and more like just another Vault/Key deck. I really think you should at least consider Magus in the sideboard, she's not null rod but can be extremely disruptive to artifact based decks especially the in the Vault/Key mirror.

[AmbivalentDuck]

If your goal is to quickly assemble and play the Vault-Key combo, why aren't you running stronger protection like Xantid Swarm?  Every Duress/FoW you draw has to be used as offensively as possible given that all of your threats are sorcery speed and susceptible to the format's most common hate.

[Mr. Type 4]

I think Magus of the Unseen sucks.  It's worse than straight-up artifact removal like Disenchant.  The problem is Summoning Sickness - I almost never run my Time Vault out there unless I'm going to go infinite this turn or next turn.  SO if your Magus isn't already there when I play Tez, then it's probably not going to stop me.  If it IS already there then I will need to kill it first, just like any number of other things you could play, like Pithing Needle.  This will be worse than Pithing Needle, though, because if you're already playing a bunch of dudes, I'm going to bring in my anti-creature suite of cards - so killing the Magus shouldn't be that hard.  It might even backfire in this deck - if I steal the Magus with Threads of Disloyalty, then suddenly you can't combo out against me.

[Shock Wave]

I think Magus of the Unseen sucks.  It's worse than straight-up artifact removal like Disenchant.  The problem is Summoning Sickness - I almost never run my Time Vault out there unless I'm going to go infinite this turn or next turn.  SO if your Magus isn't already there when I play Tez, then it's probably not going to stop me.  If it IS already there then I will need to kill it first, just like any number of other things you could play, like Pithing Needle.  This will be worse than Pithing Needle, though, because if you're already playing a bunch of dudes, I'm going to bring in my anti-creature suite of cards - so killing the Magus shouldn't be that hard.  It might even backfire in this deck - if I steal the Magus with Threads of Disloyalty, then suddenly you can't combo out against me.

This card is indeed terrible, for all the reasons stated above. This card is decent (at best) against Workshop Aggro. Against everything else, it is very weak. It is a very dated disruption choice, both in terms of effectiveness and general application.

[Guli]

If your goal is to quickly assemble and play the Vault-Key combo, why aren't you running stronger protection like Xantid Swarm?  Every Duress/FoW you draw has to be used as offensively as possible given that all of your threats are sorcery speed and susceptible to the format's most common hate.

This is a serious suggestion. It is a creature so it will be more 'fishy'. People seem to be disturbed by me calling this T/V version with creatures fish. It is kind of what I am trying to do, change the perspective of fish. Or better said, taking new perspectives into consideration and exploring them giving fish a new angle.

I do understand the criticism though. Maybe I should use another term. But I kinda like "vault fish".

Green for swarm. What is next adding 'Goyf? I do like the effect very much though. Unlike the magus of the unseen the Xantid Swarm can support the goal very effectively making Voidmage kinda useless. Do note that Muddle the Mixture tutor ability is not affected to counter spells anyway.

Without a lot of draw, besides confidants, it might be wise to have a global flying shusher that is free on the board. In a normal fish Xantid won't cut it i guess. But it fits the theme and goals of this deck idea very well. Why? Because you just want your bombs to resolve and when they do you win. In that respect, [I wonder how Xantid would work out instead of vials to combat mana drain. With Exalted the swarm can still beat for 2 (good when their is a stalemate on ground).]

Trinket, Xantid, Confidant. Interesting creature base. But a logical one when there is a T/V luring around the corner.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

If your goal is to quickly assemble and play the Vault-Key combo, why aren't you running stronger protection like Xantid Swarm?  Every Duress/FoW you draw has to be used as offensively as possible given that all of your threats are sorcery speed and susceptible to the format's most common hate.

Green for swarm. What is next adding 'Goyf? I do like the effect very much though. Unlike the magus of the unseen the Xantid Swarm can support the goal very effectively making Voidmage kinda useless. Do note that Muddle the Mixture tutor ability is not affected to counter spells anyway.

Without a lot of draw, besides confidants, it might be wise to have a global flying shusher that is free on the board. In a normal fish Xantid won't cut it i guess. But it fits the theme and goals of this deck idea very well. Why? Because you just want your bombs to resolve and when they do you win. In that respect, [I wonder how Xantid would work out instead of vials to combat mana drain. With Exalted the swarm can still beat for 2 (good when their is a stalemate on ground).]

Trinket, Xantid, Confidant. Interesting creature base. But a logical one when there is a T/V luring around the corner.

If you're going to run Xantid Swarm just make this a pure combo deck. There is a reason no Fish deck runs Xantid, it doesn't beat. If your deck isn't going to be designed to be flexible like Bomberman and have a strong beat plan A backed by a combo plan B (or vice-versa depending on the build) then seriously stop wasting time with creatures and just run Grim Tutors if you want to just assemble the combo as fast as possible. For this deck to work you have to prove that its better than the currently tier 1.5-2 Bomberman. To be perfectly honest with you, I just don't see that happening because you're running almost no creatures and most of the few you run are things that even standard Tezz decks have ran. (Outside of just plain bad ideas like Xantid Swarm.[whos only purpose should ever be in a pure combo deck]) I think you're sorely mistaken in considering aggro-combo-control as Fish rather than Bomberman and this seems like a step backwards rather than forwards in that archetype. You're slower than Tezz, run less protection than combo, and don't have any aggro lock pieces. I mean, what exactly are you trying to do?

For those that are going to attack the whole naming thing, this isn't like I'm splitting hairs. These are two completely seperate archetypes and in order to try and build a deck you have to first come up with a clear goal rather than splapping together cards that just look good. Do you want to make this a combo deck? Run Grim Tutors and Rituals and cut the crappy creatures. Do you want this to be Fish? Cut Key/Vault. Do you want this to be Bomberman? Look for some actual utility creatures and stop running crap like Muddle the Mixture.

10 (11) Creatures, not exaclty the amount in a normal fish list. This list resembles a lot on the SS if we look at creature base. I see dimir cutpurse in SS, but i think confidant is stronger. Voidmage was too much as 4x. I loved to have 1 though it is a very useful card.

SS ran Confidant also and yeah it looks like SS if you just look at the number of creatures. However, when you look at EVERYTHING (metagame, spells, game plan, creature goals, lock pieces, etc.) else it is just so completely far off that the comparison implies you know nothing about the deck. I mean I was on board at the start in the hopes that maybe some useful tech would come out of discussion, but the direction this deck is going is just terrible in my opinion.

This is a serious suggestion. It is a creature so it will be more 'fishy'. People seem to be disturbed by me calling this T/V version with creatures fish. It is kind of what I am trying to do, change the perspective of fish. Or better said, taking new perspectives into consideration and exploring them giving fish a new angle.

What you have there isn't Fish, not even close. This won't change the perspective on Fish at all. Your "idea" already exists and its called Bomberman. I would remake this thread and start from there or I don't think you'll go anywhere. You can name it whatever you want, its your deck and nobody can/should stop you. However, stop getting the actual ARCHETYPE confused. This. Isn't. Fish.

I had great success running Confidants to help get Time Vault combo together.  It's a solid idea. 

I've taken that 9 damage from Inkwell Leviathan enough times to know that taking 11 from DSC is probably not worth it.

This deck is pretty far removed from Fish in that the creatures dont really disrupt.  This deck is also really invested in finding the combo, which could actually weaken it overall.  Sometimes getting TV together isn't very plauseable, and your secondary plan here is kinda weak.  I think a more traditional build with like Meddling Mages and TV Combo included is also possible. 

The tough questions:
Is trinket mage going to be better than straight-up card drawing?  it tutors for Key, Top, Lotus... seems lacking. 

Is Muddle the Mixture going to ultimately be better than just running Drains?

That.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Honestly, I see Xantids as a valid alternative to Vexing Shusher.  Since he's trying to resolve most of his draw and threat base at sorcery speed, Xantids help him to play his very offensive game.  He'll never outcombo 'good' combo and he'll never out control Selkie Strike or Tez.

If the question isn't "Is this deck worth testing," but instead "Can you make sorcery speed control less crappy?" Xantids are a clear solution to the sorcery speed dilemma.  They let him use his Duresses and FoWs almost purely offensively.  With Xantids, he could actually consider Ninja of Deep Hours, too.  It's blue, dodges Chalice@2, and draws about as well as Confidant.

Building this myself, I'd consider Xantids and Cursecatchers as aggressive 1-drops, Ninja and Confidant as two drops, heavy use of pitch counters, and heavy tutoring.

Having agreed that this sucks already, it's still an interesting exercise to push it as far as it will go.

Mana
    1 Island
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Underground Sea
    3 Polluted Delta
    3 Flooded Strand
    1 Mana Vault
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Black Lotus

Creatures
    4 Dark Confidant
    4 Xantid Swarm
    4 Cursecatcher
    3 Ninja of the Deep Hours

Spells
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Force of Will
    2 Misdirection

    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Imperial Seal
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Tezzeret the Seeker
    1 Tinker
   
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk
    1 Hurkyl's Recall
    1 Oxidize

    1 Voltaic Key
    1 Time Vault
    1 Yawgmoth's Will

[Guli]

Confusion is good, it means you are thinking.

Nobody is attacking anything at all. And neither am I at the helm determining the direction. I am just like you replying to some suggestions and card idea's.

Xantid Swarm: This card can be interpreted as a walking force/chant/whatever in the right deck. In a combo deck he fills in that role.

What am I trying to do?

Confdiant is a creature, Trinket Mage is a creature. I honestly don't care what the name is. Seriously. I see useful creatures that help me finding my bombs and win conditions.

rather than splapping together cards that just look good

Those cards are not just to be used in a certain archetype.

Why are you so biased anyway? How many times do I have to repeat myself that I don't to deal damage to win if I can get my combo around turn 3-4 WITH the help of my CREATURES? What is wrong with utilizing creatures to draw, tutor, counter? Why does it suddenly make it a non-fish? Because there is no big fat body involved? Guess what, even tarm is usually not fast enough and he is the fastest you will get as a clock. Time vault has no clock, it cheats time.

I ll look at the list i posted (not saying this is the deck in its ultimate state) to make a preliminary attempt.

// Lands
    2 Island
    1 Swamp
    3 Underground Sea
    4 Polluted Delta
    1 Flooded Strand
    2 Tropical Island

    1 Tolarian Academy

    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Mana vault
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Mox Pearl

// Control

    4 Duress Cabal Therapy
    4 Force of Will
    2 Muddle the Mixture

// Creatures
    4 Trinket Mage
    4 Dark Confidant
    3 Voidmage Prodigy Xantid Swarm

// Sorcery/Instant

    1 Brainstorm
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Imperial Seal
    1 Tinker
    1 Hurkyl's Recall
    1 Tezzeret

// Artifact

    1 Time Vault
    1 Voltaic Key
    1 Memory Jar
    1 Sensei's Divining Top

Now say we replace the prodigy with Xantid Swarm and cut a muddle in the process. Make a tiny adjustment to the mana base. Is this really going to hurt the deck? Tezz is 5 mana to get in time vault. Muddle is also 5 mana to get in time vault. (This comparison is only related to the mana investment aspect.)

Another thing, memory jar might be the better choice here as a tinker target.

@AmbivalentDuck
I am amazed by your suggestions. Really innovative. I don't agree on using things like cursecatcher and ninja though but the fact that you say cabal therapy, nice...

Creatures and combo means cabal therapy. Of course. Another little tweak that will justify using creatures (whom you don't need to win, well just 1 after T/V).
And a way to get rid of confidant, nice touch.

[smasher]

If the creatures are in the deck to accelerate the combo I feel tezz lists are already doing it better. If the creatures are in the deck to win with after time vault is assembled I would rather see a tezz style deck with a couple trinket mages thrown in as extra tutors.

I don't have a problem with a creature deck that leads to a combo but mostly what I keep seeing is this...I don't want creatures to win with. They are in the deck to help pull off the win.

Trinket mage is sick and I advocated for him early on. He is a good fit because when played he gets half your combo immediately into hand with the bonus of being a win con after both halves are assembled.

Dark confidant is a nice card advantage engine as well but when comparing it to thirst for knowledge, thirst wins. Tap out to play bob and give up counter mana or play an eot thirst and actually see 3 cards deeper 3 turns sooner is a clear winner. Dark confidant works in "fish" decks because he is supported by real lock pieces that buy you the time to draw your extra cards and get in the red zone with him and other critters. I dare say playing dark confidant in almost any stage of the game is a mistake that will probably cost you the game. If we include dark confidant then we also need an answer to him. After going infinite turns there is good potential to die to bob flips.

Xantid swarm looks bad considering he doesn't enable a kill after time vault combo is online. true you have time to draw and play your threat to kill with but he is purely protection. I'd rather run duress which can be protection and disruption. If cabal therapy is included that would be another reason to run duress. As it is I just don't see enough disruption to win before you lose first. Tezz lists generally run 9 counters in 4 fow, 4 drain, 1 misdirection. On top of digging like crazy so they see multiple of these counter spells early on.

One last note about calling a deck like this a variant of fish is the major problem that fish decks are generally metagamed hate/disruption decks regardless of what colors the fish build runs. I'd guess making a new thread titled closer to what the deck is actually trying to become would do a couple things for you.

1) Since you want to run a creature combo deck it would stop discussion from fish players suggesting commonly played fish cards.
2) You may also attract other people to the thread that aren't interested in playing/developing a fish-combo deck.

[AmbivalentDuck]

After going infinite turns there is good potential to die to bob flips.

Consider something like Echoing Truth or Ninja of the Deep Hours.


We all know this is a bad deck, but the idea is to take creature enabled sorcery speed combo as far as it will go.  Cabal Therapy and Xantid are a must.  Cursecatcher provides critical protection against Ichy game 1 and functions very offensively against other combo-control, filling Daze's typical role.  With Cursecatcher and Xantid, Ninja is a natural inclusion and guarantees you the best conceivable draw engine against non-fish decks, bounces Bob, and doesn't kill you.

[Guli]

I kind of agree on Confidant though. Not because of the potential that he can kill you with infinite, will never happen with things like cabal or prodigy. But I do agree on the tempo loss. He doesn't dig/draw quick enough. He is excellent in slower games though. Even if there are a lot of ways to get the combo very fast, the deck doesn't necessarily need to go rush to it. Only if you can clearly see that the opponent has no way to deal with it you can assemble quickly. But mostly they do run disruption anyway so you need something to fall back to. Either you add more protection or bombs, or you go with confidants who will guarantee cards and will seal the deal eventually. But isn't it at the same time natural that a fish deck, playing with the vault combo will be less faster than a pure combo deck. Speed is not that big of an issue if you can control the game until the combo hits.

So the game plan is not to beat the 20 life away but to find the combo. Which one is quicker and more effective? I understand the dilemma and the issues here. Maybe it is physically not possible. Because if you want to go for disruption without null how will you do that? I think it this line of thinking Force of Will and Cabal therapy are the goodies. And this was also one of the reasons I wanted to use muddle, he can either protect/disrupt or go find your win condition.

We all know this is a bad deck

There is no deck yet. Merely suggestions

There is another option. Using creatures that disrupt while assembling the combo. But i thought that would be too hard to combine. Trinket is a creature and finds the combo. So i thought you need things like force/cabal to disrupt and keep the creature base focussed on draw, tutor.

If confidant is not optimal as a creature choice to 'vault-fish' (and then ninja isn't either) then I want to hear alternatives.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Vault Selkie Strike instead of Rods.  That's pretty much strictly inferior, though.

[Stormanimagus]

Vault Selkie Strike instead of Rods.  That's pretty much strictly inferior, though.

Perhaps a Selkie-Strike List running Wargate?

[policehq]

If you have an intrinsic vulnerability to Null Rod anyway, why don't you throw Time Vault and Voltaic Key in an Affinity deck? You can tear through your deck with Thoughtcast and Skullclamp within about three turns as it is, and typically there's also Demonic Tutor, Tinker, the potential for things like Transmute Artifact...

[AmbivalentDuck]

There's a difference between winning slower with Rod out and literally scooping to a resolved Hurkyl's Recall.

[policehq]

There's a difference between winning slower with Rod out and literally scooping to a resolved Hurkyl's Recall.

Please. None of these decks would beat any Rod Aggro.

[Guli]

A lot of assumptions flying around.

I thought about Xantid Swarm. And I have a nagging feeling about him. I will try to explain were that gut feeling comes from.

The lists i posted only have 5-7 cards that are 'newish' the rest is known power that works well to draw/search/control. By using trinket/confidant/muddle in the mix of a strong shell I am trying to maximize my chances to get in T/V while I keep an element of control. Trinket can get top or explosives or even crypt. Muddle can counter serious threats while at the same time able to get a combo piece. Confidant is a very nice long term investment. Because he is long term I was having doubts about him.

After thinking and focusing again on the idea i came with a couple thoughts. Why would this be a super aggressive all in strategy? When did the deck take that direction. The more i think about the speed, the more i want to slow things down. Tezz doesn't rush either unless they see the window of opportunity. They are fine with drain in their hand waiting and casting draw spells EOT. What makes you think that creature based vault/key would be able to be super fast? I didn't take that approach in the beginning at all.

I think the plan A and plan B should be played at the same time. Covering ground on both grounds while you are playing.

Plan A is normally mana denial in fish. With this route it is getting T/V and countering their big threats.

Plan B is beatdown alongside mana denial in normal fish. Now we either keep that plan OR we take up mana denial without  Null Rod. This doesn't sound super great to me but i believe it can be done with daze/curse/strip/stifle/back to basics/Gorilla Shaman/... (I am sure there are cards out there)

Beatdown would mean 'Goyf and with so many spells in the deck he will get big very fast and put additional pressure on the opponent. He has to worry about combo and aggro at the same time. So dropping a 'Goyf in the mix of the tutor plan (I guess the mana can be spared and is worth it? Is it?) is also an option.

Let's just slow down a bit and less focus on specific cards and more focus on the strategies behind vault fish. And let's not be overly judgy here with our comments. I keep hearing 'this is a bad deck', 'this loses to this and that'. Of course it not optimal right now, there is no deck. But there is potential.

[AmbivalentDuck]

There's a difference between winning slower with Rod out and literally scooping to a resolved Hurkyl's Recall.

Please. None of these decks would beat any Rod Aggro.

So?  Most of the format is running maindeck Hurkyl's right now.  The point is having a *low* chance of winning after a Rod gets played vs. literally scooping to hate everyone is running.

[policehq]

There's a difference between winning slower with Rod out and literally scooping to a resolved Hurkyl's Recall.

Please. None of these decks would beat any Rod Aggro.

So?  Most of the format is running maindeck Hurkyl's right now.  The point is having a *low* chance of winning after a Rod gets played vs. literally scooping to hate everyone is running.

"Literally scooping" doesn't mean the same thing as "scooping" figuratively, and isn't as bad. Literally means picking up your cards to your hand (which are all easily playable next turn, except redundant artifact lands), and figuratively means you've conceded the game. Generally if you've gone off enough to have a bunch of artifacts in play, you've had a chance to play a Disciple also, and can cause a lot of loss of life at instant speed.

A lot of assumptions flying around.

Says the person who has no system of values behind any of the decks he posts. You radically change the lists you post which proves that you do little testing and believe very little in your card choices and their importance. If you tested your decks thoroughly and didn't assume things yourself, you wouldn't be so quick to completely change lists by as much as 12 or more cards of one recommendation of a random forum user.

You don't want to see assumptions? Don't post them. Test a deck, make results, THEN post the list and theory.

[Guli]

So what is your system of values, it sounds pretty vague to me. Can you be more concrete. Perhaps I do have my system if you would elaborate I could recognize what you are talking about.

And would you care to explain why you would want to run affinity/vault making you indeed vulnerable to the bounce and null rod.

I am also speaking in my third language here. I know I am making a lot grammar and structure mistakes. But at the least I am here and communicating with people, using this platform to share my thoughts and experience. It might seem to you I have no methods or design systems, but you can't be more wrong.

What lists are you referring to btw, maybe I can defend myself to your accusation.

[Darkenslight]

I wonder if there is a Sage of Fsables list that's usable; especially if you combine it with Hearthstone, to reduce the mana cost of thje ability.

For reference, Sages of fables is a 2U Wizard that makes other Wizards bigger by adding +1/+1 counters, then you can take them off to draw cards.  Then, you could use cards like Thorn of Amethyst as active denial.  Here's a sample list (UWb):

Mana! (21)

3 USea
2 Tundra
3 Strand
3 Delta
2 Island
Plains
Swamp
Sol Ring
B. Lotus
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Sapphire
Mox Emerald
Mox Ruby

Win (3)
Time Vault
Voltaic Key
Tezzeret the Seeker

MANS! (20)

3 Meddling Mage
4 Sage of Fables
3 Aphetto Alchemist
3 Trinket Mage
3 Voidmage Prodigy
4 Cursecatcher

Stuff (16)

4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Sage's Dousing
YawgWin
Tinker
Time Walk
ARecall
4 FoW

Randomly thrown out there.  I know it'sspomewhat weak, but it has building potential...I'll try it out online for a while first.