Paragon Keeper 2003 (Zherbus Remix)

[PsychoCid]

While Edict is not a horrid card to draw against Tog, it can be difficult to pull off.  The rest of the environment, since it is rather creature oriented at the moment, also indicates that Swords is the more useful removal spell of the pair.

Even if you do grab a 2 for 1, if there's a Tog on the table and you couldn't kill it in time, it means little.

For the environment as a whole, I'd rather drop the maindeck Edict slot (simple to do since it's still quite accessible through Wish) and keep the Draw/Search:Business Spell ratio the same.

A lot of people have mentioned that they thought Brainstorm was a less than stellar addition, but for many of us it has proven to be quite a lovely little package of tricks.  A lone Brainstorm would hardly be worth running, as it's not major power and so very rarely worth tutoring for or any such nonsense.

[Zherbus]

@Shade: ALOT of people recommended it...but at the wrong time of Vintages metagame. Refer to my quote below.

Quote In fairness, the reason I had previously written Future Sight off was because Misdirect effects weren't as en-vogue at the time rather than say Morphlings, Juggernauts, and Dreadnoughts.

It was something I tested before and decided on Geyser in that slot anyways because of what was dominating at the time. Now that Tog has reared its ugly head, changes are called for and I think this is one of the many that needed to be made.

@Rozetta: As I mentioned before, I still will have to figure out what I want to do with Vamp and Gush if anything.

Fire/Ice is still in because of the exact reasons you mention in addition to the fact that early on I can almost use this as a Time Walk if I don't need it.

Merchant Scroll fetches Cunning Wish, counterspells and card Draw. If it were only card draw and counterspells, I would still run it. Especially since FoF resolves an awful lot against Gro-a-Tog.

@Rico: Edict just had to go. I've only really needed it against the mirror which has been getting pretty rare anyways.

Cutting Brainstorm isn't as easy as it looks in my build. In addition to providing protection for my hand and card digging, it also helps effectively keep my Keeper at 58 (56 if you take time walk and fire/ice into account) cards which is good for the color ratio of my lands. In short, with no Brainstorms I am confident I would have to cut the islands to insure a steady flow of off color mana sources.

As for Twister, I have thought of it. I was the guy who wouldn't cut it from my sideboard for the longest time until I just faced the music and decided it only helped me against CooberP. Perhaps that should be re-examined here because you are right; you could totally give Gro-a-Tog a bum draw 7. However, from my experience playing Gro-a-Tog, I notice that no matter what you draw in the opening 7, the amount of deck thinning makes it so Gro-a-Tog rarely mulligans.

[LoA]

A few quick questions, Steve:

Why the 2nd City of Brass over a 5th fetchland?  There aren't too many Void decks running around (aside from your own) and the most recent versions of GAT, Hulk Smash, Mask, and TnT are running either no LD or less LD than previous versions.  Adding a Flooded Strand seems to smooth out minor color issues and brings up the basic Island that much faster.

How has Skeletal Scrying been treating you?  Aside from the combo matchup and the mirror (I can already side on 4x ReB and a Misdirection for this), I never seem to need it; I'm loathe to pay life vs. Tog or Mask as it is.  This is very close to going away in my sideboard unless some combo decks can get around a sea of Misdirections sometime soon.

[Zherbus]

LoA - I really fear too much land thinning and I like un-chokeable lands.

Skeletal Scrying has been solid gold. Against the mirror, Ophidian based decks, Hulk Smash, and most importantly Gro-A-Tog it has been great for drawing a quick 3-4 cards. Against Masknought, I wouldn't side it in. However, if I were to wish for it, it would be to get cards to keep Noughts off the table so that I can hang on to 12 of that life. I also dislike another Misdirection in the board because you almost never win pitch-war counterspells against decks with stronger draw engines.

[Dozer]

Quote (Mon, Goblin Chief @ Mar. 08 2003,18:58)I tested Future Sight, too, after it came out and I didn't like it in a normal version of Keeper. I did test it in a different spot, but I feel for Future Sight to be good you have to build your deck around it more. If you do, you get a kind of combo-control deck, not true control any more. Therefor I did cut it again. If I ever drop GrimPower (nobody start an argument about that, thanks), I MIGHT test it again over Braingeyser, but I feel FS is not worth it in "usual" Keeper.

I think it is - I even cut the PA/Monolith combo for it, and I'm currently not going to switch back. I am still advocating the combo as an über-powerful way to win against aggro, but I feared Mis-D's too much, and I was in for a change anyway.
So I decided to swap it for a Maze of Ith and the one-card-combo that is Future Sight. Braingeyser has left my deck as well to make room for a fourth Wish, sitting in the sideboard alongside with Timetwister.

I must say that I love FS more and more. It "wins" almost as good as the PA-Combo did, albeit not on one turn. Its synergy with the fetchlands is great, Vampiric and Mystical get a huge boost, and sometimes it is just insane. Sometimes you can play a whole turn only from the top of your library, even without Brainstorms, keeping your hand full to protect what you play.

Playing a Twister with FS in play is also great, since FS helps to tilt the synergy towards your side. There is a certain element of Luck involved in playing with FS, but it is well worth it. To me, it has not been a "win more" card, but more often a necessary boost or even a last resort. It can pull you out of the pit all on its own, and that's good enough for me at the moment.

Dozer

[Milton]

A very serious question for you Steve.  Would you play Keeper at a large event, such as GenCon or one of the bigger tournaments that happened this weekend?  If so, why, if not, why not?

Do you think Keeper is strong enough to compete with the modern aggro-control metagame?  TnT?  GroTog?  If so, why, and if not, why not?  Also, how does this apply to your answer to the question as to weather or not you would play this deck is a wide-open metagame.

Thanks.

[Zherbus]

Milton, had you asked before Tog decks were trendy, I absolutely would have played it at the TMD Invitational or Gencon. Last summer, I would not have. Right before Gro-a-Tog got big, Type 1 was at its most diverse. Everything had its 'bane' so to speak and Keeper had a good shot against everything. A year ago, Keeper just happened to be the most gunned for.

Right now, despite my changes, I am not totally convinced that Keeper has quite adjusted enough to face Gro-a-Tog yet. I can beat it pretty regularly in sideboarded games, but with the popularity of this deck, I am not confident I could wade through 3-4 of these with success. TnT is really not that big of a problem, really. I have a great record against it and ultimately why I created Legion was because TnT could lose only to Keeper (and combo) at that time with any sort of regularity.

Gro-a-Tog/Hulk Smash are really too hard and too popular to make Keeper or ANYTHING ELSE attractive to play until we have found a sufficient answer to those decks. This can be from a Keeper change, another deck, or a DCI action that will ultimately make Tog less attractive to play. Keeper can still be the old 'best deck by virtue of being able to handle all of its matchups' theory.

TnT was kept in check by Keeper and combo, while Tog is just doing well against everything and everyone plays it for that reason. Nothing about playing Tog right now is unattractive.

So basically, what I am trying to say is that there is nothing wrong with Keeper other than that a matchup *I* am uncomfortable playing 3-4 matches of has no deterant. Until the metagame finds its kryptonite for Tog, as a Keeper player I expect to see my fair share of mister teeth.

Did I answer what you wanted me to?

[rozetta]

Our group did some playtesting last night with keeper - groatog. We played probably around 15 games, a majority of them unsideboarded. I'd estimate (since I didn't keep specific notes) that Keeper only won about 4 of the games.

While playing and watching, I noticed the following:

- constant strips/wastelands against tog were generally good to give keeper time to set up
- even with 2 swords in keeper, we didn't see/resolve them enough
- keeper's abyss never once resolved
- keeper cannot rely on the early game ancestral plan
- balance was not always great

These observations are in addition to the general observations which have probably been mentioned enough (e.g. tog goes off and wins from out of nowhere with fastbond or will).

Another thing to note is that none of us had ever played groatog before, and so probably weren't playing it all that well.

The sort of thing we should probably be focussing on now is seriously how to improve this matchup without weakening Keeper dramatically versus combo and control. Like Zherbus said, he doesn't see Keeper being a good choice currently because of it's game 1 versus the tog decks. Even from the small amount of testing we did sideboarded, game 2 isn't nearly good enough, IMO, to be able to just write game 1 off in every match. For us to do that, games 2 and 3 should be auto-wins, but that's not possible while tog has the ability to randomly just go off.

Off the top of my head, possibilities might be:
- try to squeeze in that 4th wasteland
- consider maze of ith (I've heard noises about it being tried)
- find some other new piece of technology (dwarven blast miner?)

Suggestions...?

[Nimrod]

Heh, how interesting, I havent touched my keeper deck since october/november (before I started planning my tournament), and now I see almost everyone taking the path I was taking back then, I wonder if I will see Moat back in the maindeck anytime soon in Paragon Keeper, as its usually better than abyss agaisnt the most popular current aggro decks (mask, TnT, specially legion versions, and tog).

I have been advocating for Future Sight in keeper for months, and I only used to get laughed at, but if what it takes for the card to get some respect is to have Zherbus and CrazyCarl play it, its alright then, as I said in an earlier post discussing that card, I havent ever lost when I have it out, no matter how grim the situation looked.

Also, given the addition of Future Sight and Moat to my maindeck, I added a third City of Brass to the maindeck, pondering about the other options, I havent done much testing since arounc october/november so I dont know if its the correct decition, but so far, so good.

I also cutted the fire/ice for the third StoP back then, as I was seeing much more Mask than Sligh or anything.

The last thing I wanted to toy with was spiritual focus in the sideboard but never got to actually test it. Using a lone island has been working good enough for me aswell.

Flames or thoughts?

[Dozer]

Quote (rozetta @ Mar. 13 2003,23:12)- keeper's abyss never once resolved

@ Nimrod: The above quote states it clearly. The 4cc-Enchantments are too slow and too clumsy to compete against Gro-A-Tog. Granted, they still win games against other Aggro-Decks, but neither TnT nor Tog are going to be stopped by either Moat or Abyss. For the time being, I feel they are obsolete and better replaced by Swords. Maze of Ith in its place is surely a call from the GAT-Hype, but as long as 'Tog dominates the brains and decks of people as it does now, it should be ok.
Applying the logic of Monm Goblin Chief here: If you sideboarded against aggro, you did not bring extra Abysses, did you? You sideboarded extra Swords. Now cut out the middleman, and you have more MD Swords and no Abyss. Of course this means straying even further from the "silver bullet" playstyle, but that is not necessarily a bad thing.

Also, I don't think 3 Cities are necessary. 3+ fetchlands should be getting you WW for Moat or UUU for Future Sight without any trouble. The loss of life is IMO too hard to offset otherwise in case you don't run MD lifegain.
Bringing in the 3rd StoP ist IMO the correct decision, although of course it massively depends on your metagame.
Spritual Focus is not good enough to make any cut. The only thing it does is to completely negate Hyppies and Hymns, but it's not worth the slot when you can board an extra Misdirection and have CoP: Black if necessary, which will also keep Hyppies at bay as well as any other threat.

@ rozetta: Dwarven Blastminer, heh? I'm doing fine with Dust Bowl, but if anyone ever resolves an active Miner against Tog, they can go packing. Seems like a valid idea to me.

Dozer

[PsychoCid]

Since Nim has ignored the fact that it has been said before, perhaps I should point it out again:  The time was not yet right.  No matter the immediate power provided by a card, even if costs are similar to possible substitutes, you must take other factors into account.

Also, I've been playing with 2 StP/1 Fire/Ice main, and have yet to play a mirror match where I wasn't stuck with both Swords in hand for a significant amount of turns.  If I ran more such dead cards, I'd want to sideboard something like Manipulate Fate to Wish for in the mirror, but that would cut you off from Wishing (until you found the other one, anyway) for your available draw spell, etc.

However, Keeper is a versatile deck, and while metagaming is always appropriate when you know what you're doing, I don't think more likely-to-be-dead cards need to be in the maindeck at this point in time.

[Zherbus]

Just a quick question:

WHO still plays Moat and relies on it to kill TnT? Interestingly enough, I haven't used it in a few weeks and I am still killing TnT. Usually, just stunting the development of the deck turns it into bad Zoo.

I also swapped an Allay for a Disenchant (Matt D suggested it and since he kept bringing it up, I decided to go ahead and try it since I have a nice Alpha one sitting around), but while it works well enough against the more typical TnT's, it really screwed me playing against my own Legion where Enchantments jump around all over. Personally, I will carry the Allay around should I suspect anyone to be playing Legion, but other than that, its nice to draw a Disenchant over Allay when its the 5/3s staring you down and not Survival.

[spin13]

I would like to question the exact number of basic Islands worth playing.

I do not doubt that the Keeper manabase cannot suffer more than 2 basic Islands, but I have not found reasonable answers from my backround of general theory to decide that 1 basic Island is either not even an option or suboptimal.

One of the reasons this issue arises is the change in nonbasic hate and general mana denial strategies.  There are fewer and fewer decks that are running mana denial, with decks like Gro and Tog not running Strips and decks like Suicide seeming to disappear from certain metagames.  In addition to that, permanent based mana denial has shifted from Back to Basics, which fails to properly subdue the Gush-based decks influx, to Blood Moon.  With this in mind, it can be said that the cost of simply drawing a dual land instead of a basic Island is worth running as few basic lands as possible.  The arguements are thus:

1) If blue mana is the concern and the opponent has immediate access to a Wasteland they will have little problem of depriving you of one source regardless.  If you draw and play a dual land you will likely still have the same potential for blue mana as if it was an Island because the near entirety of the rest of your manabase is already blue-producing and nonbasic.  This essentially rules out blue mana production as an issue.  The only time this would come into play would be when multiple basics were in play.  This will be discussed later.  The issue then becomes the total number of mana in play.

2) If you need non-Blue colored mana and you draw a dual, you are obviously in a stronger position.  In the same circumstance of a Wasteland, the land may be held and not played until needed.

3) If you are in the position of needing both a permanent blue source and a color, and Island will still only fulfill one need.  The ability of the deck to draw blue in general is greater than the ability to draw a specific color.  Holding back on general mana developement has more negative effects than not being able to cast off-color spells.

The other issue to be discussed is not topdecking the Island or dual.  Because there are still only 4 fetchlands in the deck, it is only reasonable to expect to draw one in the early game (where any of this matters for the most part).  If you need an Island, you have a higher chance of fetching than you do in drawing it.  If you fetch one Island, you have an increasingly less chance of drawing into the other.  While obviously not statistically true, it might be possible to assume that once one Island is fetched, the second Island ceases to exist without further fetching.  This leaves a few notions:

1) There are significant nonbasic threats to warrant the fetching of multiple Islands.

2) There are significant threats to basic land to warrant the fetching of a second Island, because the first stands in danger of destruction.

3) Any threat to mana developement can successfully be handled with a single basic Island in play.

Because of the low number of Strip Mines (by default) and Sinkholes in the general metagame, number 2 is out of the question.  This leaves the debate which of the remaining choices outweighs the other.  This again asks whether the general developement of the manabase, is more important than access to certain colors.  Is operating poorly under mana denial constraints more necessary than the ability to replace your lost off-color resources?  Is it more important to merely remove a threat like Blood Moon and gain full access to your manabase or to function regardless of them?  If the former, are two Islands truly more efficient at handing such matters?

I am rather decided on the first issue; I would rather, in most situations, topdeck a dual land than a basic Island.  Stepping back from the problem, this seems only natural in a 4 color deck.  The second issue leaves the questions I pose to those who have more access to answering such things.

 -1170

[Zherbus]

In all honesty Eric, the second URPhidian stops showing up to tournaments is the day I drop to 1 Island. Other matchups can be dealt with off a lone Island as they have no counter backup to protect the Bloodmoon.

URPhidian, on the other hand, does what BBS does in that it slams down a bomb and will counter any feeble attempt at countering/destroying Bloodmoon and with 2 Island its not such a thoughtless game anymore. Barring a lucky turn 1 Bloodmoon, you can fetch the Islands and actually play a game with them instead of watching a crapload of Mountains do nothing until you've taken 20.

Also, I want to point out that with Undiscovered gone and City of Brass back in its place, B2B has one less obstacle to get around but with both Islands I can play around it decently. While BBS has almost all but dried up, Hulk Smash has taken its place in that it runs 3 sideboarded B2B which still hurt.

EDIT: As a side note, the next tournament I am attending, I expect little no URPhid, and I will be cutting one of my trademark Islands for a Brainstorm.

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Future Sight
1 Skeletal Scrying
3 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Morphling

1 The Abyss
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mind Twist
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Balance
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Zuran Orb

1 Fire/Ice

1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire

3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
2 City of Brass

Sideboard
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Ebony Charm
1 Shattering Pulse
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Disenchant
1 Aura Fracture
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Plaguebearer

[PucktheCat]

I like this most recent build, but do you worry about the lack of enchantment removal game one?

Edit: Misread, I thought Allay had been cut from the sb, but I now see it hasn't.

I think I understand why Gorilla Shaman has gotten the axe, but I was wondering if you could state your reasons anyway.

Leo

[Zherbus]

I haven't run maindeck Enchantment removal in months, and still feel *I* don't need it.

I cut Shaman because simply, its generally only mediocre for most of the matchups I use it in. I don't know how much better Keg will be, but I imagine worlds more helpful than Shaman has been.

[Cuandoman]

So you finally came around to the no monkey tech! Very cool. The number of mirrors you play is the key factor in the usefullness of the Shaman. With more Gro the keg should prove itself to you. I've liked it.

Are the Brainstorms enough to find all the blue mana you need? Is the 3rd Brainstorm better than the 28th mana source?

[Zherbus]

Sure, that bit of thinning, combined with Time Walk and potentially Fire/Ice makes the deck around 56/55 cards. 27 Mana should suffice.

[ShadowLotus]

Quote (Zherbus @ Mar. 25 2003,14:13)Sure, that bit of thinning, combined with Time Walk and potentially Fire/Ice makes the deck around 56/55 cards. 27 Mana should suffice.

I approve. =)

In all seriousness, the third Brainstorm has been much better to me than the second Island (yes, even though Islands *are* tech), since it keeps the card quality in my hand extremely high, and so far I haven't had any problems with the manabase thus far.  Originally, I had 28 mana sources, as I had replaced an Island with another Tundra (since, as Keeper players all know, StPs are da shit), but I didn't notice much of an improvement (after all, it's been a long time since I've been color-screwed playing Keeper - probably since the pre-fetchlands, 5c days).  Plus, I don't know if it's just me, the way my deck is constructed, or my playstyle, but I never get manascrewed and will more often be manaflooded in some rare circumstances.  Dropping a mana source and replacing it with a Brainstorm has improved the deck considerably in the consistency department, and has been a change I've been wanting to make for a long time.

Also, I dropped Gorilla Shaman from my deck, as well.  Why?  I *always* did one of two things with it when I maindecked it:  either I shuffled it away with Brainstorm (unless it was a mirror match, but those have just about dried up, so that's not a good reason nowadays); or, I sideboarded it out Games 2 & 3 to bring better answers, which were usually Powder Keg(s) or other forms of creature/artifact control.  That decision was pretty easy to make with the advent of GAT and Hulk.

As for maindeck enchantment removal, it's still unnecessary.  If you're one who believes that Cunning Wish is too slow to get the job done, then you're playing the deck wrong.  A few weeks ago I swapped out Allay for a basic Disenchant, and it's been getting the job done even better.  Granted, I don't see much TnT w/ black (since only I was the one testing the deck in my area), so I'm not sure how much of a difference losing Allay would be; but so far I'm confident in this configuration.  Plus, it's not like I'm going to be fearing Parfait or Enchantress anytime soon. ;p

Well, I've done even more testing of Future Sight in the Braingeyser slot against the newer aggro-control decks, and it's sick... just sick.  That card will not be cut from my deck anytime soon - it's that nuts.  Also, I've heard some players comparing it to Library of Alexandria, since they seem to think it only provides a *single* card per turn when it resolves - I can assure those players it's far better than that.  The card advantage from it is insane, and anything that makes those damn Misdirection.dec's cry makes me happy. )

Speaking of non-misdirectable cards, maindecking Skeletal Scrying over Stroke of Genius makes a lot of sense to me.  At first, I was unsure whether this was a good idea, due to the fact I didn't like losing too much life against nasty aggro and aggro-control decks... BUT, I'm going to try it anyway.  The reasons I am are because, quite frankly, Stroke of Genius is slow as ballz, and I pitch that card (or shuffle it away with badass Brainstorm) so much that it hasn't been pulling its weight lately.  Once again, anything that gets around Misdirection works for me, and it's always great to use cards in my graveyard that can't be used with Yawgmoth's Will.  It makes much better usage out of all the Keeper's players resources, so it's an excellent choice for the slot.  Also, I'm going to go ahead and sideboard another, just to make Cunning Wish that much better and never dead when drawn.

This also brings me to another point, which is the lifegain slot.  Yes, I've been running Renewed Faith for a while now.  Yes, it kicks ass.  Yes, I cycle it a ton.  No, it's not good with Skeletal Scrying maindecked. )  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know... Zuran Orb is going back in.  I'm pretty certain about this decision, unless someone can convince me otherwise that there's still a chance to use my foil Renewed Faith that I've loved.  Any takers?  Blah, I hate when Steve is right (haha, j/k!). ;p

In addition, I've been sideboarding Vampiric Tutor just for the GAT and Hulk match-ups to grap either Library of Alexandria or Future Sight.  As much as I hate being forced to run it, it's been doing its job, and I'm going to keep it unless a better change comes up.

OK, one last point I want to make.  Lately, I've been maindecking a lone Gush in the Fire/Ice slot, and it's been great.  My reasoning?  Well, it's blue (duh!); it saves my sacred duals from Strips, Sinkholes, etc.; it draws an extra card compared to the "Ice" in Fire/Ice; it's wonderful with Future Sight in play and I'm tapped out; and it's non-misdirectable (yes, I love it!).  Especially since I've dropped a mana source, this has been a very positive change.  I don't by the argument that it's a loss of tempo and messes up Keeper way too much and is a big risk, since it hasn't slowed me down at all when I've been running it in playtests.  It originally was in my sideboard, but I used to bring it in so often that I thought it deserved some testing in a maindeck slot.  So far, so good.  I understand that some are as hardcore about Fire/Ice as I was about Renewed Faith, so it's definitely a choice dependant on playstyle and metagame.  For myself, Gush has been edging out Fire/Ice in testing, but the jury is still out on it.

Well, that's about it for now from me ("thank God," you must be thinking).  Any thoughts?

[LoA]

Steve, how are you siding vs. standard GAT builds?  It seems you've got a ton of decent cards in the SB, but only a few cards from the maindeck look like clear choices.

Running so many life-draining effects and only 1 CoP:Red and 1 Powder Keg (even with the ZOrb and Fire/Ice) looks tricky for the LAS/Red Stompy matchups, even though these are very different decks to play against.  Is this a metagame call or testimony to your faith in the deck?

I know you like the second City of Brass, but with the additional Brainstorm and dropping to 1 Island, I'll make my case for a 5th fetchland again.  I'm still tweaking my sideboard trying to find room for Gush or some other effect to soften LD effects with the extra thinning, but if that can be resolved, it may be worth considering.

[Zherbus]

Andrew, the 5th Fetchland might just work out. I just am really wary of making my deck too thinned out and sometimes just hate drawing too many fetchlands.

As for alot of life draining effects, I assume you refer to the Scrying over Stroke. Here is how I look at it: Stroke will be cast later in the game because of its casting cost, where you have already taken more damage anyways. With Ankh Sligh making it punishing to play lands, having something that can draw 2 quickly and not be REB'd seemed just as good if not better than something that is quit slower.

Red Stompy? I just don't see that as a contender like Ankh Sligh, TnT, and Tog. You see some of the same people in the New England metagame that I do and you'll probably agree that Red Stompy is pretty rare.

Here is how I am siding against Gro-a-Tog right now:

-2 Wish
-1 Fire/Ice
-1 Zuran Orb
-1 Mind Twist

+1 Swords
+4 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Scrying

This will probably change once I figure out what I want to do here. The Keg slot hasn't been too magical, but honestly all the testing I've been getting in is TnT and Gro-a-Tog lately. Noone is coming around with Sligh, so based on that Keg could be more impressive. I added the Vampiric and have loved it as a Wish target. Also, adding a Gush to the board and a third wish where the Keg is now could really help me do the turbo-LoA thing against Gro-a-Tog, but somehow I just see that as asking Ankh Sligh to give me a savage ass fucking.

[Fever]

Steve, if you are going to cut the Keg for anything, i would suggest the 4th Brainstorm over the 3rd Wish. Now, you know i like having both of those if possible, but i think the last Brainstorm makes running 27 mana feel much safer, although the 3rd Wish is also very tempting. I understand not wanting to draw into multiple Brainstorms, but i rather be assured of drawing one sometime in the early game, where it really counts.

Also, no, im not trying to get you to play my build  

[Mith]

Has anyone had good results with Gush in the board? The SB is so short on room as it is.

[ShadowLotus]

Quote (Mith @ Mar. 31 2003,01:43)Has anyone had good results with Gush in the board? The SB is so short on room as it is.

I had excellent results with Gush in the sideboard, even to the point where I maindecked it to go into turbo-LoA mode against GAT and Hulk, and I found it performed well.

However, like you said, Keeper is an extremely tight deck, so I cut Gush entirely, and I've been testing a fourth Brainstorm/Vampiric Tutor in the unused slot.  The testing is still on-going, so I haven't reached any definite conclusions about it... yet. ;p

Anyway, I was going to try to fit Gush back into my sideboard, since it was gold when I was running it, but there's nothing I would cut to make the change as of today.  This is most-likely due to the fact that I cut Allay (it's been sucking lately during Games 2 & 3 against TnT), so I'm back to 2x Disenchants in the board to make up for it - they've been excellent, even if they take up an extra slot.

Lately, I've been working towards getting the maindeck list extremely consistent, so unless I feel I need the Gush back (in either the maindeck or sideboard) and can find adequate room for such a decision, then it's going to have to sit out for the time being.  I'll keep you updated, though.  Hopefully that answered your question. )

[Zherbus]

Quote Steve, if you are going to cut the Keg for anything, i would suggest the 4th Brainstorm over the 3rd Wish. Now, you know i like having both of those if possible, but i think the last Brainstorm makes running 27 mana feel much safer, although the 3rd Wish is also very tempting. I understand not wanting to draw into multiple Brainstorms, but i rather be assured of drawing one sometime in the early game, where it really counts.

Also, no, im not trying to get you to play my build  

I'm liking the third wish alot more than I thought I would. Basically, I wanted that slot to be another solution and with the Wish (not to mention the sideboarded Vamp that I am finally coming around to and some other Paragons have been using for a while now) I get that. Also 27 Mana has been good, actually unnoticable with the Brainstorms.

Quote Has anyone had good results with Gush in the board? The SB is so short on room as it is.

That is my thoughts as well. Gush is really neat and all, but there just isn't any room in my board. Perhaps if I ran into more mono-black.

[Crawley]

Quote Here is how I am siding against Gro-a-Tog right now:

-2 Wish
-1 Fire/Ice
-1 Zuran Orb
-1 Mind Twist

+1 Swords
+4 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Scrying

You're exchanging six sideboard cards for five maindeck cards, is this an oversight or are you still fooling around with what you want that last card to be? I thought you'd bring Plaguebearer in to deal with the Dryads as well.

Also, if you cut the Keg for another Wish will you try to move it to the board? Do you see Sligh becoming more of a problem if you cut Keg all together? And finally, do you think going up to four Wastelands would be something to consider?

23 more days and I'll finally be home from school so I can start testing these things myself. Yay.

Thanks.

[Zherbus]

That was an obvious oversight.

I take Merchant Scroll out as well and here is why: The only thing generally worth tutoring for with it is Ancestral, a Counter, or a FoF since Cunning Wishes have been removed. Also note that you rarely want to tutor for an Ancestral and let your Misdirection toting opponent know it's coming. That leaves Counters and FoF.

Plaguebearer is really iffy because ALL it takes care of is Dryads. Considering the mana needed to make bearer work, it is generally too slow and existing Dryads will have already made you hurt. I like them when I can resolve it before a Dryad because then they wont cast them until they wish for Smother, but I'm just not sold on him right now as a solution to Gro-a-Tog. If I were to side him it, it might be for the Abyss.

If Sligh ever became a problem, I would go back to 2 Kegs in the board. 4 Wastelands would be a metagame call, but I don't possibly see how I could do that without ruining the color balance in my deck.

[Mith]

How good has Vamp Tutor been in the board? I struggle for room with this deck as it is...is running another tutor worth the space? With all the sui running around lately, I've been running a COP: Black in that spot.

[Zherbus]

It mainly really good to either get Future Sight or to use WITH Future Sight. It's good to grab LoA and Zorb. Other than that, it is just another way to turn the 3 Wishes into a real tutor.

[Mith]

I've been testing out with three wishes...the results have been promising so far. I tried out keg maindeck, and hated it. I haven't missed the gorilla shaman yet, thought I suspect that I will should I start running into more Mask and Keeper. I just have a few questions for everyone:

1. Is four swords (two main, two SB) overkill? I'm running three at the moment, but I've been running into to just about all GAT and TNT...a 4th might be nice to have.

2. Is four brainstorms really worth it? I've been working just fine with three, and while I do have that 3rd wish spot to potentially add the 4th brainstorm, I don't think that's necessarily the best use of that spot.

3. Has everyone given up on Moat?

4. Would a second misdirection maindeck be a bad idea?

For the moment, I'm going to keep that 3rd wish spot flexible...I think that just about anything could fit in there nicely. I really like being able to burn a wish for a scrying or vamp tutor and still have two in reserve.