Paragon Keeper

[FeverDog]

@Shadowlotus
You may very well be right, and a third Brainstorm may prove better than a third Wish. All i was stating is that i think another Wish is preferable to the Zorb at least, i will have to test the extra Brainstorm but either way i think both cards are better than Zorb in that slot.

[Freddie]

I consider Zorb a life prolonger, since sometimes all you need is a few more turns to get a handel on a situation, especially if you have been mana flooded.

It is also there for the "combo- rific" Balance machine.

I will occasionally Balance / Zorb during a Yawgwill, before dropping a land, with blue mana in my pool to ancestral, and impulse a few times.

With my opponent sporting NO lands, and 1-2 cards in hand, and me with all the advantage, and another turn coming, the game is so far removed from winnible for my opponent, it is not funny.

But I think that Zorb is never a GOOD card.

Not by itself.

And I would sure hate to be holding it when my opponent casts Yawgwill, or Mind twist, or Gorilla Shaman.

It is OK most of the time, and is really only worth the mention or excitment when combined with Balance, simply making Balance go from a GREAT card, to being a BROKEN one.

Even if Academy is in the deck all Zorb usually does is just upgrade other cards, while just being marginal itself.

I think that this discussion is going in the right direction as well.

----------------------------

The main Substitute suggestions thus far for zorb are:

* Dromar's Charm:
Being ultra versatile... conter, life gain, or creature kill, all for UWB. While color intensive, it could be considered a "better" card then Zorb in its flexibility, and still serving a similar role.

* Renewed Faith:
Cycles (Gaining 2 life there), or for 3 mana gains you 6 life.

* Brainstorm:
While not emulating zorb at all, works by increasing the overall consistancy of the deck in other ways.

* Cunning wish:
Pointing an even greater reliance on the SB, fetching Renewed Faith, Dromar's Charm, or even Hero's Reunion. The additional 3cc spell and forced implications of stretching SB slots further may prove this a problimatic, although not unworkable problem.

* COP Red:
Nailing the coffin shut, game 1 vs sligh, and combo-ing with wish, and SB Alter Reality, to make it Less of a dead card vs other matchups.
-----------------------------

Does anyone know of other possible substitute for Zorb they would be willing to suggest?

-Freddie

[Rakso]

On Cunning Wish #3: I didn't hear that complaint when people were running at least three Facts or Fiction...  Anyway, I wouldn't bother running Dromar's Charm from the side. I'd run Renewed Faith, or Heroes' Reunion if I could.

On Zuran Orb: How is it general purpose utility? Sac my land to counter your Wasteland?

[Zherbus]

OK, I'll be the bad guy here. Whats wrong with Zuran Orb? I have found Zuran Orb to work nicely, and I will fully advocate its continued use in Keeper. Its not messing with my wins now, so why 'fix' it? Seriously, what is Keeper losing to so badly that Zuran Orb deserves the boot?

The way I see it, Keepers TYPICAL toughest matches include Mask, TnT, Gro, BBS, and URPhid. While none of these are much affected by Zuran Orb, I feel that the matches we are taking fairly easily (AKA burn based aggro) will become on that list for marginal improvement to those aforementioned matches that can swing either way.

If I felt I have no need for Zuran Orb, Brainstorm would win over the 3rd Cunning Wish if it were those two choices or perhaps the return of Dismantling Blow to the maindeck. Until then, Zuran Orb will be giving me extra turns against aggro.

[theorigamist]

I'm a big fan of Dromar's Charm over Zorb.  My main reason is that Keeper is all about versatility and a Charm fits that role much better than the single-minded Zorb.  Also, Charm is another counter, and I'm a more controlling player, and Charm pitches to FoW, so it's doubly useful in the countering department.  Also, I've never really gained more than about 6 life with Zorb anyway (at least I've never needed that much), so I can still use the Dromar's Charm to the same effect.

Quick question, has anybody ever really needed the -2/-2 ability?

[spin13]

Though I have not tried it myself, there are a few who have been satisfied with three Wishes.  Not only does it allow for interesting choices like Coffin Purge over Ebony Charm, but it allows for an overall different playstyle.  I don't think the point is to fetch three different cards throughout a single game, though that is still reasonable.  Its more so that you see that Wish more often, or can pitch it with less worries.  Essentially, you create situations where you use a redundant card to perform a task rather than using restricted cards to find something to perform the task.  Why use your Mystical on a Swords when you have 3 Wishes that can get it for you?  It allows you to Mystical for Mind Twist, Balance, or Will instead.

Personally, I would rather remove a Brainstorm for the extra Wish than remove a card like ZOrb for it.  My feelings are similar to Steve's on this; why cut it if its not bad.  I also think that though burn based strategies may be of little concern now, that might change with the loss of ZOrb, and I'd rather not waste SB space on lifegain.  Besides, I don't like the feeling of having 3 Wishes, 3 Tutors, and 2 Brainstorms in the deck.  It gives it that "all search, no function" feel that lead to the cutting of Impulse a year or so back.  I'd much rather run a single slot to perform a function or two than run an extra tutor to find something that does less.

And if you do decide to cut ZOrb, I don't think looking for replacements is the right idea.  You're cutting lifegain for a reason; don't simply dilute some other part of your deck for it, actually add something to your deck.

 -Eric

[cooberp]

We ran Impulse a year ago?

[spin13]

Meh.  A couple years ago.  When isn't the concern; it's that at one point we did and most of us no longer do, and for a reason.

[ShadowLotus]

Quote (Rakso @ Dec. 25 2002,20:29)On Cunning Wish #3: I didn't hear that complaint when people were running at least three Facts or Fiction.

There's a difference between a card that draws a major amount of cards from your maindeck, to one that is a tutor of your sideboard.  Personally, I'd rather have more cards that allow me to dig through my deck during a game, then relying heavily on being able to having access to my SB the majority of the time.  If I did well w/ Keeper before running Cunning Wish, then I'm sure I can do even better now while running it; but I don't feel it's appropriate to make the wishes the pinnacle point of my success while playing Keeper competitively.

Quote (Zherbus @ Dec. 25 2002,20:30)Whats wrong with Zuran Orb? I have found Zuran Orb to work nicely, and I will fully advocate its continued use in Keeper. Its not messing with my wins now, so why 'fix' it? ...

The way I see it, Keepers TYPICAL toughest matches include Mask, TnT, Gro, BBS, and URPhid. While none of these are much affected by Zuran Orb, I feel that the matches we are taking fairly easily (AKA burn based aggro) will become on that list for marginal improvement to those aforementioned matches that can swing either way.

I'll recap what I said to you on mIRC by saying the match-ups that you listed are mainly the reasons I'm looking at cutting Zuran Orb in favor of something else.  As you said, in those cases, Zuran Orb does little to affect the outcome of those games, so that's why it's the slot I'm looking at changing.  If there's a better card for that slot which will improve my match-ups against decks that are tough anyway, then I'd really love to know what it is.  I'll be the first one to admit that if testing proves Zuran Orb to be the better card for that position, then I'm putting it back in.

Also, I believe your assessment of the overall environment of burn-based aggro is very accurate - it'll always be around b/c it's easy for players to put together.  However, the reason I don't feel cutting Zuran Orb will weaken my match-ups w/ those decks is b/c many times I don't need it to take control of a game and take the win.

It might just be me, but I don't do well against Sligh, Stacker 2, etc. just b/c I have a lifegain card in my maindeck.  The majority of the time, it doesn't even see play, since I often don't need to tutor for it.  If I get it, that's great.  Even if I do, it doesn't mean I'm going to activate it.  Plus, when I do, I rarely need more than 4-6 life from it, so that's why I'm purely theorizing that I won't miss it enough that it'd warrant its inclusion again.

After all, I could be COMPLETELY wrong about this, so we'll have to see.  Enough Keeper players are questioning whether it still belongs in the deck, that I'm willing to do some testing to see where I stand on the subject (just like I did w/ the Vampiric Tutor issue and the addition of the fetchlands).  It's worth a shot.

Quote (Zherbus @ Dec. 25 2002,20:30)If I felt I have no need for Zuran Orb, Brainstorm would win over the 3rd Cunning Wish if it were those two choices or perhaps the return of Dismantling Blow to the maindeck. Until then, Zuran Orb will be giving me extra turns against aggro.

That's what I was thinking as well, since I've really liked Brainstorm in the deck, and I wouldn't mind trying out three of them.

My thinking is that, just as Zuran Orb gives you extra turns against aggro, that Brainstorm is doing a related function; since it allows you to draw deeper into your deck, as if you had additional draw phases from supplementary turns.  Either way, it should provide you (the Keeper player) enough time and/or answers to the threats that it'll allow you to take the win.  If it doesn't, then no amount of marginal lifegain is going to allow you to recover fast enough to gain control.

Quote (spin13 @ Dec. 25 2002,22:39)Though I have not tried it myself, there are a few who have been satisfied with three Wishes.  Not only does it allow for interesting choices like Coffin Purge over Ebony Charm, but it allows for an overall different playstyle.  I don't think the point is to fetch three different cards throughout a single game, though that is still reasonable.  Its more so that you see that Wish more often, or can pitch it with less worries.  Essentially, you create situations where you use a redundant card to perform a task rather than using restricted cards to find something to perform the task.  Why use your Mystical on a Swords when you have 3 Wishes that can get it for you?  It allows you to Mystical for Mind Twist, Balance, or Will instead.

I thought about this for a long time, and while I generally disagree w/ running 3x Cunning Wishes, I understand the point you're making.  It's very much an issue of one's playstyle.

Most games, I can't really see an instance where I'd reasonably want three cards from my sideboard that badly, since there are enough answers in Keeper's maindeck that I don't have to be heavily dependant on them.  Plus, w/ only five pitch cards (4x Force of Will and 1x Misdirection), I don't want to have to hold on to extra wishes just b/c they're not pulling their weight (to the point where I need to either pitch them or reshuffle them back into my deck w/ Brainstorm).

Quote (spin13 @ Dec. 25 2002,22:39)Personally, I would rather remove a Brainstorm for the extra Wish than remove a card like ZOrb for it.  My feelings are similar to Steve's on this; why cut it if its not bad.  I also think that though burn based strategies may be of little concern now, that might change with the loss of ZOrb, and I'd rather not waste SB space on lifegain.  Besides, I don't like the feeling of having 3 Wishes, 3 Tutors, and 2 Brainstorms in the deck.  It gives it that "all search, no function" feel that lead to the cutting of Impulse a year or so back.  I'd much rather run a single slot to perform a function or two than run an extra tutor to find something that does less.

It's not that it's a "bad" card per say - it's just not the "best" card most of the time.  Enough so, testing should be done to see if there's a better card for that slot.

I don't see running a lifegain card in the SB as a waste of space - since this is the same argument players gave for not running a lone Blue Elemental Blast against NBLH, for not running Powder Kegs due to their ph34r of Suicide Black (and instead using Pyroclasm), for "bastardizing" their SBs w/ situational Instants to use w/ the wishes, etc.  If the change works, then why not?  Zuran Orb is a marginal/sub-optimal draw during enough games anyway.

Also, I don't understand why you're comparing Impluse w/ Brainstorm (or Cunning Wish, which I'm not saying is the answer to the problem).  Most of us don't run it, and the effects of both are completely different (especially w/ all the shuffling effects we now have).  What I'm saying is that Zuran Orb serves a function that usually isn't needed, so wouldn't a card that digs deeper into answers be a better choice?

Obviously, even though I disagree w/ you and Steve at the moment, I really appreciate both your thoughts on the subject (and everyone else, too!) - it helps me better logically breakdown the choices I'm making, and greatly aids in my testing.  Thanks for hearing me out (and reading this super long post).  It might turn out, in the end, that I agree w/ you both and keep Zuran Orb in the deck after I try out the changes after the holidays.

EDIT:  I also wanted to add, that the addition of the fetchlands over the full complement of City of Brass makes Zuran Orb that much less useful than it once was.  Before, I saw myself usually trying to make up for the pain caused by my own 5-color lands against good aggro, rather than countering the damage the opponent was hitting me for by using the Zuran Orb for lifegain.  Once I dropped down to 1x City of Brass and 4x fetchlands, I found I was much better off, and that I was winning match-ups against optimal burn-based aggro w/ a much higher life total when all was said-and-done.

In summary, back when Keeper players were running the complete set of City of Brass (and to a lesser extent, Sylvan Library when looking at combo/control match-ups), Zuran Orb was much more necessary to offset the combined damage of the cities and aggro threats.  Now that most of us play a completely different manabase than we did a few months ago, it might be time to look at other options for the slot held by Zuran Orb.

In the end, how much extra life does a Keeper player need to beat aggro anyway?

[BigChuck]

I think another thing that should be taken into consideration, is that you are technically playing with less lands then before, because of the fetchlands. You are playing with (up to) four less lands then before, which leads to four less lands to sacrifice, which leads to not having enough lands to sacrifice to make a difference.  I know with the fetchlands you get less mana flood and better card drawing, but they really weaken Zuran Orb. Once you get to the point where you have to  start sacrificing lands, then you might not be able to draw enough land to  ever recover. This is all thoeretical, and I would like to point out that it is working fine for me, but since the card is weaker, maybe there is something that will work better now.

[Zherbus]

My whole point is this:

With Zuran Orb, what is Keeper losing to consistantly? Nothing! Nothing is beating me down more than 50/50. Flame me all you want (at your own peril), but whether its because I have outplayed my opponents or my deck is just all that (2 Island tech!) I'm just not having any impossible matches anywhere.

Sure there are some tough matchups, but nothing thats terribly overwhelming to me. That is Keepers strength in having no unwinnable matchups and I think that every card slot that shifts has to be really examined else you disrupt that 'balance' (no pun intended, I swear!).

If you arent seeing matchups that Zuran Orb is golden in, then thats your metagame call. All the power to you, but if you are just switching some better matchups for some worse matchups, then are you really doing the right thing?

[FeverDog]

Steve, i dont think anyone is winning less than 50% vs Sligh with Keeper, while it can be a tough matchup it is very rare for me to lose to it. If cutting the Zorb for another card makes my deck worse against Sligh but better vs  3-4 other popular decks then im going to test it.

I also wanted to go into what Shadowlotus was saying about the reduced need for life gain. Think about it, two years ago, Keeper was running 4 Cities, 1 Sylvan, 1 Vamp, thats a lot of cards cutting into your life total. Now, all those cards are gone from Keeper, the only source of pain is 4 Fetch lands which hardly compare in terms of lost life. I agree that i wouldnt feel confortable with zero ways to gain life in the deck, but with 3 Wishes and a Renewed Faith in the board, i can still gain 6 life(at eot) if i really need to.

People, you cant think of a 3rd Wish like you are. Its not a matter of whether there are 3 cards in your sb you want game 1, because you arent likely to draw all 3 in that game. Having an extra Wish lets you pitch one without worry, it lets you draw into them more easily so you dont have to waste a tutor effect getting one. With 2 Wishes in the deck, you usually only use 1 during the first game, but with a 3rd you can easily use 2 of your sb cards game one, and thats fine with me. Again, i have to say my testing is no where near finished, and i may end up eating crow before this is over.

[Zherbus]

Quote Steve, i dont think anyone is winning less than 50% vs Sligh with Keeper, while it can be a tough matchup it is very rare for me to lose to it. If cutting the Zorb for another card makes my deck worse against Sligh but better vs  3-4 other popular decks then im going to test it.

Ok, I know that online play has considerably less Sligh, R/G beats, and Zoo and more of Masknought, TnT, bad Keeper players, and Ophidian decks, so this is a metagame thing as far as I'm concerned. These are some of Keepers tougher matchups, in a metagame full of these I probably wouldn't play Keeper.

Even cutting Zuran Orb for a Wish, Brainstorm, or whatever isn't going to improve that matchup much beyond what it already is, so you still stand a fair chance of losing to anyone of these. If you think I am wrong and that one card slot (changed from Zuran Orb) is going to kick ass against them, then great! I'd love to hear your idea.

[Grand Inquisitor]

another minor advantage of wishes, which hasn't been mentioned recently, is that they allow you to get back your flashed chainer's edict, your plowed gorilla shaman, and your yawgwilled ancestral recall.  although if you've already recalled twice and y.willed, you better be already winning!

i agree with steve that running zuran orb is partly a metagame call.  however, in most metagames i think the 3rd wish wins out over the orb (and i believe that in the direction keeper is going, the wish is a better card).

then again, i have never played keeper irl, so go figure.

[Zherbus]

Edict is a sorcery, Shaman is a creature, but you got the Ancestral thing right.

[riverboa11]

Quote (Grand Inquisitor @ Dec. 26 2002,14:43)then again, i have never played keeper irl, so go figure.

That says it all, Steve.

I think I have to agree with Steve and spin on this one.  At the moment, there really is no reason for taking out Zuran Orb.  I mean, I still run into Sligh nearly every tournament I go to.  If you were metagaming for an online enviroment, however, then of course you will barely ever face Sligh (besides those sadistic Sligh zealots).  If that is the case then I guess you can substitute something for ZOrb.

Besides, isn't the sideboard a little too tight at the moment to be squeezing in lifegain?

[Azhrei]

Don't BOARD the Renewed Faith; that misses the point. It CYCLES, which means that you won't ever draw it and stare at it with intense rage because it's a dead card-- and when you do need it, it's six life on the spot.

The fundamental principle behind Paragon Keeper is to eliminate potentially dead cards with Cunning Wish and to smooth out the draws and mana with fetchlands and Brainstorms.

I thought of Renewed Faith after a couple games where CoP: Red was the last card I drew before losing... with Balance or Demonic Tutor being the next card down. With Renewed Faith there, I can cycle it away to get closer to what I need, YawgWill it up if I need life in the matchup (+12 versus Sligh) and maybe even Wish for it after I've Willed it away.

And it's NEVER DEAD. That's the real trick: never having to take a virtual mulligan because you drew Zuran Orb in your opening hand versus combo or control.

[PsychoCid]

Although Az has what I belief to be the proper theory for coming to the optimal final decision for the ZOrb issue, I think the point is nearly moot.

A lot of the less experienced and/or less knowledgeable (even if only by a small margin) players seem to always want to define a decklist so deeply that it is trademarked by every last card included.  No deck, most especially not THE Deck, should ever be acknolwedged to exist as one solid, unbreakable set of 75+ cards.  If you don't take playstyle and at least metagame into account, you're just trying to play Solitaire with a different set of rules.

Trying to work out the optimal list for an unknown/random/evenly balanced meta is one thing, and that is why it's hard to argue with Azhrei's point of view on ZOrb's position.  In the end, if you have one card that's not doing anything for you, or not enough, REPLACE it with something you feel should work better, and try that out.  If it works for you, great--that's what matters.  Not everybody has to have such faith in one card for a particular slot, and that doesn't make either party particularly right or wrong.

Perhaps there are some slots that just cannot or should not be generalized.  I am not stating that the one in question is or is not/should or should not, but rather am opening up a new path to glance down.  Ask yourself if you've thought of that, and then reconsider your footing.

[Rakso]

Zherbus,

I have the exact same thoughts though my version is that Dromar's Charm counters instead of cycles and that's fine by me.

But especially Sligh even weaker now and with Zuran Orb vulnerable to Monkey anyway, I figure an instant that gives life without saccing anything is better overall. Again, we don't even have Sylvan to make Orb useful in other match ups, and Sligh boards out burn that isn't Price of Progress anyway.

[Zherbus]

To be honest, I thought Renewed Faith was something different than it is. That actually changes my opinion a bit. I really need to test it against Sligh, and speak less from my ass. The question remains as to whether it gives enough life fast enough. I could just favor Faith since it works better with my maindeck Dust Bowl and my SB Fracture.

Anyways, sure Zuran Orb is vulnerable to monkey. I just never really had much of a problem killing monkeys before I dropped it. Its not like its hurting anything by sitting in your hand until you're ready to use it.

Playing against Ankh Sligh, sometimes you need just *this* much more of a push. With Zorb, you can at least drop your land to use it once and break even on life.

Honestly, I never see Null Rods. Gay Fish threatened to make an appearance around here but never actually did, Suicide is just about dead with TnT running around, and nothing else is sporting it at the moment.

[Azhrei]

@PsychoCid: Almost all of my testing and theory is for the elusive "random" metagame in which all decks are represented equally and well. That is exactly why my lists have some slots that may change and my sideboard is actually about 30 cards. The stuff I post is always "smart money if you don't know anything about the field" information.

So you're absolutely right.

@Zherbus: Cycling is your daddy. Ankh Sligh isn't so bad IMO if you run Kegs and Gorilla Shaman. It's annoying, but no more than other Sligh versions that don't suck.

@Rakso and anyone else seriously advocating/trying Dromar's Charm: Please, use this card and come to my tournaments so that I can take your lunch money and call you a little whiny bitch while I slap you and make you cry. This has nothing to do with the games you will lose for having a card that will be DEAD against ANY competent opponent; you will be slapped around for not knowing what the hell you are doing. This is like putting the tires from a Chevy Nova on to a Porsche. It will still run more or less the way it should, but anyone who knows cars will think you're a total idiot.

Repeat: Dromar's Charm is BAD. BAD, as in UNPLAYABLE. This is not, has not been, and will likely never be a viable option for anyone interested in building the best deck possible. This is like adding red to Suicide so you can board Pyroclasm.

If you think 2W to draw a card is the same as UWB to counter a spell in terms of deck effeciency and usefulness, you have SERIOUS fundamental misconceptions about card utility, Keeper as a whole, and Magic theory in general.

"Fun" or "cute" cards have NO place in a tournament environment. The closest I ever came to using a fun card was Teferi's Response, and let me tell you how many times that card BROKE a game for me on turn two, or protected a Library or Factory.

The single most important thing to remember in deckbuilding, which I owe entirely to Meridian:

Build your deck so that when your opponent plays against you, they don't have any fun.

Stupid or cute cards have NO place in highly competitive decks. If you want to win, play to win and build to win. Don't succumb to using trash.

[Rakso]

Quote The closest I ever came to using a fun card was Teferi's Response, and let me tell you how many times that card BROKE a game for me on turn two, or protected a Library or Factory.

*cough* Gaea's Blessing *cough* Soothsaying *cough* Cloudchaser Eagle *cough*

[FeverDog]

I know im nitpicking, but just to be correct about things:

The cc of Renewed Faith is 2W but the cycling cost is only 1W. Its also worth noting that you gain 2 life when you cycle it, which isnt bad in any case.

Also, about Faith vs Zorb. I know personally, i much rather pay 3 mana to gain six life than have to sac 3 lands. If your saccing 3+ lands against aggro, your not likely to win the game unless you topdeck Balance or YawgWin.

[BigChuck]

Yeah, I'll have to second Az after playing a few games. Whenever I drew that slot, I debated which card I'd rather have between Zorb, Charm, and Faith, and one thing is for sure: I never wanted Charm. It IS versatile, but it wasn't A) easy to cast, and B)When I could cast it, it just wasn't that good. Renewed Faith gains more life then it, and I'm comfortable with the number of counters and creature kill in my deck.

Renewed Faith just seems like the correct choice. I do like Zorb, but I feel the (virtually) decreased land count weakens it a lot, and Darren phrased it well about the virtual mulligan aspect of it against said decks.

Put it into perspective:  If your in the position where you need to sacrifice much more then 3-4 land, your just delaying the inevitable. In my experiences, you more or less know what's going to happen by then(sans the occasional miracle). Zuran orb costs you four cards(Zorb + 3 land) to gain as much life as faith nets you, and, that, my friends, is the underlying factor in my decision.\n\n

[Freddie]

I did try the Dromar's Charm in the Zorb slot tonight in tournament, and in casual games.

Amiss a flurry of mana and hand disruption, I did not ofter enjoy the 3 different color cc.

I think I will continue to look for another answer for that card.

However;

Quote Charm: Please, use this card and come to my tournaments so that I can take your lunch money and call you a little whiny bitch while I slap you and make you cry. This has nothing to do with the games you will lose for having a card that will be DEAD against ANY competent opponent; you will be slapped around for not knowing what the hell you are doing. This is like putting the tires from a Chevy Nova on to a Porsche. It will still run more or less the way it should, but anyone who knows cars will think you're a total idiot.

Repeat: Dromar's Charm is BAD. BAD, as in UNPLAYABLE. This is not, has not been, and will likely never be a viable option for anyone interested in building the best deck possible. This is like adding red to Suicide so you can board Pyroclasm.

How on earth is this supposed to be condusive or helpful, or opened minded at all?

How is this supposed to help in further sharing of new ideas?

WTF?

-Freddie

[Cuandoman]

It's not, but it's damn amusing to read!

[Black Explosion]

Actually, this is exactly what the MD, and especially the Extreme forum, isn't supposed to be about.

Speaking as a keeper opponent...

Zorb +
(0) cost
As much life as you have lands
Balance tech

Zorb -
Kegged easily
Must have the lands

So really, IMHO, the issue is whether you have lands or not. If you don't, aren't you going to lose even with the 6 life from Renewed faith, or another card? Against any aggro deck, the Zorb, balance is a sure way to screw up everything they hope to accomplish.

[Maxx Matt]

@Az i played your version of the deck at a few tournaments during this weeks in Italy and a note that it perform well, damn well, against almost every deck.

@On topic:
the lifegain problem is a bit controversial to me.
Agaisnt every aggro rather than Sligh, i haven't the need of more than 20 life points.
the worst keeper nightmare is TnT, but if is kncking my head with one or two Beasts and his diabolical engine i can't win wothout removal or bullets in play and all the form of lifegaining proposed don't give you more than one or two turns if you are lucky and it is enough. But,if you are lucky or skilled and  you establish control on turn 3 or 4,no matter how he do you win, even with a single life point.

the real problem is Sligh... he can overhelm your counters with a lot burn and treats ( from his hand or from the game )
but i love watching his face when i cast a Game 1 CoP: Red and it is always game!!! and sligh is a great percentage of every field...

Zorb has a good chance to give you many satisfaction if Combo decks are a great part of the Field... especially i'm talking about Trix. I always face one or two GOOD Trix decks at every tournament and sometimes i feel i'm missing something foundamental: Zuran Orb. It force opponent to Donate more Illusions to you and prevent him from playing degenerate game and let you to win more easily.

@Zherbus: why you don't see Null Rod in real life tournaments?   If the metagame is Control or COmbo Dominated, as mine, all the aggro players packed full sets of NonBasics and Artifact Hates.  
In this situation Zorb is ineffective because of your inability to Sacrifice lands whenever you want and in this case Renewed Faith is the card to play too

So... if we talk about real life tournaments, my choice is to drop the life gaining aspect of the deck.The CoP:Red wins all games 1i played  against Sligh and i can do the trick with alter reality to shut up Suicide black or Mono colored aggro decks quite often.

If we want a deck for an illusory, well balanced or unknown metagame i prefer not cutting this aspect.
The possibility to cicle Renewed Faith not losing a card in a matchup when it is unuseful and his RIGHT color ( white!!! it is not affected by almost all the answers of aggro decks to my own lifegaining ) seems enough for me to assure it a slot in my ( ops.. Az's one... ) deck.

------------
Maxx Matt
------------

[Rakso]

Quote How on earth is this supposed to be condusive or helpful, or opened minded at all?

How is this supposed to help in further sharing of new ideas?

It keeps one's circulation up?   Lighten up.

About Zuran Orb and Trix, well, any life gain spell will force him to combo you twice anyway, it doesn't help against anything else, and that's a very desperate side effect to cite.

[Zherbus]

Quote @Zherbus: why you don't see Null Rod in real life tournaments?   If the metagame is Control or COmbo Dominated, as mine, all the aggro players packed full sets of NonBasics and Artifact Hates.  

Non-basic hate, yes. Artifact hate, sure. Null Rod is generally only used in decks that usually lose to TnT. Go figure.

It's not that its not there, its that its not quite THE metagame choice since it gets it in the ol' poopchute with no lube from TnT. Personally, I'd rather have my nut hair pulled out, one by one than face TnT and Sligh all day if I was a Suicide player.

Quote @Zherbus: Cycling is your daddy. Ankh Sligh isn't so bad IMO if you run Kegs and Gorilla Shaman. It's annoying, but no more than other Sligh versions that don't suck.

Yeah, Cycling is what gave me a stiffy about the card yesturday. Unfortunately, Im sure the hookers in Vietnam with razorblades in their vaginas did the same for the U.S. Troops. I'll definetly do some solid testing and hope that I'm really the number 1 G.I. and Cycling will love me long time.