Paragon Keeper 2003 (Zherbus Remix)

[rozetta]

@Mith: my opinions on your questions:

1) I find that I need to have 2 swords in the sideboard because of my sideboarding strategy. Basically, I like to bring a 3rd swords in for game 2, but also keep a couple of wishes in maindeck to add redundancy to getting that 4th one, and have other answers available (for instance, in a pinch, also edict versus GAT). This strategy is more important against other aggro like TnT than GAT, though, since the answers needed tend to be a bit more diverse (e.g. allay/pulse/charm).

2) I'm still not sure about 3 or 4 brainstorms. I'm generally happy to see them, and 4 makes the 27 mana plan a little less risky. Plus they're mad good with FS or off Will.

3) I think currently the drawbacks are scary: WW in the casting cost plus it being 4 mana makes it a little slow and almost guaranteed to not resolve versus GAT. Plus they can park their creatures behind it until they get their wish->naturalize. The slot is probably better as swords, since you can EOT fight over a swords on their creature and then untap and stick it in them.

4) Mikey P had two Misdirections in his build in Venice. However, I'm seeing a lot of decks going away from misdirectable spells. I actually am currently testing running one in side only, to wish for, since I've found it often a dead card and would rather have an answer. In testing, this configuration has been reasonable for the most part.

I certainly think 3 wishes are better than 2. Smmenen posted a build with 4 wishes in January: Smmenen's Keeper. This one had no Misdirections either, but it did include both Braingeyser and Stroke of Genius (maybe not so good now), and interestingly no maindeck Abyss (possibly risky).

[Zherbus]

1) If the Vamp doesn't work, that is exactly what I will be doing.

2) I stay away from 4 because I don't think the 4th is needed.

3) Well, against Gro-a-Tog if Abyss is too slow, then Moat is WAY too slow. Against TnT it would be fine given that more and more TnT is running without Wonder, however I would rather have the Abyss against more decks.

4) When I had the sided Misdirection, I never wished for it. When you draw Misdirection against TnT you hope for a Brainstorm, and Gro-a-Tog doesn't have much (other than counterspells and Ancestral) that can be Misdirected. I would much rather have spot removal.

[Smmenen]

Quote (Mith @ April 07 2003,00:11)I've been testing out with three wishes...the results have been promising so far.

My Keeper has 4 Wishes and I Love it.  You have to change your conception of what the Wish does in order to play it.  If you understand the Wish as merely a tutor to fetch a utilty card than your first response will be to say that 4 Wishes is too many and you would be right.  But if you view the Wish as an impulse for a Swords to Plowshare or a Red Elemental Blast with the possibility of a Stroke or something like that than you'll like it as much as me.  I have 4 swords between the maindeck and SB and I love that too.

Steve Menendian

[PucktheCat]

Quote But if you view the Wish as an impulse for a Swords to Plowshare or a Red Elemental Blast with the possibility of a Stroke or something like that than you'll like it as much as me.

I think this point of view on Cunning Wish is just wrong.  One of the key reasons impulse was so universal in Blue Control during its heyday was the fact that it could get a land early.  Cunning Wish can't get a land and it can't get anything early, because it costs three.

This isn't to say that four might not be the right number.  I have been testing three recently and really liked it, so four is certainly a possibility, but I don't think impulse is the card to compare it to at all.

Leo

[Smmenen]

That's fine; you are entitled to your opinion but try this: make sure you have 4 REBs in your SB and access to four STPs and then add the fourth wish - play about a dozen games against non-sligh decks and tell me you don't change your view.

Steve

[MisterShark]

Regarding the removal of Fire/Ice:  I have moved my lone Fire/Ice to the sideboard, as I have just added a second Cunning Wish and needed the slot for it.  Next point of contention is: in what situation would I Wish for the Fire/Ice (ie: is it worth keeping in the sideboard)?
Like most, I face GaT, TnT, Mask, GayFish, and a bit of old-school Sligh/ Goblin.  Also on the horizon in my meta: 2 new Keeper players.
vs. TnT: sure, the Fire aspect would take out a Welder and something else, but I can't see Fire being worthwhile unless my opponent has either Welder x2 on the board, or Welder and Elvish Lyrist (I still play Moat).  I think we can agree that to see either of these combinations of threats on the board at one time may not happen that often, if ever.  And as far as the Lyrist goes, if Anger is already in the grave, then it's too late to prevent her Disenchanting sacrifice anyway.  Does Ice do anything against this opponent to make it worth Wishing for?  Conclusion: I'd rather StP the Welder, etc.
vs. GaT:  I can't see any reason that I would Wish for Fire/Ice against this opponent.  So no use to keep the card in the board for this menace.
vs. Mask:  Can't see any use for Fire/Ice here against Dreadnought.  Popping 2 Fire points of Damage might be nice against an early Negator or an incoming Hippie, but thats still conditional.  Ice could tap out a threatening Dreadnought, but still keep you only a turn away from his next attack; maybe you'll find an answer in that one turn/ maybe not. Weak calling for the card to be ready in the board for this match-up, at best.
vs. GayFish:  Don't need to explain how tasty fried fish can be at the receiving end of Fire.  This match-up is the strongest case I can make for Fire so far, but a strong one to be sure.
vs. Sligh: Great against Pups, Goblins, and Gorilla Shamans.  One of my buddies actually still plays Ball Lightnings, so another good application here.  Fire/Ice earns it's keep in the board for this one.
vs. mirror: Not sure what I'd use Fire/Ice for here as I have yet to play this mirror match.  Thinking of the cards in my Keeper and what I'd use Fire/Ice against myself: couldn't really think of a practical application here.  On the mirror, I'm a bit lost for an actual experience-based answer, as I am 'the' Keeper player up till now in my meta.  

So, what I'm trying to determine here is whether or not to keep the Fire/Ice for the sideboard or lose it altogether.  I was also considering moving my Mind Twist or Stroke of Genius to the board, bringing it out in the second duel when I can be sure I'm not playing against an opponent packing Misdirections.  One additional concern here though, is the shrinking amount of 'X' spells with which to dump Mana Drained-colorless mana into.  
Of course, if the Mind Twist or Stroke is boarded, then I can keep Fire/Ice maindecked.
I was thinking about whether or not I should post this reply since I am asking about my personal Keeper build, but I think the issue of fitting in extra Wishes and what to board/ dump is relevant to all of us in this time of modification.

So please give your thoughts on:
-sideboard Fire/Ice or dump it altogether
-sideboard Mind Twist or Stroke for Misdirection safety  reasons and fit Fire/Ice back into it's slot in the maindeck.

As always, please draw my attention to anything that I may be missing if I have come up a bit short-sighted with the Fire/Ice usefulness.  Thanks in advance for everyone's insights/ opinions, and I hope that I have added something useful to the thread's content

[MethodXL]

Hey Zherbus, Whats up?

I have a couple questions about your matchups with TNT?
         Most of the creatures in TnT can't be targeted by the Abyss though StP removes creatures from the game which is good but the rest of the creature removal including the plaguebearer can't permanently deal with creatures?  How does it work out for you?
        
 Has tangle wire ever posed a significant threat against you?

[Zherbus]

When I still had Abyss in Keeper, I left it in since it meant that I could let more things resolve. I never brough Plaguebearer in because against fat creatures, he is ass.

Here is my current listing, which I am very much in love with. GaT and TnT primarily are things of the past as far as concerns for me, while Stax can still be played around and Hulk is becoming a red rash right around my anus.

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Counterspell
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Future Sight
1 Skeletal Scrying
3 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Morphling

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mind Twist
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Balance
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Zuran Orb

1 Fire/Ice

1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire

3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
2 City of Brass

Sideboard
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Ebony Charm
1 Shattering Pulse
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Disenchant
1 Aura Fracture
1 Circle of Protection: Red

-1 The Abyss
+1 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Misdirection
+1 Counterspell (May cut for another Future Sight)
-1 SB'd Plaguebearer
+1 SB'd Disenchant

The Abyss - So bad nowadays... it's just too slow against the decks it can affect. It may come back in the sideboard if it proves to be a mistake for cutting. Swords to Plowshares should be an sufficient replacement.

Misdirection - Yeah, it's just pretty bad lately. There just isn't much to redirect and it doesn't stop any bomb in the current Type 1 scene outside of Ancestral. If Keeper were more popular, Mind Twist might make it make a reappearance. Counterspell was a knee jerk reaction that has worked nicely, but I may just go with a second Future Sight or Skeletal Scrying.

Plaguebearer - Is cute, but I don't see Masknought or Gay Fish much. Sure you still see Sligh, but Disenchant is good there as well.

Possible considerations for the future:

4th Wasteland
4th Wish
4th Brainstorm

[Smmenen]

Aha.  Soon your keeper will look like the very metagamed one I posted a few months ago with no abyss, no misdirection, 4 brainstorms, and 4 Cunning Wish, and 5 Fetchland.   However, I strongly disagree with people cutting Mind Twist from Keeper.  

The reason I'm posting is to ask if you have tested against Rector Trix, and if so, a) how do you do versus it, and b) can you give us a little analysis of the matchup?

Also, could you analyze for a bit the Stax matchup.

Steve Menendian\n\n

[Mith]

um...Zherbus...I think your maindeck is only 59 cards.
Did you add a 3rd swords maindeck?

I guess misdirection really has been crap lately, but I still love having it in the board to wish for. It's been decent for me, even through I could use the damn space.

A vanilla counterspell? Interesting. I wonder is Dismantling Blow could make a comeback to the maindeck

[Fever]

@Zherbus

I told you so! Seriously though, i think you can see now why i was so intent on cutting Abyss a while back. I guess im just ahead of my time  

Note: I am aware that other players had cut Abyss even before i considered it, i am only being half-serious here.

[Zherbus]

Quote -1 The Abyss
+1 Swords to Plowshares

Yes, I added a STP, the edit just wasn't made for some reason. Also, if any disenchant effect were to make it back maindeck, I doubt it would be Dismantling Blow as it's too slow versus Stax.

Quote Aha.  Soon your keeper will look like the very metagamed one I posted a few months ago with no abyss, no misdirection, 4 brainstorms, and 4 Cunning Wish, and 5 Fetchland.   However, I strongly disagree with people cutting Mind Twist from Keeper.

Quote @Zherbus

I told you so! Seriously though, i think you can see now why i was so intent on cutting Abyss a while back. I guess im just ahead of my time  

1) It's all pre-emptive. I haven't exactly been losing because I am packing Abyss, moreso that I can see how it can bite me in the ass in a competent metagame.

2) Abyss has only been hitting 1-2 creatures when it works anyways.

3) I will bring Abyss with me everywhere and expect that at times it WILL be swapped maindeck for that STP or even Fire/Ice.

Quote The reason I'm posting is to ask if you have tested against Rector Trix, and if so, a) how do you do versus it, and b) can you give us a little analysis of the matchup?

I've honestly only played against it a few times. You can try to stop Rector from resolving or even just hitting the 'yard (stp), Mind Twist them, wish for a timely REB, etc.

Basically, that's all the things I have done against Rector Trix. I can see how the deck is potent, but I haven't been handed my ass yet. Up to 8 Duress can be very scary. If Rector Trix becomes too much of a problem for control, you better believe I'll be posting on it and you had better hope the DCI does something about it.

Quote Also, could you analyze for a bit the Stax matchup.

Sure, basically when I've played it, I worry about Welders and Smokestacks mainly. The Wires are just a temporary pain in the ass. Also, I've been Waste'ing Workshops and Academys aggressively. The biggest pain in the ass, for me, is the Spheres. Otherwise, I just build to the appropriate mana and go to town with Pulse.

[Fever]

Steve, obviously i agree with you. In fact, even when i cut my Abyss from the maindeck, i always packed one in my sb. However, if you have a good grasp of the metagame you play in and you dont think you will need Abyss at all, then i can see leaving it out of the sidboard. However, like you mentioned, i would make sure to bring it along no matter what.

[Radagast]

The replacement I'm currently using for MisD is Duress, using the logic that all MisD ever counters nowadays are other counters, and very very rarely an Ancestral. Duress does the first part much better, which is the part that matters.

Quote If Rector Trix becomes too much of a problem for control, you better believe I'll be posting on it and you had better hope the DCI does something about it.

If this was intended to be Internet-sarcasm, ignore the next few sentences. Otherwise, haven't we all learned the lesson yet? That lesson being: Modify your deck, and not the restricted list. (Caveat: This is true 99% of the time. The other 1% was Combo Winter. If anyone compares Rector Trix to Combo Winter, I will laugh at them. A lot.)

[Zherbus]

Quote If this was intended to be Internet-sarcasm, ignore the next few sentences. Otherwise, haven't we all learned the lesson yet? That lesson being: Modify your deck, and not the restricted list. (Caveat: This is true 99% of the time. The other 1% was Combo Winter. If anyone compares Rector Trix to Combo Winter, I will laugh at them. A lot.)

What I am saying is that all I hear is how badass Rector Trix is. I can see how and why it does well, but it's not dominating me or anyone else I know. If it ever became a menace (pure combo that can reliably beat control IS a menace), then obviously something needs to be done about it if a few tweaks cannot answer for it.

My impression of Rector Trix as a Keeper player? Not very impressed, but I'm not going to ignore it either. Keeper can't afford to ignore anything.

[Mith]

Has anyone tried out Sacred Ground to counter Smokestack?

[Zherbus]

Mith - Wow, nice. I think that is an excellent foil to Stax should the 'standard' methods fail.

Radagast - The more I think of it, the more I am entertaining the idea of Duress. However, somehow I can't fathom running just one and I hate the idea that its black. ARG. Choices...

[Radagast]

Think of it as spot removal, and as the counterpart to STP -- STP gets rid of (mostly) anything that's a creature, while Duress gets rid of (mostly) anything that's not. No one had a problem running only one STP. Not being blue is a problem if it would otherwise be your only pitchable blue card and you have to counter a creature (otherwise you'd have just Duressed it). It's annoying to be sure, but I doubt it would be a big issue (we have near-ridiculous amounts of blue cards now with both Wishes and Brainstorms).

[Ufactor, the Restricted]

Zherbus- I am thrilled to see your decklist and thoughts on the current metagame.  it's nice to see that you are doing some hardcore representing and haven't embodied, "if you can't beat 'em, join them".*  on that note, what are the other Paragons playing?  please indicate how other Paragon's Keeper Remixes differ.

ShadowLotus, Smmenen, and Spin13- are you all playing Keeper currently?  How do your lists differ?



*this is not mean to flame anyone who has put serious thought and playtesting into creating new decks, but to single out flippant, vintage net-deckers.  thanks.

[Zherbus]

Ufactor, I'd love to share what is the exact contents of the other Paragons decklists, however I have to leave that to them to post it. I will say that our lists are all pretty varied.

SliverKings is by far the most different, I would say. CrazyCarls is somewhat similiar to mine, though we came to some of the same conclusions in a different manner. Azhrei and JP developed Hulk and aren't really touching Keeper right now.

[Smmenen]

Ufactor, I haven't been playing Keeper recently, but I was at testing one at the height of GroAtog.   The deck I presented was done so as an "alternative" to let sit out here in the marketplace of ideas.  

My list looked like this:

4 Waste/Strip
4 Moxen
1 Lotus
1 Sol Ring
5 Fetchland
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria

4 BrainStorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Cunning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll

2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance

2 Morphlings
1 Stroke
1 Gyser
1 Future Sight
1 Fact or Fiction

1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Mind Twist
1 Yawg Will

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will

SB:
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Red Elemental Blasts
1 Abyss
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Shattering Pulse
1 Allay
1 Diabolic Edict
2 COP: REd
1 Ebony Charm
1 D-Blow/ Disenchant/ Aura Fracture, etc

A few comments:
I presented this deck Jan 9th!!!! here:
http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....+keeper

At the time it was a radical build.  But more and more the "standard" keepers have come to look like it.  First of all, I will not cut down on Wastelands.  They are amazing v. GAT and v. Stax and v. Rector Trix.  Additionally, Brainstorms give this deck much needed consistancy.  Mind Twist and Gyser are ridiculously powerful cards.  I can see cutting Stroke or Gyser for another Future Sight in particular metagames, but I wouldn't recommend it.  A topdecked gyser when both decks are running low on hand size after fighting it out is just as good as another FS at establishing yourself.  Furthermore, these aren't really dead cards anymore with the goodness of Brainstorm.

The idea behind the deck was to make Cunning Wish a central focus and via that STP and REB - both incredibly strong cards in the current metagame.  That is the reason to play this deck.   Plaguebearer doesn't really work and cutting shaman is ludicrous.  

In Conclusion, while I presented this origionally as a "radical build" in January, I think it is less radical than Carl and Zherbus' version retaining core elements of Keeper but bolstering itself for the current metagame.  I think also that cutting the buyback spells, Pulse - esp. is an over-reaction.  That card is amazing.  I might cut Ebony Charm for the new Scourge card that costs W and does 1 dmg to all attacking creatures.  But then again, I might not.

Steve Menendian

EDIT:
LOL: looking over the old thread - Fever bugged the living hell out of my asking why I cut Abyss - stating he disagreed .  Interesting.\n\n

[ShadowLotus]

** NOTE:  Smmenen posted right before I did, so many of the comments will be repeats. **

Quote (Ufactor @ the Restricted,May 15 2003,15:31)ShadowLotus, Smmenen, and Spin13- are you all playing Keeper currently?  How do your lists differ?

Yes, I'm still playing Keeper currently, as it's been able to adapt to the new environment rather well, IMO - also, I must've talked about Keeper with rozetta for months until I finally decided on the new build.  Originally, I wasn't going to list what my most-recent build looks like, since I didn't want to fill up this thread with it (and I'm not a Paragon ), but I suppose I can go over each main area that I looked at when updating my Keeper decklist.

So, I suppose I'll start with the manabase I use...

Manabase:

1 Library of Alexandria
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring

The differences aren't too far off what Zherbus runs, except while he is using 2x City of Brass, I've replaced those with the fifth Fetchland and the last Wasteland.  I've loved the configuration thus far, due to the fact that the fifth Fetchland has allowed me to grab the lone Island early when I know I'm facing Blood Moon.dec, and it's always nice having the extra shuffling effect.  In addition, running five Strips has been golden - in a metagame with a total lack of mono-colored decks, as well as a bunch of Mishra's Workshops due to Stax-overload, there are plenty of targets to nail.  Plus, against GAT and Hulk, an opening hand that slows down their mana-development (as well as their Gush card-drawing engines and LD-savers) makes the match-up much easier, since it gives you a turn or two more to set-up, which is huge.  Before in the year, I would have agreed that the full set of Strips would be too much and/or a metagame decision, but nowadays I'm confident with this config when facing a random, unknown competitive metagame.  I've never had color issues with the manabase IRL (which is where I do all my testing); unless, of course, you try it on Apprentice, then it'll definitely fuck you over, so don't come crying to me when that happens. ;p

Counterbase:

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

Keeper isn't monoblue - once you realize that, it makes it easier to drop the random Misdirection from the MD.  Since this deck isn't trying to counter everything an opponent plays, as Keeper is much better at dealing with permanents, then this counterbase is optimal for the most part.  Plus, against other counter-based decks that have a better card drawing engine than Keeper, there's no point in trying to win counter wars against them by overloading a Keeper deck with more counters.  Whenever you run the ninth "counter," such as a Misdirection or basic Counterspell, you'll find that it's more of a random draw, rather than an effective answer.  Sure, Misdirection is strong in the mirror, but who plays those anymore?  Not many, that's for sure.  To add to that, with more and more players running less Misdirectable effects, Misdirection is a lot less powerful than it used to be.  4x Force of Will and 4x Mana Drain have been just as useful, without the randomness or the dead draw that Misdirection used to be.

I also want to add that I play against a lot of Void builds, and not having Misdirection hasn't hurt me all that much, as the Brainstorms and Fetchlands have more than made up for its loss.  Just some food for thought.

Tutors:

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Merchant Scroll

3 Cunning Wish

This is where my build starts to get pretty weird.  I really like Merchant Scroll much more than I used to.  Why?  Not only do I use it rather aggressively to grab Ancestral Recall, but it's great at giving me a Wish (and without the damn card disadvantage).  Sometimes, I use it to tutor for a counter or Fact or Fiction, but that's more a decision based on playstyle and board position, rather than the reasoning for a particular card choice in a build.  Also, it's another awesome shuffling effect, and can give me a Brainstorm if I know I'm going to be hit with discard anytime soon.  Overall, I'm very pleased with them, and will continue to run my Keeper this way until a better idea comes along.

Search/Draw:

4 Brainstorm

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Future Sight

I've gone back-and-forth on the correct amount of Brainstorms to run, but I've finally reached the conclusion that the full set of four is the way to go.  They've really made Keeper fast enough to keep up with the current metagame, as they give you excellent card quality, and they allow the player to search for answers much more effectively than previous Keeper builds provided.  Plus, since I'm crazy about keeping the amount of shuffling effects to the absolute max (I run ten total in the deck, if you count Vampiric Tutor in the sideboard), I'm never sad to draw a Brainstorm in most circumstances - they also won't be cut for anything.

Future Sight has been amazing to me (sorry, Oscar), as well as Skeletal Scrying.  They're a definite improvement, I have to say.

Utility:

2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance

1 Time Walk
1 Mind Twist
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Zuran Orb

... 1x open slot ...

Everything else is basically the same, except for the open slot I have after I cut The Abyss from the MD and moved it back to the sideboard where it belongs.  Even though I used to argue for it staying, since it allows the Keeper maindeck to devote less space to creature removal, it's not as good as it once was.  Obviously, if you see a shitload of random.dec or jank.dec in your metagame, then The Abyss should stay; but if you're in a highly competitive area, where you see many of the top Tier 1 + 2 decks, then it's better in the sideboard.  Once more Keeper players agree that The Abyss doesn't stop some of the best decks in the format currently, then the choice will become less controversial, and more widely accepted.

The open spot changes daily, but usually it's a second Future Sight, which usually works out very well (as I then have a better chance of drawing into it earlier, especially with the Brainstorms).  However, I've been thinking about going ahead and running the fourth Wish, but I'd have to do some extensive testing to make sure I approve of it.  As well, on some days I run the second Skeletal Scrying, which is awesome when I don't expect too much burn-based aggro (or aggro, in general, which isn't so hot, anyway =).  We'll see what I finally decide to run in that last spot permanently.

Plus, I really don't want to go back to maindecking Braingeyser or Stroke of Genius again until the environment shifts again, because with so many GATs running around, it's really difficult getting them to resolve without an opponent Misdirecting them.  To me, it's just too big a risk, especially when Future Sight and Skeletal Scrying get the job done just as well.

Sideboard:

SB:  1 Aura Fracture
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB:  1 Diabolic Edict
SB:  1 Disenchant
SB:  1 Ebony Charm
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Shattering Pulse
SB:  1 Stroke of Genius
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  1 The Abyss
SB:  1 Vampiric Tutor

Not a whole lot to say about my current sideboard, as it's pretty similar to what everyone is running.  Right now, I'm liking Stroke of Genius as a second win condition, as the situation does come up sometimes (plus, I run a second Scrying maindeck in the test slot at times, so it usually works out better).  Vampiric Tutor has made the Wishes a lot better, as it's another great EOT threat to grab whatever I need from my MD at instant speed.  As well, I've a huge fan of Disenchant over Allay, and would love to find space for the second one again (I might cut The Abyss totally, but that won't be for a while).  Overall, it just reflects what I usually see in my environment, and so it should be taken as such.  Plaguebearer never worked for me, either, so there's nothing tech in the 'board.

Those are my present thoughts on Keeper in general, Ufactor.  Add two Morphlings to everything I listed, as well as something in the test slot, and you have what I'm currently running in today's environment.  I like it, but I'm sure I'll be changing it within the next few weeks to handle whatever new deck that always seems to come along. )

[CrazyCarl]

Well, I hereby present you:  CrazyCarl Keeper 2K3

NotFollowingTheLeaderAnymore. dec

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Future Sight
2 Morphling
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Time Walk

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mind Twist
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Skeletal Scrying

2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance

1 Gorilla Shaman

1 Fire/Ice

1 Zuran Orb

1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
2 City of Brass
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Island

SB:
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Plaguebearer
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Coffin Purge
1 Shattering Pulse
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Circle of Protection Red
2 Disenchant
1 Aura Fracture(May become Celestial Dawn)

I came to the same conclusions as many(though it took me longer to make the changes because I wasn't playing as much Magic):

The Abyss and Misdirection just aren't as good as they used to be.

The amount of search these new versions of Keeper are packing are just ABSURD!  3 Wishes, 4 Brainstorms, Ancestral, FOF, 2-3 Tutors(between MD and sideboard), Scrying, plus Fetches to smooth out mana.  The deck is sooooooo consistant now.  Anyways, for the weird stuff:

Coffin Purge: Something I plan on trying out.  The way the TnT matchup would normally go, is they'd do their thang, I'd try to stop it.  They'd go for Anger and Squee(all they need to keep up the pressure), I'd get a Charm and nuke them and something else, then they'd get Genesis, or have Memory Jar going, and I'd either win then, or eventually lose to the card advantage.  Coffin Purge lets you get back your graveyard removal after you use it the first time.  However, this costs 2 mana to use right away(To get Squee and Anger), then costs an additional 3 to be able to use again(the Wish).

3rd Cunning Wish: I love it.  I thought I'd feel flooded, but I really LOVE drawing Cunning Wish.

2 Disenchant: Oh yeah, love it, love it, love it.  Against Stax and beyond, they're just sooooo good.  The original, and still the greatest(in my heart anyways).

4 Brainstorm: If you aren't playing 4, then that's bad.  It's the card that let's Keeper keep up with the rest of the metagame.

[Mith]

CrazyCarl: Does the 4th Brainstorm really let you get away with running only 26 mana sources?

Also, has Gorilla Shaman been pulling his weight for you? Aside from the rare mirror match, he's been a pretty dead draw for me most of the time.

[Smmenen]

Quote (CrazyCarl @ May 15 2003,19:01)3rd Cunning Wish: I love it.  I thought I'd feel flooded, but I really LOVE drawing Cunning Wish.

Of course.  Now you need to play 4 and add one fetchland.  How good are fetchlands with Future Sight?

Keeper has been adding one Wish about every three months since it was released.  Isn't it time to go to four?  Isn't this deck about having STP and REB?  Let's be honest.   Isn't REB the most busted counterbackup for mind twist evar?

Steve\n\n

[kl0wn]

Ah, I see that people are now going up to 2 Future Sights. Good stuff.

Next, you diehard Keeper players need to squeeze Sacred Ground into the SB. Then it'll be all good.

[Maxx Matt]

the choice to keep the shaman maindeck is golden not only when you  mirror match everyday...

think about the horde of artifact deck, stax or tnt or "prison's one" or whatever you want... if you have it in play you can easily stop their fast mana development and stop their great permanents superiority...

i have a metagame that shifted fast to a mixture of Tog, Mask, TnT, Lock&Stock, Trix (rector trix and mutlicolored trix without rector....)... and every time i draw "Monkey!!!" i'msure to create problems to my opponents.

it is not so useful only in the Tog matchup where his solomoxen count is too low to  produce a solid mana denial effect using it  and due to the fact that after using the boring "land mox driad!!!" usually the tog player can get rid himself of his own moxes ...


@smemmens: love and pain!!! the most boring think playing keeper is to topdeck land when you are plenty of it is boring not to develop enough mana land dropping every turn, expecially  in the first 5 or 6 turns. i don't know if your mana configration let you to play land ( not fecthland... i say Land!!!  ) safely...

void, PT funk, monoblack, ankhsligh, even Smemmen's monoblu build and other keepereskue decks aren't desapperared from the field...

if i would face one of them with that mana count ( based on the great sinergy of fetchland+brainstorm ) i would fear as death "every" land destruction effect that the opponent could play against me...

Yours seems the most painful to play, but the most interesting due to his extreme nature.

i don't know if i would cut entirely an "ass saver" as zorb from the deck or lose to color screw if my opponent follow the bad path of "strip, waste, waste, win!!!"

Also, playing 5fetch, vampiric and Fow maindeck without zorb, potentially rise the total count of auto-damages to 12 , lowering your possibilities to survive "one turn more"...


so i think, IMO, that:
- Vamp must be sent to the side ( perhaps doing room for the 3° underground... ) .
-Long life to MOnkey and Geyser maindeck
- in a not so "avanguarded metagame" ( where you can face a good mixture of good new deck and "good 6moth's ago"decks ) zorb must be maindecked.
-i think that 4 wish maindeck will be the staple configuration in any "keepereskue" deck if stax and Tog will continue to rule the metagame...


@paragon team: this mana configuration, in the current PAragon build, seems to me the most solid assembled for this deck! good work!!!

related note: if you don't face a lot of Dreadnaughts and Mishra Factory, would you keep Plaguebearer in the side?
i try it a lot and realize that it is very very effective only in those match up and only against those specific creatures...

sligh burn it too fast and too heavy to protect it and monoblack creatures, driads and Tog costs too much to be destroyed with it... what do you think?

i hope that it is in the side for MightyRooootwaaallas... or not??

thanks in advance

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Maxx Matt
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PS :@crazy carl: i know that it could be considered strictly a metagamed choice but i think that my side will ever see both aura fracture AND celestial dawn... i always see to many Blast!!!, too many Blood Moon!!!, to many non basic hosers that come out from the side of the enemy aggro player!!!
they are there only for Togs... but hurt a lot even the poor keeper player!

i would cut a disenchant or the plaguebearer if i would add it in the current configuration of your side...

[CrazyCarl]

Quote (Mith @ May 15 2003,20:02)CrazyCarl: Does the 4th Brainstorm really let you get away with running only 26 mana sources?

Also, has Gorilla Shaman been pulling his weight for you? Aside from the rare mirror match, he's been a pretty dead draw for me most of the time.

Yes and Yes.  The second yes mainly because of Stax, but it's still OK against TnT sometimes.  Plus it munches on Ankhs and Scrolls which is nice.

[SliverKing]

Quote (Zherbus @ May 15 2003,15:36)Ufactor, I'd love to share what is the exact contents of the other Paragons decklists, however I have to leave that to them to post it. I will say that our lists are all pretty varied.

SliverKings is by far the most different, I would say. CrazyCarls is somewhat similiar to mine, though we came to some of the same conclusions in a different manner. Azhrei and JP developed Hulk and aren't really touching Keeper right now.

My keeper is definetly the most radically changed. I've tried several very very different builds recently, in an effort to address the metagame a little better and streamline the deck as much as possible.
Like any experiment though, there are plenty of failures for every success so I asked the Paragons to not mention any of my changes until I can weed out the jank.  As I am trying a whole lot of stuff... that may take a while.

[Rakso]

Slight note... Swords to Plowshares is shit against Academy Rector because it usually gets sacced to Cabal Therapy nowadays.

Remember the old can you Bolt the Goblin to counter Goblin Grenade question?