Article -- Workshop and CHalice philosophy

[Dante]

Quote (brianb @ Oct. 10 2003,15:32)Now it may be that if they do enough housecleaning, a metagame may develop where decks can play around chalice.  I doubt it though, and I know for sure that having chalice in the environment with mana drain or workshop is just plain lame.

you know this "for sure"....can you come to Vegas with me next time I go and you can bet on sports for me?

I don't think the point of this thread is to debate what cards should be restricted or not to "help the environment", but to discuss chalice and workshop specifically.

If we were going to continue on that debate, we'd have more pointless calls for restricting cards [mana drain and workshop]that don't really need it by people who don't have those cards.  There will be a cry to restrict mana drain/bazaar/workshop/any other expense out of print card that is more powerful that cards you can buy for $10, for the "health of the format".  

Guess what guys, Type 1 is a niche format, there are only so many of certain cards that you need to be competitive.  That's the way it is.  It will always be this way, unless WotC does something drastic like reprinting the more powerful out of print cards [fat chance] or mass restricting a whole slew of cards [at which point "Type 1" is dead and we can either play Type 1.5 with or without moxes and ancestral.

It would be nice to move the fundamental turn of Type 1 back to turn 3.  It seems like a lot of people [calling for restrictions] want to move it back to turn 4-6.  that is what type 1.5 and extended is for.

Dante

[K-Run]

To discuss about Chalice and Workshop deals precisely with the players' perception of the format right now. If that perception is negative, some people will want to say their opinions about what could be done for the format's health.

I don't care about card availability. If playing with Bone Shredder means I win on 1st or 2nd turn, I'll ask for Bone Shredder to be restricted (if it's the problem card, of course). Playing in an environment where you have little to no player interaction is unacceptable. The rarity of a card is NOT a valid reason for it to be not restricted.

BTW, I'm not against deck optimisation. I think every deckbuilder's ultimate goal is to build a deck so powerful that a card of it has to be restricted. That shows that you rule your format.

Quote It would be nice to move the fundamental turn of Type 1 back to turn 3.  It seems like a lot of people [calling for restrictions] want to move it back to turn 4-6.

Yes, totally. But don't worry : the great minds of T1 will shorten that number of turns really fast. It's their main objective.

[David Hernandez]

Maybe what we really need is for WotC to REPRINT the power nine.

I'm serious.  I paid a LOT of money for my power cards, but I would rather see everyone have an opportunity.  

From what I am reading, a lot of you are headed in the direction that "we should only be allowed to play one card of each type in T1".  One FoW, one Chalice, one Counterspell, one Goblin Welder...etc.

Maybe this is a bigger issue.  

If Wizards reprinted the power 9, and guaranteed that there was one pack per CASE that had a full set of power 9 plus 6 other big cards (perhaps 1 Workshop, 1 Mana Drain, 1 Juzam, etc.), then I think the issue of running 4 Chalice would go away.

I say that even though I recognize that many people believe that Chalice is going to define the environment.  They may be right.  They may be wrong.

Until we actually start playing, we wont know, and even then I think it will take 6-months of innovative deck building to figure it out.  

Does that mean that we are fighting against a single card?  In my opinion, "No".  It just means that for a few months we are going to need to adjust.

--Dave.

[Dante]

Quote (K-Run @ Oct. 10 2003,17:01)I don't care about card availability. If playing with Bone Shredder means I win on 1st or 2nd turn, I'll ask for Bone Shredder to be restricted (if it's the problem card, of course). Playing in an environment where you have little to no player interaction is unacceptable. The rarity of a card is NOT a valid reason for it to be not restricted.

Quote It would be nice to move the fundamental turn of Type 1 back to turn 3.  It seems like a lot of people [calling for restrictions] want to move it back to turn 4-6.

Yes, totally. But don't worry : the great minds of T1 will shorten that number of turns really fast. It's their main objective.

I think the main objective is to build the best deck possible that wins the most, one of the best ways is to win fast...(yes I agree with you).

I think we agree that games with little to no player interaction is bad, thus, Long.dec and Longer.dec are bad for the format.  I can see calling for cards in those decks to be restricted.

The problem I have is calling for workshop's restriction, intuition's restriction, etc.  I don't think anyone can claim that current non-long.dec decks don't offer other players interaction, even current workshop decks.  Yes, sometimes wMUD goes turn 1 sphere of resistance, turn 2 tangle wire.  Sometime you will go turn 1 xxxxx (whatever).  Even dragon can't go off turn 2 without a really good hand (bazaar, mox, black land, animate effect, plus dragon in the top 10 cards), same for Hulk.  

Some things like MUD with Chalice may push things to that state of little interaction, but so far all we've seen on this site is "we've been testing chalice mud and blah blah blah".  No one has posted a decklist with playtesting backed up and we can all see "wow that is degenerate, my opponent won't get a turn" like we could for Mind's Desire, playtest it in apprentice/MWS for an hour, and see the power.

Thus, I think calling for the restriction of any non-long card is way premature and typically is the excuse that people [but not everyone] without expensive cards use to rant about how "broken/unfair/whatever" certain cards are.

The best thing for the format would be to just BAN the whole storm mechanic from Type 1; The ability to replay a bunch of cheap spells was always there, you just needed to be able to pick up a bigger head of steam than that with academy.  Storm was the new finisher that didn't require the mana input that stroke/fireball/geyser did, just lots of cheap spells.  And if a new academy deck does the same thing, ban it too.  Unfortunately, banning things is some sort of taboo to the DCI.

edit - I agree with Dave, but that's even LESS likely to happen (reprint power) than banning all the stupid storm cards.  

Dante\n\n

[Matt The Great]

The DCI doesn't like to ban things, and so far it hasn't had to. But the day is coming, and Academy, Jar, Timetwister, Bargain, Will, and possibly Desire will probably be the first on the chopping block.

Honestly, the only one I would miss is Will, because that card's good everywhere. But I've watched a lot of great cards that work in acceptable decks get used and abused in other decks - Workshop made a great deck in TNT, but MUD threatens to snap it in half. LED makes Madness fun, but it also powers the most digusting deck we've had since Necro was restricted. And Will is great everywhere, but there is clearly only one deck that truly uses it to its full power.

[Dante]

Quote (Matt The Great @ Oct. 10 2003,20:37)The DCI doesn't like to ban things, and so far it hasn't had to. But the day is coming, and Academy, Jar, Timetwister, Bargain, Will, and possibly Desire will probably be the first on the chopping block.

Honestly, the only one I would miss is Will, because that card's good everywhere. But I've watched a lot of great cards that work in acceptable decks get used and abused in other decks - Workshop made a great deck in TNT, but MUD threatens to snap it in half. LED makes Madness fun, but it also powers the most digusting deck we've had since Necro was restricted. And Will is great everywhere, but there is clearly only one deck that truly uses it to its full power.

If you simply banned storm cards and academy...what else would need it??

Dante

[Razor]

Here is my opinion on the problems with T1 right now.   I posted this in several places including the Iso-Sligh thread.

Quote Posted: Oct. 10 2003,06:13    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Generally people here are reacting to Challice by tweaking their Aggro decks with more diverse mana curves.  However, let me point out that diverse casting curves unequivocally exclude Sligh plain and simple.  Challice kills Sligh; however, Burn may yet be resurrected.  Mox Monkey, Heretics and Vandals are more important now than ever especially because they can kill Challice.

The problem with diverse mana curves has always been Mana Drain.  Challice/Keg wreck the bottom of the curve.  Mana Drain wrecks the middle and top of the curve.

Post Mirrodin until Drain gets the restriction it deserves both  Combo (non-Dragon) and Aggro decks are in big trouble while Keeper decks will reign.

Varied mana curves are more fun anyways.  I still pray for the restriction of Mana Drain.

\n\n

[LemanRuss]

Yes, maybe restricting wishes could be a good think.

For Chrome Mox, it is played in Long or Academy and just doubles the number of moxen the deck plays, with a minor drawback considering how these decks work; it is better than Mox Diamond which is restricted.

[Milton]

Amazing.  Just reading through this thread leads me to believe that a great many people have a poor perception of type I.

Workshop + Challice won't kill budget decks.  It just won't.  If your playing a budget deck (Sligh, Sui, Fish, Stompy) and you think you are competitive, Workshop + X kills you.  If X is Sphere of Resistance, you are screwed anyway.  If X is Tangle Wire or Smokestack you are screwed anyway.  If X is Challice of the Void you are screwed.  I'm not buying this argument that Challice kills budget decks.  Budget decks v. Workshop.dec (Mud, Stacker, TnT (which I think will come back again)) has never, ever been a good match-up.

On the other hand, budget decks get a powerful weapon against Long.dec.  Fish and Suicide get a great weapon against Goblins.

Challice is a great card.  It doesn't need restriction.  It doesn't further break Workshop, it just gives the Workshop player some tough choices as to what to put in their deck, leading me to believe that Challice will go the way of Null Rod; a card that is a maindeck staple of some decks but is a sideboard card for many others.

[Bastian]

I agree, and JP touched the point on what concerns budget decks. Budget decks are dead from the point workshop decks exist. Ever since TNT exists that decks and players on a budget either adapt themselves to get expensive cards or just pass to another format. Is that it? Is that the way it should be?

Honestly, I really don't know what to think right now.

I think that, as JP said before, budget decks have been dead ever since workshop decks became popular. The remaining question is wether most of the type 1 community is happy with this, or not. Do we want budget decks to be viable again or not?

If not then a vast number of players either go out and start getting expensive cards to adapt or are forced to give up on the format. Or... they could be left to play on suboptimal metagames where they won't confront powered decks. But then, how about those who want to play type 1 and end up facing power decks? Should they give up?

I repeat, because this is reminescent of early discussions about type 1. In the long run type 1 is far cheaper than some other formats because you only need to buy the cards once. On the other hand the entry fee is far too expensive for some players who'd rather spend a couple o' hundred bucks to make a deck for type 2 rather than to spend them to buy a single card to be able to play type 1.

It is ironic that after the article that MaRo made about type 1 being too expensive there were so many replies to it about type 1 being acessible to less fortunate people who haven't access to the power cards. And then he wrote another one using our arguments about the viability of type 1 for EVERYONE. There was a time we replied and defended our format if someone said, amongst other things, that the format wasn't easily accessible unless you had power. Now... that's not possible any longer because most recent decks, amongst which workshop decks, have made it impossible for the player on a budget to compete.

Should type 1 become an elite format? Or should it be a format available to everyone who wants to compete?

[rozetta]

For years, Wizards have been printing cards which help aid the viability of budget decks - wasteland, jackal pup, price of progress,  blood moon, back to basics, nantuko shade, etc. etc.

Now they print a card which will help all decks, but maybe moreso those decks which are not strictly budget.

The fact is, I'm really not interested in playing budget decks because the non-budget decks are so much more interesting to play and offer a more exciting experience. Almost every game I play in type 1 I get hammered by wastelands, price of progress, blood moons and so on. In this respect, I think there are two sides to the coin when it comes down to it.

The fact that current builds of budget decks will not be viable doesn't mean the decks won't adapt either. Red has plenty of good options in the 2 mana slot, starting with cards it's been adopting as of late, such as pyrostatic pillar and ankh of mishra. Then there are new cards such as shrapnel blast.

Sorry if this sounded like a rant, but I've just heard so much complaining about the death of budget decks that I felt like chiming in.

[jpmeyer]

Quote I agree, and JP touched the point on what concerns budget decks. Budget decks are dead from the point workshop decks exist. Ever since TNT exists that decks and players on a budget either adapt themselves to get expensive cards or just pass to another format. Is that it? Is that the way it should be?

I think you might be taking this slightly out of context.  I don't mean it in the sense that Workshop decks had budget decks obsolete.  I mean it more along the line of that the time when people broke Workshop decks was really the first time that the fundamental turn had started to drop.  Before then it, the fundamental turn really was like turn 4 (and it really was that slow.  I remember quite a lot of people, myself included, saying that Extended was actually a considerably faster format than Type 1.)  TnT, Mask, GAT, and the subsequent speeding up of Keeper to deal with them dropped it to turn 3.  Then, as people worked even more and more, with Mud, Tog, and the various combo decks, it dropped it down to around turn 2.

Therefore, to make budget decks playable again (how many budget decks have won Dülmen since its inception?  If you guessed zero, hand that man a prize!) the fundamental turn would probably have to get raised back up to around 4, and that would require some massive restrictions to just about every deck, and would basically turn Type 1 into Extended with Dark Ritual and Goblin Lackey.\n\n

[Bastian]

Quote Chalice is just the rude awakening to budget players that they should have noticed 9 months ago.  Their decks weren't viable then when they had to play against GAT and TnT either.

They were and at least suicide black and sligh had the chance to make decent appearances and win games. But right now they don't. It's an example.

I argue against how stupid and ironic it is that people used to fight back any kind of arguments saying that type 1 is an elitist format for those who can play it and then replied back saying it was viable to play on the budget and make a decent appearance because that isn't viable any longer. And sometime ago before the increased popularity of Workshop decks it seems that mattered to some people and right now it doesn't. This I don't understand and no one has yet replied to.

Quote The fact is, I'm really not interested in playing budget decks because the non-budget decks are so much more interesting to play and offer a more exciting experience. Almost every game I play in type 1 I get hammered by wastelands, price of progress, blood moons and so on. In this respect, I think there are two sides to the coin when it comes down to it.

Heck, I'd play with powered decks if I could too and other players would too! But we can't, so what are we left with? Do we give up on the format? It's sad when the game gets to this point. And this isn't whining, because... read above: it used to matter to some people that this format was readily available to people who didn't have access to certain cards and it seems that what it used to be a stereotype about Vintage now fits the format so well.

Blood Moon, Pyrostatic Pillar, etc are all good cards but the decks they would fit in aren't that good any more because Workshop decks with or without chalice are making them obsolete.

Quote The fact that current builds of budget decks will not be viable doesn't mean the decks won't adapt either. Red has plenty of good options in the 2 mana slot, starting with cards it's been adopting as of late, such as pyrostatic pillar and ankh of mishra. Then there are new cards such as shrapnel blast.

I seriously doubt that budget decks can prevail in a post-Mirrodin environment. With Chalice around Workshop decks only get better, which they don't need to, and other decks get strictly worse. But as it is correct to say... I'll sit and wait to see what happens, even though I IMHO, think that we all know what's actually going to happen.

I'd love to see people who say budget decks aren't going to be hit proving in playtesting what they say, by posting decks and/or deck results. It's also quite funny to see that those who are the least bothered by the Chalice entering type 1 and making Workshop decks better are those who have access to the power cards.\n\n

[Dante]

Quote (Bastian @ Oct. 11 2003,07:47)Should type 1 become an elite format? Or should it be a format available to everyone who wants to compete?

I think your question is missing a few key words at the end:

"Or should it be a format available to everyone who wants to compete...at a reasonable ($300/deck or less) price?"

and to expand on that, the real question:

Will type 1 allow for anyone who wants to enter the format and spend $500 or less to be able to be competitive [competitive = realistic chance at 4-2 or 5-2ish record] if they put in the proper time for deckbuilding and playtesting, and have a certain skill set (rules knowledge, rulings, timing, etc).

I'll define "budget" as someone who may have 1-2 pieces of power, no real access to workshops/bazaars/masks type of cards, mana drains are maybe, but any card under $25 is they can get [buy or trade].  True budget decks (e.g. $40 total or under for a deck) haven't been competitive in awhile.

6 months ago, I would have answered, "yes, its possible for the budget [see "budget" definition above] player to be truly competitive and have a legitimate shot of 5-2 record.  They have a significant, but not overwhelming, starting disadvantage."

I don't think I can answer "yes" anymore with the current, pre Mirrodin environment.

Assuming one needs a certain amount of expensive, out of print cards to be "competitive", and the print run of those cards being in the thousands, not millions, like modern print runs, there are probably 3,000 people maximum who can be "competitive" at high-level tournament Type I at a given time (3,000 is an approximation, I could go look up the print runs, but it wouldn't vary by more than a factor of 3).

This is going to be the case (~3,000 - 6,000 competitive people at once) in sanctioned play until one of two things happen:

1. The DCI steps in and through restrictions/bannings eliminates those powerful cards with small print runs.  This is a very common and popular idea with a lot of people; however, I think that this action eliminates a whole core of cards that differentiates Type 1 from 1.5 or extended.  At that point, "Type 1" is dead.

2. WotC breaks its policy on reprints and reprints many of the older, out of print cards.  The chances of this happening is very small.  Doing this would have to be an outside-the-normal three expansion a year plan (chronicles type set), as to not upset Standard or Extended or the Pro Tour.  Also, a lot of people who aren't Type 1 tournament players have these cards (casual players who like old cards and collectors) and there would be an outcry from them (offset however by the opportunity for millions of new people to get these cards).  The chance of this happening, unfortunately, is much smaller than #1 above.

There is another option stores have to generate interest in Type 1: have all the tournaments be proxy tournaments and allow 10 proxies.  What cards really are the barrier to entry for each of the top decks?  It's a short list: some subset of the Power 9 and playset of 4 workshop/bazaar/mana drain type cards.  A 10 proxy allowance means you can have that playset of 4 [whatever] and 6 of the Power 9.

The disadvantages to that are that you lose Vintage sanctioning.  But to be honest, so what?  It's not like there's any kind of Grand Prix/Pro Tour/etc that Vintage rating matters for (unless I'm mistaken, which very well could be true).  Honestly, what does Vintage rating matter for?

The knock against this is the backlash from players who HAVE the expensive cards and feel that others should have to actually get the cards as well.  I think the interest it could generate would more than offset this factor though (based on my experiences with people who have a all/majority of expensive cards and their feelings towards proxy tournaments).

just some more ramblings...

Dante

Edit - @Bastian's post right above this one - Bastian, if you restrit workshop, the budget decks that aren't competitive aren't going to magically be competitive again.  All the good decks have gotten much faster/better, not just workshop decks.  Again, look at the top decks from some of the recent tournaments for placing of workshop-based decks: October Castricum, 2 in the top8; September Castricum, 2 in the top 8, Sept Dulmen, 1 in the top 8, 4 in the top 20; NE tournament Zherbus won with "tier 2.dec", 0 in the top 8, etc.  People keep saying "workshop decks are killing xxxxx", but I don't think the results are there to justify saying anything more than workshop decks are good.\n\n

[jpmeyer]

The reason that the whole "Type 1 isn't that expensive" idea worked for a while (back in say, 2001,) was because the gap between card prices for Type 1 and Standard/Extended was much narrower.  Your Fires deck in Standard would have like 20 $10-20 rares in it (Birds of Paradise, Saproling Burst, Urza's Rage, Spiritmonger, and Rishadan Port,) or your Oath deck in Extended would have like 15 $15 dual lands in it (in addition to Force of Will, Oath of Druids, and so on.)  Also, Type 1 single prices were about 2/5s of what they were now.  $80 Moxes were pretty common on eBay, as were $5 Sinkholes and $15 Nether Voids.  The term "budget" worked back then a lot better too since your most expensive cards probably weren't more expensive than the most expensive cards in most Standard decks.

Nowadays though, you have Moxes going for $200 each while chase rares tend to top off at around $10 each (with the only exceptions really being Exalted Angel and Chrome Mox, the latter of which I expect to drop as the hype around it cools down a little.)\n\n

[Bastian]

Quote I'll define "budget" as someone who may have 1-2 pieces of power, no real access to workshops/bazaars/masks type of cards, mana drains are maybe, but any card under $25 is they can get [buy or trade].  True budget decks (e.g. $40 total or under for a deck) haven't been competitive in awhile.

I agree with you and it was with a similiar idea of budget that I was talking about it. I should have made it clear, but you made it so for me. Thanks:)

I doubt that any budget deck that existed before actually costed less than $40 other than stompy. Budget for me would go as far as I would pay for a deck in dual-legal extended months ago. I suppose the concept will vary to each person.

Quote 6 months ago, I would have answered, "yes, its possible for the budget [see "budget" definition above] player to be truly competitive and have a legitimate shot of 5-2 record.  They have a significant, but not overwhelming, starting disadvantage."

Well, unless I see anywhere allowing the use of proxies, I'm definitly dropping off type 1. I love the format because of the ammount of different cards and the things you can pull with them, but I also loved the challenge to pull off a good deck without having access to all the power it's not possible any more.\n\n

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

Well, as we are at budget decks, I think as long as we consider getting access to 4 a playset of Bazaars or Masks (not more expensive than two pieces of power...) budget, there are many viable "budget" decks. For example I know Womprax has his unpowered Vengeur Mask build and it is able to compete with the top decks (not counting long, which is a really bad matchup, but that deck is an abomination anyway). I think Madness should be viable with only Bazaar for "power", too.

As an aside, I beat ChaliceKeeper with my post mirro Sligh 4 times in a row (ok, it has Mox R and Lotus but it should work fine without), and half the games where sbed .

[Toast]

Quote TnT (which I think will come back again)

I started reading this thread kind of late so I was overwhelmed with things to respond to and inevitably missed something in my skimming but this is the one intellegent comment I have seen in this entire thread...kudos.

Budget decks are hosed by countless cards...they aren't good unless they are designed perfectly to hose the particular metagame that they are being played in....why? because  budget decks are for people with a budget which means their selection of good cards really narrows. They are at a disadvantage by default. DEAL WITH IT.

Chalice is a good card, but for it to function well you still need a good understanding of what your opponent is playing, and it does not help out any sort of combo. Does this warrant restriction....not in my opinion. Chalice is not unstoppable; I'll let you in on a little secret: the best way to get around chalice is to run a fucking mana curve. It will be difficult for anyone playing chalice to cast one for 3 and if they are able resolve a chalice for 4 how the hell were you planning on winning to begin with.

How does workshop not have a drawback? you get 3 mana that can only be used to play artifacts (which by the way is not broken in a combo sense because every good artifact that helps out combo costs zero anyways) you waste a land drop for something that is non-basic and has virtually no use other than playing artifacts. you can't use it for activated abilities, you can't use it to play any of the real superstars in your deck, and you have to dedicate the majority of your deck to artifacts which are extremely easy to hate out, sorcery speed, and by nature more expensive. workshop basically negates the drawback of artifacts being expensive at the cost of having a more versatile land. Not a big drawback, but a big enough one to keep the card from getting out of hand.

Workshop decks are not that degenerate. Yes Welder Mud is a powerful lock deck but its huge weakness that has been greatly downplayed is the fact that it doesn't have an engine. Skullcaps are horrible and on top of that you can only run 4 of them which isn't enough to reliably draw into early in the game. Stax isn't any more broken than academy, Stacker 3 is just survival-less TnT, and TnT for some reason people think is bad.

Neither workshop or chalice need to be restricted, I won't go as far to say nothing should be restricted just because moxen and consults should be nuked by default.

[Sapromancer]

ask yourself:

is chalice of the void more broken/distorting than entomb?

entomb is restricted fellas.

i like the chalice from a budget aspect. but chalice will be most abused by powered decks. shooting budget in the foot instead of helping it.

i also think that if it isn't restricted, it could VERY easily cause the restriction of workshop.

[Toast]

If we used that same method with a different card, like....mox diamond or doomsday. Half the fucking game would be restricted. Certain cards are on that list because they fall into the same category as other better cards that are restricted or because they give the possibillity of creating some janky combo that nobody would actually end up playing. Reasonably priced Tutors and artifacts that produce more mana than they cost traditionally make the list, some good recursion spells make the list, and things that flagrantly help out combo (including insanely good drawspells) make the list.

Chalice of the void falls into none of these categories.

[Bastian]

Gush does, but mostly because it made Gro-a-tog such a sick degenerate deck. Chalice is probably the card that'll throw workshop decks over the top, and most probably, just as gush was, it will be restricted.

[K-Run]

The problem here is that you'll have to restrict all the future strong artifacts because of one card - Workshop. It allows you to play cards that are appropriately costed/designed like they were broken cards. That used to be Solomoxen's role. In a deck like MUD, Workshop really is Mox #6-9.

So instead of restricting properly deisgned cards, why don't we cut the mana acceleration?

[Milton]

Quote entomb is restricted fellas.

I thought that was a consideration Wizards made based on Type 1.5.

[jntemp777]

Quote (K-Run @ Oct. 12 2003,08:00)The problem here is that you'll have to restrict all the future strong artifacts because of one card - Workshop. It allows you to play cards that are appropriately costed/designed like they were broken cards. That used to be Solomoxen's role. In a deck like MUD, Workshop really is Mox #6-9.

So instead of restricting properly deisgned cards, why don't we cut the mana acceleration?

K-Run has hit the nail on the head.

And please for all of you that think Chalice+Workshop interaction is not just ridiculously broken, playtest Chalice o' Mud (or Chalice o' TNT, or Chalice o' Stax or a variant thereof) against non-Workshop based decks.

[Smmenen]

jntemp.  I really think your problem is that you haven't developed/playtested enough against non workshop post-mirrodin tier 1 decks.  Both Dragon and Keeper have excellent game against Chalice Mud.

Steve

[jntemp777]

Steve,

You are right that I have not done any testing against post mirrodin Dragon.  

In testing, Pre-Mirrodin Keeper folded against Chalice o' mud about 50/50 (a little in mud's favor).  Do you have a post Mirrodin Keeper decklist?  I'd love to test it out in our playgroup.

[jpmeyer]

We've been using one like mine in Eastman's Keeper thread and have had success beating Mud with it.

[Rico Suave]

Quote (Toast @ Oct. 12 2003,09:50)If we used that same method with a different card, like....mox diamond or doomsday. Half the fucking game would be restricted. Certain cards are on that list because they fall into the same category as other better cards that are restricted or because they give the possibillity of creating some janky combo that nobody would actually end up playing. Reasonably priced Tutors and artifacts that produce more mana than they cost traditionally make the list, some good recursion spells make the list, and things that flagrantly help out combo (including insanely good drawspells) make the list.

Chalice of the void falls into none of these categories.

But neither do Black Vise and/or Strip Mine.

I think you're forgetting a category.

[Toast]

the difference is, chalice requires knowledge of what the opponent is playing to use it properly. strip mine and black vise are very good disruption that requires no skill to use. Not a big distinction but an important one.