Paragon Keeper

[Azhrei]

Impulse S U C K S. Brainstorm is much better. This is why:

Brainstorm digs, lets you dump cards from your hand, protect cards from your hand, and costs U. The drawback is if you have no shuffler, you have to redraw the junk-- but your hand is two cards better than before so you can usually afford to wait now.

Impulse is good in redundant decks that look for specific 3-4 of cards. Impulsing in Keeper and seeing "Ancestral, Mana Drain, YawgWill, FoW" is TERRIBLE, and happens fairly often. It is better as a digging spell, but not as a draw spell. Keeper wants to draw and protect, not dig.

[Freddie]

Sending important spells to the bottom of the deck is not as concernng now woth shuffel effects.

Impulse (along side of the fetch, and other shuffel effects) allow Impulse to function much the same way it did pre eratta, as an instant speed blue mini tutor.

-Freddie\n\n

[PsychoCid]

Freddie:  However, there are still times when you really want more than one of the cards you just saw now, rather than waiting to shuffle to attempt finding them again.  Impulse's one benefit alone won't make up for Brainstorm's half-casting cost and ability to protect from discard.\n\n

[routedashf]

After playing Keeper for six rounds yesterday, I've got a better feel for the deck.  I played Paragon Keeper with a couple minor changes.  Here's my thoughts on the card choices:

Brainstorm - A-MAZE-ING.  It was like Ancestral every time I cast it.  Except I could get junk out of my hand, like extra land, swords I didn't need (against say, Morphling or pro-White critters).

Polluted Delta - Another amazing card.  I knew it would be though, based on my experience with fetchlands in Type 2.  They are even more broken with Duallands.  

COP: Red - Hated it.  I never played against a red deck.  The only deck I played against with any red at all was another Keeper in the final round.  Blah.  Even when I drew the COP, I either already used my cunning wish for another answer, or never drew a wish to get the alter reality.  I brainstormed this back into the library and shuffled with fetch/tutor most of the time.

Cunning Wish - It is as good as Azhrei says.  Think of it like this, you're now playing a deck with a theoretical 68-75 cards, but you choose 8-15 of those if you need them.  The contents of the sideboard of course make a difference in the numbers, but I think a minimum of 8 wish targets (counting 3-4 red blasts as 2) is good.  This strategy doesn't wreck the sideboard, because you can sideboard in the targets required in a matchup and side out the wishes.

My Vampiric Tutor over Merchant Scroll - Most of the time when I drew the Vampiric, I needed a specific answer, ironically.  Rarely did I use it to get an Ancestral, but instead I got Dust Bowl, Library, or Abyss.  I think Merchant Scroll is weak in comparison, despite being Blue.  With Vampiric, there's two tutors that get any card in the library.  

Dust Bowl over 3rd Wasteland - Again this was golden.  I played against a couple mono-color decks, but the bowl hit nonbasic lands all the same.  Thanks to Strip Mine, Yawg Will and Dust Bowl, one of my opponents playing monoblack (not sui) had 0 lands in play at the end of both games.

[FeverDog]

I have to chime in on the whole CoP: Red issue. I was skeptical about it to say the least, and after testing the deck vs Sligh, TNT and Mask, i have to say i didnt love it. While it IS better than a Zorb vs Sligh, it is weaker against other decks.

The problem with the whole Alter Reality combo is that i never really wanted to use a Wish just so my CoP wouldnt be a dead card, i usually prefered getting a Pulse or StP. Im not saying its bad, just that it doesnt work for me, so i am switching back to Zorb for the time being.

Also, im surprised to see no one sideboarding a Counterspell, i sometimes found myself holding a Wish, only to see my opponent drop a Morphling on me. I know this isnt a common thing, but im thinking one vanilla Counter might find its way into my sb.

[CrazyCarl]

Quote Also, im surprised to see no one sideboarding a Counterspell, i sometimes found myself holding a Wish, only to see my opponent drop a Morphling on me. I know this isnt a common thing, but im thinking one vanilla Counter might find its way into my sb.

Go for REB .  I'd be more concerned about something like Mind Twist or Yawgmoth's Will.  But those situations don't occur enough to warrent a Counterspell in the board IMO.

Carl

[PsychoCid]

The question you have to ask yourself about CoP:R is NOT whether it is too weak in GENERAL, but rather if ZOrb would have made a difference, there.  It doesn't look like either of you thought about it like that, given what you posted.

[Brislove]

I personally think that zorb is just better then cop red in the main deck however if i wasn't running one main i would run the cop red in the SB

you have reb blast for morphling and i personally like having a misD for it's goodness. however my Sb has always been a little bit short of room to run a counterspell. yawg will is the only thing that you can't wish a counter for in the mirror (well that really matters).

[FeverDog]

@Carl-
I tend to side in my REBs vs control, and still leave at least 1 Wish in just in case, which is what i was referring to. Sorry about being unclear. I never said that i boarded a Counter, just that i thought it might be worth a look.

[Brislove]

if you bring in all the REB and keep one wish in you might as well take that wish out or only bring in 3 REB and keep 2 wishes main. i personally like to take out both wishes and bring in REB and AR for there REB in the mirror or vs Urphid.

a counter in the SB is still a solid choice if you like it use it . there are definetly worse choices.

i still would always play Zorb over CoP:Red. well the cop IS better vs sligh it's pretty much over kill since zorb will gain you enough to stay alive. excepting a mox monkey (those guys are soo good)

It's solid if you see alot of sligh but it's a heavy metagame call. other then that it will stay in my SB or my box.

[Azhrei]

Well, where is Zorb really good? Against Sligh. Everywhere else, it's generally marginal. I'd rather REALLY beat Sligh and have a slightly tougher time against other decks. PoP Sligh is and probably always will be my most feared matchup, so screw losing to it.\n\n

[Brislove]

good point i still would call it a metagame choice but if you do really fear PoP sligh (with good reason), and you see it often then run the best anti-sligh card in print why not . With the alter reality it's not absolutly dead. it's sorta like story circle except better.

In my area there isn't really any sligh and there aren't enough non basic's for sligh to main deck PoP anyway so the SB Cop: red is fine here. it's still all about the metagame, however in a random metagame i would highly consider giving it the slot.

[Milton]

Quote Well, where is Zorb really good? Against Sligh. Everywhere else, it's generally marginal. I'd rather REALLY beat Sligh and have a slightly tougher time against other decks. PoP Sligh is and probably always will be my most feared matchup, so screw losing to it.

Where else is Zorb really good?  How about against mono-black.  Sack in response to Sinkhole, Wasteland.  

Or Zoo.  Ever face an army of River Boas, Kird Apes and Blurred Mongooses?  Sometimes late game you have to sack your Islands and duals so you can block the River Boa with a Gorilla Shaman.  Sometimes you need one extra turn for Morphling to swing, and you can't buy that turn without a Zorb.  Sometimes you want to Balance and sack lands to really screw your opponent.

A maindeck COP Red is always a metagame call.  Cunning Wish - Alter Reality - COP Whatever is never as good as a simple Story Circle, which is a much better call for a general field (but still not as good as Zorb).  

In a random metagame Zorb is highly superior.  Hell, at the very least, with Wastelands everywhere if Zorb is in play it is very rarely dead, unlike COP Red maindeck.

[Azhrei]

I'll admit that it is a little metagamey, to coin a phrase. I have missed the Zuran Orb at times, but mostly because Sligh has take a brief hiatus locally-- it's either 1/3rd of the field or not at all. However, I have found that versus Suicide a couple life don't really mean a whole lot-- either I get ruined or I establish control and win with plenty of life on the board (by which I mean more than five  ).

@ Milton: Funny you should mention that. I actually built a deck very much like what you posted earlier for a friend who played it at a tournament this weekend. He did fairly well with it (it actually looks strikingly similar to Azhrei Sligh but with more green and better fetch cards), but lost to Keeper. It had three Blood Moons in the board even for additional hate. It's a solid deck and I like it very much (my friend may make it his new deck of choice in fact) but it wasn't any worse than normal Sligh, and marginally less stressful because there was no Price of Progress. In testing, it was a favorable matchup for Keeper simply because it has a higher curve than Sligh and no PoP, which more than made up for some uncouterable untargetables and some unblockables. All in all, I *like* the RG deck better than Sligh, but I don't think it's any nastier to Keeper overall. It DOES have a MUCH better game against Mask due to Naturalize, however-- Sligh just can't do a whole lot to Mask.

Wouldn't it be better to sac ONE land so as to not take any damage from a Boa and keep the Gorilla Shaman on the board... and all your other land?  \n\n

[spin13]

There is no point in keeping matchup-specific sideboard cards in your sideboard games 2 and 3 simply because you have/keep Cunning Wish in.  First things first, you remove dead cards from your deck to fit in sideboard cards.  Then, if you still need space, you cut Wishes.  However, its preferable to still always have one Wish in the deck if possible.  Imagine boarding out all creature removal and facing a Gorilla Shaman/Dwarven Miner/whatever at the wrong time.  With Wish, you've still got your full load of REBs in your deck, but you've also still got access to those Sword to Plowshares.

 -E

[FeverDog]

I think a lot of people have realized that Zuran Orb is past its time but some of us have a hard time playing Keeper without one. I have been wanting to ditch the Zorb for a while now but i just didnt feel confortable having zero life gain in the deck, but Rakso's latest article was a revelation to me(imagine that). In it, he suggests Renewed Faith or Dromar's Charm in place of the Orb, and while i dont particularly want either of those maindeck it did open my mind to new possibilities.

I have placed a copy of Renewed Faith in my sb and am currently testing two cards in that slot, Vampiric Tutor and another Cunning Wish. I have found that, versus Sligh, i would usually rather draw a tutor than a Zorb. Ironically enough, its the Vamp that has proved superior in that matchup, allowing me to fetch The Abyss more consistently. Although i thought Cunning Wish would be better, the problem is that none of the wishable sb cards are permanent answers to Sligh. I would prefer fetching The Abyss to a single StP or BEB even with the loss of 2 life. Of course, vs other decks like TNT, Gro, Mask and Keeper i like a 3rd Wish much more than a Vamp.

Obviously i will have to test more extensively to be certain, but as of right now i think the Wish will eventually take over that spot. For reference, here is my current sb:

1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Misdirection
1 Ebony Charm
1 Skeletal Scrying
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Shattering Pulse
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Allay
1 Renewed Faith
1 CoP: Red
1 Aura Fracture
1 Peacekeeper

[CrazyCarl]

I'd be interested in hearing who's still running Circle of Protection: Red in the MD still.  I still haven't tried it because it seems like a poor use of a slot.  I still like Zuran Orb not only because of the silly Balance plays you can pull, but because sometimes, you need to use it to give yourself time to topdeck something, whereas with COP:Red, you really can't do anything because your mana will be almost completely tied up between Wastelands and creatures(against sligh at least).  I may try out Renewed Faith, but I really don't think it'll be possible to find a SB slot for it, though it could go MD.  I also feel Dromar's Charm is waaaaaaay to slow(even if you can cast it, sorry Oscar), so I won't be running that.  I'll give the Faith a try in the Zuran Orb  slot sometime and see what happens.

Carl

[Rakso]

Actually, I'm surer about cutting ZOrb than I am about what to put in its place, so the article had four options outlined.

Anyway, using the (Dromar's) Charm as the placeholder, I just haven't wished it was Zuran Orb again. I played a number of games against Sligh and it countered or killed something and helped win the game at a low life total.

Oh, it IS slow if you compare it to Mana Drain, but faster than Zuran Orb. And you can pitch it in the early game.

I don't know what it'll end up as, but what I know now is that slot is better with Charm than Orb.

And about Balance/ZOrb plays, I really haven't been using them a lot. I don't know... count the number of decks where you have a good chance of having less mana.\n\n

[BigChuck]

Well, I think a better judgement would be, how many games has that slot made a difference? Don't count it being pitched. How often do you actually find the lifegain/creature kill/counter ability(whichever ability you use) to make a difference in the game?

[Rakso]

The lifegain doesn't count, though it did work a couple of times. On the other hand, I'd say being pitched counts a LOT; when have you been happy to see ZOrb opening hand?

In any case, I'd say it's made a lot of difference in a lot of matchups.

[ShadowLotus]

@ CrazyCarl:  I've finally decided to try maindecking a Circle of Protection: Red in the Zuran Orb slot myself, since I really love being able to sideboard Alter Reality, and making this change has allowed me to do that.  Finding the right cards to make the final cut in both the MD and SB has been tough, since there's not much space to work with, and many of the changes need to reflect the current metagame.

I've liked the changes thus far after the few playtest sessions I've put in recently.  However, I'm far from making a definite conclusion as to whether it's better or not.  In the games I've played, there wasn't a single instance where I wish I had drew Zuran Orb, rather than the Circle of Protection: Red.  It may just be me, but since green was cut and the manabase was totally revamped, I haven't seen the need for a MD lifegain card.  Actually, I even switched out a Pyroclasm in my SB for Renewed Faith, just b/c I like having the option of wishing for it.  Often times, the gain of (6) life is enough of a boost to get me out of the "danger zone" of my life total (5 life or less) if things get that bad against fast aggro, and it's nice not to have to sacrifice lands to Zuran Orb to do the same thing.  Plus, if I didn't need a Circle of Protection: Red, I would just Alter Reality it during Game 1 to whatever color was hitting me for the most damage; or I would just reshuffle it back into the deck, thanks to Brainstorm and all the shuffling effects.

Yes (as you were probably thinking), the times where it's a dead card do suck.  But how much better is Zuran Orb in those circumstances anyway, and does the Balance/Zuran Orb trick really help you take control of games more times than not?  However, like I said in November when I first began testing the Paragon Keeper changes, it's very much a metagame call.  I doubt all of us w/ have the same experience w/ the modifications, but it's definitely worth a try in case there are better options.

Once I'm satisfied w/ the testing of the Circle of Protection: Red in the MD, I'm going to try Renewed Faith in that slot.  Though, that'll definitely have to happen after these crazy holidays; and I'm fairly wary of using a slot solely for lifegain.  We'll have to see...

@ Rakso:  If the lifegain part of Dromar's Charm doesn't count, but the pitchable factor does, then why not just run a basic Counterspell in that slot?  Or another Cunning Wish/Brainstorm?  At the very least, they're easier to cast and they're pitchable to boot.  In addition, it seems that in the game examples that you've given from testing, that running something other than Dromar's Charm would've been either just as good, or better.

Thanks for hearing me out.

[Freddie]

-Happy to see Zorb, opening Hand?

Pearl, Saphire, Lotus, Jet, Solring, Balance, Ancestral.

Thats for sure 1 time

Another time would be along with another 0cc artifact and Acadmey.

-Freddie

[BigChuck]

Well, since I'm sure you've tested it, and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt about it being useful, I guess I'll give it a try.

My reason behind pitchability not counting was because it isn't an actual effect of the card. You could put any blue card there, and it would be pitchable just as much. Do you find yourself pitching it mostly? Or do you find yourself actually using it, in which case, which ability do you use? If all your doing is pitching it, I think it would be better off as, say, a brainstorm, which is more generally useful.

[Rakso]

Quote (ShadowLotus @ Dec. 24 2002,20:15)@ Rakso:  If the lifegain part of Dromar's Charm doesn't count, but the pitchable factor does, then why not just run a basic Counterspell in that slot?  Or another Cunning Wish/Brainstorm?  At the very least, they're easier to cast and they're pitchable to boot.  In addition, it seems that in the game examples that you've given from testing, that running something other than Dromar's Charm would've been either just as good, or better.

The other Cunning Wish or Brainstorm idea is another alternative, but I meant it doesn't count when you compare it to Zuran Orb.  But no, I don't just pitch it; it gets used a lot as a hard counter.\n\n

[FeverDog]

I really think the Zorb/CoP slot is better off being another Wish or Brainstorm. While these cards dont fill the exact same role, they make the deck even more consistent.

About Dromar's Charm, i think its better than it appears, and if it works for Rakso then theres no reason for him to change it. I prefer another Wish, but the charm fills much the same role, being either life gain/creature removal/counterspell depending on the situation. Also, even though its 3 colored mana, its still more mana-efficient than Wishing for something.

[Freddie]

It also has a "Vindicate like" effect, but better in nearly every way... really versitle, AND an instant!

It is starting to grow on me more and more, but with the addition of the wishes, does anyone worry, or calculate their mana curve for keeper?

Not that this would be a reason to esclude Zorb entirels, but replacing a 0cc with a 3 (colored) cc card, qill obviously effect the overall curve.

Even with 28 mana sources, we have all had those games were holding 3-4 cc spells with no mana excelleration= an unwinnible or difficult to win game.

-Freddie

[BigChuck]

Even though it might raise the average mana curve, it wouldn't make much of a difference. Most of the time, you just play it, and it sits there for a while, or you hold it in your hand, and play it later. Either way, I don't think you can count it towards your mana curve, unless you count moxen, which, I highly doubt you would.

[CrazyCarl]

What I think i'm going to do is put another Brainstorm in the Zuran Orb slot, then replace the Pyroclasm I have in my sideboard with a Renewed Faith(or MAYBE Dromar's Charm, but 6 mana for a counterspell/5 life is ALOT).  I've wanted to fit in another Brainstorm for a while, so maybe this is the right way to do it.

Carl

[ShadowLotus]

@ CrazyCarl:  I like that idea, and I'll probably give it a try next myself in the near future, since I've liked having the Renewed Faith in my Pyroclasm sideboard slot a lot.  Honestly, I don't think I'd ever want Dromar's Charm in my SB, since it's hard enough to find room for cards that have been proven successful in the current environment; that, and Misdirection would probably be a better choice anyway (and I don't run extras of those, either).  Plus, the only other slot I could think of using to necessitate that kind of change would be my lone Blue Elemental Blast, but I'm never removing it unless Blood Moon drops off the face of the planet, so it's either one or the other.  This also goes for my 2x Powder Keg, since I still ph34r Mask and Gro when piloted by good players.

The only card I thought I would miss in my SB after I made the changes was Circle of Protection: Black, but so far Brainstorm and the fetchlands have made those games much better to handle.  Running 3x Brainstorm in my MD would definitely tighten things up, and I doubt I'll be missing Zuran Orb anytime soon (especially against Suicide Black or Nether Void).  My guess is that the benefits of running an extra Brainstorm in the MD would more than out-way the loss of a marginal MD lifegain card like Zuran Orb.

@ FeverDog:  Cunning Wish might be decent at 3x, but I truly feel that its casting cost of 2U makes it too costly to run more than most of us already are - it would make the mana curve a bit harder to handle in most circumstances.  At the very least, Brainstorm allows the Keeper player to dig deeper into their deck to grab answers when low on land/mana (and usually it helps fix mana issues, so it's definitely a good choice).  In addition, there aren't many times where there are three cards in my SB that I would need to win a Game 1; 2x Cunning Wish seems to work out better overall.

All in all, I think we're moving in the right direction to make Keeper a much more consistent and versatile deck to tackle the newer aggro decks showing up on radar.  Keep up w/ the updates, everyone - it's been very worthwhile so far!

[TunaBoo]

If life gain mid game is so important. take the funny route and run ancestral tribute. W00t + 50 life.


Honestly, do you guys consider zorb a life gainer or a utility card? I consider it general purpose utility, not JUST life gain.