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Author Topic: Stoopid Madness  (Read 6813 times)
SummenSaugen
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« on: June 20, 2003, 01:32:49 pm »

NOTE:  This is not a joke thread.  This is a serious, competitive aggro deck that thrives in the current metagame.  Please continue reading if you can accept that without laughing and calling me a liar.  Please accept also that I have not slapped the word 'primer' on this, as I do not claim to have tested this enough to be that definitive.  However, you can decide for yourselves if this is to be labled as one.

   It's been a while, and despite of my recent success with UrPhid, I've decided to write this article to once again probe the deck Adam Bowers (ill_dawg) created and I fell in love with a few months back (late February/early March) dubbed "Stoopid Madness."  It's kind of been sitting on the sidelines due to my deep desire to pimp the deck that wins me moxen (re: UrPhid) and Adam's has been sitting uselessly next to his newest toy, "Elf Pile," a deck based off generating stupid amounts of mana and killing people with fireballs, torches, and angry killer bees.  But despite that, every time someone busts out the deck, people die, and thus it has come to my attention that I do indeed find the deck to be not only extremely fun but a tough competitor to beat, and so here's its very own Vintage thread to discuss its future, proper metagaming, and various critiques.  I feel this is necessary because the one on the unregistered forum is A) outdated and B) not being taken seriously, which I believe is largely because when you mix "unregistered" with "madness" you get a mental image of some kid with his T2 madness deck sporting proxied power.

   The History
   The deck started somewhere around late February and early March, where Adam was bored and decided to abuse Lion's Eye Diamond and Bazaar of Baghdad because it must be done, and so he tossed some zero cost lizards and three cost wurms in the mix and came out with a silly, but explosive, deck.  Over time it grew to be much better and more reliable, but it still sports his trademark card as the draw engine, which is what makes this aggro deck so much more difficult to stop than others such as Sligh and Suicide - Oath of Scholars.
   In late March, after a sleepless night fueled by Red Bull, Code Red Mountain Dew, and playtesting,  I get the great idea to bring Stoopid Madness to a Waterbury power tournament, instead of the full power Rector Trix (a la wicketsnatcher, dubbed "L[ich]D[onate]") I was going to play.  Though I did not top eight, I was in this position:  a point short, which would have been earned had I A) not had the fifth turn after time was called end with Dan Richardson and his One Fish, Two Fish at one life and me with trampling wurms, or B) not IDed with Tim Shore and his monobrown beats since we played the games out for fun and flying puppies crushed his groundworking snakes.
   We considered this more than a sign the deck could compete, and put a little more work into it.  Adam's since then taken it to several top eight finishes, and won quite a few local tournaments on saturday afternoons and friday nights (typically about 14 to 16 people on fridays and 24-26 on saturdays.)  Because he's been playing with Elf Pile much more as of late, however, Madness needs quite an update.  And the timing is just right, as it coincides with a massive change to the T1 metagame - the restriction of Gush.

   The List
   The list obviously hasn't been messed around with too much as of late, but here are the two most recent.  The first is my own list, and the second is Adam's.  

Quote
Quote 4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Wild Mongrel
4x Arrogant Wurm
3x Roar of the Wurm

2x Anger
2x Wonder

3x Fiery Temper
1x Violent Eruption

3x Oath of Scholars
3x Deep Analysis
3x Bazaar of Baghdad
1x Windfall
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Timetwister
1x Frantic Search
1x Time Walk

4x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Black Lotus
1x Sol Ring
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Diamond
1x Mana Crypt
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Volcanic Island
2x Tropical Island
3x Taiga
1x Forest

Quote
Quote Bombs Over Baghdad, created by Adam Bowers
4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Wild Mongrel
4x Arrogant Wurm
3x Roar of the Wurm

2x Anger
2x Wonder

3x Fiery Temper
2x Violent Eruption

4x Bazaar of Baghdad
3x Deep Analysis
2x Oath of Scholars
1x Windfall
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Timetwister
1x Frantic Search

4x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Emerald
1x Sol Ring
1x Mox Diamond
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Volcanic Island
3x Taiga
3x Tropical Island
1x Forest

   You'll notice there aren't many differences.  The differences that do exist have been italicized to make it clearer for the readers.
   Lots of people write large lists (a la my original post, a thankyaverymuch) explaining their card choices, but I think most people hate that as well because it's mostly blatantly obvious, so instead I compiled a list of what you will not find entering these lists any time soon.  Note that this is not a 100% thing, I have been proved wrong (Roar of the Wurm is indeed a house, my apologies for having to debate that.  Yes, I'm stupid sometimes) however chances are that these things have been thoroughly tested and just suck.

   Counterbackup (Circular Logic, Force of Will, Misdirection, Mana Drain)
   This is a huge no-no in this deck.  The whole thing likes to be thrown away to the many discard outlets, and control decks hate throwing away their cards for a reason.  If there was a counter that had flashback and didn't suck, it might be in the sideboard for the combo matchup.  As of now though, it's just poor synergy and you're more likely to win by smashing face before they go off.

   Random Crap that works in T2 (Aquamoeba, Quiet Speculations)
   This stuff may be good in T2, but T2 is considerably slower and this deck's biggest advantage is that it's extraordinarily explosive.  Running these types of spells really takes away from the aggro element of the deck.

   Ancestral Recall (OMG WTF IS HE F-ING SEREUS?!?!!?!  LOL OMG WTF!!!!11)
   This has been talked to death and tested rather rigorously.  Obviously Ancestral Recall is amazing, and has the potential to steal games with stupid card advantage that's just unfair.  But a very wise thing came from Moobius, aka Chris K:
   
Quote
Quote Obviously it's a good card, but if it doesn't fit in the deck, it doesn't fit in the deck!
   Simply put, running an additional Bazaar of Baghdad or Deep Analysis would often be better, since this deck likes to throw away its hand before Ancestral can do its thing, and then proceeds to ride the card advantage off Bazaar like a sick double LoA.  Running an additional Bazaar allows it to run much smoother, and running an additional Deep Analysis means you have another draw spell you can cast from this position.  The life is largely unimportant, and having this misdirected is a lot less irritating than someone mising your Ancestral.

   Standard Burn (Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning)
   Again, in the position (and it happens often) that you're milling yourself for card advantage with Bazaar and pumping mongrels, Fiery Temper is just better.  We liked Violent Eruption quite a bit because not only did it kill obnoxious weenies (a la fish) but also wiped the board clear of welders and rangers, which are both thoroughly annoying.  I haven't found the second in the maindeck to be that important as of yet, so I have temporarily cut it for Time Walk.  Time Walk, however, has not been pulling its weight and I'm considering cutting it for either a third Anger or another Fiery Temper.


   That being said, the deck is fairly simple to operate, as long as you keep a few major things in mind.
   - Using Bazaar of a larger hand is almost always better, unless the situation arises in which you have a Mongrel and one card in hand.  In this scenerio, pitching to the Mongrel is much better.
   - Pitch cards to a Mongrel in response to your draw sevens.
   - Do not keep a non-explosive hand unless it has some incredible draw power (the first turn Oath, or a draw seven after several cheap artifacts)
   - The most dangerous opponent is one who knows how to play around you.  Thankfully, a precious few exist.  In other words, keep them guessing, and bait for counters before you cast Oath.

   The Sideboard!
   The sideboard is extremely out of whack right now, at least on my end.  In the past we've seen many things take their place in the sideboard, including:
   - Blood Moon
   - Ray of Revelation
   - Riftstone Portal
   - Violent Eruption
   - Gilded Drake
   - Nullmage Advocate
   - Red Elemental Blast
   - Tormod's Crypt
   - Noble Panther
   The most fun sideboard related thing to pull is bringing in Riftstone Portals along with Blood Moon and the added Violent Eruption burn, as it catches many off guard since your mana base does not look able to support itself with a Blood Moon on the table.  In addition, many strange people will decide to bring in the Noble Panther teque since they will have the white to run it.  What can I say, he's a house.    However, this is the part of the deck that needs the most help, and needs a severe metagaming job.  

   Reasons to play Stoopid Madness:
   - It's much faster than most, if not, all other present aggro.  It explodes more often than TnT and tends to have the haste to back it up long before TnT can plop down a Survival and begin the Survival chain.  And Survival is counterable.
   - It's more fun.  Tossing your hand away is great, it allows you to hold a soda in one hand and a delicious food item in the other.  Not to mention, for those of you who keep good notes, this makes it much easier to write down what occurs in the game.
   - It has more backing up the boys.  It's extraordinarily hard to systematically deal with the threats a la Keeper with an active Oath or Bazaar on the table, and considering everyone seems to be dinking down their enchantment removal and land destruction, these two engines are massively exceptional at what they do.
   - It can be made fairly cheaply, with the exception of Bazaars.  Might I note that Bazaars are much, MUCH easier to obtain than Workshops, and this deck does NOT need a full set of moxen and blue power to run.  The Twister is fairly important, but not 100% necessary and is the easiest of the power to obtain anyway.  Most people have some T2 madness crap hanging around as well...  It's just a matter of resleeving them next to dual lands.
   - It is commonly the only aggro deck I know that easily outraces several combos.  The maindeck Wonders make it pretty good against Rector Trix until they find their therapies, as well.
   -
Quote
Quote Ill_dawg:  MADNESS IS TEH R0XX0R OMG LOL!!!!!1111 WTF OMG LOL!!!11!1

   Several things should be discussed on this thread, debating on the deck and its evolution.  Until ill_dawg has earned his account, I'll be replying here with his thoughts in quotes, so that he can share his ideas with the rest of the Vintage community.  Here are some springboards for discussion:
   - The Windfall slot is being hotly debated, as it often doesn't pull its weight and is yet another blue spell which is painful with Blood Moon on the table.  Is there something better?
   - The sideboards right now are untweaked and unprepared for the coming metagame shift.  What are some major candidates for the board, and why should they be included?
   - Many say the restriction of Gush will lead many more to return to their Keeper.  Can this deck earn its keep against Keeper as well as other traditional forms of aggro (or better), and what can be done to improve this matchup?
   - Secret tech for a changing metagame?  Anything in general would be interesting here.
- The addition of Fork?  I cannot make a case for this as I don't like it, but ill_dawg had this to say:
Quote
Quote I've also been thinking about tossing in a fork, since forking a draw-7 is fun, as is forking a roar, or any number of things an opponent might throw at you.  Forking some combo deck's win condition is some fun.  forking an ancestral doesn't suck, either.  At worst, forking a counterspell or a mana drain can be unexpected and beneficial.

   That's about all I have for right now.  What are you waiting for?  Discuss!  
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doublej20
Guest
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2003, 01:44:38 pm »

I have a friend in San Diego who plays a deck very similar to this, and based on his experiences I would definitely recommend a couple of small, minor changes.

While some Type 2 cards are too slow to work, there are some Extended and Type 1 cards that are too good to pass up, namely Intuition and Squee, Goblin Nabob. I would cut the Deep Analysis' and at least 1 burn spell and add at 2 Intuition and 2-3 Squees. At absolute worst they can be used as a chump blocker against things like Juggernaut, and at their best they are ridiculous with Bazaar. Intuition adds tutoring power and can help you get Squees or good flashback things like Ray of Revelation, Roar of the Wurm, and Deep Analysis (if you decide to leave a couple in or put them in the board).
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SummenSaugen
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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2003, 01:51:02 pm »

Intuition and Squee have been suggested, but here's what I think about them..

Intuition:  It's really bulky.  It's not smashing face or being particularly broken for its cost, and that makes me wary.  If it had a flashback/madness cost, I would definately be using it.

Squee:  To be totally honest, this will sound funny, but often I don't want to throw away Squee.  I'd rather be throwing away Madness stuff, incarnations, or Deep Anal/Roar.  I've tried him out, and though he was awesome sometimes, it was far more often that I wished he was either a beatstick or some burn.
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Redman
Guest
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2003, 02:05:18 pm »

I actually like this idea a lot, once I get over the distaste for a T2 mechanic. It has my favorite color combination and you can swing with big creatures, so certainly has my attention, though I haven't seen too much since I saw a report on Italian Madness a while back. That and my financials don't allow me to play TnT.

I don't really think that Intuitions are the way to go. I'd like to see the threat density stay about where it is. However, I will ask about Squee, as it's the most common Type 1 card used in conjunction with Bazaar. Have you tried Squee extensively and found it less than useful?

Do you see this deck as a Bazaar deck or a more general madness deck?  I have been considering the latter more, as Bazaars don't seem absolutely neccesary, and have a tendency to hurt mana development. I'm almost more inclined to run 2, thouigh the fact they are a juicy Wasteland target also makes a case for 3. I think 4 might be too many.

How do you get your Oaths to resolve?  It seems like this deck wants to throw a whole bunch of stuff on the table, then make the opponent deal with it, but do you have problems with overextending, then having your recovery mechanism summarily countered/Wasted?  I know from playing Zoo that a draw 7 was always hard to resolve, here you have 3 and 4 mana spells as well.

Also, I'm slightly discouraged by a large presence of Swords in the environment. Keeper's packing 2 or 3 Stp's can't be good news for big creature decks.

That, and graveyard hate is always a concern; how worried are you about things like Tormod's Crypt/Planar Void?

As the the SB, the Riftstone Portal seems like a cute trick, and I'll have to try it out, though my inner sense tells me there must be a better way than relying on discarding that one of to get your mana base back on track.

Other than those questions, I think the deck looks fairly solid, and I will be working on a version myself over the next few weeks.

Oh, and one random thing that just came to me: Maybe Gigapede as a SB card?  It's oh so expensive, but you don't mind pitching it, and it's nice as a hedge against extra StPs.\n\n

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Rando
Guest
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2003, 02:06:40 pm »

I was following the talk over in the unregistered forum.  I myself have been testing it for the last few days and have a few thoguhts.

I think the off-color moxen and more mana sources in general are a good idea.  The off-color moxen will help you get the first-turn Mongral.  Also, since you can only play one land a turn, if you drop your whole hand to a LED on turn one you'll really wish the next draw is a land.  This is why I think 26 mana sources is good.  From what I've seen so far, this is the one Aggro deck that wants to top-deck land from time to time.

I'm also glad to see Deep Analasys in there now, as it's great for getting out of dire top-decking situations.  It's another reason to run the off-color moxen, so that you can LED your hand first turn (hopefuly dropping a DA into the graveyard) and have three cards available next turn.  I'm going to do some more serious and thourough testing tonight, but so far my thinking is that you want the 2 or 3 permanant mana sources on turn one, before you start discarding.

With the mana problem and the 4 cc of the Oath, how consistantly do you get it on the table in time or at all?  Thus far I've run many games where I finish with only 1 or 2 lands and maybe a mox as my mana sources.

I will add that this is sorta poor man's TNT.  It can be as fast or faster.  Don't discount it just because it uses a gimicky block mechanic.

jp
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Grand Inquisitor
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« Reply #5 on: June 20, 2003, 02:16:06 pm »

although i have a reasonable feel for this deck (having played it a few times), it might be helpful to list some of its especially good/bad matchups.

i will admit, this thing is the fastest aggro deck i've ever seen.  i thought tnt was fast, but this thing just cooks.  it is not uncommon to be staring down 10+ hasted damage on the 2nd, or sometimes first turn.

this deck is suceptible to strips (its main draw engine is a land) and sweepers (its strategy is to over commit), but its strength is that it can kill you with out you even knowing you were in danger.
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BillTheDuck
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« Reply #6 on: June 20, 2003, 02:18:05 pm »

Quote
Quote Ancestral Recall (OMG WTF IS HE F-ING SEREUS?!?!!?!  LOL OMG WTF!!!!11)
This has been talked to death and tested rather rigorously.  Obviously Ancestral Recall is amazing, and has the potential to steal games with stupid card advantage that's just unfair.  But a very wise thing came from Moobius, aka Chris K:
Quote  
Obviously it's a good card, but if it doesn't fit in the deck, it doesn't fit in the deck!

Simply put, running an additional Bazaar of Baghdad or Deep Analysis would often be better, since this deck likes to throw away its hand before Ancestral can do its thing, and then proceeds to ride the card advantage off Bazaar like a sick double LoA.  Running an additional Bazaar allows it to run much smoother, and running an additional Deep Analysis means you have another draw spell you can cast from this position.  The life is largely unimportant, and having this misdirected is a lot less irritating than someone mising your Ancestral.

Besides the misdirection point, there is NO reason not to run this card in ANY deck with blue. If it gets discarded, it gets discarded, at worst it gives you a larger hand to choose things to discard from. Its unconditional card draw with no drawback, and its cheap as hell.

As for the intuition/squee thing, I think its totally unnecessary and would bog down the deck. If you've seen this thing in action you realize how explosive it is, and how Bazaar is an engine in itself and doesnt need squee.

I do not and never have liked oath of scholars. It costs too much and I can't see why this would be run in your list over a fourth Bazaar.

For your list I would go -3 Oath, + Recall +Bazaar +Anger
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Rando
Guest
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2003, 02:22:53 pm »

Continuing that thought, I'd add another Deep Anal before I added a 4th Bazaar.

Bazaar may be the key to the deck but you can see too much of it over the coarse of the game.  On the other hand, DA sits quietly until your ready to use it and wants to be discarded.

jp
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pernicious dude
Guest
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2003, 02:33:08 pm »

Is there anything other than Lion's Eye Diamond mana in the case for Fiery Temper over Lightning Bolt?
Do you never want to cast Temper while not discarding?

My Fish are very happy to see fewer Violent Eruption.
Misdirection definitely exists.
I expect anything having four toughness is also happier.
Are you sure about trimming the Eruptions?

Have y'all tried Manabond?
The lands hit play before the Madness spells need to be paid for.
Manabond/Oath of Scholars was key in some of the earlier T1 madness decks.
This deck is much faster than those were,
and Oath has therefore lost some if its kick,
but Manabond might still prove useful.
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SummenSaugen
Guest
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2003, 02:40:54 pm »

I'm making a case for cutting maindeck eruptions simply to fit Time Walk in there.  As many have said, you need an extra land to be doing your thing, so I think the ability to develop an extra turn before your opponent gets one is the way to go.  It makes me want to run off color moxen (something many have suggested to get a first turn mongrel more often) and could take the deck in a different direction.  But for now, that's simply a theory for testing purposes and for that reason my extra eruptions are cheering me on from the sideboard in game one.

Fiery Temper is also better than Lightning Bolt because it's usually a game finisher when you're in topdeck mode with Bazaar.  Adam and I agree on this completely - We have wished twice, maybe three times, that the Temper was a Bolt.  However, that's outweighed by the forty or fifty games that getting a Temper from a Bazaar has won the game.

I goofed around with Manabond for a little while.  Honestly, it just didn't do anything that spectacular.  It might be worth looking into again soon though.

@G_I:  I'll post some matchup analysis once I can reach Adam for his opinions in the matter.

@all:  It's good to see some quality discussion going on for a deck I feel is more than capable to compete with the heavy hitters.  Please continue, and feel free to tear into me (especially for not running Ancestral!).  I appreciate any and all attention you share with the deck.
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theorigamist
Guest
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2003, 02:46:00 pm »

I tried out a similar deck a while ago, and here are my thoughts on Ancestral Recall:

Big fucking surprise, it's still a good card.  Yes it is unconditional, cheap, blue card drawing at instant speed.  Yes, it's only downfall is Misdirectability.  That's enough to make it not worth the slot over, say, Bazaar (which is usually what people tend to cut to make room for Ancestral).  Bazaar is uncounterable.  Bazaar is unmisdirectable.  Bazaar is free to "cast."  Bazaar will get you through generally 6 cards in a game.  Bazaar puts stuff where you need it (into play through discarding or into the graveyard for flashback).  Bazaar is much better for the deck.

What else do people want to cut for Ancestral?  I could see cutting a Deep Analysis, maybe.  You could, in fact, cut Deep Anals all together for 1 Ancestral and 2 Manabond (I agree with P. Dude, these are amazing, even as just another madness outlet and flashback enabler, let alone synergy with Oath of Scholars).
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Drogo
Guest
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2003, 02:55:06 pm »

I've also seen some locals have some success with madness in Type 1 so I won't discount anything.  

4 Bazaar's are a must, they are THE primary engine after all so your list looks better in that respect.

I still don't see how Oath can be better than Ancestral here, surely one can be cut for the Recall.  

Squee plus Bazaar is just sick, I have seen that engine used very successfully so I would think it would be a natural for this deck.  This deck is more aggro I admit, so possibly the squees are just too slow.  You've played it so you probably know better but I'd give them a long hard look if you haven't already.

Tony
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SummenSaugen
Guest
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2003, 03:01:10 pm »

Manabond:  It's not really great at all, the problem I have with it is that although it allows me to cast Oath easier, I would have to discard oath that turn or try to topdeck it.  Granted, I'm running Bazaar, which lets me topdeck three cards a turn, but I have to throw 2-3 of them away before I get a chance.

Squee:  He is too slow, which is a major thing.  The other major thing is that everything other that Oaths, Mongrels, and land wants to get discarded anyway, so he's really just a clump in the deck.  Although he does make casting Oath easier.

Grave Hate:  It's irritating, but easy to work around.  Most of the people bringing in the more devastating grave hate (Planar Void!) tend to be easy matchups anyway.  Hand rape is a joke, and a funny one at that.
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pernicious dude
Guest
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2003, 03:15:21 pm »

Quote
Quote Hand rape is a joke, and a funny one at that.

I tried Chains Of Mephistopheles on ill-dawg one time.
That was pretty amusing.
Every card he drew promptly hit me in the face.

Quote
Quote Manabond:  It's not really great at all, the problem I have with it is that although it allows me to cast Oath easier,

I was proposing Manabond on it's own merits, not to help cast Oath.
Turn 1 land, Manabond, EOT drop lands and Wurm.
Next turn flash Deep A, rinse and repeat.
Oath, especially with only two or three copies, is a late-game (?) card for this deck.
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SummenSaugen
Guest
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2003, 03:18:13 pm »

Perhaps it's worth a second look, I'll do some testing this week and get back to you.  
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Often Lost
Guest
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2003, 05:18:59 pm »

I used to play Toronto Stompy alot, and I found that you need 4 ESG. They are sooooo good. Plus, I dont know about Wild Mongrel, just seems a little slow. Id add more ROTWs, as its quite easy to get a first turn 6/6. Also, maybe try Quite Speculation/Seize the Day/random stuff. Quite for Ray of Revalation against Rector Trix is sooo good. Also, maybe check out Call of the Heard, and Mana Crypt.
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Matt The Great
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« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2003, 07:25:36 pm »

Quote from: SummenSaugen+June 20 2003,13:32
Quote (SummenSaugen @ June 20 2003,13:32)The Windfall slot is being hotly debated, as it often doesn't pull its weight and is yet another blue spell which is painful with Blood Moon on the table.  Is there something better?
Ancestral Recall?

I really, really like this deck. It's so fun.
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mrieff
Guest
« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2003, 10:50:43 am »

Have you considered Firestorm?

Discard+removal into 1...
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SummenSaugen
Guest
« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2003, 11:44:36 am »

Firestorm has been suggested in the past, but at best it's a cute trick.  Either you don't have targets, or you end up frying your own guys, or you deal two points of damage with a spell that can't be cast off Bazaar.

I gave it a shot anyway though, and it worked just as poorly as I thought.  Fiery Temper has been infinately better.

Thanks for the suggestions guys, let's keep em comin'.  

EDIT:  I just remembered I'm posting from ill_dawg's place.  Therefore, I will write the matchup analyses now.

Keeper:  Pre-board Keeper is a pain in the ass.  It has the ability to attack every draw engine in the deck and it's weilding a LOT of StPs.  Any deck with Force of Will has the potential to be dangerous as well, as if they stop your explosive start, you have a tough time recoving (unless your explosion was something along the lines of land, lotus, oath...)  Post board, the matchup tends to get a lot better, with the addition of red blasts and blood moons.  It's still not a good matchup, but it becomes a lot more winnable.

TnT:  This is actually pretty strongly in the Madness player's hands, as the deck goes faster and has fatter fat.  TnT needs to play like a control deck and hope to stabilize with welder/trisk coordinated effort, but post board Ray of Revelation owns their survival and Nullmage does all that and more.  Wonder is an MVP on either side of the table.

Mask:  This is largely down to luck, both decks can explode off the bat but Madness tends to do so more often.  I would say if the mask build is Tainted Mask, Madness should be able to take it home.  Vengeur Masque is a lot harder, and it becomes a very much less winnable game due to the fact it can do retarded things with Survival.  Burn can mess with Vengeur, so use that to your advantage  Post board it's closer to an even fight.

Hulk Smash:  This has the potential to be a breeze or a vicious uphill battle.  If you can explode early enough and be lucky enough to get some fat through the early counters, you've pretty much got it in the bag.  Your beats are faster than their 'combo'    On a side note, Gilded Drake in this matchup is some fun.  There's a HUGE yard for Professor McToothington to eat and who wouldn't want to throw their hand away to pump him besides?

Rector Trix:  Ray of Revelation is some good I hear.  This matchup is pretty bad in game one, but games two and three are a LOT easier.  Nullmage and Ray can end the game on the spot, as both dodge hand rape pretty well.  It's fairly often to have several enchantment hate spells ready and active extra when the Trix player wants to win, just in case of Force of Will.

Stax:  First turn Sphere of Resistance is game.  Otherwise, this matchup isn't bad.  We were largely untested for a while, but I finally got sick of not knowing and built Stax of proxies and we tested the hell out of it for a few days.  I would say 60% is a fairly solid number to expect if Sphere doesn't see the table until turn 2-3+.   If it hits before the Madness player gets a chance to develop, the whole thing gets blown to hell and it's much easier to control the board.  Note:  An LED tapped by Wire is still usable.  There is no Tap in the activation cost.

Sligh:  A joke.  They're extraordinarily slow compared to you and have a good tendency to wander into instant-speed madness blockers and switch controllers (<3 the goblinz0r).  Incidentally, the funniest thing I ever witnessed Madness do was against Caleb, a sligh player in our area.  He opened the turn with Mountain, Ruby, Ankh of Mishra, and Adam proceeded to drop LED, LED, Arrogant, Arrogant.  Caleb had no answers for four toughness guys and scooped.

UrPhid:  This matchup has been tested to hell, mostly because I've been testing my UrPhid recently and Adam's been playing Madness casually.  UrPhid, like other decks weilding blue, is dangerous for the Force of Will reason.  However, for whatever reason, Madness doesn't have that tough of a time breaking through the UrPhid counterwall.  Even so, UrPhid has the tendency to just squeek by, usually in a way involving Control Magic or Mana Drain targeting Roar of the Wurm.  I'd place the Madness percentage at 40 or so for this matchup.  It's very difficult, but winnable.

Parfait:  Whatever.  They can't really stop anything, they're WAY too slow.  Mask is too fast for Parfait, and this deck is faster than Mask and is less wounded by Swords to Plowshares.  Their biggest weapon is Balance, which is always funny because they only get to topdeck 1-2 cards per turn, whereas I get to topdeck 3-5

Suicide/Void:  Not a difficult matchup.  Your opponent doubles as a discard outlet, his fat is bad, and you run burn for Negators.  This is perhaps the easiest matchup you could get for Madness.

Random Scrub Deck:  Violent Eruption has a tendency of making scrub decks bend over.  Even so, it's usually unnecessary.  Though scrub decks tend to have a 40:20 creature:land ratio, Wonder owns them all day long, Mongrel is bigger than their shit, and Roar of the Wurm is massive.

There ya go  
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walking dude
Guest
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2003, 12:19:46 pm »

Here is something for those of you who looked at this thread and looked away. I decided to run this against trix. You don't see the movess of trix because that deck was irl. It was 2-1 in favor of this thing. This game really shows you this deck's power.

 HT has a 0 card sideboard
 HT has a 60 card deck.
 HT's life is now 20. (+12)
 HT is shuffling library...
 HT draws no cards.
 -- HT's Security Code: 148226
 -- HT says: ''I am ready.''
 HT is shuffling library...
 HT is shuffling library...
 HT is shuffling library...
 HT draws a card.
 HT draws a card.
 HT draws a card.
 HT draws a card.
 HT draws a card.
 HT draws a card.
 HT draws a card.
 HT plays Tropical Island.
 HT plays Mox Emerald.
 Tropical Island is tapped.
 Mox Emerald is tapped.
 HT plays Wild Mongrel.
 It is now turn 2.
 It is now the Untap Phase.
 Tropical Island is untapped.
 Mox Emerald is untapped.
 HT draws a card.
 HT plays Taiga.
 Taiga is tapped.
 HT plays Sol Ring.
 HT plays Lion's Eye Diamond.
 HT moves Wild Mongrel from
 HT's hand to HT's graveyard.
 Tropical Island is tapped.
 Sol Ring is tapped.
 Lion's Eye Diamond is tapped.
 HT moves Windfall from HT's hand to HT's graveyard.
 HT buries Lion's Eye Diamond.
 HT draws a card.
 HT draws a card.
 HT draws a card.
 HT draws a card.
 HT draws a card.
 HT draws a card.
 HT draws a card.
 HT moves Anger from HT's hand to HT's graveyard.
 Wild Mongrel now has 1 counters. (+1) for the mongrel
 Wild Mongrel now has 2 counters. (+1) for the anger
 HT plays Mox Ruby.
 HT plays Mox Diamond.
 HT moves Volcanic Island from HT's hand to HT's graveyard.
 Mox Diamond is tapped.
 HT moves Deep Analysis from HT's hand to HT's graveyard.
 HT moves Oath of Scholars from HT's hand to HT's graveyard.
 Wild Mongrel now has 3 counters. (+1) DA
 Wild Mongrel now has 4 counters. (+1) Oath
 Mox Ruby is tapped.
 HT moves Wheel of Fortune from HT's hand to HT's graveyard.
 HT draws a card.
 HT draws a card.
 HT draws a card.
 HT draws a card.
 HT draws a card.
 HT draws a card.
 HT draws a card.
 HT plays Basking Rootwalla.
 HT plays Basking Rootwalla.
 Wild Mongrel now has 5 counters. (+1) rootwalla
 Wild Mongrel now has 6 counters. (+1) rootwalla
 HT plays Black Lotus.
 HT moves Roar of the Wurm from HT's hand to HT's graveyard.
 Wild Mongrel now has 7 counters. (+1) roar
 Black Lotus is tapped.
 HT buries Black Lotus.
 Mox Emerald is tapped.
 HT moves Roar of the Wurm from HT's graveyard to tabletop.
 HT moves Fiery Temper from HT's hand to HT's graveyard.
 Wild Mongrel now has 8 counters. (+1) temper
 life is now 19. (-1)
 life is now 18. (-1)
 life is now 17. (-1)
 HT moves Wild Mongrel from HT's hand to HT's graveyard.
 HT moves Wooded Foothills from HT's hand to HT's graveyard.
 Wild Mongrel now has 9 counters. (+1) mongrel
 Wild Mongrel now has 10 counters. (+1) foorhills
 Wild Mongrel is tapped.
 Wild Mongrel is attacking.
 Basking Rootwalla is tapped.
 Basking Rootwalla is attacking.
 Basking Rootwalla is tapped.
 Basking Rootwalla is attacking.
 Roar of the Wurm is tapped.
 Roar of the Wurm is attacking.
Turn 2 Kill
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SummenSaugen
Guest
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2003, 12:25:30 pm »

Walking Dude:  You are awesome.  I was going to post the turn 1 Adam got here but I can't remember everything it included.  The basic premise was that it involved Wheel, Twister, seeing Lotus twice, some burn, Anger, Mongrel, and of course Rootwallas.

That was before Roar of the Wurm was in here
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SummenSaugen
Guest
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2003, 09:20:20 pm »

Not meant to be a bump or a double post, but here are some things ill_dawg and myself have been testing the past few days-

Off Color Moxes:  They've been okay so far.  They do allow a MUCH faster Oath, but they seem to really hurt the Wonder/Anger effecacy in the deck.  I'm not conclusively supporting or condemning the usage of off color moxen.

Mana Crypt:  This thing has been either really good or really awful.  The fact that it does tend to own my ass, especially in the same deck as Deep Analysis, makes me worry quite a bit.  In addition, double colorless is kind of crap unless I'm casting Oath or multiple other spells.  So far I've not been liking it.

Roar #4:  Been pretty okay.  I'd say the deck can go either way without a massive alteration to the way the deck plays.  It's really just whether or not you feel the added security of trample is necessary.

Bazaar #4:  Incredible.  Simply incredible.  This is a change that begins for good, and right now.

Experience with fewer Eruptions:  Fewer eruptions suck, I'm definately cutting Time Walk for the second one in the main.  Time Walk really has been just sucking, staring at me from my graveyard every time.  Highly disappointing, rarely abusable.  It's a win-more card at best.

Fetch/Dual Configuration:  More fetches seem to work better for me.  ill_dawg has liked three fetches, because he likes to topdeck land a lot of the time.  I, on the other hand, have been missing needed colors (mainly for Anger/Wonder) due to the off color moxes, and therefore enjoy the full 4.  This may require further testing.  I'm working on it, but I'm just one man.

Deep Anal:  It's been good, but having more than three is shitty.  If I ever decide to retest Ancestral Recall I'll be cutting a Deep Anal for it.

Oath of Scholars:  I can't reduce the number of Oaths in my deck.  Period.  I just need them, and when they resolve I win.  The only time I haven't been able to abuse it is in the mirror.


So my basic conclusion is that there is not yet a conclusion, and I think to test some of the more altering ideas I've received would require a skeleton reworking, which is a project I don't wish to begin just yet.  I'd be interested to hear what you all think of the things we've been trying.

Oh, and ill_dawg says
Quote
Quote Desi says "Mreeeow!"
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Queequeg
Guest
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2003, 07:13:56 am »

SummenSaugen have you considered running Tog over mongrol, adding black would give you access to will.
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MoreFling
Guest
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2003, 11:07:17 am »

Quote from: Queequeg+June 22 2003,14:13
Quote (Queequeg @ June 22 2003,14:13)adding black would give you access to will.
Whoa, next to tutor, this will is amazing.

Just picture that with those LED's you've been using. The drawback is completely gone, it's like, in a typical game, where you've had 2 LED's where you play will, you make 6 mana, and start the critters again.

I don't think Psychatog is really good here, since you are getting rid of your hand so fast, that you won't be able to pump the Tog that way. Mongrel is pretty much to have the cheapest possible madness outlet next to LED right?
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theorigamist
Guest
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2003, 12:11:49 pm »

Quote
Quote Mongrel is pretty much to have the cheapest possible madness outlet next to LED right?
And Bazaar.
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Maxx Matt
Guest
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2003, 06:53:12 pm »

This is a list of an italian deck based on madness


4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Library of Alexandria
7 SoLoMoxen

4 Wild Mongrel
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Roar of the Wurm
1 Masticore

4 Force of Will
3 Circular Logic
2 Misdirection

1 Anger
1 Wonder
4 Squee, Goblin Nabob

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune

3 Fiery Temper
1 Berserk

Sideboard
1 Ray of Revelation
3 Naturalize
1 Genesis
2 Waterfrount Bouncer
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Gilded Drake
2 Rack and Ruin

Without Lion's Eye Diamond i prefer to not play arrogant wurm since there is no so much possibilities to cast them when use bazaar. What i really want to try in this deck is the use of Accumulated Knowledge for card advantage or Cunning wish for flexibility.
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SummenSaugen
Guest
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2003, 08:28:17 pm »

Italian Madness never made sense to me.  Forces and Masticore have terrible synergy with Bazaar.   Why not play something abusable with that thing?  Used correctly, it's a broken draw engine that puts Library of Alexandria to shame.
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BillTheDuck
Guest
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2003, 09:31:57 pm »

Ben, it seems to be more based around squee. Bazaar and Core dont have synergy with each other, but they both do with squee.

The inclusion of will and demonic seem great to me. You could put in 1 or 2 bayous to fuel it. LED is so great with will like morefling said. Demonic can fetch an oath if you are mana flooded, a bazaar, an anger/wonder if you need it to pull a win this turn type deal, or to get the will. Also, if you dont have the bayou or dont want to fetch it, there are plenty of ways to discard them as bazaar food or one of your other several forms of discard. Black also increases sideboard options. I think you should try the splash. Both Demonic and Will go great in here.
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SummenSaugen
Guest
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2003, 09:00:07 am »

It's funny the black splash is mentioned, because I was actually testing it out a little...  I wasn't very pleased with it however.  The deck is very color-hungry and hurts to run black, however it does give the opportunity for some fun broken spells.  Maybe even a Psychatog or two, that could be some fun.  (Think about it, free discard like a Mongrel, but have you ever SEEN Madness' graveyard nearing the end of a game?)

However, like I said, the manabase does feel the pain from it.  And with four colors, you usually want to run some catch-all type lands, like City of Brass, which with Deep Anal is a lot of pain and of course isn't fetchable and can't activate Wonder/Anger.

I'm going to keep trying it.  So far it seems overall weaker, but it has the potential for some extraordinarily broken plays.
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codecap
Guest
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2003, 08:12:07 pm »

Hello every one this is my first post here  .  I have been playtesting this deck since I first read the thread a few weeks ago.
     So far I have come to a few realizations.  I have to totally agre that the addition of black just bogs the deck and mana base down.  All it does is add more cards that are really good IF you can cast them and IF they do not get discarded off bazaar.  
     The other thing I have found is staz is one of the hardest matchups I have faced.  Earlier someone said that a first or second turn sphere is about game and I have to agree.  The sphere hurts this deck badly enough to totally tip the scales.  I have run into a few creature based stax with jugs and sui-chi.  These have made for an almost one sided first game match-up and not very balanced game 2-3.  The slow down of the spheres and tangle wires with their early beats has been hard to deal with.  Any suggestions on some things to deal with this matchup would be great.
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