Paragon Keeper 2003 (Zherbus Remix)

[Dreisgen]

I never removed timetwister from my keeper deck


1. Read the rules of this forum.
2. Twister is only as viable as the metagame lets it be, which means that before this recent development in the metagame, you ran a very risky and conditional card.

-Zherbus

[Toast]

meh...I would have thought the ability to stifle a first turn fetchland against combo would be much more devastating than duress because brainstorm negates (more or less) duress which sucks.

Also I agree that timetwister is a nessessity if you are using trenches as kill, but I don't know if I like trench kill against anything other than stax. It seems like a card that is strictly worse (than morphling)  because it is targetable, can't fly contains two off colors, and uses your most precious resource as fuel. It makes keeper easy to hate out. It seems like your modifications will make you have a rough time against any deck that still runs naturalize or powder keg and you will auto lose (short of decking them/ shaman beats) to a well timed extract.

[Fishhead]

Quote meh...I would have thought the ability to stifle a first turn fetchland against combo would be much more devastating than duress because brainstorm negates (more or less) duress which sucks.

After playtesting more tonite with Stifley Keeper, Duress is just clearly better against the field.  Stifle might be good enough if you expect all Trix and Storm decks, but overall it doesn't hold up.  

Stepping back and looking at it, Stifle is best in the early game when it can hose a Fetchy.  After two land are on the table though, the value of that tactic drops precipitously and you have to move on to Plan B.  Taking a look at Plan B:

In the control matchups, Plan B is pretty weak, there arent enough decent Stifle targets - you almost always wish that you had drawn a Duress.  (After watching me play a Keeper mirror against a deck that started with 4 Duress and brought in 3-4 ReB for game 2&3 an onlooker said, "Looking at the Stifles in your hand, I think they are not a good card.")  OK, so that covers that subject.

In some combo matchups the Stifles are potentially strong, but Duress is pretty darn good here too.  Stifle ends up being reactive, while Duress buys the control player valuable information.  Toast makes a good point about the Brainstorm, but early Duresses (the kind that matters most against Combo) will still have a good selection of cards - even if the Combo opponent went first and had the Brainstorm in hand.  

Against Aggro I give the edge to Duress, though neither of these cards is likely staying in for Games 2 & 3.  Its nice to Stifle a Wasteland against MonoB, but its also nice to Duress a Necro before they can use it.  I'd rather Duress an Ankh than Stifle a Cursed Scroll etc etc.  Edge Duress.

[CrazyCarl]

Quote (Toast @ July 18 2003,17:49)Also I agree that timetwister is a nessessity if you are using trenches as kill, but I don't know if I like trench kill against anything other than stax. It seems like a card that is strictly worse (than morphling)  because it is targetable, can't fly contains two off colors, and uses your most precious resource as fuel. It makes keeper easy to hate out. It seems like your modifications will make you have a rough time against any deck that still runs naturalize or powder keg and you will auto lose (short of decking them/ shaman beats) to a well timed extract.

If they're boarding in Naturalize to deal with my win condition, that's great.  I won't be dropping it until I Mind Twist them.  So I'm actually gaining card advantage for every disenchant they draw(in the same way your opponent gets card advantage for every Plow you draw when playing against a creatureless deck).

Fishhead: I wanted to ask you in the tournament report thread, but it got closed, so here's fine: How was Trenches?

Everyone: I've come to the(sad) conclusion that Stifle doesn't belong MD.  One in the board is a must though.

Also, against many of these Tendrils decks, countering Dark Ritual is VERY important.

[Toast]

@ carl

what if I TD the naturalize after you have played trenches/counter your mind twist etc.

are you saying that just because you have a solution to a card the card instantly becomes useless?

extract destroys the trench strat if it is played in a deck with enough disruption/countermagic to back it up

powder keg isn't useless just because you can wish for a disenchant...you still have to waste a wish on it.

morphling has a much narrower field of cards to screw it over which is why I find it to be superior. One of the main arguments supporting the trenches was it is not a dead card because you can play it any time...if you are always going to mindtwist before playing it then it becomes just as dead as morphling until that point.

[theorigamist]

Toast, using your same argument, if somebody drops a Morphling you could just topdeck Diabolic Edict and fuck them over.  The fact is, there is removal for anything.  It's not necessarily a wider selection for Trenches, because people are prepared to face Morphling, too.  But either Morphling or Trenches after a Twist, and backed by card drawing and counters and Duresses and the rest of the Keeper list, is going to be a good win condition.

So my conclusion is that Trenches > Morphling, because my origami soldier tokens are the shit.

[Toast]

viable cards to run for morphling fuck are diabolic edict and balance IMO. this restricts morphling fuck to reactive decks that run black or white (Keeper, Hulk, Trix/Tendrils) Trenches however is susceptable to naturalize (TnT), Keg (URphid), and extract/rootwater thieves (fish) in addition to balance (Keeper, Hulk w/ white, Trix/Tendrils)

More of the field can now easily deal with the keeper kill condition which allows for many more nail-biting matchups.

I unfortunately can not think of any rebut to the origami soldier tokens because they are far too cool not to run trenches for....but if you don't have origami tokens I think morphling is your best bet.

[theorigamist]

There is obviously more to consider than just removal.  Morphling can be chumped much more easily than 4 Soldier tokens can.  The tokens also keep coming out after a Balance or something, so that shouldn't really count as removal for Trenches.  Also, don't forget that (referring to Carl's list) blue sources came out for extra Wastelands.  Extract and Rootwater Thieves can get Morphlings also, so that's hardly a valid argument.

So really, the removal for Morphling is Diabolic Edicts, Balance, Extract and Rootwater Thief.  And the removal for Trenches is Naturalize, Disenchant, Extract and Rootwater Thief.  Keg isn't really removal for Trenches, because you can then make more.  And then you have to take into account that Trenches costs two less.  Even if you wait until you've Mind Twisted the opponent's hand away, you still will have two more (two more blue, I might add, because you didn't spend it to cast the Trenches) than if you had cast a Morphling.

[Zherbus]

Quote (Toast @ July 19 2003,13:22)@ carl

what if I TD the naturalize after you have played trenches/counter your mind twist etc.

are you saying that just because you have a solution to a card the card instantly becomes useless?

Then you should still be able to win with any amount of 1/1 tokens you have created. Normally, when Trenches hits you can get 2-4 Goblin Dudes out and whether or not the Trenches stays around after that is besides the point.

Quote viable cards to run for morphling fuck are diabolic edict and balance IMO. this restricts morphling fuck to reactive decks that run black or white (Keeper, Hulk, Trix/Tendrils) Trenches however is susceptable to naturalize (TnT), Keg (URphid), and extract/rootwater thieves (fish) in addition to balance (Keeper, Hulk w/ white, Trix/Tendrils)

TnT can get around a Morphling just by having something bigger (Collosus, Trike). URPhid can build a Keg up or just play a Morphling of its own. Balance kills Morphling too. Hulk ignores Morphling because it just sends over a massive Berserked Tog. The only thing left, that you've mentioned, is Fish, which is a rarity for reasons we don't need to get into here.

So...Trenches is bad because some people somewhere might run Extract?

Quote meh...I would have thought the ability to stifle a first turn fetchland against combo would be much more devastating than duress because brainstorm negates (more or less) duress which sucks.

Stifle is nifty for nabbing Fetchies, but you have enough mana disruption with 5 Strips and 2 Shamans. Duress gives you the ability to attack another angle. Stifle is great versus storm, but they have to be in a position to go off and thats why I run it in the board for a Wish target.

It'll be ripped early game since you are just holding it like a moron waiting for them instead of being aggressive and trying to get control of the game by taking key cards from the combo players hand. In short, the Stifle in the SB is there for 2 reasons - 1) when all else fails and they are just going to try and storm you out anyways and 2) to make Cunning Wish a must counter/duress in addition to the potent arsenal you should already have.

[Toast]

Quote Then you should still be able to win with any amount of 1/1 tokens you have created. Normally, when Trenches hits you can get 2-4 Goblin Dudes out and whether or not the Trenches stays around after that is besides the point.

ah...that was what I was missing

I do think keg becomes more useful though as it is unrealistic(although possible), to build up a keg to 5.

I see why people think trenches are better now...I am not sure if I have bought into it 100 percent yet but at least I find it to be reasonable.

About stifle I realize that it is a reactive card and therefore is generally bad to MD vs. the new combo because combo usually destroys your hand pretty quickly. I guess I just thought that the matchup was grim enough for control that it needed to MD the hate. I guess I was wrong if you guys have been having a lot of success with duress.

I'll just stick with my TnT which I have teched out to beat combo a fair amount. ph34r m3h l33t TnT 1t's c0m1n' s00n.

[Fever]

Just to make things clear, whether you run Trenches, Morphling, or even Masticore as your lone win condition, they are all equally vulnerable to Extract. However, what decks have so much room in their sideboards that they can fit in a couple of Extracts? The card is so conditional and so bad against most of the field that i cant imagine running one. Dont try to tell me its good against combo, because even if you manage to resolve one early and nab Bargain, they still have the original: Necropotence.

I love Carl's last build, its really good, but i will not be sold on Trenches until i have tested it. I can see the merits of it, but i cant say for sure without solid evidence.

[Lord of the Goats]

this is kinda off topic, but if i recall correctly, there was quite a bit of debate over what life gain slot to use in keeper. i believe zorb won out because it was better with future sight. anyway, i see that no one runs that life gain slot anymore so this is a bit of a moot point... however should that slot be needed again in the future i think i found a reasonable solution.

reaping the rewards
w
instant
gain 2 life. buyback: sac a land

so as you see, it's a wishable zuran orb... sort of.

[Fishhead]

Quote Fishhead: I wanted to ask you in the tournament report thread, but it got closed, so here's fine: How was Trenches?

You should know how good it was!    

Well, it was pretty good.  I compared it to Masticore earlier, I think I like it better in the straight Aggro matchups (which my first 3 rounds were - RG speed, BG Void, Goblins).  Just make some guys and start chumping; then make some guys and start swinging.  A lot of times I was swinging for 8 or so; its a fast clock once it gets going.  "I make 2 EoT.  I make 4 EoT.  I make 4 EoT."  It's obviously not as good against Utility like Welders.  Better against Rectors though.  

My biggest fear actually was the fear of going down to such a small number of win conditions.  I see Extract being pooh-poohed in this thread, but tell me that if two strong decks (Trix & Keeper) run only two win conditions (Donates!  Not the Bargain, take the Donates!) that people won't start packing Extract.  Consider also that DuckTape runs very few win conditions.  

I think the comment that someone made about Jesters Cap suddenly being good in the environment is true.  Before, Cap wasn't fast enough or applicable enough to consider running the necessary 4 in a TnT, Ducktape or MUD sideboard.  But now it might be worth carving out the room.  And if that happens, I think that Keeper has to reconsider having a Stroke somewhere just to have a indestructable win condition.  Trenches or whatever is fine as your main plan; its just that people will have to be prepared to deal with Extracts and Caps.  Because they will happen.

[Toast]

I was looking at the win condition breakdown like this:

phling/phling

pling/core

trenches/twister


I think with 2 win conditions extract is not worth running but the trenches builds I have seen only run 1 trenches which makes extract a lot better.

@fever have you ever really seen a combo deck "go off" with a necropotence, for the most part I have seen them use it to get out a bargain...I did see a combo deck try to go off with necropotence before...it is like watching a one legged man in an ass kicking contest. I guess they could go down to 1 keep whatever mox/draw they got and hope they could play 10 spells the next turn but it is nowhere near as efficient.

I still don't think I would run extract vs. combo but for different reasons.

[Zherbus]

@Lord of the Goats: That is a nice card which should see play assuming Sligh picks up, which may only happen after control keeps combo to a minimum.

@Fishhead and Toast: Another option is to simply sideboard a a Flaming Gambit. If you fear Extract effects, they will have to grab all of your Cunning Wishes as well.

@Toast: I've seen Rector Trix go off with Necro just fine. It was a little crippling, but it did the trick just fine. That is pretty much off topic, so we will leave it at that.

[MoreFling]

Although this might not belong here, did anyone test the new Angel Decree? I think I overheard someone mentioning it as a possible good kill condition, and I have to say I like it.

Eot, you can creature a few men and draw a card to boot, next to being uncounterable (ok, ok, it's stifle-able )
Or you can drain into a few angels.

It seems to fit into the deck, and might be more useful then Trenches is, although a tad more vulnarable to Stifle, especially if that becomes more popular. Has anyone actually tried it yet?

[BillTheDuck]

I've been doing quite a bit of testing with keeper over the past week and I just wanted to let people know (if they care at all) that I have been very impressed with Decree of Justice. The kill has always been smooth and not hard to accomplish, and the double use makes it more flexible. It won me a few games in the control mirror and the tog matchup where I had 2 cards in hand (this and something else) and he had a full hand of counters. End of his turn I cycle for 5 and he tries to counter it. He had control, I would never have resolved a spell the rest of that game. Having two real win conditions (I ran one trenches as well) makes twister less needed because its harder for them to duress both, and stop will. Also if you don't need it you just cycle it regularly (and maybe get a guy or two as a bonus) eot just for the card.

[Vegeta2711]

So once again the Weissman thoughts of mana denial in here come to light. And it only took a few years... lol. Any chance of Dwarven Miner coming back too?  

Oh and Decree of Justice is annoying as hell, uncounterable kill conditions are not fun in control mirrors.  The thing seems to fit well since it can be cycled away if not needed, provides an uncounterable kill condition and can drop the beef if need be.

[Zherbus]

Decree is a perfectly fine win condition, but I don't see it being any better than Trenches outside of the Cycle ability. I use Trenches because I can just keep puking out dudes long after the initial rush. Spot removal and blockers tend to wear out your Decree men, but with Trenches you just make more and keep on truckin'.

Speaking from the otherside of the table in the mirror or Hulk matchup, Decree is often rushed out since they fear Duress and the few little guys it makes never make it all the way.

[urza's child]

im gonna be running this in a local tourny next week, i have some playing experience with it but i dont know how to sideboard. Its mainly a random aggro filled environment, no combo, with 1 bbs and occasionally 1 keeper player. Heres my list as of now:

//  Counter Magic
    2 Duress
    4 Force of Will
    4 Mana Drain
//  Kill
    1 Goblin Trenches
    1 Masticore
//  Broken Utility/Card Draw
    1 Time Walk *
    1 Future Sight
    1 Fact or Fiction
    1 Ancestral Recall *
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Zuran Orb
    1 Library of Alexandria
//  Tutor/Search
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Cunning Wish
    1 Merchant Scroll
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Mystical Tutor
//  Bullet
    3 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Balance
    1 Mind Twist
//  SoLoMoxen
    1 Mox Jet *
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Ruby *
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Black Lotus *
    1 Sol Ring
//  Land
    1 Strip Mine
    3 Wasteland
    1 City of Brass
    1 Island
    3 Tundra
    3 Volcanic Island
    2 Flooded Strand
    3 Polluted Delta
    3 Underground Sea
SB:  4 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB:  1 Stifle
SB:  1 Coffin Purge
SB:  1 Aura Fracture
SB:  1 Skeletal Scrying
SB:  1 Vampiric Tutor
SB:  1 Gush
SB:  1 Disenchant
SB:  1 Shattering Pulse
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares

i run zorb because of all the random aggro. I wish i could run the abyss but I dont have

a. room for it
b. the card (or a proxy space)

can someone really help me with sideboarding for decks like:

mirror
sligh
sui
mono green stompy
WW
random.dec
bbs

I'd really appreciate it, thanks

[Fever]

I understand you want Zorb because you see a lot of aggro, but i dont think you can reasonably run both Trenches and Zorb in the same deck, not to mention the fact that they both serve similar functions against fast aggro. If you start saccing your land to Zorb in order to buy you time, and then topdeck a Trenches... its gonna look really bad sitting in your hand. I think that with Trenches and Masticore maindeck, you shouldnt really need the Zorb at all, but if you really want another anti-aggro card you could always run a Keg in that slot.

However, i notice that you cut the Scrying slot altogether in your decklist, presumably for the Zorb. I think you need a minimum number of card drawing in the deck and i would advise you to find a suitable replacement for your metagame. Possible solutions could be a Stroke or a second Future Sight. The fact that you are running both Trenches and Masticore only hightens your need for drawing in my opinion, so i think more draw would be the best way to go for that slot.

[urza's child]

thanks for the help fever, i think ill cut the zorb and put in a second FS (IMO scrying in an aggro environment = faster loss)

Still need help sideboarding though :-/

[PhOeNiX]

I've done the same, Nick.

There's just too much aggro in my metagame to run Skeletal Scrying. It had to be cut. There was only one card that could fill the card drawing void: Future Sight, and the second Sight has just been great! As much as I loved Skeletal Scrying when I was up against control, Future Sight is just a HOUSE all around. Besides, Skeletal Scrying is still accessable in the sideboard through Cunning Wish.

Perhaps you should try out one Powder Keg main in place of one of the Swords to Plowshares. Cunning Wish for Vampiric to nab a Keg against Sligh, Stompy, and White Weenie (and what ever randomness you need it for) can be absolutely devastating. You would still have the two Swords to Plowshares in the sideboard if you tweak with the board a bit, so you can still bring in the third Swords in those matchups and still have the fourth there for some Cunning Wish action.

[Zherbus]

Closed. It lost its former glory and needs a new thread.