Full English Breakfast

[TracerBullet]

 

(Looks like a mortician....)



Outside of this being a recently resurrected thread, I see a few problems with the deck.

Hypnox has no reason to be in the sideboard.  It should be MDx100000.  It serves basically the same purpose as Palichron, but is better in that it allows your Shifter to avoid spot removal by removing their hand.  If you can't win with your opponent having no hand, you weren't gonna win anyway.

There's no reason to have two Dreadnoughts, what I assume to be a FLOWSTONE Hellion (Crater Hellion?), AND Phage.  1 Phage, 1 Akroma, and 1 Dreadnought is all that's needed really.  The one dreadnought serves as an alternate way of forcing damage onto your opponent if Akroma is somehow incapacitated, and Phage makes is so if they stop you somehow during the combo, you don't lose your Shapeshifter.  It's huge.

Shorline and Tradewind are both unnecessary.  They should be Wall of Roots (especially in an aggro metagame).

I would consider either dropping the Withered Wretch or making it a Psychatog.  They'll often both serve the same purpose, but I can definately see why you'd want the Wretch.  The question becomes, which will win you the most games?  Psychatog, Withered Wretch, or a Duress?  It's a tough call.

Speaking of Duress, I really want to find room for them.  They're solid gold.  Everything right now is either dramatically hurt or drastically slowed by one, and that should be all you need.

More Moxes are good, but I can see not running them if you don't have room.

[SummenSaugen]

Force of Will is a poor choice of defense for your key spells.  You want something proactive and not reactive so you can do things before worrying about screwing with your graveyard to win the game.  Also, dreadnoughts and the hellion are completely unecessary.  Two phages are a must have, it allows you to recover in games you shouldn't recover from.  

You lack Unearth, which allows you to win without using a second survival chain, and it also allows you to win faster and more efficiently than Palinchron can do.  Hypnox becomes crappy with Unearth, so I won't even run it at all.

You also have too much maindeck utility.  Your sideboarding strategy is mostly just to nullify your opponent's sideboarding strategy.  Board in utility to deal with what you think your opponent is bringing in, in other words.

The seas probably shouldn't be here.  They can't tap for green and therefore suck in a deck with Survival.  Two City of Brass and another fetch would be a good call.  Likewise, your fetches should contain green.  You're running a single basic forest, and you can't even fetch it.

I agree with TracerBullet that your wretch should be psychatog, but I would leave a wretch in the board to bring in against rector based decks.

Hope this helps.

[IvoryGargoyle]

When looking back, I forget who it was, but they said that true FEB was all about fatties. The fact that there is a combo in it was just gravy. So what about something like this?

2 Wooded Foothills
3 Polluted Delta
1 Forest
4 Bayou
3 Underground Sea (necessary if FoW was to be replaced with Duress and/or Cabal Therapy)
4 Tropical Island
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus

4 Birds of Paradise
3 Wall of roots
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Ravenous Baloth
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Flowstone Hellion
1 Crater Hellion
1 Psychatog/Withered Wretch
1 Hypnox
1 Gilded Drake
1 Morphling
4 Volrath's Shapeshifter
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Reya Dawnbringer
1 Phyrexian Dreadnaut

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
4 Brainstorm
4 Survival of the Fittest

Thanx.

[TracerBullet]

Why make your deck bad just to fit a theme?



Anybody?


In addition, why the hell is there a Crater Hellion in your deck?  It's not like you play Birds of Paradise, Quirion Ranger, Wall of Roots, Ravenous Baloth or anything....I fail to see where that could provide any sort of advantage.



There is almost no reason to still play the Hellion/Naught combo anymore.  Akroma/Phage is almost strictly better.\n\n

[Sapromancer]

if you've playtested phage/akroma/inkshrouder, it should be pretty obvious that it is faster, harder to disrupt, and all around better than hellion/nought. hellion nought can fall victem to spot removal, damage prevention, or even a fat blocker. where phage, when inkshrouded cannot be blocked, and cannot be targeted, leaving only sweeping cards such as deed and keg as threats. and thats where duress/cabal therapy come in. also i agree that unearth greatly accelerates the deck, it also lets you throw shapeshifters away to survival, and go off quiicker.

note: my build is similar to iLL_Dawgs exept he runs one less bayou or tropical, and i dont run lim-dul's vault

4x Volrath's ShapeShifter
2x Phage the Untouchable
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Cephalid Inkshrouder
1x Psychatog

4x Birds of Paradise
3x Wall of Roots
2x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Quirion Ranger

4x Survival of the fittest
4x Brainstorm
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Mystical Tutor

4x Unearth
4x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy

1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Emerald
4x Tropical Island
4x Bayou
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Windswept heath
1x Undiscovered Paradise
2x City of Brass

i wont discuss the SB as its largely a metagame call.

my mana base may need some tweaking, but i feel it works pretty well. this version of FEB forgets about the utility and goes for the throught with phage via the speed of unearth, and the mad disruption skills of Duress and Cabal therapy. note Birds of paradise, expended walls of roots and other "mana doods" are good cabal therapy flashback fodder.\n\n

[SummenSaugen]

Note also the only differences between his build and iLL_Dawg's is that iLL's has only the emerald (because you can survival with it) whereas sapromancer is running all three on colors, and sapromancer has cut the brainstorms for a few more mana sources.  Seeing a concensus like this among people that sound like they know what they're talking about (and having seen iLL_Dawg's in action numerous times) leads me to believe this is the 'correct' version of the deck.

[IvoryGargoyle]

See? This is exactly what I'm talking about because the archetype has obviously changed a lot since last I even looked at it. The last time I played it was back in Extended when both Survival and FoW was legel!

I understand what the goal is much more now. Its great to see that the archetype has come much farther. I do have one question though, why the inclusion of Unearth? While its a great card, there aren't that many targets for it. Do you really want to have to bring a Shapeshifter back? Or is it in there just in case they manage to Smother your Shapeshifter, counter him, etc?

Thanks!

[SummenSaugen]

It's there to allow you to win faster and off one survival chain.

G, pitch whatever:  Find shifter
G, pitch shifter:  Find Akroma
B: Put shifter in to play
G, pitch Akroma:  Find Phage
Swing, damage on the stack, G, pitch Phage:  Find Phage#2, good game.

It's also a counterspell for B in many ways.  And it cycles.

[IvoryGargoyle]

Oh yeah. I playtested the deck a little and was very impressed with the Unearth's. I actually only started with 2 (as that's all I owned) and quickly went up to four. That netted me turn 3 kills very consistantly. I tend to like the more toolbox version of the deck though. So this is what I've decided upon:

1 U. Paradise
2 Forest
2 City
1 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
4 Tropical Island
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox jet
1 Black Lotus

4 Birds of Paradise
3 Wall of Roots
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Ravenous Baloth
1 Phyrexian Dreadnaught
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Psychatog
1 Phage, The Untouchable
1 Akroma, Angel of Blah
1 Reya Dawnbringer
1 Gilded Drake
1 Tradewind Rider
1 Cephalid Inkshrouder
4 Volrath's Shapeshifter

1 Ancestal Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Unearth (I love this card now)
4 Survival of the Fittest

[David Hernandez]

i used FEB on saturday and took 1st place in a very small tourney (8 players).  I used it just to try it out, and i was very pleased.  

i had never run it before, and actually only looked at the decklist on Friday night for the very first time (the day before the tourney).

i had tested it on friday, and was disappointed with the Undiscovered Paradise.  I also felt that 4 Birds and 4 Unearth were too many.  The deck also seemed to lack search capability and a way to get Blue/Black mana.  

I made the following changes and i was VERY happy with it.  

4 Survival of the Fittest
1 D.Tutor
1 V.Tutor
4 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Unearth

1 Ancestral Recall

1 Lim Dul's Vault

4 Volraths Shapeshifter
3 Wall of Roots
3 Birds of Paradise
2 Phage the Untouchable
2 Phyrexian Dreadnaught
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Psycatog
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Cephalid Inkshrouder
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Hypnox
1 Flowstone Hellion

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
4 Tropical Island
2 Forest
2 City of Brass
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Underground Sea
1 Polluted Delta

the Underground and the Polluted Delta were perfect.  The Delta still lets you get a Bayou or a Tropical Island, but gives the added benefit of fetching the Underground.  I found that i needed to get the blue/black at times when i had Ancestral and Duress, or Duress and Shapeshifter in hand.

it really smoothed out the mana base.  Also, the U. Paradise costs you tempo, which i didn't like.

V. Tutor and Lim Duls Vault were awesome, and really added the search engine that i was looking for.  This was especially true when i had awesome hands but no Survival.

Phage and Dreadnaught were amazing.  If you're going to run Phage and Dreadnaught, you should run 2 of each because it almost guarantees that there will be one available when you need it.  

Psycatog absoluetly belongs in the deck.  It was exactly what i needed to get around non-creature cards in the graveyard, as well as for picking which creature ended up on top.  Tog is another reason for running 2 Phage and 2 Dreadnaughts, as those 2 cards were the typical win-condition and there were times that they were removed from the game by the Tog in order to Unearth Shifter and get Akroma to the top of the graveyard.  After that, fetching the second Phage or Dreadnaught was a game-winner.

3 Unearths were enough.  4 seemed to clog my hand.  Unearth was another MVP.

3 Birds were plenty, and my mana base seemed to work better that way, even against a R/G land destruction deck.  Against a Sligh deck, he got Ensnaring Bridge out, which was problematic until i put a Bird into the graveyard, swung with my Shapeshifter, then Survivaled a Dreadnaught and won.

i used Cabal Therapy AGAINST MYSELF with flashback in order to get the right creature into the graveyard if i didnt have a survival in play, or if my survival had been destroyed/countered.  It was great.

the deck was awesome, though it still seems to lack something.  i would place it just shy of being a Tier 1 deck-type.  

--Dave.\n\n

[IvoryGargoyle]

@Dave: I think you'll find a couple of things. First, the Birds and Unearths allow you to go off faster. I want to have 4 Birds simply so that I have one in my opening hand as well as Unearth. They both allow you to go off on turn 3.
     Survival of The Fittest is your search engine. You also have Demonic Tutor and Ancestral Recall. I use to have Vampiric Tutor, but found it wasn't nesessary.
     I think you'll also find, and I got this too, that the Flowstone Hellions and extra Dreadnaughts aren't needed. Akroma is your hasting evasion and you'll win more often with Phage than a huge Dreadnaught.
     I'm not exactly happy with the Undiscovered Paradise either, but it serves its purpose. I think you really want to have fetch lands that get Forests... since that's the color you want the most.
     All of this was told to me in previous posts and I've found them to be correct through playtesting. Of course, the other thing I learned... the deck is a bloody blast to play.  

[Sapromancer]

how often is squee, nought/hellion and company really needed?

when survival hits, your most effective method of going of is:

pitch shapeshifter for akroma
unearth shapeshifter
pitch akroma for inkshrouder
attack and pitch inkshrouder for phage before blockers
activate inkshrouders ability dropping phage

GG.

none of this involves squee, hellion, nought or any of the other toolbox creatures, so why not just run more draw and disruption to maximize your odds?

[IvoryGargoyle]

I agree with not really needing the Hellion and Naught, but I have gotten into a situation where my early combo was disrupted or Shapeshifter killed and having the card advantage of an active Squee was a huge boost.

Having the toolbox is just me. Its fun. I run Hulk as my competative T1 deck.

[Sapromancer]

hope i didn't sound insulting to anyone working on a toolbox build of breakfast as any playtesting and experimenting may lead to a breakthrough for the deck. and while i prefer the "combo" version. i do see the reasoning for a few of the toolbox versions inclusions, notably Squee and to a lesser extent hypnox.

[David Hernandez]

Sapromancer,

i found that the Squee was excellent and worked like a consistent tutor.  I could always get what i wanted.  

Hypnox is good because its a big flyer with a great CIP ability.  Its difficult for the opponent to deal with when they have no cards and they are facing death in 3 turns.

more draw and disruption would be good, but i think you would have to do it at the cost of main deck creatures.  If you choose that route, then Squee becomes more important and you might want to run 2 of them.

the toolbox is good because there are so many threats that no single removal strategy can work against it very easily, and it provides multiple paths to victory.

i really like this deck, but like i said before, it lacks something that will put it over the top.  i need to think on it some more.

dave.

[Sapromancer]

ive been thinking of trying 2x squandered resources in place of the 2x Elvish spirit guide. from my experience with the now ancient prosbloom, i can atest for SR's ability to ramp up mana. im not so sure this is the crucial tech FEB is missing but ill post my results after some testing.

[David Hernandez]

interesting.  I would hesitate to use squandered resources and elvish spirit guide because the mana base only runs about 13 mana producing lands (for squandered) and the Guide is a throw-away.  The opponents Wastelands can further reduce your ability to use Squandereds, and they may become dead cards in your hand or on the table.

Wall of Roots should handle the fueling of the Survival and also give you generic mana when you need it. I think running 3 Roots is the right number.  

dave

[Sapromancer]

ESG is actually better than it looks. it allows you to get survival, or wall of roots out first turn even if you dont see emerald or lotus.

it also can give you that last green you need to finish that survival chain for the win.

ESG is not nescisarily the option to go with. but i think in the spot 2x currently occupies in my build, (see above) FEB needs one of the two following supliments:

1) more mana acceleration.

2) more search/draw.

ideas?

[David Hernandez]

i agree with you about the need for search/draw.  Ive been working on a modification to the deck that makes it very controlish.

3 Shapeshifter
2 Birds of Paradise
1 Phyrexian Dreadnaught
1 Phage the Untouchable
1 Psychatog
1 Hypnox
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Cephalid, Inkshrouder

3 Unearth
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

4 Survival of the Fittest

4 Brainstorm
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Underground Sea
4 Tropical Islands
2 Polluted Delta
2 City of Brass
2 Windswept Heath
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet

this gives it 21 blue cards.  Its true that not all of the lands produce green, which is what makes me hesitant to post this, but in testing its pretty consistent because its based around control.

adding the draw cards makes it start to look like Hulk/Keeper/GroAtog etc., which begs the question: "then why not just run Hulk?"

Well, maybe i dont WANT to run Hulk.  Maybe i want to roll over you with a Dreadnaught instead.  Which brings the question: "then why not just run Vengeur Mask?"

Well, because i cant AFFORD the MASKS, but i still want to roll over you with a Dreadnaught.  Or a Phage.  Or a Hypnox.

Some of these creatures/cards will never see play in any other deck, and quite honestly they are FUN.  The control aspect here allows you to buy time while affording protection so that you pull what you need and then go in for the win.

it might take an extra turn to win, but it gives more consistency with the draw engine, much like MiracleGro, while also giving you Force of Will and Mana Drain.

Dave.

[Fever]

Dude, if you can afford the rest of that deck, then i dont see why Masks are a huge problem. Keep in mind that Masks DO NOT actually cost 200 just because some fool at StarCity decided they were. You can still find UL Masks at local stores for semi-reasonable prices.

[David Hernandez]

Fever:

i've had the power cards for 7 years now.  The other cards were cheap, or i traded stuff for them.  I see masks for about $40 each, which is ok, but still $160 total.  No one here has them (or they wont trade them).  So, i'm stuck paying for them if i want a set.

the way i see it, if i cant play with the cards i already have, then i suck.

...but i still think V. Mask is a better deck, which causes me to shake with a desire to buy 4 masks...

--dave.

[Fever]

Well, you could always play Tog...

BLASPHEMY!!         

[David Hernandez]

LOL.

quoting myself from last page:

Quote adding the draw cards makes it start to look like Hulk/Keeper/GroAtog etc., which begs the question: "then why not just run Hulk?"

Well, maybe i dont WANT to run Hulk.  Maybe i want to roll over you with a Dreadnaught instead.

which is also why i like to play Stax.  The thing is, Stax is Prison, and there are times i just want to smash someones face in...

dave.

[Sapromancer]

Obviously V. Masque is the superior deck. but this thread is about FEB

on the issue of adding more search/draw. i think Sylvan learning center is a hopefull candidate for this. acting brainstorms 5-6 plus synergy with the fetches, and the fact that it is green should make this a pretty solid choice.

so to my decklist (page 3)

-2 ESG
+2 Sylvan Library

[David Hernandez]

@sapromancer: Sylvans are a good idea...

and in your build with the Brainstorms it looks very strong.  You have a lot of disruption, and you have a lot of draw.  You also keep your mana-color base in good shape.

I'll test it out.

dave.\n\n

[IvoryGargoyle]

I think if I was going to go with a pure combo, toolboxless version I'd go with Sapromancer's version:


"4x Volrath's ShapeShifter
2x Phage the Untouchable
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Cephalid Inkshrouder
1x Psychatog

4x Birds of Paradise
3x Wall of Roots
2x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Quirion Ranger

4x Survival of the fittest
4x Brainstorm
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Mystical Tutor

4x Unearth
4x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy

1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Emerald
4x Tropical Island
4x Bayou
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Windswept heath
1x Undiscovered Paradise
2x City of Brass"

I like this version a lot. Disruption, search and the mana base is pretty solid since its the one I've been using and it hasn't bitten me yet.

[iLL_Dawg]

ummm. . . . that's definately my list.  Just my list from before I cut the mystical and undiscovered paradise for vaults.

[Sapromancer]

i didnt claim the build as mine, its just what i was running and actualy i cut the two ESG's for a pair of sylvan libraries.

also i think your build has -1 bayou +1 forest, but thats just getting technical.

[David Hernandez]

@iLL_Dawg:
i reviewed all of the posts in this thread, and dont see your list.  Would you mind posting it?

@Sapromancer:
Sylvan is good.  In testing, i think it will work with only one, in and i think you can add a Dreadnaught.  Also, i think that Vampiric is better than Mystical because it can grab **anything** in the deck.

i HATE Undiscovered in this deck.  Try out the Underground Sea instead, and run a Polluted Delta instead of the Windswept Heath.

dave.

[Sapromancer]

David ->
I like sylvan in the deck too. your right about going down to one. you definitely dont want to see two, allthough im not sure i'd replace the 2nd one with a dreadnought. im going to try a vault in its spot for now.

about the mystical tutor spot:

replacing it with v. tutor seems like a good idea, from my experience its most often use (besides the obvious Ancestrall fetching) is to nab a duress/therapy/unearth before you go off. vampiric does this and more, like get survival or a cearture in a pinch. but is it as good as a 2nd vault?

i like your ideas for the mana base also  i too am hating that Undiscovered more and more each time i see it.

here's my current decklist.

4x Volrath's ShapeShifter
2x Phage the Untouchable
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Cephalid Inkshrouder
1x Psychatog

4x Birds of Paradise
3x Wall of Roots
1x Quirion Ranger (im not really happy with this spot... all i ever use it for is SotF Fodder.)

4x Survival of the fittest
1x Sylvan Library
4x Brainstorm
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric tutor
1x Lim-Dul's Vault

4x Unearth
4x Duress
4x Cabal Therapy

1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Emerald
4x Tropical Island
4x Bayou
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Polluted Delta
1x Underground Sea
2x City of Brass

--Ben