Stacks Primer (Part 1 of 2)

[David Hernandez]

LOL, hey smmenen...

i had to laugh to myself (in a good way) when i read what you said:

Quote I _really_ like Lotus Petal.

I read it almost as "read my lips: RUN THE PETAL".

heheh.

ok.  Based on your and Toad's comments, I'll Drop a Karn and add the Petal.  29 mana sources--wow!

@Toad and Smmenen: Naturalize and Art. Mutation are a real pain.  I know you guys didn't like my Mana Leaks in the main, but what do you think about 2 in the side?

--dave.

[Thug]

Quote sorry if i came across as having an attitude.  That certainly was not my intention.

I'm sorry if I reacted a little too emotional, that wasn't my intention either  

Quote I've been running 4 Red Elemental Blast since then, but the worst threats you'll have to face (counters excepted) are not blue. Naturalize, Swords to Plowshares, Smother, Artifact Mutation, etc... are all worse than a counter effect. I'm considering dropping a couple of them for more polyvalent solutions.  My sideboard is changing almost every day in order to adapt the deck to July's metagame.

I share your opinion here, REB seems to be usefull in less and less matchups, and I don't think the full 4 are needed anymore. But what to add to the sidebaord stays pretty open for me, at least until I get a better look at the metagame.

Quote Once again, great build. I've goldfished it a couple of times yesterday evening, it's really strong and consistent, even if a little bit slower than our, imho.

Glad to hear that, and it's true that's it's a little slower, but I can live with that.

Quote Windfall is probably the most controversial card in our build, along with the Mox Diamond. I prefectly understand why you don't run it, as it's somehow situational. Could you give me additionnal thoughts about your Mystical Tutor ? I've tried it for a little while, but I found that getting a draw7 or a Meditate was not worth the tempo loss and the tremendous card disadvantage.

I can imagine running windfall and mox diamond, but that means going a little more on the comboish tour. Adding Windfall in my build really doesnt pay off in my opinion, since I got less cheap mana (as in lotus petal, diamond)

I really like mystical tutor, and the card disadvantage doesn't really seem to hurt, because most of the time you will be getting a card that will get you card advantage. Against control it's not really amazing, so then I sideboard it out alot. Lately I have been using Mystical to get Tinker a lot, this chain can give you great answers to certain threats, still at a very low cost. I'm not 100% on it yet, but it's sure worth trying in my opinion.

I have another question for you guys, don't you ever get manascrewed? since your landcount in notably lower than mine: 17 vs 20/21. Although I run wastelands, which can also be counted as disruption and less like mana-sources. But 17 seems so low to me. I might be totally wrong since I haven't tested with your version yet, but I sure will,

Koen,

EDIT: what is the BLoodstained Mire doing in there, it can't fetch the basic island... running a swamp sb??

[Toad]

Quote (Thug @ July 03 2003,06:54)

Quote I have another question for you guys, don't you ever get manascrewed? since your landcount in notably lower than mine: 17 vs 20/21. Although I run wastelands, which can also be counted as disruption and less like mana-sources. But 17 seems so low to me. I might be totally wrong since I haven't tested with your version yet, but I sure will.

As you mentionned previously, we've chosen to run the deck as a combo deck. Low land count, all the 12 mana artifacts. You sometimes get manascrewed, but not really more than with any other deck. Manascrews happen, but not that much. Our build can't work without it's non broken lands for colored mana, but it mostly relies on fast mana, with the 5 broken lands and the artifacts. That's why we run only 17 lands. If I could afford to run less, I would. But 17 is fine. And you'll note that we run 16 mana producing lands (not counting the Strip Mine), which is what you are playing too (not counting Wastelands and Strip again).

Quote What is the Bloodstained Mire doing in there, it can't fetch the basic island... running a swamp sb??

No, we don't run a Swamp SB. 4 Polluted Delta is a logical inclusion, since it can get every single land we have in the deck. We wanted a 5th one, and we had the choice between Bloodstained Mire (can't get the basic Island) or Flooded Strand (can't get the Badlands). Early game, you want to cast your Welders before your Draw7 and Meditate, and that's why we wanted our 5th fetchland to fetch for mountains over islands. Hence, the Bloodstained Mire.

Matt.

[David Hernandez]

@Thug: I run Bloodstained Mire because my "Stax_Remix" build uses a Basic Mountain, 2 Badlands, and 1 Underground Sea.  Mire allows me to get any color in my deck.

I haven't had any trouble with my mana base at all.  I'm running 28 sources and the deck is explosive.

I'm going to try the $T4KS single Karn and Lotus Petal, which will take me to 29 sources (which concerns me a little, but they've had success with it).  

I have been very pleased with my deck's tournament performance.  Had i not made a key mistake in the match where i had a draw, i might have been undefeated going into round 6.  

the error i made was that i stacked the opponent's upkeep incorrectly with my smokestacks and tanglewires.  I should have stacked it so that he had to sac 3 permanents FIRST, and then tap 3 items. It cost me the second game, and there was no time to finish the 3rd game.

Live and learn.

EDIT TO AVOID DOUBLE POSTING:

Ok, i've spent the last 6 hours testing a single Karn and a Lotus Petal.  I've tried the Mox Diamond as well, and I tried your mana base.

Here is my initial opinion:

The Single Karn and Lotus Petal work well and I will run it this way for testing purposes.

I don't like the Mox Diamond. I tried it in my build as well, but found that i didn't have any problems getting the right colors because of my Badlands/Underground/Mox/Lotus.  Yes, there were a couple of times that i could play the Diamond on turn one, but it wasn't as consistent enough to convince me during initial testing.  You guys ran it longer than i did, so i will continue to test with it, but for tournaments, i will currently not run it.

Also, I think you should try out my mana base, as it is working more consistently for me than yours did.  I still live in an area that runs B2B Main Deck by several Gro/Oath players, so I will keep my basic Mountain as well. If B2B is not an issue in your area, swap the mountain for something else (including possibly the Mox Diamond).

BTW, this is great.  I think we really do have a build that works against the field in a big way.  The very minor differences in our builds are almost just local metagame dependant and playstyle choices.

Dave.

ANOTHER EDIT:

Ok, i've been testing the above cards every day for a week.

After testing, I have removed the Lotus Petal and have added a second Triskelion to the main deck instead.  I'm running the single Karn, and I am running my version of the mana base. I've dropped the basic mountain in favor of a 3rd Badlands, and I added 1 Lim Dul's Vault in the Windfall slot.  I also pulled the Time Vault and added a Jester's Cap to the main deck.  

It's devastating.


Edit: here is a report from August 2nd at Frank & Sons in Los Angeles (19 people showed for sancitioned). http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....76;st=0

--Dave.\n\n